Looking for advise regarding Rogue M180’s
Last week a friend gifted me a pair of Rogue M180’s. They were sold as 180’s and I received them from the original owner. Im guessing them to be 10-12 years old. They were used when first purchased for about 5 years sparingly. Since then they have resided on a flat dolly in a spare bedroom. The amps still have the original Phillips ECG 5751 and 5814A’s installed. The original EH KT 90’s are loose in a box with an octet of low hour Gold Lion KT-77’s . Years back when in use the owner contacted Rogue and stated they were too powerful for his room size and speaker selection. Rogue responded by recommending the GL KT77’s and suggesting that he could also lower the bias from 40ma to 30ma. I was provided the supporting emails dated September 2019. Here is my situation followed by my questions. I currently have a low power single ended system with Zu speakers. Second, the owner stated one might have a hum, but was not sure. He’s on his second complete system since and has a room full of gear he’s lost interest in and his memory is vague. Also back then he had power issues with his provider and stated they installed a new transformer on the street. So my questions are first, checking for any hum. My intent is to take a single amp and connect one JBL 4312 to it. Install the KT77’s, plug it in and listen for a hum and bias the tubes. Do I need the input open or shorted ? Or something else ? Second, the 12AX7’s being replaced by the 5751. I see there’s a mu of 70 Vs 100 with the 12AX7. Does that effect the overall output power of the amp or just change tone and distortion? FWIT I have 6-7 pairs of NOS Telefunken 12AU7’s but zero 12AX7’s. My intent is to check for hum without causing any damage. If a hum exists, I’ll ship to Rogue. In the short term if I’m successful, I’ll test drive with my existing Rogue RP-1, the JBL 4312A’s that are mint and the 26” Sound Anchor stands I have with them. And I’d like to get some Telefunkens to put in the 12AX7 positions. After that, there’s a pristine Rogue Hera that’s been inspected and re tubed by Rogue that I’ll ask to purchase before I start looking for speakers worthy of the pairing. Also I emailed Rogue for support a week ago and have not received a response. Thanks in advance for any feedback and my apologies for grammatical spaghetti, but I’m limited to an IPhone. Cheers , Mike B.
Make sure all the tubes are seated. Plug the amps in and connect them to your jbl speakers. Power them on with no signal flowing thru. Let them warm up for 30-45min and adjust bias. Leave them on and see how the bias holds. If no noise try them out. As to Rogue support…just call them. My experience with these guys is very positive. I dealt with Nick and Mark there when I had RP1 and ST100. Good sounding electronics. Best of luck. |
First off - WOW, nice gift!! The og owner’s claim that the M180 was "too powerful" is a bit odd, and Rogue’s response to them was equally odd. These amps have a very high gain, and that is the main issue when paired to high efficiency speakers. Compounding this - Rogue doesn’t make the quietest tube gear. Yeah - hums and tub hisses are quite common with high sensitivity speakers. If it’s not noticeable from your seating position then don’t worry about it. I’ve long said Rogue should use a 2nd reference system with high efficiency sepakers, so they can hear some of these issues. That said, Rogue can still make some great sounding and high-value tube gear. It’s perfectly fine to turn on the amp with input open / unconnected. Just make sure it’s hooked up to a speaker - DON’T turn a tube amp on without a load connected to its binding posts. Also don’t connect or disconnect its inputs while it’s on. The 5751 sub is a good choice for a couple reasons: 1. they have a different sound quality than 12AX7, with more precise imaging at the expense of image size. 2. they have a lower gain by about 1-2dB, which will help in your case. You can also sub 12AY7 and lose another dB or 2 of gain. The KT77 sub (and bias adjustment) is fine, but not strictly necessary. The EH KT90 tubes sound a little bright and lean / dry through mids, so you might well prefer GL KT77. An RP-1 is not anywhere near the performance level of those M180. The Hera is one of my favorite preamps ever - but it’s got a very high gain, so you’ll probaly be cutting its gain knob all the way down. And you’ll still probably be hearing some tube-rush "hisss" through your high sensitivity speakers - even from your sitting position. You’ll also hear that trademark "pting-tashhhhhh" sound of its 6H30 tubes when they’re disturbed (mute / unmute). But past that, I think it should be an amazing sounding combo! I preferred Hera to their current flagship RP-9. The RP-9’s sound reminded me a lot of those EH KT90 - not bad, but not my thing. |
@audphile1 , Thank you for your input, your experience with a vast amount of gear and your straightforward recommendations are always appreciated. @mulveling , I was hopeful you’d respond and save me sending a PM. I’ve long read your advice and admired your equipment. Your knowledge of tube gear including Rogue is greatly appreciated. Your comments on small tube sound characteristics has been invaluable to me. I was concerned about the input being open Vs closed by means of a shorted input connector. Having read online I noted in guitar amp forums it was stated to short the input when checking for hum. As I’m planning on using the JBL’s, I’m not too concerned with the noise I get with high dB speakers like my Zu and Klipsch. I also didn’t realize the the Hera had such a high amount of gain and that would explain the original owners complaints of too much power. FWIT the original owner was formerly a dealer that changed careers and went into estate law. I know he carried Rogue, Modwright, Acoustic Zen, and Dali. He once loaned me a Modwright KWI 200. After the Rogue gear he had a full quiver of Bryston with Dali stand mounts and JL Fathom subs. His current system is Macintosh and B&W’s. His room is treated with GIK items. I couldn’t live with those B&W’s, the tweeters are deadly. |
