Volleyguy1,
Jetrexpro is speaking about WE16ga as interconnect wire in his latest statement above, not as speaker wire; Jet is bravely conducting a few experiments.
Also, I would like to point out all comments are not created equal. You must separate the "chaff from the wheat" to use a hackneyed, yet true expression. In this hobby your own ears and subjective connection to the music/sonic attribute is what matters.
I am going to stick my neck out and make a bold statement, albeit not the first one to do so: it's about connecting to the music; not the sound. It's about the whole Megillah/enchiladas; not the individual parts. Exhibit A: you're at a classical concert featuring Bach sitting in row M. The concert is great, the players, the Conductor, everything just clicked this evening, Bach was masterfully played a once in a lifetime performance. The concert audience roared their approval with a number of standing ovations. After the concert the music lover, still exhilarated, wax with enthusiasm about the music, the emotion of the performance, how wonderful it was, how the Orchestra and Conductor played their hearts out. Bravo! The music lover's friend, an Audiophile chimes in, yeah, I heard the second violinist chair squeak in Prelude in E flat minor. Do you think we heard enough hall sound and decay of notes? In retrospect I don't think there was good imaging, or separation of instrument, something odd, the music seemed to come at you as a whole piece. I think that is what mono sounded like.
A bit of hyperbole; but I think you know the direction I am headed? |
Rhanson, "All that's golden does not glitter." Giving these a try surely requires slaughtering every sacred cow in sight. Were it not for Rob's endorsement, who I know to share my sonic value system, I would have dismissed all this wire as someones pipe dream. However, since I was in the process of putting together a new system requiring long runs of wire, the attractive price in addition to Rob's endorsement compelled me to give it a try. While my experiment got off to a rough start, with only about 10 hours of burn in, I am very satisfied with this wire and have no doubt it will get better based on Bill's experience with burn in. Even if it gets no better than it is right now, it is a steal at the price. Nothing I have tried at 2x or 3x the price comes close. It will be, as you say, interesting to see how it turns out for you. |
Ok Jet a built a set of WE ICs today. Here is my build. Switchcraft gold RCA connectors. I used one pole of 16g WE for positive and one for negative twisting over the length of the cable. Not a tight twist but a turn every 1.5 - 2 inches.
I then place a tinned copper braided shield with 85% coverage and soldered on both negative ends. The braid is made by Belden. I then placed clear heat shrink over the braid and finally a nice gold colored woven cloth outer jacket.
Burning in on my cheap shop system. |
Rob and Grannyring where is the capacitors you are talking about. I think I have found the page but which is the correct ones? |
Just took delivery of my 6'8" WE 16g speaker wires.
My first impression on taking them out of the package? "THESE are purportedly going to beat what I have now?!"
They're so small, so narrow, so light... so old. I'd hesitate to hook up a lamp with these.
It'll be interesting to see how this goes. |
Jetrxpro
Interesting you say that I find the WE wire has strange settling in more than any other wire I have heard?
Rob and Grannyring
As we talked about before this wire could shake many foundations of belief and not just about wire.
Does this mean Silver caps are not better? I only have copper so can not say but many think so...
Why use Silver solder? When wire coated in tin is great? (I can not claim to hearing any solder difference but many can)
Someone mention skin affect being not good with only 25 strands.
Yazaki-san is sending our beliefs for a loop! |
Charles, Yep! Piano is so hard to get right. She heard 26 years worth of LvB sonatas without ever having been fooled. Is it live, or is it Coincident? |
Bill (Brownsfan)
Your wife's "who's playing the piano" says all that needs to be said. So innocent, yet so telling.
Charles, |
Wow Jet! I am still debating if I should shield them. I do have some Belden tinned copper braided shield. Don't want them to sound closed in at all.
Interesting that they still keep changing! |
Grannyring, the WE 16ga ICs I built are still changing. For a few days the highs were kind of sizzling and brittle and tonight the overall sound has turned dull. So these things are needing over 175 hours and who knows how much more to settle in. Jet |
Grannyring,
You truly nail it according to my experience. I'm going to follow Yazaki-san to the letter as well as your footsteps, will wire-up most of the items I have with the WE16ga, install the Arizona Green Cactus capacitors and Ohmite Brown Devil resistors where appropriate. To me Yazaki-san is one of the few folks you must listen to when he talks about audio issues; he has made a lot of folks happy with his recommendation, even jaded old audiophiles. Best, Rob |
Well said Rob. I have not a/b'd the various WE wire ga so I don't know the sound difference. I am sure there is as gauge matters and that is why all the cables sold have their own gauge recipe.
