@hiend2 ,Thank you for recommending the GE 5751’s, they’ve only 2 days , but it certainly knocked off the rough edges, without sacrificing the overall sound. @mulveling , Thank you for staying in this thread with your detailed input, I greatly appreciate your helpfulness. To everyone here , I’m at a point where I can’t go any further until I do a proper setup. Unfortunately we are signing contracts for a major kitchen remodel. This includes ripping out the cabinet soffits in the kitchen and bar, rerouting multiple outlets , water lines and overhead lighting. It will be raining powdered insulation ( whatever that grey crap is ). I’ll probably box it all up ( both systems ) until completion as to avoid airborne contamination of my gear, TT, speakers and records. I’ll be cooking in the laundry room, and eating in the garage with our two standard poodles. Upon completion, if I don’t have a heart attack, I’ll do to a proper setup. I still need cables and speakers. There’s no use trying more tubes till then. FWIT I had conversation with Terry London regarding some cables and he highly recommended a pair of Tekton Moab’s. As I said before I’ll hit Upscale Audio for an audition, and might go to Utah if I can’t audition somewhere. He has taken a lot of crap on this site for what he liked in the past. I’m guessing it will either be 15” drivers , or maybe the Tektons. I have ZU’s that I’ve yet to try and was told my them they would work fairly well, but I want to go BIG ( unfortunately on a budget ). I really pains me to spend $100K on a kitchen upgrade and once again the stereo gets put off. But if Mama’s not happy, nobody is. Cheers to all, give me about 8 weeks and I’ll reach out.
Looking for advise regarding Rogue M180’s
Last week a friend gifted me a pair of Rogue M180’s. They were sold as 180’s and I received them from the original owner. Im guessing them to be 10-12 years old. They were used when first purchased for about 5 years sparingly. Since then they have resided on a flat dolly in a spare bedroom. The amps still have the original Phillips ECG 5751 and 5814A’s installed. The original EH KT 90’s are loose in a box with an octet of low hour Gold Lion KT-77’s . Years back when in use the owner contacted Rogue and stated they were too powerful for his room size and speaker selection. Rogue responded by recommending the GL KT77’s and suggesting that he could also lower the bias from 40ma to 30ma. I was provided the supporting emails dated September 2019. Here is my situation followed by my questions. I currently have a low power single ended system with Zu speakers. Second, the owner stated one might have a hum, but was not sure. He’s on his second complete system since and has a room full of gear he’s lost interest in and his memory is vague. Also back then he had power issues with his provider and stated they installed a new transformer on the street. So my questions are first, checking for any hum. My intent is to take a single amp and connect one JBL 4312 to it. Install the KT77’s, plug it in and listen for a hum and bias the tubes. Do I need the input open or shorted ? Or something else ? Second, the 12AX7’s being replaced by the 5751. I see there’s a mu of 70 Vs 100 with the 12AX7. Does that effect the overall output power of the amp or just change tone and distortion? FWIT I have 6-7 pairs of NOS Telefunken 12AU7’s but zero 12AX7’s. My intent is to check for hum without causing any damage. If a hum exists, I’ll ship to Rogue. In the short term if I’m successful, I’ll test drive with my existing Rogue RP-1, the JBL 4312A’s that are mint and the 26” Sound Anchor stands I have with them. And I’d like to get some Telefunkens to put in the 12AX7 positions. After that, there’s a pristine Rogue Hera that’s been inspected and re tubed by Rogue that I’ll ask to purchase before I start looking for speakers worthy of the pairing. Also I emailed Rogue for support a week ago and have not received a response. Thanks in advance for any feedback and my apologies for grammatical spaghetti, but I’m limited to an IPhone. Cheers , Mike B.