I'm not sure I have much to add, mulveling covered a lot of ground. As he said, some hiss is normal with high efficiency speakers. I think I had Klipsch speakers when I had my M180s and if you got close to the tweeters, you could hear some hiss, but while listening it wasn't noticeable. Also consider the KT120 power tubes and give the triode / ultralinear modes a try, and try both the 8 and 4 ohm taps. I preferred ultralinear, but triode might be better with the Zu speakers. It's worth experimenting. And yes, nice gift! Having said that, if it was me, once you are confident they are working properly, I would consider flipping them and getting lower powered tube amps that are better suited to your speakers. |
@big_greg , thanks for your input. I have Zu, Klipsch, and JBL 4312A’s that are in excellent condition. My front end is Innuos, Schiit Yiggy, Thorens TT with Grado Prestige. I’m currently running the Rogue RP-1 with Telefunken G73-R’s , vibration isolation under footers and upgraded power cord. I’ve reached the limits of what it can do without adding a separate phono stage. I have a Dennis Had Inspire Sep amp with 1/2 doz NOS rectifier tubes, 8 NOS input tubes, and about 10 pairs of power tubes from NOS GEC to KT-150’s. I rotate that with a modded Akitika SS 50wpc amp. My long plan is an entire new back end with a better pre and some speakers that like that much power. I will not connect them with the ZU’s at all. I was considering new tube monos when I was gifted the M180’s. I live about 2 hours south of Quicksilver and was considering the KT’s as Mike recommended at least 100 wpc for my JBL’s. However as a near field studio monitor, they are not that musical. If this works out I’ll be looking at some speakers in the $10K region which is a lot for my modest income. And again your comments are appreciated. Regards, Mike B. |
I has some of Quicksilver's Horn monoblocks for a while and they were really good with my Klipsch Chorus speakers. I was most impressed by how quiet they were. I moved away from tube amps, as much as I like the sound, I got tired of the issues with tubes, the heat, and cost of replacement tubes. I like the combination of solid state amps and a tube pre. My current setup is PS Audio M1200 monoblocks, Herron Audio VTSP-360 preamp, and Gershman Studio Xdb speakers. The Gershmans are pretty hard to drive and the M1200s handle them well. If you are going to go down the nearfield monitor route, it's hard to go wrong with either a LS3/5 variant or Harbeth P3ESR. |
Congratulations on such an exciting gift. I have read a lot of positive comments on the Rogue amplifiers on these forums. Finally, the curiosity got the best of me to try one of these out when a good deal was found on the Apollo Dark monos. I was a long time user of the CAT JL-3 mono amps. These throw out a lot of heat. And with the huge number of tubes, they are costly to maintain every few years. I have heard nothing in my system, tube or SS, that comes even close. But finally, I found a SS amp, the Symphonic Line (SL) Kraft 300 amp that is truly impressive. The SL product line is quite special. It does so many things beautifully, but the CAT amps are in a different ballpark, in dynamics, clarity and openness. The CATs are not tubey-sounding amps. I’m sure these 20 year old amps still hold their own against all the latest ARC, CJ, etc., of today. I have been running the SL Kraft for about a year with great success and only two issues: 1) the SL amp sounds horrible until a long warmup, many hours to a day, and keeping it on all the time gets pricey! ; 2) I miss the "magic" that comes with a tube amp. Enter the Rogue amps. After living with the Apollos for two weeks, I can share some setup details. Mine came with TungSol KT-90s. They came with Amperex 12ax7, and unknown 12au7’s. A number of years ago I spend a lot of tube rolling to find the coveted triplet (12ax7, 12au7, 6922) for the CAT amps. Replacing the Amperex with the 5751 (I can’t see the brand on the glass) I had used on the CAT was significant; there was a bite in the upper mids/lower trebles that was gone thanks to the 5751. The sound was good but I had one more test - replace the 12au7 pairs with my all-time favorite here - the RCA 12BH7. Every time I have used this tube in 12au7 sockets for DAC, Line Stage, amps, it always reigns supreme and it did not let me down here either. The mids were much more smooth with greater decays. After an hour or so, I was so impressed for the value of these amps. They locked onto the SoundLab A1s incredibly well. I use the 8-ohm terminals as I always have when I had a choice. With all the success, I had/have some issues that I did not have with the SL Kraft or the CATs. With the Apollos, I suddenly had a ground-loop hum. I have three circuits in the room, one each (different phases) for when I use the cat amps, and the third for the rest of the system. I never had hum issues with this. Using the SL amp’s both power cords into a circuit on the opposite phase of the system never caused a problem. But this same setup caused hum out of the right speaker with the Apollos. I changed to my backup power cords and the problem was gone. Back to the first cords and the hum was back. I fussed with cable routing, cable lifters, etc. Finally I threw in a cheater plug and the problem was resolved. But I don’t like to have to do this. So you might need to be extra careful with cable layout, cables crossing/touching, circuits, phases, etc. With the Apollos, I have more tube noise vs. with the SL amp, but once the music starts, you can’t hear it. And I tried the Triode mode. This was quite disappointing as I expected an even more lush sound, but it was too mellow and the strong bass foundation much diminished. So you can play with that switch as well to see what mode works for you. I am back to a fully tubed system. And I have to say that I love it. Enjoy the 180s. John |