All I know is this 16ga makes the best sound I have heard in my home systems over the past 30 years. It makes wonderful signal wire in gear as well as crossover and internal speaker wire. Nothing I have heard is as good. I have used it all from the purest copper to all kinds of silver and solid core, but the WE is the best.
I pulled out very, very expensive Jupiter solid core silver & gold wire that Chris sold me special preferring the WE wire. I thought the Jupiter silver/gold was wonderful, but in the preamp the WE is better.
Jeff Day's blog was just updated with him sharing how this wire is now inside his speaker etc... And his comments mirror my experience 100%.
I will report back on the WE ICs made with 16ga as I am making them this week. I imagine they will sound great as all the gear I have uses the same wire as input and output signal wire internally.
Looking at the materials used there is no way this stuff should sound this wonderful and resolving. I am still shaking my head.
I have also found the $25 Green Cactus capacitors are every bit as musical as the caps we all spend $100's on. The last 6 months have been a wonderful learning experience and have thickened my wallet. |
Brownsfan,
The Modwright Oppo would appear to be a great choice with the Coincident Dynamo/Triumpth combo. You demonstrate with that set-up how you can achieve top-shelf sound for reasonable dollars. Best, Rob |
Mitch2,
Thanks for passing along this wire information. I'm not an engineer, but a musician who left that trade a long time ago to pursue a different profession. My wife is a classical guitarist who also left that profession to pursue another profession. I think we both have good ears and like most musicians we are extremely familiar with a plethora of instruments and how they sound in a variety of venues live, both on stage and in the audience; but I have a bone to pick, or quibble if you will. You state: "Regarding the price, of course it is a tremendous bargain. More will probably try it because of the low entry price. However, I suspect many here are listening in more absolute terms and will end up with whatever wire they enjoy most, regardles of which is lower priced. My WE wires continue to remain in my main system, at least for now."
To my mind in my "absolute world" yes, I will end up using whatever wire I enjoy the most regardless of price. That does not mean however, that the wire I use will be based on some "cable savvy audiophiles" opinion. The view that ETP copper is "clearly inferior" for "audio/sonic" purposes" to other types of copper you mentioned is clearly inferior thinking on the part of those authors. The proof is always in the taste of the pudding, not the measurement or ingredients in it. It either tastes good, better, best, or worse to the subjective taster. Same for sound. It either sounds good, better, best, or worse to the subjective listener. Regardless of measurement or ingredients.
The WE16ga/Belden 8402 sounds more real and musical to me than products made from the stuff you listed above. So, to me in an "audio/sonic" sense they are inferior to me as musician/listener/audiophile. To Yazaki-san, an esteemed engineer/audio designer/builder/mod person who has vast experience with the biggest Japan audio company's as leader, Jeff Day, reviewer/audiophile and many of his colleagues pick WE/Belden over or at least equal to the likes of Sablon/Revive and many other brands of top-notch wires, silver or copper made from your above list.
Audiophiles have bought in with their $$$$$ to many follies. Look around. Ask your audio buddies: how many big $$$$$ mistakes, wrong turns have you taken in this hobby? This WE plays with the big boys. So does the Belden; and let me be clear, there is no "absolute best." |
Brownsfan, your WE14 will sound just fine.
I have WE14 and WE16 over here together in a bi-wire pair and they sound great. The runs are doubled up and twisted to lower inductance.
The WE wire is the same regardless of the gauge. It is all 30awg strands of tinned copper with the larger gauges having more strands. I suspect this is C110, electrolytic tough pitch copper, or ETP. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure.
