Lifters ForGetting Cables Off The Floor, Worth It Or Snake Oil

bdp24,

Lots of talk about seismic activity affecting the performance of equipment when placed on generic spikes in comparison to damped springs - referring to the videos mentioned and referred to multiple times by you and others throughout this forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4&feature=youtu.be&t=39

Our take on this marketing/sales video is very opposite those of trending opinions.

It is easy to poke holes in a heavily favored one sided home team demonstration. The fact that this manufacturer has elected to present a lopsided exhibition and state spikes present a problem with musical reproduction without comparing realities has opened the door for this brief response and questionnaire.

Poking Around:

Would it be fair to ask why both meters appear to be “reading the same data” throughout this video prior to the self generated physical stomping or tapping hence establishing a shock wave with additional noise?

Would it also be fair to inquire if this type of energy, focus and release (stomping) is NOT commonplace or generated in any sound rooms or recording studio environments unless self inflicted?

The visual of both meters displaying the near same data while standing idle is a topic of interest that has obviously gone unnoticed by a lot of people. We assume this video production was filmed at a trade show located in a large city where there are possibly underground trains, street traffic, additional outside noise, internal HVAC systems are running, hall traffic, seismic activities and many more noise generating sources. Is it fair to say that there must be a tremendous amount of audible and inaudible noise being generated within the testing environment so why the requirement for over exaggerated stomping?

Since ambient noise and seismic interference are a featured part of their technical storyboard, why not focus on those issues and use them as a testing methodology? According to the manufacturer they play a large role in music reproduction and equipment performance.

Possibly the devices used in the presentation could not or were not calibrated to display the problems associated with what our research, studies and in house testing have determined to be as “extremely minimalist”, possibly non-existent and/or inaudible effects when music is present in the listening environment especially when all sound reproduction equipment and engineered structural room environments have been mechanically grounded.    

We humans see and believe meters in plain view, no matter how camouflaged within or outside the audible range of human hearing or how they are applied to topic, yet we use our ears to listen for audible results… irony?

Reality:

“There is no known scientific test for loudspeaker function when placed in a live dynamic environment, only highly subjective versions currently exist.” R Maicks, Star Sound

We are not questioning the isolation theorem or if spring based products performance delivers audible function as they are fully attested to by the listenership but…

Does anyone actually believe this video presents a ‘fair comparison’ in using generic $1.00 speaker spikes that totals a whopping $4.00 financial investment in comparison to a product costing thousands of dollars?

At some point in time the $ Price $ you pay for a product has to become part of your thought process in order to shape your opinions and grow your understanding of audio. Does a $4.00 investment stand any chance of besting a few thousand dollars worth of design?

There are engineered spiked products available that retail close to the same price point of the spring loaded isolation device used in the aforementioned video that would indeed render their speaker demonstration and comparison as extremely deficient.

We fully guarantee there is no ‘smearing or ringing’ in a well designed and engineered mechanically grounded Platform, just the sound dynamics of live.

In closing:

Believe what you want or whatever theory related to vibration management sounds good to you but always compare the price you are paying for a product to whatever product is being used as the comparison when seeking the higher performance. After all, audio is about what we hear and not what we see, right?

Thank you for your time.

Robert - Star Sound

Hello Folkfreak,

If you examine the entirety of my statement I never state seismic interference does not exist. I am referring to the effects generated from seismic activities within a mechanically grounded sound room with the equipment mechanically grounded as well. The effects from seismic interference are minimalist and do not change a thing or at the very least ours and others who have trained ears in music could not hear or detect any traffic, trains or planes or any seismic related interference within this engineered environment.

We are in the completion stage of another sound room where the structure, all electrical feeds from the main panel including the AC panel along with all the equipment is mechanically grounded. Our previous design stunned everyone from highly experienced audiophiles, studio sound engineers and musicians alike. I would like to invite you in for a listen upon completion.  

Please do not take this as anything but positive. You have a very good system and obviously labored and spent a great deal of time listening and working through the sonic of each product you own in order to gain success in your listening enjoyment and I am sure we can learn from each other’s experience and our people would like to learn more ‘hands on’ about active isolation.

Questions on the Herzan:

Are you sure the noise showing on the Herzan meter with TT in the off position was traffic, construction or a form of seismic interference?

The Herzan relies on AC power for operation therefore it has a power supply (remote as an option however the main body still reacts to friction formed from vibration), AC noise and of course additional resonance formed from vibration on all surfaces and electronic parts including the chassis, the spring system, the electronic parts and circuits, etc., per Coulomb's Law. Since the Herzan is extremely sensitive, could some of the interference being displayed on the meter possibly come from those parts reacting to AC flows?

I am not aware of what this device brings to the table in sonic as we have no experience owning one. Most of our practical knowledge comes to us from Norm (tbg on Audiogon) who reviewed and is very familiar with our products and has also owned multiple Herzan units.

