Looking for... Integrated tube amp with phono

I ordered an EAT E-Glo Petit because it had an easy return policy and bought an old Fosgate Signature Phono preamp (v1). The EAT arrived first and it sounded ok... better (to me) than the Luxman SS phono stage. I played it for a few days, and although it might not have been broken in, I knew it wasn't going to compete with the Fosgate as soon as I heard it. This thing works really well with my SS amp.

This should hold me for a while (famous last words😂).

A bit rare/ tough to get a good sonic quality built-in phono stage in both integrated SS or tube that would match the rest of your system.  Likely the built-in would be a sonic bottleneck.  

Right, I understand as I've owned integrateds and separates. BUT, the phono stage I like is not a separate phono stage... it's just a little section of the CJ linestage. And that CJ model is pretty cheap.  The Luxman does have a discreet phono amp built-in with both MC & MM, which is impressive for an integrated. Granted, it's their TOTL. Also, I could only find positive comments online regarding Luxman's phono amp on the L-509z, although I realize those are just people's opinions.

A bit rare/ tough to get a good sonic quality built-in phono stage in both integrated SS or tube that would match the rest of your system.  Likely the built-in would be a sonic bottleneck.  

Ok, so this is turning more into a blog than what I originally intended, but today I decided to connect my CJ PV10B as a phono amp to my Luxman. Keep in mind, the phono stage on the CJ is for MM only and my LOMC Denon DL-301mkii has an output of only .4mV. So, I was surprised/happy (and disappointed)... this setup actually sounds better than the Luxman phono stage. The CJ isn't even an expensive model (I've got it for sale at $1100 and no takers). I have the CJ volume maxed-out (I tried using the tape monitor connections but it was a little too quiet). There's no noise, very little distortion, and I've got some of that magic back. I don't know if the phono stage on the CJ is extremely good for the price (I have a feeling it is), or if my cartridge really doesn't require a moving coil phono stage. 

So, I guess I'm going to buy a cheap (less than $2k) MC phono amp and see what happens. I'm bummed because I really wanted to get a single box to "do it all", and if I were using a $10k phono amp, I would understand the results. But the fact that the CJ phono stage probably costs less than what's inside my Luxman... well, that kinda bums me out.

Now I need to see what a dedicated phono amp will do (but, at under $2k used, I doubt it will be much, if any, better than the Conrad Johnson).

I actually turn the treble almost to the max setting and the bass is pretty close, too. I did the same with the CJ setup, except that I had to use an EQ, because there were no tone controls. Granted, I have hearing loss from decades of too-loud music, but I've always liked a lot of treble and bass, since I was a kid. I only listen to rock (or metal)... Black Sabbath-y stuff, if that makes a difference.

Really, the only thing the Luxman is missing is the echo-type midrange I've gotten with all my tube amps. I know a lot of people around here like "flat" music, but I don't enjoy that at all.

Luxman has a very distinct flashy sound with elevated treble and a bit elevated bass. To me it is a flashy sounding and looking amp. So, it is the opposite of Conrad Johnson, ARC and VAC, which emphasizes fidelity to real live music with great rhythm and pace and midrange bloom. Interesting last minute u-turn.

I looked at Accuphase (not class A- too expensive, not enough power) and the used ones I saw seemed pretty similar to Luxmans, but they cost more and often didn't have the phono adapter, which are very expensive to add).

Seems like a sideways move.

Also, my priority for having a DAC is much lower than in my OP. I haven't even connected my Bluesound because I need longer interconnects and haven't bothered shopping for any.

Accuphase Class A perhaps. No, you won't find substitute for tubes in it either, but this is higher level than Luxman and I think with optional phono stage and DAC it's got all the features that you would like to have.

I myself certainly would get Accuphase if for some reasons I would have to abandon tubes.

I don't think Boulder integrated has what you need.

D'Agostino Momentum is great but the cost is ridiculous even used.

Seems your sonic preference leans towards tubes.

Definintely. The Luxman is, by far, the best transistor amp I've ever owned... I was curious to see/hear what a "decent" SS would be like.