From an electrical engineering standpoint, this stuff is just fine. From a conventional audiophile standpoint, there are several shortcomings compared to the C101 OFE (Oxygen-Free Electronic) copper or OCC (Ohno continuous-cast) copper used in many/most of the upper level cable offerings. The science of it is that those two higher grade (e.g., lower impurities, or 99.99% pure compared to 99.9% for ETP) wires have only an additional one percent conductivity rating (101% vs. 100% IACS), although several on-line articles/reviews call ETP copper "clearly inferior" for audio/sonic purposes. Cable-savvy audiophiles will also not like the thermoplastic insulation/dielectric, the relatively large aggregate gauge (wire greater than 20-22 awg is subject to skin effect), and the tinning (most self-respecting audiophiles would never stoop to using tinned wires).
In spite of all that, the WE wire has a tonally rich, somewhat relaxed sound with really nice full bass. IMO, it is a musical contrast to some of the ultra resolving wires out there. I wouldn't get hung up on the size of the wire and certainly not the difference between 16 and 14awg. I believe TWL may be using the 10awg size in their speaker wires that have received several quite positive reviews. I hope to make a set in 10awg this weekend.
Regarding the price, of course it is a tremendous bargain. More will probably try it because of the low entry price. However, I suspect many here are listening in more absolute terms and will end up with whatever wire they enjoy most, regardles of which is lower priced. My WE wires continue to remain in my main system, at least for now. |
my wife has really good ears. perfect pitch, actually. |
Hi Brownsfan,
The wife factor always puts these musical sound related matters into perspective. Your wife made a comment that should make any of us guys stand up and take note. Their hearing ability is almost always better. Please them and guys likely have less problems getting their cooperation with regard to our music system. Sounds like your wife is an asset to you getting great sound. I know all your hard work/sweating in miserable crawl space over the past week or so is going to pay dividends. Your old house had a terrific aesthetic, a real pleasing listening environment. All the best in the new house. Rob |
Rob, I laughed at your statement about your wife commenting on the change in sound. For me, a similar event occurred when I got the TEIIs. I fired them up and my wife asked who was playing the piano. I knew right then the Magnepans were going to go. |
Nonoise,
I'm willing to bet those Supra cables sound really good based on what I now know with regard to WE. I also think that there is a fair chance that the tinned copper wire in the Supra has a WE pedigree. If I ever run out of the WE I'd give the Supra first shot. Best, Rob |
Charles,
I don't know if I really, actually will get to compare the Yamamoto at the Rocky Mountain Fest. I was told by an aquintance one would be there at the show. I am seriously going to attempt to get to RMAF this year. Axpona came to Jacksonville, FL, about 35 mi down the road from where I live couple/few years back, really last show my wife and I spent any time at.
At any rate, if I don't get a listen at this show, worst case I'll jump on it ultimately based on your/Grannyring comments. I know I can trust your ears and listening bias. I should have bought the one from Grannyring, but my life is in such flux at the moment I decided to give myself some more time to sort stuff out before my move back to southern FL. The Yammi just does not pop up for sale used very often. |
Volleyguy1,
You're good with me, as stated above just good, old-fashioned ribbing on my part as well.
No, I did not cook my wire like Jeff Day. My Coincident is in my home office system as well and the room is well-damped, 14x16x9 (higher at its peak). The WE16ga was smooth and transparent from the start and almost immediately began ticking off all the aphile checklist in a positive manner. As I stated it just kept getting better and as Grannyring stated as well, at about 100 hours it was really great on the aphile checklist, but was musical like few other cables I have owned. No syrup, just real sound/music. It was shocking actually. Completely blew my mind, I wasn't expecting what happened. I decided almost immediately to dump all my speaker cables after my golden-ear wife (classical guitarist) said, "wow, what just happened to the music?" I've already sold some, my silver stuff will be sold soon. Same qualities of music with the Belden 8402 interconnect. Out with the various Kimber, out with MIT, out with the silver Goertz, and some others, you get the idea. Like Grannyring, I purchased enough of the WE16ga for 3 sets of speaker wire, plus enough to wire 3 sets of speakers, 3 amps in addition to any other mods I might make down the line. As I stated many times before with respect to this wire, it is the best so far for me. Whatever rings your musical bells I hope you find it. Best, Rob |
Brownsfan
I am glad you heard what I did in this wire to begin with.