@jafox , Hi thanks for the detailed advice, I’m going to hook them up tomorrow. I returned home this afternoon from a trip to see Collective Soul in Las Vegas. I have a strong suspicion that the previous owners hum issue was circuit related. He had a dedicated equipment room adjacent to his listening room that housed some of his theater gear, a server, and his reference system amps. He utilized long runs of Acoustic Zen cables to go from his Hera to the M180’s, then another long run to his speakers and subs. As you noted room heat became an issue so he put the amps in a separate climate controlled room. That room was a new build and had a wiring issue and the power company’s transformer had to be changed. As mentioned above I have a modest single ended low power system. One plus is I’ve had the opportunity to tube roll before prices exploded. I have about 6 pairs of Tekefunkens including Tektronix and the black G 73-R’s, Seimens CCa , Silver plated Seimens, RCA tripple mica. In 6922 numerous NOS American and my favorite Tekefunken E88CC. I’m wondering if the KT 90’s you have are EH not Tung Sol. I like the new KT 120 and 150 tubes. I very much like the GL KT 88’s. One of my all time favorites is the Svetlana Winged C, but they’re hard to come by and mostly factory seconds. They have the sweetness of the Gold Lion KT88 and the low end of the Tung Sol KT -120’s. I needed to know about an open loop on input , which has been answered. But you guys have given me tremendous advise regarding input tubes. I do not own any 12AX7’s or 12AY7’s or any of the lower gain tubes. The advise I’ve received will help me with my choices. After this, I will shop for an affordable balanced pre. Unfortunately my quest for the appropriate speakers will be on hold as my wife is purchasing 2-3 slabs of Quartz tomorrow for our pending kitchen remodel. She’s looking at Taj Mahal quartz, Thermidor appliances and oak flooring. My dreams of Big Boy speakers will have to be put on hold . Also I’m very humbled and honored that the three of you have taken the time to guide me. Regards , Mike B. |
@buellrider97 My last set of Apollo monos (I had the og verison first, before Darks) had a minor hum on one side, into 96dB Tannoys. It was minor enough at seating position to ignore. As someone else mentioned, once the music starts it's gone and that's often good enough for me. I'd say there's a higher incidence of Rogue gear having little stray hums here and there, but frankly the hum and/or hiss is going to rear its head at some point when exploring tube gear, no matter the brand(s). Rogue tube gear generally gets you lots of gain and killer dynamics, bass, and slam - at some expense to noise floor and a "drier" midrange than most tube gear. I said to test w/ inputs open, and that's always worked for me. I don't find shorting necessary; it should be quiet enough even open, at the amp level (nothing downstream to further amplify stray RF/EMI pickups). But it would be fine to test inputs shorted too, if you choose. Yes, the modern KT90 has the EH label, not Tung-Sol. Rogue never shipped the older Ei KT90 tubes - they used EH KT88 back in the 2000's before they started getting some REALLY bad batches from Russia and switched to KT90 which were fine (the EH KT88 issues have long since been resolved - nice tube). I'm generally a big fan of Tung-Sol KT120, but Rogue's big tube monos seem to benefit more from the GL KT88's sweet midrange (and KT88 in general). I often prefer KT120 in VAC amps, but usually KT88 in Rogue. You just have to try for yourself - these Rogue amps facilitate quite a range of power tubes with their per-tube bias trimpots - I LOVE this feature! Again, great "score", and what a great friend - enjoy! Try to give the Hera a listen. It's not for everyone, but will always be one of my top favorite preamps, and I think it's a killer combined with M180 or Apollos. |
@buellrider97 - I goofed. No idea why I entered KT90 tubes above. The Apollos came with 12 KT120 TungSol tubes . I saw a tube site a couple weeks ago with a great sale on KT88's. But I thought I'd enjoy the Apollos for awhile before I look to compare other power tubes. Find a preamp with the sound you like rather than worry if it is balanced or not. And the IC that you use between the preamp and the M180s will greatly determine whether you hear the amps' capabilities or not. |
@tomic601 Hi, thanks for the input. I have the factory packaging and if a repair is needed I’ll ship to them. That being said , I really enjoyed your system pictures. You have some cool collectibles. I love your Mac amps and the other retro gear. Nice mount, it doesn’t look like a Rainbow, may I ask what it is ? I float tube fly fish at Lake Almanor in the fall. I’ve fished Monterey Bay my whole life, and currently pursue Tuna from San Diego. One last question, do you fly ? My son in law flew a Rhino at LAS Lemoore. Now he’s a T-45 instructor in Florida. Between fishing, hunting, target shooting and motorcycles I’m lagging on audio gear. Father Time is catching up with me and I have a lot more time for listening to music. Regards, Mike B. |
