Looking for advise regarding Rogue M180’s

@jafox , Hi thanks for the detailed advice, I’m going to hook them up tomorrow. I returned home this afternoon from a trip to see Collective Soul in Las Vegas.               I have a strong suspicion that the previous owners hum issue was circuit related. He had a dedicated equipment room adjacent to his listening room that housed some of his theater gear, a server, and his reference system amps. He utilized long runs of Acoustic Zen cables to go from his Hera to the M180’s, then another long run to his speakers and subs. As you noted room heat became an issue so he put the amps in a separate climate controlled room. That room was a new build and had a wiring issue and the power company’s transformer had to be changed. As mentioned above I have a modest single ended low power system. One plus is I’ve had the opportunity to tube roll before prices exploded. I have about 6 pairs of Tekefunkens including Tektronix and the black G 73-R’s, Seimens CCa , Silver plated Seimens, RCA tripple mica. In 6922 numerous NOS American and my favorite Tekefunken E88CC. I’m wondering if the KT 90’s you have are EH not Tung Sol. I like the new KT 120 and 150 tubes. I very much like the GL KT 88’s. One of my all time favorites is the Svetlana Winged C, but they’re hard to come by and mostly factory seconds. They have the sweetness of the Gold Lion KT88 and the low end of the Tung Sol KT -120’s. I needed to know about an open loop on input , which has been answered. But you guys have given me tremendous advise regarding input tubes. I do not own any 12AX7’s or 12AY7’s or any of the lower gain tubes. The advise I’ve received will help me with my choices. After this, I will shop for an affordable balanced pre. Unfortunately my quest for the appropriate speakers will be on hold as my wife is purchasing 2-3 slabs of Quartz tomorrow for our pending kitchen remodel. She’s looking at Taj Mahal quartz, Thermidor appliances and oak flooring. My dreams of Big Boy speakers will have to be put on hold . Also I’m very humbled and honored that the three of you have taken the time to guide me. Regards , Mike B. 

  @audphile1 , Thank you for your input, your experience with a vast amount of gear and your straightforward recommendations are always appreciated.                                  @mulveling , I was hopeful you’d respond and save me sending a PM. I’ve long read your advice and admired your equipment. Your knowledge of tube gear including Rogue is greatly appreciated. Your comments on small tube sound characteristics has been invaluable to me.                                                                              I was concerned about the input being open Vs closed by means of a shorted input connector. Having read online I noted in guitar amp forums it was stated to short the input when checking for hum. As I’m planning on using the JBL’s, I’m not too concerned with the noise I get with high dB speakers like my Zu and Klipsch. I also didn’t realize the the Hera had such a high amount of gain and that would explain the original owners complaints of too much power. FWIT the original owner was formerly a dealer that changed careers and went into estate law. I know he carried Rogue, Modwright, Acoustic Zen, and Dali. He once loaned me a Modwright KWI 200. After the Rogue gear he had a full quiver of Bryston with Dali stand mounts and JL Fathom subs. His current system is Macintosh and B&W’s. His room is treated with GIK items. I couldn’t live with those B&W’s, the tweeters are deadly. 

@big_greg , thanks for your input. I have Zu, Klipsch, and JBL 4312A’s that are in excellent condition. My front end is Innuos, Schiit Yiggy, Thorens TT with Grado Prestige. I’m currently running the Rogue RP-1 with Telefunken G73-R’s , vibration isolation under footers and upgraded power cord. I’ve reached the limits of what it can do without adding a separate phono stage. I have a Dennis Had Inspire Sep amp with 1/2 doz NOS rectifier tubes, 8 NOS input tubes, and about 10 pairs of power tubes from NOS GEC to KT-150’s. I rotate that with a modded Akitika SS 50wpc amp. My long plan is an entire new back end with a better pre and some speakers that like that much power. I will not connect them with the ZU’s at all. I was considering new tube monos when I was gifted the M180’s. I live about 2 hours south of Quicksilver and was considering the KT’s as Mike recommended at least 100 wpc for my JBL’s. However as a near field studio monitor, they are not that musical. If this works out I’ll be looking at some speakers in the $10K region which is a lot for my modest income. And again your comments are appreciated. Regards, Mike B.

@tomic601 Hi, thanks for the input. I have the factory packaging and if a repair is needed I’ll ship to them. That being said , I really enjoyed your system pictures. You have some cool collectibles. I love your Mac amps and the other retro gear. Nice mount, it doesn’t look like a Rainbow, may I ask what it is ? I float tube fly fish at Lake Almanor in the fall. I’ve fished Monterey Bay my whole life, and currently pursue Tuna from San Diego. One last question, do you fly ? My son in law flew a Rhino at LAS Lemoore. Now he’s a T-45 instructor in Florida. Between fishing, hunting, target shooting and motorcycles I’m lagging on audio gear. Father Time is catching up with me and I have a lot more time for listening to music. Regards, Mike B. 