I have no idea what 100 hours is going to sound like but the improvement is rapid. Will it continue? |
Nonoise, before i pulled the trigger on the WE 14 I seriously considered the Supra based on your previous comments. It is good that someone is using a similar design in current production cables. The NOS WE wire is going fast. |
OK, I got about 8 hrs on the WE14s yesterday. The roughness in the treble is gone as is the nasal tonality. Even during this brief burn in, the musicality of these cables (I'm talking PRAT now) manifested itself. They are very smooth and grain free. I was VERY pleased with what I heard last night before I shut things down. I'm finding that the foundation pieces of this system, e.g., the Coincident dynamo, the WEs, and the Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs, to be a killer combo. I've got about 4.6K in those pieces. Crazy good for that much money! Since this will serve not only for living room music, but also see service as a two channel AV system, I'm thinking this would finish out very nicely with a ModWright Oppo 105.
Al identified the probable cause of the initial awful sound. Count me a WE 14 believer at this point. |
Just like a "great" cheap car. He he haw haw he |
Brownsfan,
Your 14ga wire should sound just fine. My Supras (somewhat similar in design) are 190 tinned strands coming in at 12ga and they sound wonderful. Let us know how it works out.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Rob did you cook your wire first?
My comment about sounding bad at 0 hours is raw uncooked wire.
The WE already has improved greatly and again I apologize if the comment upset anyone and even I was not to worried of that being the end result.
I just did not hear anyone else mention it? More of confusion.
My impression at this point is the stranded copper wire comparing it to is muffled.
My focus is the why?
After 100 hours the test will be against Duelund. So this wire is in office system.
When you tell most people we can hear a difference from one wire to another they think we are nuts then you tell them the wire sounds much different at 10 hours then 0 and they are ready to committ us!
Rob I have high hopes this wire for sure sounds different! Just not yet sure what it means and why? |
Rob,
Yamamoto has such a small U.S. presence I'm surprised you'll be able to hear it at the show. What will it be paired with? Again I believe that you will like both DACs if they're in a good romm/system. RMAF is a very good show.
Charles, |
Just reading some posts from awhile back and I did not mean to upset anyone.
I have not compared WE against Duelund yet. I am doing the burn in on office system. I do not have a cable cooker like Jeff does. The comparison is vs. stranded copper. WE was at 0 hours and was by no means a end thought on WE.
Once burned in I will move to main system to compare to Duelund Silver.
Sorry I only meant to poke fun at all of us. Some people think we are nuts you know talking about wire. The realiity is you really can hear a difference.
WE is dirt cheap compared to other expensive wire. |
Al, You, my friend, are a genius! The lack of sound in one channel was due to the fact that I temporarily hooked up one leg of the left channel without stripping the insulation. There was a good reason why I did this, which completely escapes me now. I forgot to go back and strip that leg before powering up the amp. There was no short, which is my worst nightmare in dealing with unterminated stranded wire. I quickly realized I had no sound from that channel and quickly (like 10 seconds) turned off the amp to avoid operating the dynamo without a load on one side. At that point, it was the end of the day, and I was tired, sweaty, and hot. I had no idea where my multimeter was, so I figured I needed to shut things down and try again with a fresh start. Good decision.
So your second scenario appears to be the correct one. It is nice to know there was a reasonable physical explanation for what I heard, other than that Rob and Bill don't know what music sounds like. It is kind of funny, because the sound was so bad it was exactly what I would expect old low tech speaker wire to sound like. Bad enough that 5 seconds of music was enough to tell me something was very wrong. |
Hi Charles,
It is almost certain that I am going to the Rocky Mountain Fest, Oct 2-3. Yazaki-san will be there demo with DeVore 0/96 his SPEC Real Sound integrated as well as his turntable design. I believe/hope I will compare/contrast Lampizator/Yamamoto at that event. I trust you will be right with regard to my timbral listening bias, the Yamamoto will likely win out. Best, Rob |
Rob,
Bill's Lampi (Big push pull tubes) vs Yami (DHT SET) sums it up effectively. |
Rob,
I'd have to agree with Bill's comparison of the two DACs. A friend of mine had the Lampizator Big 5 with Duelund capacitors and it is very good sounding ( forward presentation as Bill described). When we placed the yamamoto DAC (Duelund CASTcapacitors) in his system both of us preferred the Yamamoto). Same result in my system as well. The Yamamoto is more organic, fluid and involving musically speaking. It more effectively pulls you deeper into the music and is very dynamic and vibrant.
