Lumin U2 mini vs Mac laptop sound test

Gotta admit I’m scratching my head over this one, but goodonya for trying it and trusting your ears.

@soix 

Me too!!  That is why I had a friend listen for a diff blind.  

Have you heard a significant diff in streamers?

JH

@johnah5 ,  

By chance, what software and setup are you running on your Mac Air?

@sandstone 

Ventura 13.3.1

I left all the open programs running on the mac.  Never shut anything down and there was a setting when you are in tidal and switch output on the icon to stream from the mac.  I clicked "more settings" and selected let tidal control volume 

This is confusing to me and I feel like I spent money on the U2 mini when a Blue Sound Node would have worked for much less money??

@johnah5 

What I find interesting is that you didn’t mention having to adjust volume when switching between USB and AES during your test. Do you remember having to make adjustments to match the differences in output levels or is just that there weren’t any differences?

I also have a Lumin U2 Mini which is output via AES into an Aqua La Scala Optologic dac. While I haven’t compared the differences between my MacBook Pro and the Lumin while streaming the same service I do know there is a huge difference when using the Lumin to stream local files (NAS) as opposed to playing local files directly through the dac via SPDIF.

Honestly I’m with you when it comes to the value considerations of Uber expensive streamers. As I only stream for auditioning music to purchase I find the Lumin U2 Mini to be a very good device. I previously had used a Sonos Connect and the Lumin definitely provided a few steps up in sound quality. While I have no explanations for the results of your comparison I wouldn’t be bummed out about the purchase.

I replaced the new Node with a U2 mini and heard quite a difference.  The highs are clear and pure, there’s less grain and focus is much better. Put another way, The Node sounds grainy, unfocused and a bit shrill compared to the mini.  I recently put them side by side, each with an Sbooster, and reverified.  Don’t get me wrong, I keep the Node for another system because it’s a fun listen.  
Tidal/FLAC radio> U2 mini/ Node > Audio Mirror IV DAC > Luxman  L-505uxii > AZ Crescendo 2.

@designsfx 

The volume was different until I switched the button to allow Tidal to have full control of the sound and "adjust volume with another program".   

It was a significant probelm when I first did it. 

@wlutke 

I am glad you heard a diff and that is what I was expecting.  I am surprised by the results.  If anyone is in the Indianapolis area I woiuld love to do this experiement and have them listen

there was a difference when I switched from laptop (operated on Server 2019 OS) to u2 mini.

I used usb cable.

Dynamics, imaging, bass, so much improvements.

Software is the main difference. I went the external streamer route then went back. Roon on any OS vs Audirvana on Linux, that’s the test you want to do. 

I will say this about direct comparisons. I find during A/B gear testing gear can sound very much the same. It’s when you listen over a period of time and I don’t mean a few hours I mean days or weeks or months. That is when you hear small sounds that just suddenly appear. The bells that just ring a little ring a little more natural.  the piano that comes to life.  Clarity and detail that you didn’t pick up on the first time around.  

I have had a lot of gear to test my comments on  

PK

It is great that you have discovered that. Situation and the outcomes for everyone is quite diverging. If the difference is not audible, you could probably consider selling the dedicated streamer and just stream with Mac. It is a wonderful thing.  I wish I could do that too and get back to the foobar2000 with EQ capability but, in my case, the dedicated streamer just sound better to my ear.

Some NICE ideas here. I have another point of failure that I have never heard discussed. That being your IP (Internet Provider) I have been in a 10 year long battle with mine (they have a monopoly here) and recently tried a 5g Internet option. IT also failed miserably. I do believe that the 5G idea a good one to pursue but it is still in its infancy and not really ready for primetime.
You can't just do an online speed test and expect an arbitrary one shot test to give you ANY real idea of thruput from your IP. It only takes a lost bit here and there to totally corrupt you listening pleasure. Just because you Speed test shows you have some outrageously high numbers doesn't mean you can consistently stream flawless audio or video. It doesn't even take an A/B test to notice a complete dropout of the internet connection.
One way to see how fault tolerant your system and IP is, is by looking in you modem for it's 'Fault report' page. That is assuming you have a modem of a quality that shows such information. I personally am using a Netgear right now and it has great fault reporting down to the second.

You should really start at the Actual 'Start' of your streaming system and in any environment , on your side of the wall socket, that is the IP.

That is a head scratcher. Could say a lot about your dac…I’ve found a difference between inputs on even decent dacs I’ve tried (my own dac vs others $500-$1k range). I upgraded from a decent basic rpi based streamer transport (Allo Digione) to a better designed and optimized rpi based transport (Pi2design Mercury streamer) which fires out I2s, coax, AES, and optical as options - even simultaneously.