@mulveling @jafox  Well I have them both powered up. The inputs are open and they’re biased at 40ma and holding steady. They are absolutely dead quiet. However I have encountered an issue. The first amp was great, no hum, and no popping. The bias was at zero for all four tubes so I set it at 30, let it sit for another 30 minutes and set at 40.  When I flipped any of the four meter switches or the Triode/ Ultra linear switch, it was quiet. After an hour I hit the off button and it quietly shut down. However on the second amp it started with a very slight hum that went away. The 4 bias switches caused the amp to make a popping sound as did the Triode/ Ultra Linear switch. After about an hour the hum went away and only 2 of the bias switches cause a popping sound. When I pushed the off button it made a moderately loud pop and shut down. I came back after letting them cool and started both of them again. Both dead quiet, bias good. But I still get a static sounding pop from two bias switches on one side, the same sound when I flip the Triode/ Ultra Linear switch either way. And the pop upon shutdown. I’m leaving them powered on overnight. After all, they’ve been unused for 6-7 years. Tomorrow I’ll call Rogue as they never responded to my email. I want to get their thoughts before I add a source. I’ll post my findings. Regards, Mike B. 

@mulveling  @audphile1 ​@jafox , we’ll here’s the latest. Got involved with helping my elderly mother and missed my window to call Rogue. However I added a streamer and a dac/pre combo that’s single ended from a headphone system. The amps had some hum, but it’s budget single ended stuff. Anyway played some music and when I cranked it up the right side had a garbled background sound that sounded like static and a dying transistor ( just my description). Switched sides on input, then switched sides on speakers , it’s definitely the amp. Also with it all hooked together, I noticed a slight ground loop issue. When I muted the source and turned off the good amp , there was a mild pop from the bad amp. I’m wondering if there might be something failing in the power supply filter that causes noise but the amp still functions. Also I went to Rogue’s website for the owners Manuel and there’s only the M-150. The 180, does not have the ground loop switch like the 150. Also I tried the 4 ohm tap and when I powered one on it sounded dead. I immediately shut it off as not to cook a tranny. Another reason to need a Manuel , are both sets of terminals connected? Anyway I’ll try Rogue tomorrow, but again, any input is appreciated. Cheers, Mike B. 

    Todays update. First off thanks for your guidance, second they’re going to Rogue for either repair or possibly a Dark Upgrade. Bill at Rogue spent 30 minutes on the phone with me while the tech listened. The amp in question went into a nasty screeching oscillating that scared everyone. They also recommended using Pirate Ship for shipping fees. Thanks to all, Mike B. 

@jafox , Good morning, I appreciate your idea. The bad amp definitely needs repair. I had it at best playing but with an underlying distortion that sounded like a bad driver tube. But it’s more than that because when I swapped out tubes and restarted it, the amp went bonkers and started screeching and popping at about 90 db. It scared my dogs it was so bad. It happened 3 times, 2 of which I was on speaker phone with Rogue’s staff. A ballpark figure to fix it ( guesstimate ) is about $500. A Dark upgrade would negate the repair charge and run me $2500. As great minds think alike I’ll get the Dark upgrade. Since the amps were free, it pencils out better than the ones you suggested. Plus mine are silver and match my system and excluding the current issue are in excellent condition. Cheers , Mike. 

   I can go cheap and fix one for $500. That leaves the other unchecked. So if do both  say $1k. They were built in 2012, and I’m thinking fresh parts that are also an upgrade is prudent and worthwhile. I’ll probably ask the previous owner to sell me the Hera, and it’s been to the shop, serviced and re tubed. Also they were obtained at dealers cost in 2012, and I anticipate a bargain price. And with all the original packaging, I’ll surely break even if I sell down the road. That being said, what speakers mate well for Classic Rock in a room 20x30 with a 15’ ceiling ? Thanks again gentlemen.

@audphile1 , you have some really nice gear and I appreciate your advise. I’m budget limited and am curious about a $5k limit and a $10k limit, used ok. Also I’ve never owned tube amps this powerful. I do a lot of looking on line , but lack anywhere to listen. An audio show is much needed. Having Zu with my low power gear leads me to be curious about Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, or Volti. But in another direction maybe something tall like Focal or Legacy. Vandersteen is nearby but I’m not sure if they’re open to the public. I guess I’m like the guy that goes to the gun shop and when asked “ What do I want “, I respond by saying “ Not sure what do I need “.  So I’m all ears. Respectfully, Mike B. 