@mulveling @jafox Well I have them both powered up. The inputs are open and they’re biased at 40ma and holding steady. They are absolutely dead quiet. However I have encountered an issue. The first amp was great, no hum, and no popping. The bias was at zero for all four tubes so I set it at 30, let it sit for another 30 minutes and set at 40. When I flipped any of the four meter switches or the Triode/ Ultra linear switch, it was quiet. After an hour I hit the off button and it quietly shut down. However on the second amp it started with a very slight hum that went away. The 4 bias switches caused the amp to make a popping sound as did the Triode/ Ultra Linear switch. After about an hour the hum went away and only 2 of the bias switches cause a popping sound. When I pushed the off button it made a moderately loud pop and shut down. I came back after letting them cool and started both of them again. Both dead quiet, bias good. But I still get a static sounding pop from two bias switches on one side, the same sound when I flip the Triode/ Ultra Linear switch either way. And the pop upon shutdown. I’m leaving them powered on overnight. After all, they’ve been unused for 6-7 years. Tomorrow I’ll call Rogue as they never responded to my email. I want to get their thoughts before I add a source. I’ll post my findings. Regards, Mike B. |
Hi Mike - I understand wanting to return the amps to Rogue if they have issues. There are 3 systems in tge virtual section, i’m guessing you looked at my vintage gear.. The fish is a Lake Erie Steelhead my Dad caught on very light Walleye gear - quite memorable… It sounds like we chase the same fish. i mostly fish the wild west coast of Vancouver Island. Thank the son in law for his service. in a prior life i helped build T-45 and iron out a few other aerospace widgets. it sounds like you stay busy - chase the music also !,,, I’m in Carlsbad Winters if you get this way… Jim |
Popping/scratchy sounds on engaging the bias switches, and triode/ultra mode (I generally prefer ultralinear and leave it there), are normal. They’re loud & clear on 96dB Tannoys, but not anwhere near danger or concern for tweeters. It’s also typical on shutoff, though it shouldn’t be too intensely loud. The hum on one side that dissipates over time is odd, I haven’t encountered that one before! Worth asking Rogue about. Definitely call ’em up to chat! Though there’s absolutely nothing here that’s too concerning to me - I’d have taken those amps to town and back by now lol. The years in storage doesn’t concern me too much either - there’s nothing in these amps that has proven unstable or problematic, excepting any 2000s era EH KT88 - which were before the M180’s time anyways (M150's got hit by this). I’ve had one Tung-Sol KT120 lose vaccum in storage - its getter flash turns chalky white so it’s easy to spot those. |
@mulveling @audphile1 @jafox , we’ll here’s the latest. Got involved with helping my elderly mother and missed my window to call Rogue. However I added a streamer and a dac/pre combo that’s single ended from a headphone system. The amps had some hum, but it’s budget single ended stuff. Anyway played some music and when I cranked it up the right side had a garbled background sound that sounded like static and a dying transistor ( just my description). Switched sides on input, then switched sides on speakers , it’s definitely the amp. Also with it all hooked together, I noticed a slight ground loop issue. When I muted the source and turned off the good amp , there was a mild pop from the bad amp. I’m wondering if there might be something failing in the power supply filter that causes noise but the amp still functions. Also I went to Rogue’s website for the owners Manuel and there’s only the M-150. The 180, does not have the ground loop switch like the 150. Also I tried the 4 ohm tap and when I powered one on it sounded dead. I immediately shut it off as not to cook a tranny. Another reason to need a Manuel , are both sets of terminals connected? Anyway I’ll try Rogue tomorrow, but again, any input is appreciated. Cheers, Mike B. |
Todays update. First off thanks for your guidance, second they’re going to Rogue for either repair or possibly a Dark Upgrade. Bill at Rogue spent 30 minutes on the phone with me while the tech listened. The amp in question went into a nasty screeching oscillating that scared everyone. They also recommended using Pirate Ship for shipping fees. Thanks to all, Mike B. |
@buellrider97 Happy to hear of your communications with Rogue. They got back to me quickly for the three times I had questions on the Apollos. As for paying for the Dark upgrade, compare the cost of updating your amps to Dark vs. selling your amps once they are running well, and seek a good deal on a used pair of Dark. Here is one example, from a dealer no less. Notice the Make Offer option. |
@jafox , Good morning, I appreciate your idea. The bad amp definitely needs repair. I had it at best playing but with an underlying distortion that sounded like a bad driver tube. But it’s more than that because when I swapped out tubes and restarted it, the amp went bonkers and started screeching and popping at about 90 db. It scared my dogs it was so bad. It happened 3 times, 2 of which I was on speaker phone with Rogue’s staff. A ballpark figure to fix it ( guesstimate ) is about $500. A Dark upgrade would negate the repair charge and run me $2500. As great minds think alike I’ll get the Dark upgrade. Since the amps were free, it pencils out better than the ones you suggested. Plus mine are silver and match my system and excluding the current issue are in excellent condition. Cheers , Mike. |
