First off - WOW, nice gift!!
The og owner’s claim that the M180 was "too powerful" is a bit odd, and Rogue’s response to them was equally odd. These amps have a very high gain, and that is the main issue when paired to high efficiency speakers. Compounding this - Rogue doesn’t make the quietest tube gear. Yeah - hums and tub hisses are quite common with high sensitivity speakers. If it’s not noticeable from your seating position then don’t worry about it. I’ve long said Rogue should use a 2nd reference system with high efficiency sepakers, so they can hear some of these issues. That said, Rogue can still make some great sounding and high-value tube gear.
It’s perfectly fine to turn on the amp with input open / unconnected. Just make sure it’s hooked up to a speaker - DON’T turn a tube amp on without a load connected to its binding posts. Also don’t connect or disconnect its inputs while it’s on.
The 5751 sub is a good choice for a couple reasons: 1. they have a different sound quality than 12AX7, with more precise imaging at the expense of image size. 2. they have a lower gain by about 1-2dB, which will help in your case. You can also sub 12AY7 and lose another dB or 2 of gain.
The KT77 sub (and bias adjustment) is fine, but not strictly necessary. The EH KT90 tubes sound a little bright and lean / dry through mids, so you might well prefer GL KT77.
An RP-1 is not anywhere near the performance level of those M180. The Hera is one of my favorite preamps ever - but it’s got a very high gain, so you’ll probaly be cutting its gain knob all the way down. And you’ll still probably be hearing some tube-rush "hisss" through your high sensitivity speakers - even from your sitting position. You’ll also hear that trademark "pting-tashhhhhh" sound of its 6H30 tubes when they’re disturbed (mute / unmute). But past that, I think it should be an amazing sounding combo! I preferred Hera to their current flagship RP-9. The RP-9’s sound reminded me a lot of those EH KT90 - not bad, but not my thing.
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@buellrider97
Thanks for the kind words. I'm no golden reference, but have been through a lot of gear experiences, and just "trying stuff" has been my passion / hobby for 20 years now :)
My last set of Apollo monos (I had the og verison first, before Darks) had a minor hum on one side, into 96dB Tannoys. It was minor enough at seating position to ignore. As someone else mentioned, once the music starts it's gone and that's often good enough for me. I'd say there's a higher incidence of Rogue gear having little stray hums here and there, but frankly the hum and/or hiss is going to rear its head at some point when exploring tube gear, no matter the brand(s). Rogue tube gear generally gets you lots of gain and killer dynamics, bass, and slam - at some expense to noise floor and a "drier" midrange than most tube gear.
I said to test w/ inputs open, and that's always worked for me. I don't find shorting necessary; it should be quiet enough even open, at the amp level (nothing downstream to further amplify stray RF/EMI pickups). But it would be fine to test inputs shorted too, if you choose.
Yes, the modern KT90 has the EH label, not Tung-Sol. Rogue never shipped the older Ei KT90 tubes - they used EH KT88 back in the 2000's before they started getting some REALLY bad batches from Russia and switched to KT90 which were fine (the EH KT88 issues have long since been resolved - nice tube). I'm generally a big fan of Tung-Sol KT120, but Rogue's big tube monos seem to benefit more from the GL KT88's sweet midrange (and KT88 in general). I often prefer KT120 in VAC amps, but usually KT88 in Rogue. You just have to try for yourself - these Rogue amps facilitate quite a range of power tubes with their per-tube bias trimpots - I LOVE this feature!
@jafox mentioned 12BH7 sub (for 12AU7) and I've long been a fan of that, too. In Apollos it greatly increased the sense of dynamic realism, detail, and immediacy. But some might actually prefer 12AU7 for its laid-back sense of homogeneity and coherence. Just try it for yourself, at some point :)
Again, great "score", and what a great friend - enjoy! Try to give the Hera a listen. It's not for everyone, but will always be one of my top favorite preamps, and I think it's a killer combined with M180 or Apollos.
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Popping/scratchy sounds on engaging the bias switches, and triode/ultra mode (I generally prefer ultralinear and leave it there), are normal. They’re loud & clear on 96dB Tannoys, but not anwhere near danger or concern for tweeters. It’s also typical on shutoff, though it shouldn’t be too intensely loud.
