Hi guys, I am trying very soon the Luxman monos M900. I am wondering based on your experience and knowledge which speakers of these two would be a better match for them? My room 18x12. High ceilings. I prefer low volume music effortless neutral sound. I had owned KEF 3 and I liked them a lot. But today I asked three dealers and I got mixed opinions. I do appreciate your time giving me your opinion. Kind regards. Thank you.
@mountainsong At the onset of his recent sales novella, he asked me “do you think.......”
I simply felt compelled to answer that question and to your point regarding dealers I totally agree, absolutely necessary. However, we don’t need a constant barrage of salesmanship dispensed under the guise of experience and audio wisdom. The best dealer/members posting here don’t behave like a self absorbed know it all. Atmasphere, Audioconnection and Ramtubes illustrate my point.
I´ve owned the original C4s almost since they came out and over the years have listened to some pretty well regarded speakers since then, (including but not limited to the original Blades, not the 2s, older KEFs, Avalon, Proac, Pass´active Rushmores,Harbeth, Martin Logan CLX, Raidho, Sonus Faber and others),when the upgrade itch unsettled my tranquility and sense of satistfaction with what I already had acheived in putting together my sytem. In fact I was very interested in the Blades based on curiosity concerning their concentric driver and I must admit their great looks from an industrial design perspective. As always personal taste will influence opinion so let me describe mine. What I´ve noticed over the years is the tendency in hi end design is towards speed, ¨accuracy¨ ?, detail, resolution, resolution and more resolution. Definitely not my cup of tea since most recordings are not up to snuff to be held up so close to such inspection. Most of the above descriptions about the C4s seem to me pretty accurate. They do need volume turned up to sound their best and that requires plenty of current. Also needed is plenty of space for them to open up and project a huge soundstage with electrostatic like coheviseness and imaging. Bass can be pretty awesome, almost full range but not quite with one caveat. Unles they have enough space they will sound muddied and indistinct as Atkinson described in his review. Not only that but the midrange and treble will suffer as a result. I wonder why he even bothers to review full range speakers with his obvious limitation in room size.Many find their treble response subdued, specially compared to the ilk of metalic or ceramic tweeters. Personally I was convinced by the Esotar tweeter ever since I heard them on Sonus Faber Extremas. In fact only some ribbon or plasma tweeters I consider superior and then there are implications in integrating those with drivers of different materials but that is totally different matter. But summing it up, the main reason I have kept my C4s thru the years is as their publicity used to push is their total honesty to the source. As an example there is an older late 50´s mono recording of a string quartett that I use to evaluate string tone which was obviously recorded using tubes. Well you would swear my system was tube based which it is not. SS pre and 400 watt mono amps ! So as you can see I´m pretty biased towards the C4s but based on your described room conditions I´m pretty sure they are not for you at this time. I´d look more at different the Harbeth offerings, all great speakers at their and I stress reasonable price points or just keep your speakers that seem to satisfy you. Changes are not always for the best. On a further point, has anyone noticed that KEFs top of the line $150,000 USD Muon is a total ripoff of the C4s cabinet design ?
Steve59, we have to agree to disagree, over the years we have seen large expensive speakers shoe horned into less then ideal rooms with sometimes surprisingly fantastic results. The key is how the system is tuned and how the system is adjusted. Systems which do have external subwoofers that are part of the system, speakers such as the Scaena Iso Arrays, which have adjustable gain for the woofers worked great in two of our clients rooms that weren’t large at all.
We demoed the Paradigm Persona 9H a speaker capable of 22hz bass response in a rather ordinary sized hotel room again with fantastic results and the same thing with the Legacy Aeris. With today’s higher end dsp based room corrections systems you can solve the biggest issue in hifi which is bass which can over load the room and become boomy and ill-defined.