That’s my leaning too - I love Tannoy DC’s for their mix of coherence, refinement, and detail. Haven’t heard Fynes; they can be viewed as a continuation of Tannoy, but losing of some of the old-world / traditional features of Tannoy Prestige along the way (alnico magnets, textile surrounds). There’s a WIDE range of sounds you’ll get from various Tannoy models (and probably Fynes too). If you want a BIG sound then that is (perhaps obviously) best manifested by the models with a 15" DC driver. The 12" DC can get close. But when you step down to a 10" DC, it’s a different beast - they sound GREAT in midrange, but they’re not gonna sound "big". With smaller DC drivers you’re either going to want to supplement with subs OR at least look for models that add a dedicated woofer to the main DC driver (as Fyne does with 702, 703, 704 lines like Tannoy used to do with Definition DC10, DC8 before them - and further back, D700 etc). There’s been much talk about the closure of Tannoy’s Scotland factory, and move to Music Tribe’s Chinese factory, since Behringer’s acquisition. Yes, even all Prestige drivers are now made in China! However, being curious, I finally bought a pair of loose Kensington GR drivers made in China - and plugged them into a definitely made-in-UK Kensington GR black edition. Frankly, I think these Chinese drivers sound better than UK - maybe not a fair comparison if the "black edition" drivers were tweaked differently. But the Chinese do sound better. And if you ignore sticker labels (and gold vs. silver metal colors), they look to be of exactly the same quality build - you would not be able to tell which is which!. |
Gentlemen, again thank you for spoon feeding me. About 2 days after the amps came back, I pulled the 4 JJ 12AU7’s and threw in a quad of Seimens nickel plates. I have a quad of Tekefunken G-73 R’s yet to try. Unfortunately my RCA’s and Mullards , I’ve only 1 pair of each. I’m looking forward to trying the GE 5751’s when they arrive this week. I spent an hour reading Joes Tube Lore regarding 12AX7’s , very interesting. I have a couple caveats in my initial tube rolling. First the equipment lacks a proper set up as it’s all on the dining room table. Second I’m trying to like a pair of speakers that aren’t that good. But I’m getting some run in time and can get a partial idea of the SQ I’m striving for. I’m definitely being guided by the experience being shared. I’m coming to the conclusion that I want a larger speaker that’s “ MUSICAL “, that I can crank up and listen to while sometimes moving around. Being extremely price driven , I’m interested in the Tannoy’s , Fyne, MoFi 888, Cornwall IV’s ( not a fan of horns ), Tekton Moab. Unfortunately I’ve never heard any of these. Upscale Audio is about 3-4 hour drive from me. After I get this gear in a proper set up , and some balanced cables , I’ll schedule an appointment to audition some speakers. Also any recommendations for some balanced IC’s that a poor guy can afford, I’m all ears. I’m thinking a 1 meter pair for DAC to pre, and 2 meters from pre to amps. Please keep it coming! Regards, Mike B. |
The 12AX7 and 12AU7 slots have different roles and operational parameters. You would sub 5751, as a near-12AX7 equivalent, into the 12AX7 slot, NOT the 12AU7 slots. A 12AX7 (or 5751) is gong to struggle like crazy in 12AU7 slots, diving those big KT120 or KT88. You'll get higher distortion for sure. You won't hurt anything by experimenting in these slots, but best to stick to tubes with lower Rp (i.e. they can push more current) in those 12AU7 slots. Hell, even 12AU7 may be underpowered for this slot, which is perhaps why some of us report good results with 12BH7 sub. Many good 12AU7 subs have already been listed here. The 12AX7 (phase inverter / splitter) slot - you can experiment a bit more here. Besides 5751, 12AT7 and 12AY7 should be OK here. I've actually used 12AY7; it can sound pretty good (GE red "industrial" label 1964). I even once accidentally put 5814 (a 12AU7 sub) into the 12AX7 slots and it sounded decidedly fatter / colored, but also pretty euphonic. Took me a day to notice my error lol. The GE triple-mica black-plates (a.k.a. TMBP) 5751 are awesome tubes. Great choice! Very sweet sounding, but with great sparkle, dynamics, and detail. Fantastic mids. There's a special variant of it only produced in 1953 and 1954 which has "silver clips" crimping the little plate "ears" that poke through the mica wafters. I think these sound even sweeter than other TM BP's - but they're rare. And hard to spot from most photos. I've even mixed one of these with a non-clips version (the pair was electrically matched) and it carried most of the "silver clips" magic without causing a notable imbalance. Tubes are generally more flexible and forgiving than you might realize at first :) |
@hiend2 Hi , how’s it going? So about 5-6 days ago I put a primo pair of Tekefunkens in the 12AX7 spot. They’re NOS , but they definitely needed some time. The amps had about 100 hours on them with the new tubes plus the upgrade. They are settling in nice. The Telefunkens replaced some new production gold pin Tung Sol 5751’s that actually sounded very nice. I became very aware when I replaced them with the Telefunkens as they are bright and grainy. I’ve left the amps on most of the last 5 days and they’ve come in nicely. The problem is now the speaker glare , but they’re just temporary. I did however order a pair of nos GE 5 Star triple mica black plate 5751’s from Arizona tube supply. I’ll try them upon arrival and see what happens. I sent an email to Rogue inquiring about 12AT7 and 12AY7’s. They would only say the circuit is optimized for 12AU7’s, but they ship with 5751’s. They didn’t respond at all to my second question about tone impact with the splitter tube Vs the 2 gain tubes. Any input would be appreciated. Cheers, Mike. What am I looking for regarding Jay’s Tube Lore ? |