Hey just saw your thread, Sorry to hear of your prob, I had something similar with a 120 few years ago They fixed it promptly. I have the Apollo Darks, As far as updating to the Darks I would Hold off Thats $$ and not a day and night difference. Maybe sell yours and pick up a good deal on some darks, Actually the apollos have been coming up for great prices All the best >im a rogue have had the 120's 150's Zeus and apollo's Good luck to you |
@buellrider97 Oof, sorry about the issue with your M180. Guess I jumped the gun giving the "all clear". Yeah, Rogue can take care of ’em. @hiend2 brought up an interesting point. I’ve owned both Apollo (og non-Dark) and then Apollo Dark (superseded my non-Darks). Frankly, I got exactly the same enjoyment out of both. I could’ve (and probably should’ve) happily stuck with og-Apollos. They had the same sonic DNA. And I’m not sure I always like the sonic effect of exotic parts (caps, resistors). He’s also right about Zeus and Apollos going for bargains on used markets. They’re hard to move, because they occupy a tier above Rogue’s normal market segment, shipping hassles, and because most audiophiles get nervous about that many power tubes (not me lol). M180’s on the used market don’t go for much less $, and their used prices have been relatively stable for a very long time. Most buyers cap out at M180s for Rogue, before they move on to other (more expensive) brands. That said, everyone’s different - my buddy upgraded his Zeus (non-Dark) to my Apollo Darks, and says it’s been a substantial upgrade for him (Vandersteen 5a Carbons). Maybe M180’s also need the "Dark" upgrades more than Apollos did? I still kinda wish I’d held only my og-Apollos, for as cheap as they go. I sold mine for $4K and that was 5 - 6 years ago. |
I can go cheap and fix one for $500. That leaves the other unchecked. So if do both say $1k. They were built in 2012, and I’m thinking fresh parts that are also an upgrade is prudent and worthwhile. I’ll probably ask the previous owner to sell me the Hera, and it’s been to the shop, serviced and re tubed. Also they were obtained at dealers cost in 2012, and I anticipate a bargain price. And with all the original packaging, I’ll surely break even if I sell down the road. That being said, what speakers mate well for Classic Rock in a room 20x30 with a 15’ ceiling ? Thanks again gentlemen. |
Geez, I need to get some new friends! Congrats. Nothing to add, except that I'm listening to my Rogue Atlas/Perseus combo right now and it sounds great. I would definitely be in for some higher power Rogue gear if it comes my way. Interesting journey, definitely keep us posted. I'd like to hear where this goes. |
@audphile1 , you have some really nice gear and I appreciate your advise. I’m budget limited and am curious about a $5k limit and a $10k limit, used ok. Also I’ve never owned tube amps this powerful. I do a lot of looking on line , but lack anywhere to listen. An audio show is much needed. Having Zu with my low power gear leads me to be curious about Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, or Volti. But in another direction maybe something tall like Focal or Legacy. Vandersteen is nearby but I’m not sure if they’re open to the public. I guess I’m like the guy that goes to the gun shop and when asked “ What do I want “, I respond by saying “ Not sure what do I need “. So I’m all ears. Respectfully, Mike B. |
@buellrider97 I can recommend the Dark upgrade, if it’s anything like the Dark upgrade to my Rogue ST100. Before the upgrade, I thought the amp was ‘almost there;’ after I got it back, I found it WAS there. The difference was subtle, the cost was considerable (30% of purchase price), but I’m happy with it. You might ask what parts were included. I was surprised when I found the upgrade included NOS tubes for the input section. Sounds like you’re having a blast. Good luck with your journey. |
That’s the rub. How much of the Dark improvement was due to the NOS tubes? When I went from original Apollos to Apollo Darks, I transferred over my own NOS tubes, which I like better than Rogue’s NOS selections (Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and RCA cleartop 12AU7). The stock JJs are just awful. The stock Electro Harmonix 12A*7 (which Rogue shipped back in the day, before JJs) were too bright, esepcially with stock EH KT90 of that time. Again, the Dark upgrades may well be more relevant for ST100 and M180. But I definitely remember feeling rather "meh" about my Apollo Dark upgrade. I should've stuck with the og's honestly. |
Because of the friendship / gift connection to the M-180 my opinion is send both in and get Dark upgrade. I would budget for HRS ( or equivalent ) Nimbus couplers under the amps upon return. Of course there are fans of microphonic tubes ( snark ) I have significant seat time w Rogue amps North of the M-180 in combination with various Vandersteen speakers - notably Quattro, 5A ( not the Carbon ) and 7. As @mulveling stated, the M-180 seems to be the imo undeserved cap with audiophiles… it shouldn’t be… again my opinion. I am hesitant to recommend any speaker without knowing room dimensions AND your peak SPL required….. |
@mulveling I suspect most of the performance of the Dark upgrade was in the tubes. My high frequencies sounded clearer, and the bass extension seemed just a bit deeper. Again, I was pleased. It could have all been confirmation bias. I ought to swap the old tubes (which Rogue shipped back with the upgrade) back in, for a ‘scientific’ test, possibly together with another better-trained set of ears. |
