Lack of Female Representation

@nonoise Now why did you have to bring up therapy? For some of those on Audiogon, they tried therapy in the attempt to reconcile the issues with their first four marriages, so, apparently therapy just doesn't work! ;-)

My bad.

Simple really, women just aren't as obsessed.Women I've known, Women I've been with love listening to music. Their just not as anal retentive as Men. Their not going to lose sleep over it. 

I will make the same effort to accommodate a women as I would a man. How could a woman expect more? Anything else is patronizing and true chauvinism. Because there is no universal female experience, everything is individual perception and as such can only addressed individually. Same applies for all the other so-called "systemics". By telling someone what to expect you can influence the expectation.

If by referring to me as a primitive you imply a desire to go back to the days of open discourse, lack of cancel-culture, teachers that dont socially indoctrinate, open college forums, willingness to embrace our actual history, rejection of societal androgenization, recognition/reward, etc then I am definitely a primitive and I wear this badge proudly. 

What do you suggest we do to increase female participation? 

@nonoise Now why did you have to bring up therapy? For some of those on Audiogon, they tried therapy in the attempt to reconcile the issues with their first four marriages, so, apparently therapy just doesn't work! ;-) 

Amazing how some of these responses boil down to nothing more than, "too bad, grow thicker skin, I'm not gonna change or make any effort to accommodate you, It's your perception which is wrong, etc."

All of that is just validation of how immutably primitive some can be. It also brings out other, associated realms of like thinking (politics) and conflates the two.

This is like going into a therapy session with the intent of telling off the therapist. You go, dudes.

All the best,
Nonoise

I’m noticing a big change in an associated field... Music Production. As an audio engineer/hobbyist, I notice many more women getting into audio & video production, and rock bands. Just look at YouTube and you’ll see amazing women drummers and guitarists making their own videos, and Killing it! 10 years ago it was still a novelty to see a woman in a rock band, and now a 50/50 split is not uncommon at all. I see a lot of change in the music world, but I don’t know if that will filter down into audiophile land. I see YouTube as a great equalizer. It allows young women to learn things that previously they’d have to "break into the boy’s club" to do. Joining a band as the only girl to learn how to play guitar is a big obstacle.  But learning at home watching YouTube videos is safe & comfortable.  This goes for many other fields of study too... machining, woodworking, photography. YouTube has issues, no doubt, but it is a treasure trove of "how-to" information.  Even for audiophiles!

Did you ever think that sgreg was being deliberately provocative to get the sensitive among us upset? Good on you if you were joking. If not then I think it may be time to revaluate your relationship. Just sayin!

Guilty as charged. Always fun to poke the bears and see how they respond.

@ audition__audio   Agree with you 100%. If women want to enter the  world of High Fidelity Music, they are very  welcome to do so...it's not like Hifi Stores have guards outside that turn them a way when they want to make a purchase, but the insinuation that sexism has something to do with this is just a sexist opinion in of itself. 
These white Knight "Allies" are cringe as far as I am concerned, and most  women find them equally repulsive. 
Men are expected to capitulate at every turn to these overgrown children, we cannot have a community of any sort,  without  being labeled as boorish bigots. 

@lexx21 

excellent post - fun to read, put smile on my face!  

I have to say that my wife turned out to not be the typical woman. I don't mean the term "typical woman" in any derogatory way.

She knows how to drive a tractor, use a chainsaw (which scares the crap out of me quite honestly), is a writer, and a lover of music. Just about every night we sit together in our listening room and listen to vinyl together. She appreciates the improvements that I make to our system and gives me very honest and specific critiques.

I do save money to spend on our system. I have an allowance. I ordered a Technics 1200g a couple of months back and after explaining why I picked that specific table, she was cool with it. She understands my reasoning (or at least nods her head.... I think of her chainsaw abilities at times) and realizes that I am trying to build my retirement system. She gets that. She also enjoys the end result. I don't expect her to know brand details and spec sheets. That is my thing. Hers is the enjoyment of the end product. I would say that at this point, she is as close to being an audiophile as I could hope for.

At events that I like to go to (hamfest events) she is right there beside me digging through boxes looking for oil filled capacitors and the like. I go to her events as well (outlander) so that I can support her in what she likes.

I would say that I lucked out with whom I married. We both value the interests of each other and respect each others views. We share many of the same interests and value what is important to one another.
As a side note, I would love to hear more from the female audiophile side of the room, not just the jaded old farts that we have running around here (yeah, I can be one myself at times). Your opinions are very welcome.

sgreg1,
You can complain a bout her all that you want, but YOU chose her and married her.