@hiend2 Hi , I agree the RCA’s would be an improvement, probably quite significant. My Tekefunkens should arrive in a few days and I’ll replace the new production Tung Sol 12AX7’s. I have the system burning in on the dining room table. I used all the cables in my leftovers box, it’s quite an ugly scene. It’s all running through an old Monster power filter and discarded unbalanced interconnects. The speakers are on the table too, it’s quite comical. I’m getting moments of nice sound depending on what’s streaming. I’ve emptied the living room and got out my big Sound Anchor stands. They were damaged by dissolving Blue Dots and I have to clean and repaint. I’ll have to get some balanced IC’s real soon. Thanks for your input. Cheers, Mike B. |
Well I’m on day 2 and the harshness is starting to subside. Unfortunately I could not stand the JJ 12AU7’s any longer. Although they’re the gold pin version I just couldn’t take it anymore. I had turned the mid and treble settings on the JBL’s to 1 and it still sounded harsh. So I put in 2 pairs of Siemens nickel plates in the 12AU7 slots and ordered a trace curve matched pair of smooth plate 12AX7’s from Brent Jesse. With just the Seimens in it’s already more listenable and the Telefunkens will arrive next week. I will take your advice and contact Arizona Tube regarding some additional tubes. About 5-6 years ago I was at the Barrett- Jackson car show in Scottsdale and there was a big booth selling restored vintage radios and vintage tubes. My memory is foggy, but I can’t help thinking it was the vendor you mentioned. BTW I noticed the amps are biased at 35ma. , what do you guys run ? Cheers , Mike. |
I've got vintage and NOS tubes from all of these same people sitting in boxes my cabinets. Priors from AZ, some of Brent's very best curve-tracer triode matched triodes too. Each has its own character, and depends on the rest of the system. While they sit in boxes hoarded away, JJs stored too, I'm still running later version PSVANES the past year solid with zero issues. A tad softer and fuller sound if you like that. @buellrider97 I say let all those stock large and small tubes burn in so you get the caps, diodes, resistors all burned in [first] on cheap tubes you'll pull and replace anyhow in a few weeks. |
@mulveling Thanks for sharing your experience. I was thinking Brent Jesse, but I will definitely check out Arizona Tube Supply. In the Rogue RP-1 I rolled everything from Mullards to high grade Telefunkens. Same with the single input tube in my Had Inspire. But these were 12AU7’s in the Rogue and a 6JD/ecc88 in the Had. But my assumption is the sound characteristics will carry over in the 12AX7’s. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Of the American tubes RCA and Phillips were pretty good. It came down to Telefunken, Seimens and Amperex in that order with Telefunken my favorite. The Seimens CCa was second with the nickle plates and the Amperex next. What I found with the Seimens and the Amperex is the treble was too forward , where as the Telefunkens were smooth across the frequency range. I’m changing walls for my stereo and will be getting a new TV. Unfortunately the TV will be on the wall behind the stereo. But my room is 19’ wide by 28’ deep so I’ll be able to put the speakers 3-4’ off the front wall. I just removed a huge 3 sided cloth covered sectional from the room and came to realize how much it dampened the room. The guy that I got the gear from offed my a free pair of unused GIK wooden diffusers. My intent is to mount the tv, change to that wall and set up the system. Then I’ll play with the diffusers and experiment with bass traps and absorbing panels. My friend also has a commercial sound analyzer that’s in a travel case with mics and stands. I don’t remember the brand and I’ve not played with it. It’s older but probably still useful. Again , thanks for your wisdom. Cheers , Mike B. |
I co-admin a Rogue group on Facebook and I frequently comment: "JJ’s go right in the trash". Any of the Russian 12AX7 options are better (EH 12AX7 and 12AU7 are a bit too bright, though). Don’t pay a big-guy tube dealer $300 to $500 per pair. These days, it will be either very "questionable" NOS, or late production overstocked dregs from the 70s / 80s. Buy a couple sets of vintage "used, tests good" tubes from a smaller seller with a good track record. Example - I always liked Arizona Tube Supply. At least you’ll be getting what you paid for (used). Good vintage tubes should still last a very long time - not worth paying so much more for NOS, in my opinion. There should still be plenty of Telefunkens, Mullards and RCA black plates out there. 5751 work well in Rogue amps too. You want tighter imaging at the slight expense of some "size" and dynamics gusto? Use 5751. Upscale is an excellent choice for buying new power tubes. It’s worth their premium here - BUT you definitely don’t need the Cryo treatment or "ARC Select" / "Kevin’s Stash" premiums. I’ve tried those and they are no better than Platinum grade. Their burn-in process should filter out most of the problem tubes. I’ve bought dozens of Russian KT120 / KT88 from them over the years and NEVER had a single problem. The one EH KT90 I’ve had blow up on me (15 years ago) was supplied by Rogue! |