Good afternoon gentlemen and thanks for the additional comments. When I was on the phone will Bill at Rogue, he commented that the ST-100 had the greatest performance increase from the Dark option. Prior to receiving the M-180’s I was eying either the ST-100 or the Quicksilver KT’s. However when I inquired about the M-180’s, they were graciously loaded into my truck and I was sent on my way. I’m sure the freshened up Hera can be had for a song, so I’ll just roll with the flow. My thought on the Dark upgrade is, I love Telefunkens and have multiple pairs already with the exception of the 12AX7’s. Also the Cardas terminals are not a must either. I’m going to ask if I can purchase the Dark upgrade minus the tubes and the binding posts. I have a Quad of G73-R Tekefunken 12AU7’s and a quad of Siemens silver plate 12AU’7’s. It will be interesting to see if that’s doable. As far as speakers, my room is 20’ across the front wall. It is 28’ deep and the back is partially open to the kitchen and two hallways. The left wall is 14’ and the right wall is 11’. The ceiling is peaked at about 18’ and runs the entire length front to rear. I can place the speaker baffles as far off the front wall as need be. I have no idea of SPL, and I’m ignorant of tubes Vs SS in regards to room pressure. The previous owner loaned me a Modwright KWI 200 and my JBL’s on 26” Sound Anchor stands were able to shake the room. FWIT I didn’t like the JBL’s with SS and even with tubes they’re just not musical. They’re meant for studio mixing, but at the moment I have them. After I get speakers they can go to my brothers home mixing room. My current system is perfect for listening alone or with my wife. The imaging is excellent, the soundstage is wide, strings and vocals are sweet. It’s almost like headphones as the sweet spot is perfect for one. I can listen to Diane Krall and feel like she’s in the room. However with the M-180’s I’d like to feel the music in my body when I listen to Pink Floyd. When I get this up and going I’m going to cue up my MFSL copy of Supertramp Crime of the Century and share with my neighbors. I hope my limited ability to articulate my wants is understandable. Respectfully, Mike B. |
The plot thickens ! 😆 I was contacted yesterday by the original owner and apparently he tossed all the packing materials. At least he has the cages. The good news is Rogue sells the complete packing units at $60. each. I haven’t priced it out yet as Bill is out of the office this week, but I can get a quote for a partial Dark upgrade. My logic is I already have the tubes and I’m not that concerned about the upgraded binging posts. So I’m thinking of upgrading the boards, which gets them both restored to better than new. Any additional comments are appreciated. Regards , Mike B. |
Nice, factory packing for $60 each is well worth it! Many audio companies charge HUNDREDS for the same quality of packing. Example: boxes for my Clearaudio Master Innovation table cost almost $900, ugh. This is a key advantage of Rogue - they won’t try to rip you off. I previously neglected to weigh in on speakers. Well, I’ve been a Tannoy DC (dual-concentric drivers) fan for 20 years and that’s what I’ve used, across several models. I haven’t tried the new Chinese-made stuff, but amazing sounding Scottish Tannoys can be had for good deals on the used market, if shipping can be figured out. Even some of those late 90s - 2000s models (including pro models) are bangers. There are a few models I’d avoid like the oddball DC10A, which were voiced wrong imo (bright). You can also look at Fyne but the deals on older Tannoy are great. The DC drivers come in "tulip" (ceramic) and "pepperpot" (alnico) variants, with the latter being much more expensive, but the tulips are great in their own right. Tulips are usually better behaved in treble and well-balanced overall; pepperpot/alnicos have a super vibrant midrange. There are lots of popular vintage Tannoys too (all pepperpots), which I never waded into. Fyne has made a new version of the DC they call "iso-flare" and I haven’t heard it. The few Tannoy-Fyne comparisons out there usually prefer Fyne (possibly upgrade bias) but also attribute them as being "more detailed", which honestly sends me running in the other direction lol. As usual, we just need to hear for ourselves to make sense of it. Sonically the pairing of Tannoys with any Rogue tube amp, and Hera preamp, is excellent. The newer RP-9 preamp's treble was not a good mix with pepperpot tweeters imo (too much, ouch, etc). Tannoys are moderately efficient so the high gain of Rogue tubes does come into play, but I’ve always tolerated it. I also hear the pairing of Vandersteen with Rogues is superb! |
Been following your thread. Good luck to you and rogue service is great. As you found out on the phone call they take ll this stuff very seriously. I have an issue with the old 120 put a output tube in incorrectly due to a broken off center pin. So I smoked the one amp I called rogue they directed me what to look for and I actually fixed the amp with a couple of resistors, I sent the amp to them for a checkout of course Ivve been thru the line 120, 150, Zeus, now appllos, I upgraded the Caps to the Dark level here and Am very Happy with them, Rogue will gey you there whatever you choose, Great crew there Really. Interesting of what they find and you decisions are, cant wait to hear. |