Seems your sonic preference leans towards tubes.

I forgot to follow up on this... so, I asked for some very specific recommendations and then I went with something completely different.🙄

I was very close to buying the VAC Sigma 170i on eBay (it’s local to me, and surprisingly still for sale), but I couldn’t get motivated to pull the trigger. I decided to try a SS integrated amp. I know I didn’t like the last one I had (Denon PMA-2500ne), but this one is a bit higher on the food chain. I bought a Luxman L-509z (100v, from Japan).

What I like... MC onboard phono stage (no real adjustments to the MC settings, but it sounds decent), tone controls (!), loudness button (although I rarely use it), remote control (haven’t had one in years), and a decent headphone amp (I tried it and it sounds good enough for me, even if I never use it), and the build quality is top-notch. It sounds... pretty good. In retrospect, had I known what it sounded like, I’m not sure I would’ve bought it. Why? Because my old Conrad Johnson separates sounded "better". But, I definitely like all the features in one box and it’s really simple for my wife to use (this is a bigger factor than I’m letting on). I guess the only thing missing that the CJ had was that 3-dimensional "holographic" sound (I realize some of you are rolling your eyes right now😁). It’s just that one little thing, but I definitely notice every time I listen.

So, this thing probably won’t be an endgame piece for me, unfortunately. I don’t fully regret buying it (I still have my CJ separates, so I could sell this and move on, but I don’t know what I want exists in my price range). Maybe a Mcintosh MA12000, but that’s beyond my budget (and I have no need for that much power, either).

@ron325 Margules dealer here. The Margules ACRH-4 runs $4,800, and it is significantly better than the ACRH-3. It’s very involving and sounds like a true tube amplifier given warmth and harmonics despite its hybrid design, while having good control to drive less sensitive speakers. The built in phono stage is really good, too, but unfortunately only MM. Happy to answer any questions you may have on this unit if it lands in your consideration list. 

Try a Luxman integrated 505 

Audio Research I/50 integrated amplifier, which costs $5500, optional MM/high-output MC phono module ($750) if it is installed. (There is also an optional DAC module for $1000.) comes w remote. Very positive reviews here and here. Since this is a newer product, one can expect superior sonics price/performance especially from the established AR brand.

As far as I know, Audionote doesn't make any high-powered integrated amps with a phono section.

@ericgale

"Or just buy used and save yourself the anxiety over resale value."

The original post says I'm only looking for used.

Big difference in prices. Though they still fit in your budget, and list.

audionote cobra

rogue Cronus magnum 3

best luck.. 

or go the speaker route..

Devore fidelity 

Audionote 

Dadelus

they all make stand monitors which will work perfectly with tube integrated 

Couldn't agree with you more @ericgale 

Resale funny like you are buying a car. Resale in electronics is a misnomer, you will not even recover 50%. It is like buying a mobil home as a real estate investment. Buy what you like and when it is time to upgrade, take your lumps just like you do when buying a car. Or just buy used and save yourself the anxiety over resale value.😭😭🤑🤑

Please don't get me wrong, I do agree that Rogue is not in the same league as CJ, VAC, BAT, Mac, Lux and even Cary. I believe Rogue fits into a close proximity sonically, and meets a mid fi need for lower cost/high value. All the way around my Cary SLI80HS is a far better integrated than Rogue and even the Margules. Fit and finish, as well as it's overall sound quality. 

@ghdprentice 

Thanks for the sanity check.

OP,

You are correct. The Rogue is not in the same league as VAC and Conrad Johnson. 

@doyle3433 

Right, but I've already owned a Rogue and I don't think it's in the same league as VAC (or, the CJ stuff I already own). I could be wrong, but I'm just guessing here.

@ron325 i owned a Rogue Atlas 3 a couple years ago. That was a damn good amp. Well made, authoritative and musical sounding, built like a tank. I like Rogue as a company, they were always responsive when I had a question. Hard to go wrong there.