@decooney Hi , thanks for the advise. I have no idea how much time they ran after the repair. They installed new resistors, Hexfred diodes, new caps in addition to MORE caps. You can see massive pairs strapped to the chassis on the inside edge. Plus all new tubes. It’s been on low for about 14 hours. Wife just left so I turned it up, still harsh but I can tell an improvement. The upgrade tubes include 2 JJ gold pin 12AU7’s and a new production Tung Sol 12AX7 in each amp. Pardon my language but JJ’s sound like shit. I have a quad of Nickel Seimens and a quad of Tekefunken G73-R’s to try. I’m going to call Brent Jesse and get a pair of quality Tekefunken 12AX7’s this week. I have zero 12AX7’s to try. I wish there was a tube library so I could try some stuff. But at $3-500 a pair for good 12AX7’s I’m kinda screwed. The other issue is my wife took all my play money for her kitchen remodel project. I still need big boy speakers. But this is a First World problem and I’m a lucky guy. So after the amps get a week or so, I’ll change all the small tubes. If these Psvanes don’t improve in the bottom end I’ll try my Schiit Loki, but I’ll probably get an octet of KT 120’s. Having been warned by Rogue every time I mentioned new tubes, I’ll probably buy an octet from Upscale. |
@buellrider97 Hi Mike, you might ask if they ran them in for 2-3 days already before shipping out as some do. You might let them play for at least the first week [or two or three] before changing any tubes, let the caps [if new] settle in, and keep checking for noise and get a solid baseline. Take notes if you can on sound of low, mid, high frequency and what you hear for your own refer-back reference later on. I'm a dork and pretty conservative about this first phase, maybe even letting the amps play 2-3 weeks as-is before messing with anything at all. Check bias now and every few days if you can as tubes and bits inside settle in. This way you'll know they are still solid and still dead quiet as you stated. I think of it letting everything to simply stabilize to a baseline with added confidence about the "upgrade" itself. Then, maybe a few weeks down the road, when you start changing any tubes, or start hearing any new noises, you can isolate it a bit easier if by chance a new tube with problems/noise gets introduced. If so, swap the original tubes back in to confirm. Why do i suggest this - here is why. I recall a few times for different amp owners where "recently upgraded" amps and preamps were shipped right back to the factory for them to test and find out the recently changed-in tubes were the culprit, not the upgrade itself. If it were me, I'd just let 'em play 3 weeks on/off. See how it goes for ya. At that point, you'll know what's going on, and how solid the upgrade is. And then can introduce changes, and will easily notice problems if any changes, tubes, bias, causes new issues. This approach can also give you an etched-in-the-brain baseline about how it sounds after the upgrade, and then how it sounds again once you change in the new tubes you want to try. People have different approaches, this is mine fwiw. |
@mulveling @decooney @hiend2 @big_greg Well my amps came home today. UPS had them on their side using a 2 wheeler in typical UPS style. Anyway they received the Dark upgrade and have all new tubes. I took the Hera out of the box and set it all up on the dining room table much to my wife’s dismay. The system is dead quiet and sounds nice considering they’re basically new. The Hera has not been used since 2019. I’m streaming some music now and I’m going to let it run all night at low volume. It’s been on about an hour so I’ll check the bias and call it a day. Next week I’ll roll some input tubes and see how it sounds. We’re getting ready to gut our kitchen and den for a remodel. Even though the system will be in the living room I’ll probably box it up during construction. I do have a few questions, 1) How many hours for break in ? 2) How much of a difference will balanced interconnects make ? 3) What do you like your bias at ? Regards , Mike. |
Awesome, glad they're gettng the care they deserve, though the extra delay for upgrade is annoying. So my initial "everything will probably be fine" advice was completely wrong. Sorry about that. The bridge rectifiers in tube amps can take a lot of heat, so that makes sense. The other resistor being bad is an oddball but it happens. That's concerning about the current Russian tubes - I know they had serious issues circa late 2000s with EH KT88. Then smooth sailing (relatively) for a while with EH KT90 and TS KT120. Hadn't heard about the latest issues yet, but I guess it's not too surprising. It's a shame because Gold Lion KT88 were becoming the popular favorite for their sonic match to Rogue amps. I've never trusted Psvane power tubes (lots of isues with past KT120 attempts etc) but times do change! How's your Hera?? Love mine. It shares duty with a $30K VAC Master in my 2 systems. I would say the ARC Ref 6, 3SE phono, Hera and Athena are all great examples of the "6H30 sound". Rogue's current flagship RP-9 did not sound like 6H30, to me, despite using these tubes. |
Good evening gentlemen, here’s the latest on the M-180’s. I sent them both to Rogue with a memo to repair/ upgrade/ retube/ return. That’s a lotta R’s 😆. Anyway I received a call yesterday and they were repaired. The one that malfunctioned had a bad resistor in the circuit that carries the signal from the 12AX7, hence one side of the tube wasn’t in play most of the time. This explains why it had a lower volume and a slightly distorted sound. Rogue also replaced the bridge rectifiers in both units and said they were working, but tired. They said that’s a common long term maintenance issue in their amps. Unfortunately a written request for upgrades was not sufficient to do the Dark upgrades. So I verified the dark upgrades and some new power tubes. So I’m back in the queue with an expected completion about 10 more days and then a week traveling home. In retrospect the amps popped when I first fired them up every time I hit the triode switch and turned them off. After a few days of experimenting with them this subsided. I think it was partially due to the weak rectifiers. Rogue also stated that the inner part of one chassis was tweaked from one being dropped on its side while boxed during transport. Apparently being bolted to the board while boxed only minimizes chassis damage. They were also adamant against buying any Russian power tubes that are currently produced. They said the failure rate is astronomical. They are being retuned with Psvane KT-88’s which is ok for now and gives me some stock tubes to set aside. I’ll post when I receive them and try them out. Regards, Mike B. |