@hiend2 , Thanks for you’re input. I started to pull the cover on the one that’s having issues just to have a look. Unfortunately the screw didn’t want to budge and started to loose the head, so I stopped. I didn’t want to start whacking them with a mallet and you certainly can’t heat them like we do on motorcycles, so I just left it alone. Last month I received my Yiggy back from Schiit due to a failed USB card. And it was in a new chassis as the tech broke off the screws holding the board to the chassis. Considering I want the boards updated and brought up to spec they’re best just shipped. I would like your input on power tubes and speakers. I have a relatively fresh set of GL KT-77’s and in my mind they’re glorified EL-34’s. Down the road I’ll be considering KT-120’s and GL KT-88’s. So any input especially speakers is appreciated. Regards , Mike B. |
@mulveling Hi all, here are todays updates. I received my boxes from Rogue and will pack and ship to Rogue for the repair and the Dark upgrades. Also I’d like to mention that I obtained the Hera II from the owner of the amps. Back when the amp had a problem the owner shipped the Hera to Rogue for a checkup and it received a clean bill of health. A fresh set of Sovtek tubes were installed that are graded by Upscale Audio. I’m not sure if Rogue or the owner replaced them. Also included with the Hera are the original set of tubes and the metal remote along with factory packaging. The Hera looks like new and hasn’t been used since the trip to the factory. I paid $2K for it, which seemed pretty fair. Another interesting fact is the Dark upgrade no longer includes NOS small tubes. They are using better grade new production which I’ll still replace. I’m planning on all 6 small tubes being NOS Telefunkens. Regards , Mike B. |
Hey, cool your doing the dark upgrades! I listen to the Apollos regularly have them in a Bi-amp setup them on top and am amazed on the added resolution I get over the krell monos That I can swap in. So Factory no longer send NOS input tubes thats okay, think they had Clear top rca and teles. I have over here Nice sweet 5751's sound quite good in there have them all as well kt88 Gold Lion kt90 Electro and kt120 Electro all have a certain signature the Gold lion are smoothest. Please keep us informed on your factory upgrades! |
Cool! Man that Hera was a great deal, I would’ve bough it for sure. They’re hard to sell, but the sound quality you get for $2K is amazing. A hidden gem. IMO it showcases the 6H30 sound at its best - caveats aside (high gain, microphonics), in some ways I like it better than the much more expensive Audio Research Reference 6 (which also is a great manifestation of 6H30 sound). I just didn’t get that kind of "6H30" sound from the RP-9; must be the MOSFETs. I was certainly expecting it, and it wasn’t there - kind of a bummer. Interesting about the report on Rogue’s Dark tubes - they couldn’t keep a large NOS stash around forever, so it’s to be expected. I think it’s more fun to roll your own, anways. 5751 can be a fun sub for the 12AX7 slots - they generally have a more precise, tigther image and better "clarity" and smoothness than 12AX7. 12AX7 tend have a bigger image and dynamic sound. At least that was what I found when rolling my original Apollos. Mazda Silver plate 12AX7 gave the best of both worlds, at the expense of a little extra treble energy (strangely enough, they have "T" plates like more 5751). Don’t get the silver-plate 5751 though - they’re brightness monsters. As aforementioned, you can always sub 6189 and 5814 for 12AU7 slot. 5963 is usually too microphonic as a 12AU7 sub for preamp / phono amps, but it’s OK to use them here! The RCA 5963 are a nice tube for cheap. 12BH7 are more dynamic sounding and draw more heater current, but OK to use here too. Enjoy! Hope your really like the Hera w/ 180 Draks. I know I would! I’m playing with Stereo 100 (non-Dark) and Hera in my 2nd rig right now. The ST100 is just a hero for its price point; such a fun amp and lots of tube rolling options - got Tung-Sol 7581A power tubes in there currently. |
@buellrider97 message received, I replied with a separate message as Agon has the Cc policy I wont use nor care to for security reasons. Anyhow, reading the thread, IF you did decide to send the Rouge in, and you mentioned your others system with Zu's. Not sure if you plan to use those speakers or not. If yes, if you can, I'd stick with the Rogue recommendations to send, test, and dial in those amps with KT77s, [I'm a KT120 tube user btw], but like KT77s for this. If I could reconfigure my larger QS Mono 120s, dialed down plate voltage, and bias more, i'd likely be running KT77s instead as I'm like EL34s with a jolt, like KT77s. If you do send/sent them in - they can bias the input, outputs, and check for noise across the board. Getting the noise way down is key over which vintage tubes to use any more. Properly set up, tested, you could do fine with new/re-issue tubes imo. This granted you don't need extra power, no need for KT120s, go KT77s, |
@mulveling. Hi, thanks for more info. FWIT, Bill at Rogue has the ST-100 Dark and Megapan 1.7’s. He likes the Dark upgrade and commented that it’s huge on the ST-100. The Hera has graded Upscale Sovtek’s but the owner can’t recall how many hours on them. Since they’re the second set I’ll use them for now. Those silver Mazda’s interest me, but they are expensive. I have 4 Siemens Silver 12AU7’s I might try after the Telefunkens. My only concern is the middle tube as I have zero 12AX7’s. I want to get a pair of Tekefunkens and a pair of the lower mu replacements, not sure which and I’m reluctant to go on a spending spree. All my stuff is single ended and Bill recommend to use my current favorite cables. After I get going I’ll consider balanced. I have a loom of Morrow, and they have a generous upgrade offer. I’ll be looking at going balanced with Level 6 stuff. But they really take 400 hours and that sucks. So with the M-180’s coming back with a full set of current factory tubes, I’ll start there. Regards, Mike. |