The Herzan appears to be designed for science applications other than audio reproduction.

According to manufacturer’s spec, this isolation system takes approximately 5 to 20ms to receive and process vibrations whereas the human ear responds to auditory stimulus on an average of 0.17ms. The sonic characteristics involving attack, sustain and decay of instruments along with response to listening reaction times are extremely fast. Music is fast hence we rely heavily on the need for speed.

Our engineering is extremely confident that our technology will improve the function and performance of the Herzan. If you are open for an experiment, please contact me. We are always looking for new ways to expand our technology.

We positioned and built it inside of speakers and electronic components, equipment racking, adapted it to musical instruments, placed it inside structural surroundings and it will also improve the function and effectiveness of all those acoustic panels currently mounted to your walls as well.

If you really enjoy the results from the Herzan, then let’s see if we can speed things up a bit and get more out of active isolation.

I am looking forward to some day meeting you.

Robert - Star Sound

To the Grandstanding Kait,

Typical approaches towards others whereas you are mentally... (oops wrong choice of words) because you are already there; so let’s just say if you are required to reach beyond your current threshold of hands on experience and attempting to understand any new concepts while continuing to refuse hands on experimentation with new products built after 2001, your mental reactions to anything beyond the scope of your current day brain trust is matched to the same old, same old repetitive monkey slang.

As you have stated and restated above, you can beat other highly successful manufacturers’ products with your own versions so when can we expect availability on them?

Come on Geoff, you are bragging and shilling all over the place with zero “spring” in your bounce. Put up or shut up duder! Let’s see what’s under that new bag of rocks...

After all, LIGO having absolutely nothing to do with sound reproduction whatsoever, would NOT EXIST if the framework were not “mechanically grounded”. How about that - even the big boys must rely on mechanical grounding for function - imagine that?

You are indeed a “Grandstander”.

Call our innovations and/or, technology what you will Geoffrey Kait. I previously requested that you refrain from calling our people childish names but... here we go again.

Murphy once said, never argue with a fool because after many hours people may not realize the difference. It appears you are a big believer and follower of this law so I hope to be extremely brief in that people can easily separate the differences between us.

On this thread alone - you have announced:

My very first iso device beat the SeIsmic Sink twenty years ago and I’m pretty sure I can beat the Seismic pods today. Sometimes you can tell a book by looking at the cover.

“Pretty sure”? Obviously stated by a man with an overwhelming confidence for success. I would have loved to see who judged that contest.

My own single air spring Nimbus more than twenty years ago set the standard for number of degrees of motion and resonant frequency.

What public document or University reference paper was this published in or is this another one of your “old audiophile expressions”? I would replace the noun ‘standard’ with ‘benchmark’… makes your story telling a bit more believable.

Where is the Nimbus now? The Original Sistrum Platform that Tom (theaudiotweak) played a key role in developing back in 1998 was released for public consumption in 2000 and is still improving sound quality so if Nimbus was that good why aren’t you selling it? Man that was one over-sized piece of racking gear, all loaded up with York barbell weights, holstering up to a 35 pound max component load. Really Impressive...

Tom, big deal. Even if it’s true, which I seriously doubt. "If you look hard enough you can always dig up some story to try to prove your point." - old audiophile expression

How about you Geoff? Let’s talk about truth for a moment. Even if it’s true that you are the chosen one to lead the audio industry, which I seriously doubt. “If you look hard enough you can dig up some story to prove a point or as in your case - just ‘whopper’ size it”.

http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?6

http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?4

Simple proof Tom is not a storyteller in fact he has provided information listed above delivering a new statement on “shear waves” regarding real time, rise time and shear related to vinyl records and loudspeakers with regards to vibration and equipment function.

I had a bit of trouble with this next statement until I realized your participation here is not about music at all.

I’m afraid this is just a sad case of being almost entirely ignorant of what’s been going on in the industry outside the confines of one’s own narrow little developments. Stove, piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove! Yes, you are, yes you are!

I will gladly partner with people of integrity like Tom and graciously accept every narrow little development that Star Sound has accomplished over anyone who suffers from an enraged ego matched to an obvious personality disorder and consistently displays extremely poor taste... like you for example.

How could you possibly consider placing a Tone Acoustics cello endpin on musical instruments costing upward of a half-million dollars plus receive accolades from the musicians “who actually create music and sound” as a sad case with ignorance, lacking industry direction?

Making instruments and music sound better is our direction where we lead by product innovation and sonic results, so that swoosh of air passing by your ears was us.

Robert - Star Sound

PS: Unfortunately your written abuses are NOT solely directed at us but I am fairly sure nearly everyone who has ever participated here on AudioGon has tasted your ridicule and attempts to demean one’s person. In my professional opinion, you should cease from verbally abusing the many especially those who are much more successful than yourself. Why not leave the planet something positive that music lovers can identify with for that is the true meaning of success.