The hum on one side that dissipates over time is odd, I haven’t encountered that one before! Worth asking Rogue about. Definitely call ’em up to chat! Though there’s absolutely nothing here that’s too concerning to me - I’d have taken those amps to town and back by now lol.
The years in storage doesn’t concern me too much either - there’s nothing in these amps that has proven unstable or problematic, excepting any 2000s era EH KT88 - which were before the M180’s time anyways (M150's got hit by this). I’ve had one Tung-Sol KT120 lose vaccum in storage - its getter flash turns chalky white so it’s easy to spot those.
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@buellrider97 Oof, sorry about the issue with your M180. Guess I jumped the gun giving the "all clear". Yeah, Rogue can take care of ’em.
@hiend2 brought up an interesting point. I’ve owned both Apollo (og non-Dark) and then Apollo Dark (superseded my non-Darks). Frankly, I got exactly the same enjoyment out of both. I could’ve (and probably should’ve) happily stuck with og-Apollos. They had the same sonic DNA. And I’m not sure I always like the sonic effect of exotic parts (caps, resistors).
He’s also right about Zeus and Apollos going for bargains on used markets. They’re hard to move, because they occupy a tier above Rogue’s normal market segment, shipping hassles, and because most audiophiles get nervous about that many power tubes (not me lol). M180’s on the used market don’t go for much less $, and their used prices have been relatively stable for a very long time. Most buyers cap out at M180s for Rogue, before they move on to other (more expensive) brands.
That said, everyone’s different - my buddy upgraded his Zeus (non-Dark) to my Apollo Darks, and says it’s been a substantial upgrade for him (Vandersteen 5a Carbons). Maybe M180’s also need the "Dark" upgrades more than Apollos did?
I still kinda wish I’d held only my og-Apollos, for as cheap as they go. I sold mine for $4K and that was 5 - 6 years ago.
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I was surprised when I found the upgrade included NOS tubes for the input section. Sounds like you’re having a blast. Good luck with your journey.
That’s the rub. How much of the Dark improvement was due to the NOS tubes? When I went from original Apollos to Apollo Darks, I transferred over my own NOS tubes, which I like better than Rogue’s NOS selections (Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and RCA cleartop 12AU7). The stock JJs are just awful. The stock Electro Harmonix 12A*7 (which Rogue shipped back in the day, before JJs) were too bright, esepcially with stock EH KT90 of that time.
Again, the Dark upgrades may well be more relevant for ST100 and M180. But I definitely remember feeling rather "meh" about my Apollo Dark upgrade. I should've stuck with the og's honestly.
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Nice, factory packing for $60 each is well worth it! Many audio companies charge HUNDREDS for the same quality of packing. Example: boxes for my Clearaudio Master Innovation table cost almost $900, ugh. This is a key advantage of Rogue - they won’t try to rip you off.
I previously neglected to weigh in on speakers. Well, I’ve been a Tannoy DC (dual-concentric drivers) fan for 20 years and that’s what I’ve used, across several models. I haven’t tried the new Chinese-made stuff, but amazing sounding Scottish Tannoys can be had for good deals on the used market, if shipping can be figured out. Even some of those late 90s - 2000s models (including pro models) are bangers. There are a few models I’d avoid like the oddball DC10A, which were voiced wrong imo (bright). You can also look at Fyne but the deals on older Tannoy are great. The DC drivers come in "tulip" (ceramic) and "pepperpot" (alnico) variants, with the latter being much more expensive, but the tulips are great in their own right. Tulips are usually better behaved in treble and well-balanced overall; pepperpot/alnicos have a super vibrant midrange. There are lots of popular vintage Tannoys too (all pepperpots), which I never waded into. Fyne has made a new version of the DC they call "iso-flare" and I haven’t heard it. The few Tannoy-Fyne comparisons out there usually prefer Fyne (possibly upgrade bias) but also attribute them as being "more detailed", which honestly sends me running in the other direction lol. As usual, we just need to hear for ourselves to make sense of it.
Sonically the pairing of Tannoys with any Rogue tube amp, and Hera preamp, is excellent. The newer RP-9 preamp's treble was not a good mix with pepperpot tweeters imo (too much, ouch, etc). Tannoys are moderately efficient so the high gain of Rogue tubes does come into play, but I’ve always tolerated it.
I also hear the pairing of Vandersteen with Rogues is superb!