Huge difference/improvement with coax, haven’t had the opportunity to try the other outputs yet. My dac is a Toppings D70s. I’d love to say your pre/dac and amp are such stars that it supersedes the quality of signal, however:

a.) I am subject to enormous bias as I own an SPL Elector Pre and I melt over its abilities (big crush on this pre and surely anything made by SPL)

b.) Most find that source tends to dictate much of the resulting sound

The biggest difference would be switching DACs.  And they are BIG! And a lot of them have settings for different filters.  Without naming DACs,  #1 dac was very accurate but a little on the sterile side.  Dac #2 had more bloom with a much more powerful low end.  It just depends which one pleases you.

I use a Blue Sound Node and it is a bit grainy but after all it is just streaming. I also won’t use an intergrated amp without a DAC. I wish HiFI Rose 150 came with.

@johnah5  Thanks for posting John.   I use the Bluenode as a streamer and keep wondering about a high end streamer.  Even if others can hear the difference, I am not sure I can as I don't have golden ears and am getting a bit older.  If it was minimal to no difference to your and your buddy, might also be hard for me to tell a difference even if others can.  

@12many 

Yes! Welcome.  I am doing another test today lower volume really listening deeply to see if I can hear a difference and will post the results. However, when I was setting things up this morning, it is absolutely not night and day.

I did another test today. I carefully listened to the Mac/USB/SPL Director DAC combo for a while before changing to the Lumin.  What I "think" I am hearing is more depth in the sound stage, more details on decay of symbols, more ambient feeling like hearing the room of the instruments echo a bit indicating they are not in a treated studio but a live club.  I did confirm that the differences require close listening to be heard. This again today was not night and day differences, in fact the differences in my DAC's, amps, even speaker cables reveal more of a sonic difference than the streamer experiment which remains boggling. I have watched/read reviewers say they hear sonic traits/differences in streamers but I may need more training to hear significant differences.  That said I am going to continue playing around and borrowing any streamer I can to continue this experiment.  Welcome all thoughts and comments.  

Thanks JH

That’s weird… when I upgraded  my streaming from a laptop feeding my dac via USB to an Auralic Aries feeding the same dac via USB, the improvement was immediately audible. Lower noise floor, better separation of instruments, more apparent detail. I’ve toyed with the idea of trying out a lumin; your post really puts me off the idea.

Please full system details (room too) and is your hearing Aok?

@wsrrsw 

System other than streamer

SPL Director pre/DAC

SPL S1200 Power Amp

Reimyo 999 main DAC

Kirmuss speaker cables 

Audio Solution Figero M speakers

My ears?  Maybe. I am better than I used to be at hearing things in the music but my mentor could hear this and say he hears a huge diff!

@johnah5 Ok...Connects from U1 to Pre and Power? It may well be your pre/DAC??? Got to ask...does the SPL Director pre/DAC have the DAC turned off or are you double DACing (doubt it)

Like many others I have never heard or heard of "computer sound" besting a good streamer.

How clean is your power?

@johnah5 I have some hearing loss especially in one ear. The little hearing aids recover upper mids.

@wsrrsw 

I have the U2 Mini connected by ether cable then to the DAC in the Director. For comparison the mac was connected via wifi then into the Director. The reimyo was not in the chain for comparison

@johnah5 Undetstood. What RCA connects are you using? (Doubt that’s it but could be)

The power thing could/couldn’t be a factor too

Room?

@wsrrsw 

Using only XLR cables no RCA.  They are Mogami and another japanese brand so they are solid.  The USB cable was a cheap one that came with my scanner!  This should be a stark audible difference. Could be my room or other things but as mentioned I "think" I am hearing more diff in depth of soundstage with the Lumin. 

It's not surprising that your friend heard no difference. I've used multiple PCs / Macs / small board computers as a streamer (using USB and sometimes optical) and have heard no difference at all between them. 

Logically, it doesn't make sense that a streamer should make a difference as all it's doing is moving bits from point A to B. As long as the data gets to the DAC intact, then you have the exact same digital audio being converted to analog, no matter how it gets there.

@johnah5 

I was thinking about this a little more after reading your latest posts and I’m wondering if a change in how these “streams” are attenuated might help in discerning any differences between the devices you’re using.

You mentioned before that you were controlling volume from within the Tidal app. This seems counterintuitive to me as I’ve always adjusted volume within software to its maximum and used my preamp to attenuate the final output.

In reading through the manual of your dac/pre I also noticed there are dip switches that allow you to set the “Director” to Unity Gain. I would suggest trying this setting if you find it more convenient to use the volume control within Tidal. The problem with this is that you’re completely relying on the software/circuits of your Mac Air for processing the volume into the Director (via USB). In the case of the Lumin you’ll be balancing the output between its internal LEEDH processing and the values dictated within the Tidal app.

For me- I would prefer using the Director as it was designed to be used allowing the AKM chip and the preamp to control all. That should take away any variables seen between software/hardware. I would recommend trying the following setups for your listening tests (hopefully I understand the signal chain enough to not introduce other problems).