So, the GSi75 is off my list (assuming I want an EQ option). I emailed ARC and asked if there was a way to connect one and they said “no” (other than between the source and the amp, which is not an option).

I looked closer at the Rogue and that is nicely upgraded from the one I owned. I asked them about adding an EQ and they can install a processor loop for $350. I think the lack of tone controls is why I sold my Tempest II years ago. Seems like a great amp for the money, but not sure it’s better than my CJ stuff. Especially the SS phono stage in the Rogue.

@ron325  Honestly that's a tough one. I have listened and sold some CJ gear when I worked in the hifi store. One of my favorites was the CJ MF200, that was a great amp for sure. I have never heard the 60, though I have read it's really good as most CJ is. 

I think the Margules would hold it's own. I found it to be pretty dynamic, it has some weight and dynamics for sure. Very musical, I never felt any fatigue while listening. Maybe an area where it edges out the CJ is that its a very easy to live with unit. Ease of use and all that. It's also pretty unique, if that's something that matters to you. 

I too had to do some research on the company. Turns out they are one of the oldest companies in home and pro audio in Mexico. I heard several other Margulese units at the recent Florida show in Feb. I was very impressed. 

Margules,Rouge, Audio Hungary, Octave, Prima Luna, all good choices. 

Thanks, I previously saw that Margules and had to look up the company. That’s the problem… resale. I don’t mind buying from a small company, but I worry about resale, especially non-domestic manufacturers.

Also, I question whether that would sound better than my Conrad Johnson separates.

Full disclosure, I am going to recommend taking a look at a Margules ACRH3, that is for sale currently, on The Music Room's site, yes it is mine. It may have what you are looking for. I found it to have plenty of power 100wpc, an excellent phono stage for MM, MI or high output MC. The remote is functional, hefty and functional. The input stage is tubed. I really enjoyed my time with it. Very musical and easy to listen to. 

@stereo5

If I had $40k in my amp budget, I surely wouldn't be buying an integrated amp. The L2i looks interesting, but I don't have a Vinnie Rossi budget, even for the L2i.

@stereo5

I had a Rogue Tempest ii (90 wpc) about 8-9 years ago. It was decent, but I would want something completely different if I bought another Rogue. Just to change it up; I had no real issues with it (that I can remember).

Rogue Cronus Magnum 3.  I believe they make a Dark version of it for more$$$.  100 watts per channel.

The VAC is reaaly nice. Even the older Avatar can be had for around $3400 used. Use the extra cash to take your neighbors to lunch. 

Let us know what you end up with. "Pump up the Volume..."

The Octave V80 ALL TUBES (Yay) is the only one on your list with

all your requirements (except optional requirement: dac)

1. headphones

2. tape loop

3. additional processor loop

4. optional phono (choose MM or MC, not both)

Seems to be a winner

..............................................

audio research, has a dac, has remote balance which I love, mute ((not sure Octave remote has mute) but I don’t see either tone controls or tape loop for an equalizer

Modwright

PrimaLuna

Denon 110 Anniversary

The VAC is an excellent choice.  Provides the watts noted in your search, excellent sounds quality, and a phono section that performs at a very high level.  

@noromance

That’s a good list, thanks. I’ve owned that same Vincent and a very similar Rogue, years ago.

I already considered that BAT and the Roger’s High Fidelity but neither can be had with a phono stage, from what I found. Same with PrimaLuna. 

@elliottbnewcombjr

Umm, I already found 4 models that meet the power requirements.

New speaker shopping is way too much work; I really don’t have time for that. BTW, my current tube amp is 60wpc and I used to have a Rogue that was around 90. There are plenty available.

This has some info. You don't need to max out your budget.

Just hopping around looking, not much produces 80 wpc.

I have an alternate idea:

Phase 1: Sell the existing speakers, buy efficient speakers

You probably lose some money, but you will save more by getting yourself down into the 35-40-45 wpc category.

Phase 2: New Or Used 35-40-45 wpc tube integrated. reduced cost/weight/heat; increased placement options (remote beam)

Lots of Vintage with all the desired features, more affordable new choices, .....