There are several different versions of Quicksilver tube amplifiers referred to as "Monos", older models with speaker screw strips, and tube regulation, later binding posts added for speakers, and tube regulation pulled out. Those were about 60-80w max then. Later the next size transformer versions came out about 10 years ago, with newer and different switches [on front] started, in the 450v plate voltage range. You have to look at the transformers, power caps, power switch to ID them. Then came the largest transformers units, largest power caps in the 100w range. Then the most powerful "Monos" with higher plate voltage [650v] specifically designed for KT150 power tubes [this is what I have, no longer made]. I run either KT120s or K150s in mine but cannot run KT88s or smaller opt tubes, will burn them up faster with that higher plate voltage, on the edge for KT88s, and no EL34s or KT77s. The larger Mono 120s I have is only designed with extra voltage fire to run the larger opt tubes in their best operating window. More power, grunt, drive. My local dealer keeps one pair - uses them to run his largest electrostatic speakers and they do a nice job of it. These will become collectible amps imo, cannot get them new production any more - if that's what you need. Mike told me once they were expensive to make in this dedicated version. My version of the upgraded Mono 120s with KT120s or KT150s would power your JBLs, I’m running larger multi-driver woofer 4ohm speakers now.The Mono 120s barely get warm, nice. From there, before the pandemic start, Mike backed off on the specific big-gun Mono 120s or aka "KT150 monos" like I have, and he [consolidated 3-4 amps] went back to the side-chassis plug ins layout with the ability to run the smaller output tubes too, with lower plate voltage, the newer "KT Monos" you see today. Thought I’d share this since people just see the new amps on his site, others are archived now. Then new series is what I call the new consolidated design KT Monos. Those do not have the largest dual transformers btw, and its a more universal amp for those who like the lower power output tubes. Nice if you like KT77s, KT88s and you can still run the larger KT120s, KT150s yet lower plate voltage. I found you need the higher plate voltage and bias to run KT150s well. |
@decooney , No problem, I overlook the fine print often. The 4312’s are a true studio monitor which is not a forgiving speaker. The specks JBL gives are way to low for power requirements. They are happy at a minimum 200 wpc solid state. I was considering Quicksilver before I went low power and Mike Sanders stated they need 100 wpc with tubes. At the time the KT monos were 50-60 watts ? He strongly recommended the 100 watt monos. I went a different direction and was going to get the current KT’s and run KT-120’s or 150’s but the Rogues became available. I tried the JBL’s with the Modwright KWI 200 we discussed and it drove them well. However the SQ was not enjoyable as the midrange glare and the Ti tweeters were way too bright. Prior to that I ran them with an inexpensive 30 wpc Antique Sound Labs 30 wpc integrated with Winged C EL 34’s and Tungsram 12AU7’s. The SQ was great but way underpowered. Anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. That Modwright KWI was an early one and lacked a DAC that appeared later. I didn’t ask , but my buddy still might have it. He just kept buying gear and storing the used due to lack of interest. It’s been idle longer than this Rogue gear. The Hera was on a storage shelf in his home gym with other gear. His gym had 4 Dali bookshelves wall mounted with a built in passive sub and room correction. He has a theater in his living room and stereo in his outdoor shower. It’s always entertaining to visit him. And no I didn’t try the shower. 😆 Cheers, Mike |
To @buellrider97 I just read the specs of the 4312A, https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/4312a-information Apologize, I missed which speaker you would use above with the Rogue amp, and assumed you were using the efficient ZUs, and flew right by the 4312A part, doh! While I like the KT77s for lower power amp usage and the idea of efficient speakers used with them, and reading your comment about "shake the house and annoy the neighbors" to "relieve the youth phase", LOL, I'd probably flip-flop on my comments above and agree to have Rouge set and check with Tung Sol KT120s then. My own KT120s can sound smooth playing with bias a little and using the right interconnects with sources and such, fwiw. |
@decooney Hi , thanks for your input and I did receive the cc. The M-180’s currently have GL KT-77’s. I borrowed a tube tester and they are so low it advised replace on all eight. I tested the original KT-90’s and they are at about 80%, but one is dead. I tried the GL and JJ KT-77’s in my Had. I like the GL’s. My concern is how much bass they will make. I really didn’t plan on using the ZU’s but with KT’77’s could be pretty interesting. I’m hoping to be happy with the JBL’s, but they’re not a long term speaker. Im hoping to get a big wide sound that I can shake the house and annoy the neighbors. I’ll relive my youth and then look for something more refined. Those big Tannoy’s interest me but I guess I’ll have to go to Upscale to audition them. So keep it coming gentlemen and I’ll post my updates. Regards Mike B. |