Did you ever think that sgreg was being deliberately provocative to get the sensitive among us upset? Good on you if you were joking. If not then I think it may be time to revaluate your relationship. Just sayin!

I called this thread to my girlfriend's attention.  Want to comment I asked?  "No".  So I will speak for her.  Put words into her mouth.  I am allowed to do this with Audio.  She doesn't care.

I have met "Audiophile" women.  Walk the walk, talk the talk  type of Audiophiles.   Knew equipment, manufactures, specs... 12ax7, 6550 made sense to them.  Very very few.

My girlfriend loves music.   She CAN nitpick sound better than I.  Does not know that terminology.  But notices, Why does ______ sounds so and so? Glory hallelujah  she noticed amongst other things the string bass sounded better than the old speakers.  Ultimately does not care.  Most women don't care about the "hobby".  She/they are more about what they look like.  Organization.  Keep the speakers out of her way.  Little apartment, I can appreciate that one.  She's not one to sit and concentrate on the presentation.  She's doing other things while the music plays.  Most of the time I do the same.  It's playing right now while I'm typing this.  While very few women do indulge in audio like we do.  Most don't care. Men and Women.  What come out of their smart phones is just fine.

@sgreg1


Your wife's attorney is holding for you on line one....

@au_lait 

+1 and you could have ended your post with a "mic drop"! Thank you for posting.

Please don't encourage them into the hobby. My time listening to music is first the thorough enjoyment of the music and the very close second is not having to be in the room with my wife. My wife could not tell the difference between am radio and my reference system. Same way she cant tell the difference between 4k, 1080p, or analog tube tv. Some have and some will tell me she can but she doesn't care. I will challenge you on that maybe, as soon as i find something she does care about other than bitching every second.

Healthy

My wife has a different ear than I do, I have a different sense of rhythm than she does, she has a different affinity for lyrics, I have a different understanding of context. There are things we value in each other's taste and knowledge. None of this is because I am a man or she is a woman, but because we are different people with different upbringings, experiences and personalities. I watched my engineer father berate my musician mother my whole life, and I don't raise my son to speak to or of anyone that way. I would love to say humans are well beyond the need to generalize and assign each other stereotypes based on gender or race, but when reading through this thread and a few others, I see there probably wont be much advancement until those mentalities who refuse to evolve simply expire.

Depends on the panel and the experts who participate, which is why you'd need as broad a consensus as possible, staying within sane constraints.

All the best,
Nonoise

But the problem is that the experts invited will mirror the inclinations of the party connected and the special interests therein. I dont think the results would change. 

audition_audio, 
All I'm asking for is representative balance. Men have just as important things to say about women's issues as women do about men's issues. 
To stack things so as to eliminate other POVs and the groups directly affected is a joke and will achieve nothing and ensure that nothing is accomplished that would benefit the wrongly affected.

All the best,
Nonoise

You mentioned invisible people, lack of education, fake news and perhaps some other stuff that I cant recall. At its core you are implying that only the chauvinists suffer from the above and certainly not your women friend who is higher up in Birkenstock. If you tell me that you dont equate certain social and political views with the above then I apologize. Oh and I love it when you express your views. What a drag to have a world that sees all things as I do. My responses dont indicate a lack of respect just a difference of opinion. If I made an inappropriate jump then I am sorry. 

Dont use a 6SL7 in place of a 6SN7. Damage isnt likely but may be possible. I would probably bi-wire but for different reasons than most.

@audition__audio

jjss49 I love the way you equate social and political opinions with notions of worth.

didn’t say that, didn’t mean that, so not sure what you mean... peace bro - you express your thoughts, i will express mine, ok? 

anyways, no matter, back to our regular programming... should we bi-wire or use jumpers? what happens when you stick a 6sl7 into a 6sn7 circuit? 🤣

The best way to help our gender challenged hobby is from the inside. Sorry but if I were to pick a female dominated hobby, I wouldnt expect them to change anything to accommodate me. In fact, if they did I would it very offensive. But I like discourse, a bit of chaos and a good fight. I am sure that women participate in locker room talk and might (GASP) say something that might insult me as a man. I would expect a few of the veterans in the group to talk down to me or look past me from time to time. I wouldnt automatically assume it was because I was a man. Why not concentrate on the welcoming majority instead of fixating on what you have been told you should expect from a bunch of men.