Rob the Lampizator is very good sounding, your opinion could be different from ours, variables and that subjectivity factor again. Yamamoto really does fit the "Timbral listening" gestalt very convincingly. Shigeki Yamamoto is cut from similar Japanese designer cloth as Yazaki IMO. I hope you can actually hear both of these DACs for your own ears to decide.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
I don't know, your experience is so unusual and unexpected. Maybe it is the difference between the WE14ga compared to the 16ga? I have three (3) different sets of the WE16ga speaker wire. They all sounded great out the box and just kept getting better and better, top to bottom; completely opposite what you describe, never any nasally sound. Comparing only to our mutual Coincident Dynamo and my system the WE was: big, best soundstage ever, holographic, timbral accuracy, tone, tone, tone, texture, rich saturated color palate, great mids down bass improved, no glare, black background, heard every nuance much, much better, bells, gongs, cymbals, etc. really pristine, top end is sneaky extended, no etch on top register of violins, beautiful wood winds, brass, it is all so musical, coherent. The emotion of the music comes through as well as the intent of musicians. Yeah, natural organic wholeness in a real full weighty transparent manner with the warmth of the real thing. As Ron (colleague of Jeff Day who executed Day's mods) stated, "no one is going to believe what we are hearing." Well, no one is going to believe what I am hearing from the modest Dynamo with WE16ga/Belden, save Grannyring and others who have heard it themselves.
I sincerely wish only the best sound/music for you. Rob |
Bill (Brownsfan), was the lack of sound in one channel on that first day caused by either a short or an open in the connections between the amplifier and that speaker? If so, it is very conceivable that the poor sound in the other channel resulted from effects of that short or open on the performance of the amp.
In the case of a short, for obvious reasons. In the case of an open, running a tube amp having an output transformer, such as the Dynamo, with no load on one channel could have resulted in large voltage spikes in the output stage of that channel due to "inductive kickback" from the transformer (Google "inductive kickback" for further info), those spikes conceivably having coupled to some extent into the amplifier's circuitry for the other channel.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Grannyring,
Thanks, your descriptors help significantly. I think when the time is right I will go the Yamamoto route. I trust your ears. Rob |
Rob,
Output Cap change, WE wire on the inputs and outputs and a nice upgraded fuse. The Lampi was more forced sounding and upfront if you will. It did not let the music come to me, but rather shot it out at me. The Yami lets the music flow with an addictive ease I bet many highly touted $10,000 dacs can't touch. I like the intimacy of the Yami. The Yami sounds like a great SET amp, while the Lampi sounded more like a powerful tube push/pull amp. Trying to help you better understand the differences Rob. |
Rob, No apology necessary! I really think this wire is going to be fine once I have some burn in time. Even in its current state, I don't know of another wire in that price range that would be as good. And, as I said, I will need to bring another source downstairs before I will know anything for sure. The belden has shipped, so I should have that soon. That first day was pretty frustrating. I can't imagine what was going on. It sounded so bad, I've heard much better sound out of a boom box. Sounded a bit like my 1957 Chevy car radio. Now it sounds COMPLETELY different. Even with 3-4 hours, I am liking it more and more. I have no interest in returning the WE14 (or spending anymore time in the crawl space).