@mulveling. Hi, thanks for more info. FWIT, Bill at Rogue has the ST-100 Dark and Megapan 1.7’s. He likes the Dark upgrade and commented that it’s huge on the ST-100. The Hera has graded Upscale Sovtek’s but the owner can’t recall how many hours on them. Since they’re the second set I’ll use them for now. Those silver Mazda’s interest me, but they are expensive. I have 4 Siemens Silver 12AU7’s I might try after the Telefunkens. My only concern is the middle tube as I have zero 12AX7’s. I want to get a pair of Tekefunkens and a pair of the lower mu replacements, not sure which and I’m reluctant to go on a spending spree. All my stuff is single ended and Bill recommend to use my current favorite cables. After I get going I’ll consider balanced. I have a loom of Morrow, and they have a generous upgrade offer. I’ll be looking at going balanced with Level 6 stuff. But they really take 400 hours and that sucks. So with the M-180’s coming back with a full set of current factory tubes, I’ll start there. Regards, Mike. |
@buellrider97 message received, I replied with a separate message as Agon has the Cc policy I wont use nor care to for security reasons. Anyhow, reading the thread, IF you did decide to send the Rouge in, and you mentioned your others system with Zu's. Not sure if you plan to use those speakers or not. If yes, if you can, I'd stick with the Rogue recommendations to send, test, and dial in those amps with KT77s, [I'm a KT120 tube user btw], but like KT77s for this. If I could reconfigure my larger QS Mono 120s, dialed down plate voltage, and bias more, i'd likely be running KT77s instead as I'm like EL34s with a jolt, like KT77s. If you do send/sent them in - they can bias the input, outputs, and check for noise across the board. Getting the noise way down is key over which vintage tubes to use any more. Properly set up, tested, you could do fine with new/re-issue tubes imo. This granted you don't need extra power, no need for KT120s, go KT77s, |
Cool! Man that Hera was a great deal, I would’ve bough it for sure. They’re hard to sell, but the sound quality you get for $2K is amazing. A hidden gem. IMO it showcases the 6H30 sound at its best - caveats aside (high gain, microphonics), in some ways I like it better than the much more expensive Audio Research Reference 6 (which also is a great manifestation of 6H30 sound). I just didn’t get that kind of "6H30" sound from the RP-9; must be the MOSFETs. I was certainly expecting it, and it wasn’t there - kind of a bummer. Interesting about the report on Rogue’s Dark tubes - they couldn’t keep a large NOS stash around forever, so it’s to be expected. I think it’s more fun to roll your own, anways. 5751 can be a fun sub for the 12AX7 slots - they generally have a more precise, tigther image and better "clarity" and smoothness than 12AX7. 12AX7 tend have a bigger image and dynamic sound. At least that was what I found when rolling my original Apollos. Mazda Silver plate 12AX7 gave the best of both worlds, at the expense of a little extra treble energy (strangely enough, they have "T" plates like more 5751). Don’t get the silver-plate 5751 though - they’re brightness monsters. As aforementioned, you can always sub 6189 and 5814 for 12AU7 slot. 5963 is usually too microphonic as a 12AU7 sub for preamp / phono amps, but it’s OK to use them here! The RCA 5963 are a nice tube for cheap. 12BH7 are more dynamic sounding and draw more heater current, but OK to use here too. Enjoy! Hope your really like the Hera w/ 180 Draks. I know I would! I’m playing with Stereo 100 (non-Dark) and Hera in my 2nd rig right now. The ST100 is just a hero for its price point; such a fun amp and lots of tube rolling options - got Tung-Sol 7581A power tubes in there currently. |
Hey, cool your doing the dark upgrades! I listen to the Apollos regularly have them in a Bi-amp setup them on top and am amazed on the added resolution I get over the krell monos That I can swap in. So Factory no longer send NOS input tubes thats okay, think they had Clear top rca and teles. I have over here Nice sweet 5751's sound quite good in there have them all as well kt88 Gold Lion kt90 Electro and kt120 Electro all have a certain signature the Gold lion are smoothest. Please keep us informed on your factory upgrades! |
@mulveling Hi all, here are todays updates. I received my boxes from Rogue and will pack and ship to Rogue for the repair and the Dark upgrades. Also I’d like to mention that I obtained the Hera II from the owner of the amps. Back when the amp had a problem the owner shipped the Hera to Rogue for a checkup and it received a clean bill of health. A fresh set of Sovtek tubes were installed that are graded by Upscale Audio. I’m not sure if Rogue or the owner replaced them. Also included with the Hera are the original set of tubes and the metal remote along with factory packaging. The Hera looks like new and hasn’t been used since the trip to the factory. I paid $2K for it, which seemed pretty fair. Another interesting fact is the Dark upgrade no longer includes NOS small tubes. They are using better grade new production which I’ll still replace. I’m planning on all 6 small tubes being NOS Telefunkens. Regards , Mike B. |
@hiend2 , Thanks for you’re input. I started to pull the cover on the one that’s having issues just to have a look. Unfortunately the screw didn’t want to budge and started to loose the head, so I stopped. I didn’t want to start whacking them with a mallet and you certainly can’t heat them like we do on motorcycles, so I just left it alone. Last month I received my Yiggy back from Schiit due to a failed USB card. And it was in a new chassis as the tech broke off the screws holding the board to the chassis. Considering I want the boards updated and brought up to spec they’re best just shipped. I would like your input on power tubes and speakers. I have a relatively fresh set of GL KT-77’s and in my mind they’re glorified EL-34’s. Down the road I’ll be considering KT-120’s and GL KT-88’s. So any input especially speakers is appreciated. Regards , Mike B. |