Nonoise, so should be expect congressional hearings to only be populated by those who are most directly affected? You will get just a diverse response from a bunch of random women on womens rights as you would from a panel of men from different social and economic backgrounds. But I am sure that all women have the same view on abortion just as an example. How about 1 token man in this hearing?Gender and racial experience is not universal, nor is the way experiences are perceived. Sounds good if you dont give it much thought.

I'm happy to report that disapproval of my stereo obsession is not only nearly universal among those I hang with, it's divided a near perfect fifty percent by gender. This website might actually be the only place I get support for my obsession.  Bruddahs and sistahs, I embrace you. Even the snarky ones!

This is working out like one of those congressional hearings on women's rights and health issues using an all male panel, backed by all male "experts."

The irony abounds.......

All the best,
Nonoise

Please don't encourage them into the hobby. My time listening to music is first the thorough enjoyment of the music and the very close second is not having to be in the room with my wife. My wife could not tell the difference between am radio and my reference system. Same way she cant tell the difference between 4k, 1080p, or analog tube tv. Some have and some will tell me she can but she doesn't care. I will challenge you on that maybe, as soon as i find something she does care about other than bitching every second. 

I think this thread is a good example of why most people (regardless of gender, ethnicity or age) think twice before posting. I bet there's a damn sight more knowledge, experience and wisdom among the lurkers than there is among the sum of contributors. It's just unfortunate that so many threads get dominated by the blowhards or descend into a war between two factions.
A bit of humility would go a long way for all of us... and then maybe the membership might be a little more diverse and we might all learn a little bit more... not holding my breath.

I tend to listen to sounds. My wife tends to listen to lyrics. Together we make a pretty good team.

Kindest Regards,
Mike

This has always puzzled me as well; it's not like women can't tell the difference in sound quality of various gear, and I'd think most of those would prefer something that sounds better than something else. So I don't know why this seems to approach 100% male audiophiles; I wish more women were into it.

'Half the 'Goners are women'? Maybe so, but I'd like to see how that statistic was arrived at. Half the people at audio shows and in hi-fi shops sure are not women; more like 5% from my observations. And explaining is explaining, I don't care if it's a man or a woman - never could understand this 'mansplaining' stuff... 

Well if anonymity is such a concern, perhaps we should all use our actual names. 

Did you ever consider that some of the of the problems experienced by these female enthusiasts were issues with perception and not reality? To assume that these members speak for all women and that their shared experiences are universal is very dangerous. The kinder and gentler among use readily accept this as fact because it fits very neatly into the narrative and world view.

If you really want issues of race and gender to disappear, then quit calling attention to it and expect no special accommodation when you start to participate in a staid hobby like audio. The best way to affect change is to get over the feelings of discomfort and show these old farts that you have something to offer. Yes I did suggest that some of us step out of our comfort zones for just a moment. Some things in life arent easy as much as current trends would like to suggest that they should be.

jjss49 I love the way you equate social and political opinions with notions of worth.  

Of course there are lots of women audiophiles!  I run into them all the time at flea markets and music stores.  I spoke with my nieces, both audiophiles, and they spend their time listening to music (and living life).  They don’t particularly care to be mansplained to about things so they avoid forums populated by middle-aged white guys.  

I’ve been spending a disproportionate amount of my income on audio hi-fi equipment for about 25 years and I can only speak from my own observations. All of the women I’ve ever known, dated or friends, thought I was crazy to spend that much to listen to music, and all in their own homes were content with smallish Best-Buy type “systems,” if they even had those. No opinions, just my observations. 

@ghasley Just to let you know that I never thought for a moment that you were being disrespectful. Honestly, I do not think women in forums (this is the only forum I am in besides Roon) are that sensitive at all. It takes a much bigger push. 
And I should mention that most of the guys have been helpful beyond my expectations when I was buying equipment.