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@buellrider97
Cool! Man that Hera was a great deal, I would’ve bough it for sure. They’re hard to sell, but the sound quality you get for $2K is amazing. A hidden gem. IMO it showcases the 6H30 sound at its best - caveats aside (high gain, microphonics), in some ways I like it better than the much more expensive Audio Research Reference 6 (which also is a great manifestation of 6H30 sound). I just didn’t get that kind of "6H30" sound from the RP-9; must be the MOSFETs. I was certainly expecting it, and it wasn’t there - kind of a bummer.
Interesting about the report on Rogue’s Dark tubes - they couldn’t keep a large NOS stash around forever, so it’s to be expected. I think it’s more fun to roll your own, anways.
5751 can be a fun sub for the 12AX7 slots - they generally have a more precise, tigther image and better "clarity" and smoothness than 12AX7. 12AX7 tend have a bigger image and dynamic sound. At least that was what I found when rolling my original Apollos. Mazda Silver plate 12AX7 gave the best of both worlds, at the expense of a little extra treble energy (strangely enough, they have "T" plates like more 5751). Don’t get the silver-plate 5751 though - they’re brightness monsters.
As aforementioned, you can always sub 6189 and 5814 for 12AU7 slot. 5963 is usually too microphonic as a 12AU7 sub for preamp / phono amps, but it’s OK to use them here! The RCA 5963 are a nice tube for cheap. 12BH7 are more dynamic sounding and draw more heater current, but OK to use here too.
Enjoy! Hope your really like the Hera w/ 180 Draks. I know I would! I’m playing with Stereo 100 (non-Dark) and Hera in my 2nd rig right now. The ST100 is just a hero for its price point; such a fun amp and lots of tube rolling options - got Tung-Sol 7581A power tubes in there currently.
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@buellrider97
Awesome, glad they're gettng the care they deserve, though the extra delay for upgrade is annoying.
So my initial "everything will probably be fine" advice was completely wrong. Sorry about that. The bridge rectifiers in tube amps can take a lot of heat, so that makes sense. The other resistor being bad is an oddball but it happens.
That's concerning about the current Russian tubes - I know they had serious issues circa late 2000s with EH KT88. Then smooth sailing (relatively) for a while with EH KT90 and TS KT120. Hadn't heard about the latest issues yet, but I guess it's not too surprising. It's a shame because Gold Lion KT88 were becoming the popular favorite for their sonic match to Rogue amps.
I've never trusted Psvane power tubes (lots of isues with past KT120 attempts etc) but times do change!
How's your Hera?? Love mine. It shares duty with a $30K VAC Master in my 2 systems. I would say the ARC Ref 6, 3SE phono, Hera and Athena are all great examples of the "6H30 sound". Rogue's current flagship RP-9 did not sound like 6H30, to me, despite using these tubes.
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@buellrider97
Pardon my language but JJ’s sound like crap.
I co-admin a Rogue group on Facebook and I frequently comment: "JJ’s go right in the trash". Any of the Russian 12AX7 options are better (EH 12AX7 and 12AU7 are a bit too bright, though).
Don’t pay a big-guy tube dealer $300 to $500 per pair. These days, it will be either very "questionable" NOS, or late production overstocked dregs from the 70s / 80s. Buy a couple sets of vintage "used, tests good" tubes from a smaller seller with a good track record. Example - I always liked Arizona Tube Supply. At least you’ll be getting what you paid for (used). Good vintage tubes should still last a very long time - not worth paying so much more for NOS, in my opinion. There should still be plenty of Telefunkens, Mullards and RCA black plates out there. 5751 work well in Rogue amps too. You want tighter imaging at the slight expense of some "size" and dynamics gusto? Use 5751.
Upscale is an excellent choice for buying new power tubes. It’s worth their premium here - BUT you definitely don’t need the Cryo treatment or "ARC Select" / "Kevin’s Stash" premiums. I’ve tried those and they are no better than Platinum grade. Their burn-in process should filter out most of the problem tubes. I’ve bought dozens of Russian KT120 / KT88 from them over the years and NEVER had a single problem. The one EH KT90 I’ve had blow up on me (15 years ago) was supplied by Rogue!