SPL Director- Leave the dip switches on RCA/XLR in the OFF position so that the Director controls the volume output.

Mac Air- within the Tidal app set the volume to 100%. In system settings select your USB output to see the Director as the device and set the volume to 0.0 dB (100%). Connect via USB to the Director.

Lumin U2 Mini- Connect the Lumin to the Director via AES. Within the Lumin configuration settings adjust the volume control to 100% and within the LEEDH tab select OFF. Adjust all of your upsampling modes to the native rates supported by the AKM chip within the Director (see manual). 
With these settings the volume of Tidal may vary when switching inputs from AES to USB- this is a “tell” that demonstrates the attenuation differences between devices. You should be able to level match each fairly well with a dB meter app. If your Director holds the volume level from each input while switching you can quickly match the levels and get back to comparing each device/signal path on its own merit.

@johnah5  Is the Lumin broken in? It should take 400-500 hours to settle in. For reals.

@designsfx 

I never said I was using Tidal for volume control. There was a volume diff that I was able to fix but turning on a setting in Tidal that allows it to control but volume has been and always is controlled by the Director preamp.  Leedh is also off on the Lumin and again the director adjusts the volume

I verified sound levels with a DB meter. 

JH

@yage 

Yes I agree but I listened to the owner of Antipodes interviewed on Darko podcast and he explained that the packets are always sent complete and any incomplete/corruption is erased as the system re-sends the packets.  He said the crucial part of data is the timing information for playback.  He said noise from a computer etc will cause timing issues and smearing of the square wave which I think is from jitter. Anyway he makes a very good argument on why a streamer would matter so I was shocked to not hear an absolute night and day difference!

JH

Whoever you listened to on the Darko podcast was mistaken. Audio over USB is an isochronous transfer. This means that if bit errors are detected, the packet is dropped and not retransmitted. In this case you will hear dropouts, stuttering or pops during playback, not unlike this example - https://archimago.blogspot.com/2014/01/demo-measurements-what-does-bad-usb-or.html. Perhaps the person was conflating transferring audio over a network with a protocol like TCP/IP. In that case, TCP will guarantee reliable data transmission and resend lost or mangled packets.

There is virtually no jitter on an asynchronous USB connection (which is what most DACs use nowadays). The data is buffered and clocked back out by the receiver. Note that in the previous link, although you can hear the errors, the jitter plots appear very similar. 

So what does jitter actually sound like? Here is a great website that has audio clips with varying amounts of induced jitter. Have a listen with you and your friend. See if what you hear matches what the audiophile conventional wisdom attributes to 'timing issues' - https://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like

@yage 

I think he was saying the information via packet is easily and perfectly transfered via USB.  He was referring to the timing information for playback that is crucial to good sound.  I would have to go re-listen to it but the guy is making and selling streamers in Australia.

Thanks for the website will try and find a way to listen to it over my system or will use headphones. The jitter was easily heard on my ipad!  

jh

Final Update

Had another friend come over and he did 100% hear a difference between the mac computer and Lumin streamer.  The difference he heard was immediate and it was what I "thought" I was hearing.  It was removing a cloud from the music. It sounded more present and alive and real than what the computer as a streamer presented. 

JH

I lost track of posts in between but seems you conclude your experiment with 180 degree turn and come back to the senses. You could keep the streamer now. Congratulate.

@lanx0003 

Yes!  The main finding for me was how close it was from a really "bad" source to almost 2,000 x better source!

I replaced a Node with a U1 mini and it was a noticeable improvement.

I’ve done a similar test…..   no difference !   Ughhhhh

I have a decently resolving system :
Wilson wp6 speakers

pass labs xa 25 amp

Lampizator golden atlantic dac

Lumin u2 mini, node 2, Mac mini  

Preamps Benchmark hpa4 and Prima Luna dialogue w new tubes

I am starting to believe all of these fancy reviewers on YouTube are completely biased in their reviews. I love how they wax poetic about this dac versus this streamer, and in the end, not much difference when I listen . Whenever one of them says the difference is minimal, I know what that really means, the difference isn’t there. I have spent way too much money trying different fancy gear only to find minimal difference.   Even fancy Dacs are surprisingly close. My lampi certainly does not destroy my cheap topping dac.  But, I can hear a difference and I can pick it out in a blind direct AB test every time. Put me in a room and ask me which dac is playing, not so easy.      
 

good stuff!
 

@sisserman 

Great post. I def hear a diff in DAC's and possibly the strength of the DAC which reclocks and cleans up the data stream is the reason the streamer is harder to hear when changed. 

I am deep into tubes amps these days. Have Aric Audio 2A3, Elekit 300B and going to build an Audio Note Kit PP EL34

JH