Wow some of the answers in this post were shocking. I am a female audiophile and started my love at an early age. I was the one in a family with three brothers who had the record player and bought the records in the late 60's. I was one of several women in our local camera club. Worked at Tech Hifi with another woman audiophile. I heard many male clients use the wife excuse. Later when I met their wives the main reason they were not audiophiles were they didn't have control of the household money. They had no control over discretionary spending. There household budget went to raising kids. The man cave was off limits. My love for live performances was the main driver in trying to capture that sound at home. I didn't want the biggest speaker so I could out due my other audiophiles. I wanted the best sound. I was not interested in constantly chasing the next new cable, amp or tonearm. I carefully crafted the sound I wanted in my system. Once I was happy with my system I was not interested in hanging out with a group of people who tested cables for the fun of it. I like passively reading reviews and keeping up with the technology I just didn't want to spend my free time listening to a group of men talking cables, making sexist jokes and talking around me and not to me. Some things have changed over the years. Happy to see the SF audiophile group President is a woman. Not all the men treat us less than equal. But reading these comments that I hoped were trying to be funny with the my wife jokes I realized maybe times have not changed. 

anonymity on these sites definitely brings out the worst in people, unfortunately -- it is cowardly

human nature is frail and often dark, and not aided by poor education, and exacerbated poor choices in sources of information and discussion

it is the case with large swaths of our populace at this point... perhaps always been the case, now the internet gives an open avenue

but then again i suspect many of these folks are rarely given the time of day in real life situations, or an ear to listen to what they want to say, so they lash out and act out here

there many good aspects of signing in here, this is one of the bad

Funny Girl,  Women don't get paid as much as men.  lol  ,  No they make more $$$    Don't make the blanket statement     Try the Example  

Funny. I asked exactly the same question awhile back and the results were identical. People voiced their opinions and there was some back and forth on why, but everyone took the question for what is was.
Except for that one person, who seems completely incapable of seeing both sides of any topic.

@just_krissy I’m ashamed at some of the commentary I see posted but the good riddance comment may take the prize. Ive often wondered if removing the cloak of anonymity would help those inclined to be rude or cruel to be less so. It seems the pushy bullies try to impose their beliefs on the community and sometimes they succeed. Hang in there, we need more diverse opinions and certainly the bullies will hate that.

Over the last three years of posting in these forums, I have been called a “fool” a “clown” and my favorite, “a wedgie”.  I won’t name the fella who said “good riddance” to my beloved Timmy on his RIP page. ❤️🌹🌹❤️❤️
The collective Intellect of members who actively post can be overwhelming and the insults can fly!  🤬 
Perhaps more female audiophiles would feel comfortable posting if there were rules of engagement? 
Happy listening, gents ❤️🌹🥰

Because even women who are nerdy enough do it better and more subtly. 

Like most things in life it comes down to the 80 - 20 rule. 
80% of women are into breeding & yacking. 

This might well be the most impressive, terse combination of ignorance and insensitivity that I've ever come across.

ssmaudio & ncbassplayer have pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Like most things in life it comes down to the 80 - 20 rule.
80% of women are into breeding & yacking.
Anything that deviates from the trajectory of those orbits, either financially or chronologically is considered by them to be stupid.

As for the other 20% ..... IMHO that’s where value is found.

I wonder what Yuja Wang uses for a system.

@theo714 
@atanarjuat99 

thank you for your comments

you are welcome here and we are lucky have you among us in this lovely pursuit

Because audiophile listening at home is essentially a non-social, isolated, individualistic pastime. 

However women are social animals, needing to converse, chat, hug, share, interact, etc. etc.

They just have no interest in spending so much time on a totally isolated, individualistic, non-sharing pastime.

This thread taught me two things. 1. Audiophiles (male) are the utmost authority on the female psyche. 2. I must not be an Audiophile ...

It’s perfect, really. It couldn’t be more obvious. A female audiophile chimes in and after more than twenty posts following hers there is only one with any kind of acknowledgment; never mind, engagement for further thoughts from her.

Welcome, theo714! Could you please elaborate on your thoughts and on some of the stated (presumed) “reasons” expressed so far? What could male audiophiles do to be more welcoming? Have you found a connection between this attitude and the stances taken on favorite audio topics such as “subjectivity vs objectivity”, obsessive tweaking, music? Or, any related things that come to mind?

Thanks, and welcome again.

The story continues...

ozzy

@ozzy "Just a story"? It was still unequal 10 years ago for objectively equal work/experience. The gap has closed and in many organizations affirmative steps were taken. I hope the trend continues. In exceptional organizations, it is almost a distant memory. Almost. It wasn't that long ago that the rationalization was "the man has a family to support" which was BS then and now.

The unequal pay is just a story created by the ------.

If you are salaried worker and given raises for job performance, eventually, the salary gap will continue to grow, compared to women who usually have less seniority. Same credentials (if that is even possible) and time of service the amount of the paycheck is a toss up.

If we are talking about union jobs they all pay the same based on job classification.

Woman tend to gravitate to the jobs that are more civilized while men take the crap jobs. Ever see a woman garbage "person" ?

ozzy