MacIntosh c12000 preamp - Can not tell a difference between tube and solid state sound

Modern Mac tube gear doesn't sound very tubey it just sound neutral that's why.

That makes sense because I thought it sounded really flat on my Yamaha as 3200 amp. But when I heard it paired with a moon audio 761 at the store, it sounded really good. But yet if I use Yamaha 2000a as a preamp to the my Yamaha AS 3200, then that sounds really good....way  better than the c12000 paired with the as 3200. Why is that?

Is your “2000a” an N-R2000A?  Is YPAO engaged?

Also of note Mac uses JJ tesla tubes from the factory, upgrading your tube will help. 

 ypao is turned off

Why do the tubes used by McIntosh suck?  Everybody wants to change out tubes as soon as they buy the Products.

Why doesn't McIntosh sell better tubes if they're too cheap to install them with the products they sell?

Match the tube preamp with an amp that gives you the sound you're looking for, and you're problem is solved.  Happy listening 

I'm happy you posted this question!  I have the same experience with my Peachtree 220SE.  Based on the advice above I think I will try swapping the preamp tube. 

The yamaha pre amp and amp have the correct synergy ie gain that matches together.true you could change tube's to find your sound that's tube rolling and alot of audiophile enjoy that. It's hard to do with solid state cuz you can't just change transistors. I have the macintosh pre amp and run it in the tube mode with several amps including 2 kw. If you read the review on the Mac 12000 pre it states one of the best they tested. Because it's such low distortion it may not have the huge tube sound people are use to.the pre amp and amp need correct gain,impedance, ect for great sound. Enjoy the search.

Tube products have soft clipping and roll the top end of the wave for that famous tube sound.enjoy the music

The C12000 stock tubes generally have a very neutral tonality - not the typical 'tube lushness' you get from the likes of Audio Research -as example, which is renowed for their 'holographic and spatial 3D imaging' - tuby sound.

However, the C12000 does respond extremely well when tubes are rolled with well chosen alternatives. This is where you need to determine what type of tube sound you prefer, and then source accordingly.

I have the following tubes in my C12000:

•    4 x Siemens E81CC ECC801S Matched Quad - Munich '68 - Same code - NOS+ (2 per channel)
•    2 x 12AX7 Telefunken / Leeds & Northrup, Tektronix, Red Tip, SELECTED TUBE label, very rare medical equipment grade smooth plate, red-tipped, diamond mark MATCHED PAIR (1 per channel)

The 12AX7 on the input stage has the first and biggest impact on the tonality you achieve in the C12000. I selected the Red Tip Telefunkens as they are extremely precise, with an ultra-low noise floor.  The 2 x 12AT7/E81CC per channel is key to the final output variation of the tube sound. The Siemens tubes I chose, remain articulate, but slightly more warm than the Telefunkens, also providing a greater level of spatial imaging. If you are looking for a warmer, more lush sound, you might consider alternatives such as Mullard Bugle Boy or Amperex. 

If you use the C12000 phono stage, you might consider rolling the tubes on the phono stages as well.  I am currently waiting for 4 x 12AX7 Mullard LONGPLATE, medical grade "red tip" SQUARE getter, 1950s date codes, to become available for the phono stage. This will be a very warm, more analogue, 'tube lushness' before it blends with the precise imaging of the line stage tubes.
 

Great answered that were looking for.where do you find your tubes?

I source my tubes mainly through Brent Jessee from audiotubes.com. He is extremely knowledgeable and holds stock of great quality and varfiety of top-tier, true NOS tubes.

An alternative source is Soundlumia, even though they might not always have stock available, and I make a point to check their pricing before buying anything from them - they can be slightly overpriced at times.

General tube rule: dont buy from ebay or 'unknown' suppliers as there are many fakes and scammers in this world.

Hope this helps!

Good to know time to start tube rolling.thx

Interesting question. I recommend doing this. Put the toggle in one position... tube or solid state. Forget about your system. Listen to music (not the system) for a couple of weeks. Then flip the switch. Don’t sit down to see if you can hear a difference... just listen to music for a couple weeks. Then flip back. 

If musical presentation is generally similar, it can be difficult to instantly tell the difference when doing an A/B. But long term, in music, it can be profound. I look at it like this... let’s say that a system can produce 100,000 different sounds (it’s in the millions I am sure). In listening for a minute you are only going to hear, say, 100 sounds... and your minds eye may be only focused on a few of those... say the drum and guitar. But long term you are exposed to thousands of sounds and the gestalt. There can be big and profound differences.