@decooney Hi , thanks for your input and I did receive the cc. The M-180’s currently have GL KT-77’s. I borrowed a tube tester and they are so low it advised replace on all eight. I tested the original KT-90’s and they are at about 80%, but one is dead. I tried the GL and JJ KT-77’s in my Had. I like the GL’s. My concern is how much bass they will make. I really didn’t plan on using the ZU’s but with KT’77’s could be pretty interesting. I’m hoping to be happy with the JBL’s, but they’re not a long term speaker. Im hoping to get a big wide sound that I can shake the house and annoy the neighbors. I’ll relive my youth and then look for something more refined. Those big Tannoy’s interest me but I guess I’ll have to go to Upscale to audition them. So keep it coming gentlemen and I’ll post my updates. Regards Mike B. |
To @buellrider97 I just read the specs of the 4312A, https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/4312a-information Apologize, I missed which speaker you would use above with the Rogue amp, and assumed you were using the efficient ZUs, and flew right by the 4312A part, doh! While I like the KT77s for lower power amp usage and the idea of efficient speakers used with them, and reading your comment about "shake the house and annoy the neighbors" to "relieve the youth phase", LOL, I'd probably flip-flop on my comments above and agree to have Rouge set and check with Tung Sol KT120s then. My own KT120s can sound smooth playing with bias a little and using the right interconnects with sources and such, fwiw. |
@decooney , No problem, I overlook the fine print often. The 4312’s are a true studio monitor which is not a forgiving speaker. The specks JBL gives are way to low for power requirements. They are happy at a minimum 200 wpc solid state. I was considering Quicksilver before I went low power and Mike Sanders stated they need 100 wpc with tubes. At the time the KT monos were 50-60 watts ? He strongly recommended the 100 watt monos. I went a different direction and was going to get the current KT’s and run KT-120’s or 150’s but the Rogues became available. I tried the JBL’s with the Modwright KWI 200 we discussed and it drove them well. However the SQ was not enjoyable as the midrange glare and the Ti tweeters were way too bright. Prior to that I ran them with an inexpensive 30 wpc Antique Sound Labs 30 wpc integrated with Winged C EL 34’s and Tungsram 12AU7’s. The SQ was great but way underpowered. Anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. That Modwright KWI was an early one and lacked a DAC that appeared later. I didn’t ask , but my buddy still might have it. He just kept buying gear and storing the used due to lack of interest. It’s been idle longer than this Rogue gear. The Hera was on a storage shelf in his home gym with other gear. His gym had 4 Dali bookshelves wall mounted with a built in passive sub and room correction. He has a theater in his living room and stereo in his outdoor shower. It’s always entertaining to visit him. And no I didn’t try the shower. 😆 Cheers, Mike |
There are several different versions of Quicksilver tube amplifiers referred to as "Monos", older models with speaker screw strips, and tube regulation, later binding posts added for speakers, and tube regulation pulled out. Those were about 60-80w max then. Later the next size transformer versions came out about 10 years ago, with newer and different switches [on front] started, in the 450v plate voltage range. You have to look at the transformers, power caps, power switch to ID them. Then came the largest transformers units, largest power caps in the 100w range. Then the most powerful "Monos" with higher plate voltage [650v] specifically designed for KT150 power tubes [this is what I have, no longer made]. I run either KT120s or K150s in mine but cannot run KT88s or smaller opt tubes, will burn them up faster with that higher plate voltage, on the edge for KT88s, and no EL34s or KT77s. The larger Mono 120s I have is only designed with extra voltage fire to run the larger opt tubes in their best operating window. More power, grunt, drive. My local dealer keeps one pair - uses them to run his largest electrostatic speakers and they do a nice job of it. These will become collectible amps imo, cannot get them new production any more - if that's what you need. Mike told me once they were expensive to make in this dedicated version. My version of the upgraded Mono 120s with KT120s or KT150s would power your JBLs, I’m running larger multi-driver woofer 4ohm speakers now.The Mono 120s barely get warm, nice. From there, before the pandemic start, Mike backed off on the specific big-gun Mono 120s or aka "KT150 monos" like I have, and he [consolidated 3-4 amps] went back to the side-chassis plug ins layout with the ability to run the smaller output tubes too, with lower plate voltage, the newer "KT Monos" you see today. Thought I’d share this since people just see the new amps on his site, others are archived now. Then new series is what I call the new consolidated design KT Monos. Those do not have the largest dual transformers btw, and its a more universal amp for those who like the lower power output tubes. Nice if you like KT77s, KT88s and you can still run the larger KT120s, KT150s yet lower plate voltage. I found you need the higher plate voltage and bias to run KT150s well. |