I wonder if Volleyguy is going through something similar? |
Brownsfan,
Really sorry to hear this about your experience. Tajacobs has a excellent return policy. If the 14ga does not improve consider returning the wire. Best, Rob |
Here's a more complete description of the DejaVu room at CAF.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1439067662&openflup&11&4#11 |
I wish the folks posting about the organic, natural, live sound qualities described by Mr. Yazaki-san could have attended the Capital Audio Fest in Rockville, Md. last weekend. A local dealer DejaVu Audio had a room with speakers using vintage Western Electric drivers and horns and it was driven by custom electronics built with WE and other vintage parts. The sound would have knocked you over! It was truly organic and natural sounding especially with the acoustic jazz that was playing each time I was in the room. Wire makes a difference, no question about that, but speakers and electronics with the same type of qualities make an even greater difference. |
Grannyring,
Thank you for the info. Are the two mods the Capictor change? Best, Rob |
Rob, I had a Lampizator 4/4 with Duelund caps on the input and outputs. The Yamamoto is better after two simple mods. I found the Lampi to be very good, but in the end, not as musical and engaging. Based on your sonic preferences I am quite sure the Yami is better for you than the Lampi. |
Brownsfan, hope it works out! I cannot vouch on the sound of the 14ga as I have mentioned before. I can tell you the 16ga is as good as wire gets after burn in. I just don't know what a thicker and different birth date means in terms of sound vs. the 16 ga. |
OK, so I think i will put my 2 cents in ($200 actually) now. I needed about 100 ft to do my living room system and got going too late for the WE16. I got a 29 ft run, but another 3 that length wasn't going to happen. So, I took a chance on a 95 ft spool of WE14 (black, stranded, and tinned). I spent a couple days last week fishing wires through the built in bookcases, floor, and crawl space. Having finished the wiring, I began to set up the electronics. I have an old unmodified Oppo 93 feeding my Coincident Dynamo using a very old and cheap pair of monster cable ICs I had in my AV system. Speakers are Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs. I fired it up and got sound out of one channel, and it sounded like crap. I turned everything off and waited two days, during which time I mumbled something about being too good to be true repeatedly. Take a deep breath and get back at it! I took everything out set it all up on the floor, and ran an $800 pair of Audio Magic Liquid Air speaker wires for a while to get used to the sound of the Oppo. I put the stuff back in the book case, rewired everything, found the issue with the left channel, and fired it up again. It does not sound all that bad. Yes, there is a nasal quality and a roughness in certain treble frequencies that will have to resolve. I'm going to take Bill's council re burn in time to heart and reserve judgment until then. But assuming 100 hours of burn in works the promised magic, I think this stuff will work for me. I will need to bring a decent source downstairs to see what I really have. I have no explanation as to why the stuff sounded so awful that first day and now sounds more than respectable.
Best of all, I still have the 29 ft of the WE 16 in red, sitting in a box untouched. I plan on holding it, since my portfolio is a little short on precious metals. However, if someone wanted to trade me a pair of NOS WE 300B tubes straight up, I think we could probably work that out. :) Stay tuned. |
Perhaps because I value his opinion and respect his thoughts and thought (perhaps misguided) that I could utilize a little good natured ribbing ala lockerroom, (whoops, not football site), hence the 900-3 score. My comments were not an attack, subtle or overt. I value contrarian point of view, extremely valuable. How did you like your WE, any thoughts you might share? I'm really quite interested in Volleyguy1's full thoughts when he drops in next...Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Hilarious! Boy, that Yamamoto went fast! Great price, too! I'm already double thinking it. Ultimately, I'll compare/contrast the Yamamoto DAC against the Lampizator. Best, Rob |
Hi, No point missed Rob, you're crystal clear. |
Charles,
LoL, my wife keeps asking, "when are you putting the Silnote back in?"
I told her never; but the Silnote could be in her AN Kit-1 if she wanted it there. Hassle resolved. Best, Rob
P.S. I must admit her ears measure better than my ears, but we all realize measurement is not everything. |
Now I feel bad, sorta; but to be extremely clear I really, absolutely don't care what other people like, or don't in this hobby. I always trust my own ears. I expect everyone else to do the same. I alerted this board to the WE16ga and Belden 8402, Day/Yazaki-san, Timbral Listening as food for thought. To me, Day/Yazaki-san "listening bias" is stated up-front what they like and seek. This information should be helpful to anyone considering a Review or design principle. It is interesting to note/compare/contrast the difference between typical Aphile listening (majority) and Timbral listening (minority). In the WE16ga/Belden 8402 we received a concrete example of wires that meet the standards of some reputable "timbral listeners." They are low-cost. That they play in the big leagues is a plus, plus, should be of some interest. Again, not to say your own listening tastes won't like something else better; as the hackneyed expression states, YMMV. OK. Now let us nit-pick to the death a wire costing around $80 with a verisimilitude to the big boys, say, vs $1,800 or more expensive wire. Carry on, but I think many miss the simple point. |