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@hiend2 Hi , how’s it going? So about 5-6 days ago I put a primo pair of Tekefunkens in the 12AX7 spot. They’re NOS , but they definitely needed some time. The amps had about 100 hours on them with the new tubes plus the upgrade. They are settling in nice. The Telefunkens replaced some new production gold pin Tung Sol 5751’s that actually sounded very nice. I became very aware when I replaced them with the Telefunkens as they are bright and grainy. I’ve left the amps on most of the last 5 days and they’ve come in nicely. The problem is now the speaker glare , but they’re just temporary. I did however order a pair of nos GE 5 Star triple mica black plate 5751’s from Arizona tube supply. I’ll try them upon arrival and see what happens. I sent an email to Rogue inquiring about 12AT7 and 12AY7’s. They would only say the circuit is optimized for 12AU7’s, but they ship with 5751’s. They didn’t respond at all to my second question about tone impact with the splitter tube Vs the 2 gain tubes. Any input would be appreciated. Cheers, Mike. What am I looking for regarding Jay’s Tube Lore ?
The 12AX7 and 12AU7 slots have different roles and operational parameters. You would sub 5751, as a near-12AX7 equivalent, into the 12AX7 slot, NOT the 12AU7 slots. A 12AX7 (or 5751) is gong to struggle like crazy in 12AU7 slots, diving those big KT120 or KT88. You'll get higher distortion for sure. You won't hurt anything by experimenting in these slots, but best to stick to tubes with lower Rp (i.e. they can push more current) in those 12AU7 slots. Hell, even 12AU7 may be underpowered for this slot, which is perhaps why some of us report good results with 12BH7 sub. Many good 12AU7 subs have already been listed here.
The 12AX7 (phase inverter / splitter) slot - you can experiment a bit more here. Besides 5751, 12AT7 and 12AY7 should be OK here. I've actually used 12AY7; it can sound pretty good (GE red "industrial" label 1964). I even once accidentally put 5814 (a 12AU7 sub) into the 12AX7 slots and it sounded decidedly fatter / colored, but also pretty euphonic. Took me a day to notice my error lol.
The GE triple-mica black-plates (a.k.a. TMBP) 5751 are awesome tubes. Great choice! Very sweet sounding, but with great sparkle, dynamics, and detail. Fantastic mids. There's a special variant of it only produced in 1953 and 1954 which has "silver clips" crimping the little plate "ears" that poke through the mica wafters. I think these sound even sweeter than other TM BP's - but they're rare. And hard to spot from most photos. I've even mixed one of these with a non-clips version (the pair was electrically matched) and it carried most of the "silver clips" magic without causing a notable imbalance. Tubes are generally more flexible and forgiving than you might realize at first :)
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I’m coming to the conclusion that I want a larger speaker that’s “ MUSICAL “, that I can crank up and listen to while sometimes moving around. Being extremely price driven , I’m interested in the Tannoy’s , Fyne, MoFi 888, Cornwall IV’s ( not a fan of horns ), Tekton Moab. Unfortunately I’ve never heard any of these.
That’s my leaning too - I love Tannoy DC’s for their mix of coherence, refinement, and detail. Haven’t heard Fynes; they can be viewed as a continuation of Tannoy, but losing of some of the old-world / traditional features of Tannoy Prestige along the way (alnico magnets, textile surrounds).
There’s a WIDE range of sounds you’ll get from various Tannoy models (and probably Fynes too). If you want a BIG sound then that is (perhaps obviously) best manifested by the models with a 15" DC driver. The 12" DC can get close. But when you step down to a 10" DC, it’s a different beast - they sound GREAT in midrange, but they’re not gonna sound "big". With smaller DC drivers you’re either going to want to supplement with subs OR at least look for models that add a dedicated woofer to the main DC driver (as Fyne does with 702, 703, 704 lines like Tannoy used to do with Definition DC10, DC8 before them - and further back, D700 etc).
There’s been much talk about the closure of Tannoy’s Scotland factory, and move to Music Tribe’s Chinese factory, since Behringer’s acquisition. Yes, even all Prestige drivers are now made in China! However, being curious, I finally bought a pair of loose Kensington GR drivers made in China - and plugged them into a definitely made-in-UK Kensington GR black edition. Frankly, I think these Chinese drivers sound better than UK - maybe not a fair comparison if the "black edition" drivers were tweaked differently. But the Chinese do sound better. And if you ignore sticker labels (and gold vs. silver metal colors), they look to be of exactly the same quality build - you would not be able to tell which is which!.
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