Been following your thread. Good luck to you and rogue service is great. As you found out on the phone call they take ll this stuff very seriously. I have an issue with the old 120 put a output tube in incorrectly due to a broken off center pin. So I smoked the one amp I called rogue they directed me what to look for and I actually fixed the amp with a couple of resistors, I sent the amp to them for a checkout of course Ivve been thru the line 120, 150, Zeus, now appllos, I upgraded the Caps to the Dark level here and Am very Happy with them, Rogue will gey you there whatever you choose, Great crew there Really. Interesting of what they find and you decisions are, cant wait to hear. |
Nice, factory packing for $60 each is well worth it! Many audio companies charge HUNDREDS for the same quality of packing. Example: boxes for my Clearaudio Master Innovation table cost almost $900, ugh. This is a key advantage of Rogue - they won’t try to rip you off. I previously neglected to weigh in on speakers. Well, I’ve been a Tannoy DC (dual-concentric drivers) fan for 20 years and that’s what I’ve used, across several models. I haven’t tried the new Chinese-made stuff, but amazing sounding Scottish Tannoys can be had for good deals on the used market, if shipping can be figured out. Even some of those late 90s - 2000s models (including pro models) are bangers. There are a few models I’d avoid like the oddball DC10A, which were voiced wrong imo (bright). You can also look at Fyne but the deals on older Tannoy are great. The DC drivers come in "tulip" (ceramic) and "pepperpot" (alnico) variants, with the latter being much more expensive, but the tulips are great in their own right. Tulips are usually better behaved in treble and well-balanced overall; pepperpot/alnicos have a super vibrant midrange. There are lots of popular vintage Tannoys too (all pepperpots), which I never waded into. Fyne has made a new version of the DC they call "iso-flare" and I haven’t heard it. The few Tannoy-Fyne comparisons out there usually prefer Fyne (possibly upgrade bias) but also attribute them as being "more detailed", which honestly sends me running in the other direction lol. As usual, we just need to hear for ourselves to make sense of it. Sonically the pairing of Tannoys with any Rogue tube amp, and Hera preamp, is excellent. The newer RP-9 preamp's treble was not a good mix with pepperpot tweeters imo (too much, ouch, etc). Tannoys are moderately efficient so the high gain of Rogue tubes does come into play, but I’ve always tolerated it. I also hear the pairing of Vandersteen with Rogues is superb! |
The plot thickens ! 😆 I was contacted yesterday by the original owner and apparently he tossed all the packing materials. At least he has the cages. The good news is Rogue sells the complete packing units at $60. each. I haven’t priced it out yet as Bill is out of the office this week, but I can get a quote for a partial Dark upgrade. My logic is I already have the tubes and I’m not that concerned about the upgraded binging posts. So I’m thinking of upgrading the boards, which gets them both restored to better than new. Any additional comments are appreciated. Regards , Mike B. |
Good afternoon gentlemen and thanks for the additional comments. When I was on the phone will Bill at Rogue, he commented that the ST-100 had the greatest performance increase from the Dark option. Prior to receiving the M-180’s I was eying either the ST-100 or the Quicksilver KT’s. However when I inquired about the M-180’s, they were graciously loaded into my truck and I was sent on my way. I’m sure the freshened up Hera can be had for a song, so I’ll just roll with the flow. My thought on the Dark upgrade is, I love Telefunkens and have multiple pairs already with the exception of the 12AX7’s. Also the Cardas terminals are not a must either. I’m going to ask if I can purchase the Dark upgrade minus the tubes and the binding posts. I have a Quad of G73-R Tekefunken 12AU7’s and a quad of Siemens silver plate 12AU’7’s. It will be interesting to see if that’s doable. As far as speakers, my room is 20’ across the front wall. It is 28’ deep and the back is partially open to the kitchen and two hallways. The left wall is 14’ and the right wall is 11’. The ceiling is peaked at about 18’ and runs the entire length front to rear. I can place the speaker baffles as far off the front wall as need be. I have no idea of SPL, and I’m ignorant of tubes Vs SS in regards to room pressure. The previous owner loaned me a Modwright KWI 200 and my JBL’s on 26” Sound Anchor stands were able to shake the room. FWIT I didn’t like the JBL’s with SS and even with tubes they’re just not musical. They’re meant for studio mixing, but at the moment I have them. After I get speakers they can go to my brothers home mixing room. My current system is perfect for listening alone or with my wife. The imaging is excellent, the soundstage is wide, strings and vocals are sweet. It’s almost like headphones as the sweet spot is perfect for one. I can listen to Diane Krall and feel like she’s in the room. However with the M-180’s I’d like to feel the music in my body when I listen to Pink Floyd. When I get this up and going I’m going to cue up my MFSL copy of Supertramp Crime of the Century and share with my neighbors. I hope my limited ability to articulate my wants is understandable. Respectfully, Mike B. |
@mulveling I suspect most of the performance of the Dark upgrade was in the tubes. My high frequencies sounded clearer, and the bass extension seemed just a bit deeper. Again, I was pleased. It could have all been confirmation bias. I ought to swap the old tubes (which Rogue shipped back with the upgrade) back in, for a ‘scientific’ test, possibly together with another better-trained set of ears. |