   Good afternoon gentlemen and thanks for the additional comments. When I was on the phone will Bill at Rogue, he commented that the ST-100 had the greatest performance increase from the Dark option. Prior to receiving the M-180’s I was eying either the ST-100 or the Quicksilver KT’s. However when I inquired about the M-180’s, they were graciously loaded into my truck and I was sent on my way. I’m sure the freshened up Hera can be had for a song, so I’ll just roll with the flow. My thought on the Dark upgrade is, I love Telefunkens and have multiple pairs already with the exception of the 12AX7’s. Also the Cardas terminals are not a must either. I’m going to ask if I can purchase the Dark upgrade minus the tubes and the binding posts. I have a Quad of G73-R Tekefunken 12AU7’s  and a quad of Siemens silver plate 12AU’7’s. It will be interesting to see if that’s doable. As far as speakers, my room is 20’ across the front wall. It is 28’ deep and the back is partially open to the kitchen and two hallways. The left wall is 14’ and the right wall is 11’. The ceiling is peaked at about 18’ and runs the entire length front to rear. I can place the speaker baffles as far off the front wall as need be. I have no idea of SPL, and I’m ignorant of tubes Vs SS in regards to room pressure. The previous owner loaned me a Modwright KWI 200 and my JBL’s on 26” Sound Anchor stands were able to shake the room. FWIT I didn’t like the JBL’s with SS and even with tubes they’re just not musical. They’re meant for studio mixing, but at the moment I have them. After I get speakers they can go to my brothers home mixing room. My current system is perfect for listening alone or with my wife. The imaging is excellent, the soundstage is wide, strings and vocals are sweet. It’s almost like headphones as the sweet spot is perfect for one. I can listen to Diane Krall and feel like she’s in the room. However with the M-180’s I’d like to feel the music in my body when I listen to Pink Floyd. When I get this up and going I’m going to cue up my MFSL copy of Supertramp Crime of the Century and share with my neighbors. I hope my limited ability to articulate my wants is understandable. Respectfully, Mike B. 

The plot thickens ! 😆 I was contacted yesterday by the original owner and apparently he tossed all the packing materials. At least he has the cages. The good news is Rogue sells the complete packing units at $60. each. I haven’t priced it out yet as Bill is out of the office this week, but I can get a quote for a partial Dark upgrade. My logic is I already have the tubes and I’m not that concerned about the upgraded binging posts. So I’m thinking of upgrading the boards, which gets them both restored to better than new. Any additional comments are appreciated. Regards , Mike B. 

@hiend2 , Thanks for you’re input. I started to pull the cover on the one that’s having issues just to have a look. Unfortunately the screw didn’t want to budge and started to loose the head, so I stopped. I didn’t want to start whacking them with a mallet and you certainly can’t heat them like we do on motorcycles, so I just left it alone. Last month I received my Yiggy back from Schiit due to a failed USB card. And it was in a new chassis as the tech broke off the screws holding the board to the chassis. Considering I want the boards updated and brought up to spec they’re best just shipped. I would like your input on power tubes and speakers. I have a relatively fresh set of GL KT-77’s and in my mind they’re glorified EL-34’s. Down the road I’ll be considering KT-120’s and GL KT-88’s. So any input especially speakers is appreciated. Regards , Mike B. 

@mulveling    Hi all, here are todays updates. I received my boxes from Rogue and will pack and ship to Rogue for the repair and the Dark upgrades. Also I’d like to mention that I obtained the Hera II from the owner of the amps. Back when the amp had a problem the owner shipped the Hera to Rogue for a checkup and it received a clean bill of health. A fresh set of Sovtek tubes were installed that are graded by Upscale Audio. I’m not sure if Rogue or the owner replaced them. Also included with the Hera are the original set of tubes and the metal remote along with factory packaging. The Hera looks like new and hasn’t been used since the trip to the factory. I paid $2K for it, which seemed pretty fair. Another interesting fact is the Dark upgrade no longer includes NOS small tubes. They are using better grade new production which I’ll still replace. I’m planning on all 6 small tubes being NOS Telefunkens. Regards , Mike B. 