No... more like Hah, hah, hah, hah, truth be told!

Geoffrey C Kate, you are such a ‘Grandstander’. I am not sure anyone can hang with you in any conversation. Your talent lies more in avoidance, providing answers only to what you understand and denouncing everything unfamiliar to you while always changing subject matter. You should have become a politician and sold hot air.

Tom, don’t be such a big isolation denier. Not only is vibration isolation enjoying its 25 year anniversary for audiophiles, the whole isolation phenomenon has resulted in the introduction of spectacularly effective devices, what with active isolation, two stage isolation, magnetic levitation and so forth.

Tom is not an isolation denier, in fact we studied, used and tested various isolation models, techniques and products including your very own springs, in order to form the foundation and expand the theory of Resonant Energy Transfer some seventeen years ago.

Tom’s descriptive information listed above may not be understood by the readership because it is an entirely different understanding of function managing the negative effects caused from vibration in audio and musical instruments.

I would state that isolation theorems are being challenged by a very formidable competition in attaining a higher sounding musical quality; but statements like that enters the world of highly subjective opinions so how about a more focused scientific statement whereas ‘Resonant Energy Transfer’ reduces heat temperature in electronics and transformers establishing greater operational efficiency and can be proven via scientific testing.

Resonance Transfer also adapts to any and all types of musical reproduction products, structural listening environments including recording studios, listening suites and concert halls and enhances the sound of musical instruments without affecting the natural character of the original sound or voice.

Geoffrey, you have no rebuttals to Tom’s statements either confirming or criticizing the technical descriptions he provided and in my opinion should stop relying on the groupie thing, throwing out dated information and all those imaginary numbers you come up with when technically challenged and/or having no realistic ‘on topic’ replies left in the arsenal.

25TH Anniversary for isolation  

Huh? I was not aware of that. What publication announced this? -  Anyway Happy Birthday!

How many audiophiles do you think employ some isolation device or another, 50,000?

Irrelevant statements: Geoffrey, you forget listeners have been mechanical grounding audio components and speaker systems a lot longer, years before springs and isolation surfaced in the marketplace. Our products historically prove that as fact. By the way, based on sales records established by our founding fathers recorded from 1988 easily attest that 50,000 is cutting your number way too short, We are only one company in the industry and have achieved close to that number.

Question:   How many people consider metallic cones as a form of isolation?

They are not.

This lifetime of misrepresentation, titling and labeling all the variations of vibration control and products into one term -  “Isolation”  shows just how new vibration management was and still is in the world of sound reproduction. Until Industry and reviewers adapt a more modern day name for our sector of industry  “isolation”  will continue to confuse methodologies, challenge public’s perception and inhibit intellectual growth.

Example:   The wide majority of current day equipment racking designs including multi-shelves, single shelf products and speaker stands continue to be based on solid mechanical grounding principles and do NOT isolate yet are always referred to and reviewed as 'isolation racks'.

If LIGO had blinders on like you do they couldn’t have been able to observe gravity waves. Come on over to the good guys. You bought into the whole Michael Green "Let the vibrations free to roam around the room" silliness long enough. Enough is enough. You’ve been a good soldier. You can come out now. The war is over.

First and foremost your precious Ligo requires mechanical grounding in order to begin function - enough said ?  

I would not use the term silliness as in a few months there will be an absolute undeniable proof of performance open to the public for audition. This mechanically grounded environment including all AC lines, panels, power distribution and much more is a completely brand new product for audio. You can actually purchase a total and complete sound room. From the standpoint of both SPL and RTA testing, comparing data and physical sound to every venue we have ever encountered, it’s quite frankly - off the charts.

You call it a war?      We call it evolution.

I’ll buy the plane ticket in order to finally meet you and witness the look on your face when the first note hits and reality sets in. As for the ongoing M Green analogies, please tell me again - what in the hill are you talking about? Maybe it’s time you should stop this silliness...

The isolation concepts you refer to are highly successful but are attempting to correct a problem after the beat has taken place whereas we prefer to first manage the issue prior to the beat. Timing is everything.

The problem is NOT vibration. Vibration related to sonic contains all the dynamics and harmonic structures we seek as audiophiles, music lovers and listeners. The problem is resonance build up that is formed from vibration - a returning polarity of shear wave energy that clogs up all signal pathways (mechanical, electromechanical and acoustic) hence lacking a more efficient high-speed mechanical grounding structure. Resonant Energy Transfer provides resonance an expedient exit away from chassis and/or structure to ground establishing greater operational efficiency.

Robert - Star Sound

PS: and Geoffrey, before you come back with that old “our way or the highway” thing - Resonance Transfer is neither. It is new, provides undeniable audible results and has the capability for scale; advancing growth potential for other industry outside of audio.