Because of the friendship / gift connection to the M-180 my opinion is send both in and get Dark upgrade. I would budget for HRS ( or equivalent ) Nimbus couplers under the amps upon return. Of course there are fans of microphonic tubes ( snark ) I have significant seat time w Rogue amps North of the M-180 in combination with various Vandersteen speakers - notably Quattro, 5A ( not the Carbon ) and 7. As @mulveling stated, the M-180 seems to be the imo undeserved cap with audiophiles… it shouldn’t be… again my opinion. I am hesitant to recommend any speaker without knowing room dimensions AND your peak SPL required….. |
That’s the rub. How much of the Dark improvement was due to the NOS tubes? When I went from original Apollos to Apollo Darks, I transferred over my own NOS tubes, which I like better than Rogue’s NOS selections (Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and RCA cleartop 12AU7). The stock JJs are just awful. The stock Electro Harmonix 12A*7 (which Rogue shipped back in the day, before JJs) were too bright, esepcially with stock EH KT90 of that time. Again, the Dark upgrades may well be more relevant for ST100 and M180. But I definitely remember feeling rather "meh" about my Apollo Dark upgrade. I should've stuck with the og's honestly. |
@buellrider97 I can recommend the Dark upgrade, if it’s anything like the Dark upgrade to my Rogue ST100. Before the upgrade, I thought the amp was ‘almost there;’ after I got it back, I found it WAS there. The difference was subtle, the cost was considerable (30% of purchase price), but I’m happy with it. You might ask what parts were included. I was surprised when I found the upgrade included NOS tubes for the input section. Sounds like you’re having a blast. Good luck with your journey. |
@audphile1 , you have some really nice gear and I appreciate your advise. I’m budget limited and am curious about a $5k limit and a $10k limit, used ok. Also I’ve never owned tube amps this powerful. I do a lot of looking on line , but lack anywhere to listen. An audio show is much needed. Having Zu with my low power gear leads me to be curious about Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, or Volti. But in another direction maybe something tall like Focal or Legacy. Vandersteen is nearby but I’m not sure if they’re open to the public. I guess I’m like the guy that goes to the gun shop and when asked “ What do I want “, I respond by saying “ Not sure what do I need “. So I’m all ears. Respectfully, Mike B. |
Geez, I need to get some new friends! Congrats. Nothing to add, except that I'm listening to my Rogue Atlas/Perseus combo right now and it sounds great. I would definitely be in for some higher power Rogue gear if it comes my way. Interesting journey, definitely keep us posted. I'd like to hear where this goes. |
I can go cheap and fix one for $500. That leaves the other unchecked. So if do both say $1k. They were built in 2012, and I’m thinking fresh parts that are also an upgrade is prudent and worthwhile. I’ll probably ask the previous owner to sell me the Hera, and it’s been to the shop, serviced and re tubed. Also they were obtained at dealers cost in 2012, and I anticipate a bargain price. And with all the original packaging, I’ll surely break even if I sell down the road. That being said, what speakers mate well for Classic Rock in a room 20x30 with a 15’ ceiling ? Thanks again gentlemen. |
@buellrider97 Oof, sorry about the issue with your M180. Guess I jumped the gun giving the "all clear". Yeah, Rogue can take care of ’em. @hiend2 brought up an interesting point. I’ve owned both Apollo (og non-Dark) and then Apollo Dark (superseded my non-Darks). Frankly, I got exactly the same enjoyment out of both. I could’ve (and probably should’ve) happily stuck with og-Apollos. They had the same sonic DNA. And I’m not sure I always like the sonic effect of exotic parts (caps, resistors). He’s also right about Zeus and Apollos going for bargains on used markets. They’re hard to move, because they occupy a tier above Rogue’s normal market segment, shipping hassles, and because most audiophiles get nervous about that many power tubes (not me lol). M180’s on the used market don’t go for much less $, and their used prices have been relatively stable for a very long time. Most buyers cap out at M180s for Rogue, before they move on to other (more expensive) brands. That said, everyone’s different - my buddy upgraded his Zeus (non-Dark) to my Apollo Darks, and says it’s been a substantial upgrade for him (Vandersteen 5a Carbons). Maybe M180’s also need the "Dark" upgrades more than Apollos did? I still kinda wish I’d held only my og-Apollos, for as cheap as they go. I sold mine for $4K and that was 5 - 6 years ago. |
Hey just saw your thread, Sorry to hear of your prob, I had something similar with a 120 few years ago They fixed it promptly. I have the Apollo Darks, As far as updating to the Darks I would Hold off Thats $$ and not a day and night difference. Maybe sell yours and pick up a good deal on some darks, Actually the apollos have been coming up for great prices All the best >im a rogue have had the 120's 150's Zeus and apollo's Good luck to you |
@jafox , Good morning, I appreciate your idea. The bad amp definitely needs repair. I had it at best playing but with an underlying distortion that sounded like a bad driver tube. But it’s more than that because when I swapped out tubes and restarted it, the amp went bonkers and started screeching and popping at about 90 db. It scared my dogs it was so bad. It happened 3 times, 2 of which I was on speaker phone with Rogue’s staff. A ballpark figure to fix it ( guesstimate ) is about $500. A Dark upgrade would negate the repair charge and run me $2500. As great minds think alike I’ll get the Dark upgrade. Since the amps were free, it pencils out better than the ones you suggested. Plus mine are silver and match my system and excluding the current issue are in excellent condition. Cheers , Mike. |