@decooney  Hi , thanks for your input and I did receive the cc. The M-180’s currently have GL KT-77’s. I borrowed a tube tester and they are so low it advised replace on all eight. I tested the original KT-90’s and they are at about 80%, but one is dead. I tried the GL and JJ KT-77’s in my Had. I like the GL’s. My concern is how much bass they will make. I really didn’t plan on using the ZU’s but with KT’77’s could be pretty interesting. I’m hoping to be happy with the JBL’s, but they’re not a long term speaker. Im hoping to get a big wide sound that I can shake the house and annoy the neighbors. I’ll relive my youth and then look for something more refined. Those big Tannoy’s interest me but I guess I’ll have to go to Upscale to audition them. So keep it coming gentlemen and I’ll post my updates. Regards Mike B. 

@mulveling.   Hi, thanks for more info. FWIT, Bill at Rogue has the ST-100 Dark and Megapan 1.7’s. He likes the Dark upgrade and commented that it’s huge on the ST-100. The Hera has graded Upscale Sovtek’s but the owner can’t recall how many hours on them. Since they’re the second set I’ll use them for now. Those silver Mazda’s interest me, but they are expensive.  I have 4 Siemens Silver 12AU7’s I might try after the Telefunkens. My only concern is the middle tube as I have zero 12AX7’s. I want to get a pair of Tekefunkens and a pair of the lower mu replacements, not sure which and I’m reluctant to go on a spending spree. All my stuff is single ended and Bill recommend to use my current favorite cables. After I get going I’ll consider balanced. I have a loom of Morrow, and they have a generous upgrade offer. I’ll be looking at going balanced with Level 6 stuff. But they really take 400 hours and that sucks. So with the M-180’s coming back with a full set of current factory tubes, I’ll start there. Regards, Mike. 

@decooney , No problem, I overlook the fine print often. The 4312’s are a true studio monitor which is not a forgiving speaker. The specks JBL gives are way to low for power requirements. They are happy at a minimum 200 wpc solid state. I was considering Quicksilver before I went low power and Mike Sanders stated they need 100 wpc with tubes. At the time the KT monos were 50-60 watts ? He strongly recommended the 100 watt monos. I went a different direction and was going to get the current KT’s and run KT-120’s or 150’s but the Rogues became available. I tried the JBL’s with the Modwright KWI 200 we discussed and it drove them well. However the SQ was not enjoyable as the midrange glare and the Ti tweeters were way too bright. Prior to that I ran them with an inexpensive 30 wpc Antique Sound Labs 30 wpc integrated with Winged C EL 34’s and Tungsram 12AU7’s. The SQ was great but way underpowered. Anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. That Modwright KWI was an early one and lacked a DAC that appeared later. I didn’t ask , but my buddy still might have it. He just kept buying gear and storing the used due to lack of interest. It’s been idle longer than this Rogue gear. The Hera was on a storage shelf in his home gym with other gear. His gym had 4 Dali bookshelves wall mounted with a built in passive sub and room correction. He has a theater in his living room and stereo in his outdoor shower. It’s always entertaining to visit him. And no I didn’t try the shower. 😆 Cheers, Mike

Good evening gentlemen, here’s the latest on the M-180’s. I sent them both to Rogue with a memo to repair/ upgrade/ retube/ return. That’s a lotta R’s 😆. Anyway I received a call yesterday and they were repaired. The one that malfunctioned had a bad resistor in the circuit that carries the signal from the 12AX7, hence one side of the tube wasn’t in play most of the time. This explains why it had a lower volume and a slightly distorted sound. Rogue also replaced the bridge rectifiers in both units and said they were working, but tired. They said that’s a common long term maintenance issue in their amps. Unfortunately a written request for upgrades was not sufficient to do the Dark upgrades. So I verified the dark upgrades and some new power tubes. So I’m back in the queue with an expected completion about 10 more days and then a week traveling home. In retrospect the amps popped when I first fired them up every time I hit the triode switch and turned them off. After a few days of experimenting with them this subsided. I think it was partially due to the weak rectifiers. Rogue also stated that the inner part of one chassis was tweaked from one being dropped on its side while boxed during transport. Apparently being bolted to the board while boxed only minimizes chassis damage. They were also adamant against buying any Russian power tubes that are currently produced. They said the failure rate is astronomical. They are being retuned with Psvane KT-88’s which is ok for now and gives me some stock tubes to set aside.  I’ll post when I receive them and try them out. Regards, Mike B. 

@mulveling @decooney @hiend2 @big_greg    Well my amps came home today. UPS had them on their side using a 2 wheeler in typical UPS style. Anyway they received the Dark upgrade and have all new tubes. I took the Hera out of the box and set it all up on the dining room table much to my wife’s dismay. The system is dead quiet and sounds nice considering they’re basically new. The Hera has not been used since 2019. I’m streaming some music now and I’m going to let it run all night at low volume. It’s been on about an hour so I’ll check the bias and call it a day. Next week I’ll roll some input tubes and see how it sounds. We’re getting ready to gut our kitchen and den for a remodel. Even though the system will be in the living room I’ll probably box it up during construction. I do have a few questions, 1) How many hours for break in ? 2) How much of a difference will balanced interconnects make ? 3)  What do you like your bias at ? Regards , Mike. 

@decooney Hi , thanks for the advise. I have no idea how much time they ran after the repair.  They installed new resistors, Hexfred diodes, new caps in addition to MORE caps. You can see massive pairs strapped to the chassis on the inside edge. Plus all new tubes. It’s been on low for about 14 hours. Wife just left so I turned it up, still harsh but I can tell an improvement. The upgrade tubes include 2 JJ gold pin 12AU7’s and a new production Tung Sol 12AX7 in each amp. Pardon my language but JJ’s sound like shit. I have a quad of Nickel Seimens and a quad of Tekefunken G73-R’s to try. I’m going to call Brent Jesse and get a pair of quality Tekefunken 12AX7’s this week. I have zero 12AX7’s to try. I wish there was a tube library so I could try some stuff. But at $3-500 a pair for good 12AX7’s I’m kinda screwed. The other issue is my wife took all my play money for her kitchen remodel project. I still need big boy speakers. But this is a First World problem and I’m a lucky guy. So after the amps get a week or so, I’ll change all the small tubes. If these Psvanes don’t improve in the bottom end I’ll try my Schiit Loki, but I’ll probably get an octet of KT 120’s. Having been warned by Rogue every time I mentioned new tubes, I’ll probably buy an octet from Upscale. 

@mulveling Thanks for sharing your experience. I was thinking Brent Jesse, but I will definitely check out Arizona Tube Supply. In the Rogue RP-1 I rolled everything from Mullards to high grade Telefunkens. Same with the single input tube in my Had Inspire. But these were 12AU7’s in the Rogue and a 6JD/ecc88 in the Had. But my assumption is the sound characteristics will carry over in the 12AX7’s. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Of the American tubes RCA and Phillips were pretty good. It came down to Telefunken, Seimens and Amperex in that order with Telefunken my favorite. The Seimens CCa was second with the nickle plates and the Amperex next. What I found with the Seimens and the Amperex is the treble was too forward , where as the Telefunkens were smooth across the frequency range. I’m changing walls for my stereo and will be getting a new TV. Unfortunately the TV will be on the wall behind the stereo. But my room is 19’ wide by 28’ deep so I’ll be able to put the speakers 3-4’ off the front wall. I just removed a huge 3 sided cloth covered sectional from the room and came to realize how much it dampened the room. The guy that I got the gear from offed my a free pair of unused GIK wooden diffusers. My intent is to mount the tv, change to that wall and set up the system. Then I’ll play with the diffusers and experiment with bass traps and absorbing panels. My friend also has a commercial sound analyzer that’s in a travel case with mics and stands. I don’t remember the brand and I’ve not played with it. It’s older but probably still useful. Again , thanks for your wisdom. Cheers , Mike B. 

Well I’m on day 2 and the harshness is starting to subside. Unfortunately I could not stand the JJ 12AU7’s any longer. Although they’re the gold pin version I just couldn’t take it anymore. I had turned the mid and treble settings on the JBL’s to 1 and it still sounded harsh. So I put in 2 pairs of Siemens nickel plates in the 12AU7 slots and ordered a trace curve matched pair of smooth plate 12AX7’s from Brent Jesse. With just the Seimens in it’s already more listenable and the Telefunkens will arrive next week. I will take your advice and contact Arizona Tube regarding some additional tubes. About 5-6 years ago I was at the Barrett- Jackson car show in Scottsdale and there was a big booth selling restored vintage radios and vintage tubes. My memory is foggy, but I can’t help thinking it was the vendor you mentioned. BTW I noticed the amps are biased at 35ma. , what do you guys run ? Cheers , Mike. 

@hiend2 Hi , I agree the RCA’s would be an improvement, probably quite significant. My Tekefunkens should arrive in a few days and I’ll replace the new production Tung Sol 12AX7’s. I have the system burning in on the dining room table. I used all the cables in my leftovers box, it’s quite an ugly scene. It’s all running through an old Monster power filter and discarded unbalanced interconnects. The speakers are on the table too, it’s quite comical. I’m getting moments of nice sound depending on what’s streaming. I’ve emptied the living room and got out my big Sound Anchor stands. They were damaged by dissolving Blue Dots and I have to clean and repaint. I’ll have to get some balanced IC’s real soon. Thanks for your input. Cheers, Mike B.