Even rooms and systems without Dsp you can use bass traps and custom hemholtz resonators to tune out the worst offending frequencies. Our general philosophy is big room big speaker, small room small speaker, but as illustrated careful system matching and tuning can many times overcome the perceived issues. With the desire to have X product and its intrinsic sound qualities and strengths and weakness in your room and commitment to getting it right you can accomplish things that shouldn’t sound right sounding pretty awesome.
xti16 just made a good point most speakers sound best a few feet from surrounding walls so either way you'll probably be listening pretty close to the speakers, not a bad thing, but know what the speakers were designed for. How did you narrow your list down to the 2 speakers? At Axpona this spring I could list on one hand the BIG speakers that sounded good to me in the hotel rooms, Maggies, carver, revel... while I wanted to buy every small speaker I heard!
I'm coming to the opinion that once I get past the $4-5000 mark the room decides what sounds better between competent brands.
From our experience the Blade 2 will work in a smaller room, then you think. We just put out the KEF Ref 5 which are nearly exactly the same in terms of specs vs the Blades, our smaller demo room is 18 by 14 and the Ref 5 sound fantastic in that room. Our Blades are shown in our reference demo room which is 26 by 20 and the Blades do a fantastic job in that room.
The best thing is obviously to hear them in your room or at least in a similar sized room. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ
@mountainsong Are the speakers going to be on the 12’ or 18’ wall? If on the 18’ wall I personally think either speaker speaker would be too much. On the 12’ wall either would be fine. Is there anyway you can demo the speakers? Both are really different sounding. If you can I would also suggest bringing your amp cables and source. It can really make a difference. I say that because dealer will usually set up their systems with top end cables and amps for demo to show what they are capable of. They can make a significant difference to the point if you were to buy and get it home and say why doesn’t this sound as good as at the dealers. A lot of Dyn folks will say the Blades are too forward and bright and I’ll bet most Blade owners would say Dyn’s are too laid back and dark.
Everyone has a personal opinion and I find the Audio Doctor has their opinions just like other folks who are not dealers (honestly to me most non dealers are the most biased). BTW I commend the Audio Doctor for disclosing he is a dealer.
My local dealer carries Dynaudio - Focal - Kudos - Scansonic - Raidho and soon Borresen speakers. It amazes he how most of his customers are dedicated to only one brand and refuse to even listen to others. I think all his speakers are very good but I too have my favorite.
Wcfeil. As I mentioned before I started this discussion and I do prefer to be focus in the topic I brough for advice. I do appreciate Audio Doctor all your time and advice on the two speaker model. Without dealers support our hobby is in serious trouble so please no point on ongoing criticism based on assumptions... Thanks
Wcfeil, we really don't care that tatyana69 bought a pair of B&W 800d3 good for him if he liked them it is his money. However, the discussion as mentioned by us as well as posters such a Ricrid1 is that you should form a composite of opinions by hearing a product under the same of similar conditions or at least comparable demoing types of rigs. Do you think that a pair of KEF Blades or B&W 800D3 or Focal Sopra 3 or any super high end $20-35k set of loudspeaker is going to sound its best being driven by a: $3,000.00 integrated amp and $300 speaker cables?
vs
a $10-20k amplifier and $3k worth of cabling? Do you honestly think that all stores are going to demo with the same levels of equipment? It really comes down to the store, it also comes down to the products the store sells and their ability to put together a synergistic match of cabling, electronics and source components as well as the room that is being demoed in.
We demo our Kef Blades or Persona or Legacy on suitable gear, cabling and source components which means a $20-100k worth of products depending on the exact combination of which products we are going to demo, to think you can slap any old combo of anything on a true reference grade loudspeaker is madness, it is like buying a Porsch 911 Turbo, putting in 85 octane gas, and replacing its stock tires with some cheap glass ply tires and expecting the car to perform as intended. Our Reference Rig: T+A PA 3000 HV power amplifier $19kT+A P 3000 HV preamplifier $16kDigital from $8k Aqua Hifi Lascala to $35k Light Harmonic Davinci Dual Dac Power conditioning Audio Magic Oracle $9k for sources and digital Audio Magic Oracle Amp $3kThat is not including cabling, room tuning etc. We have played the Blades on much less expensive gear and yes they sound good but not the magical sound we get. One telling observation of a well setup system was our setup at the New York Audio Show 2012 was $50k worth of Chord, $22k Dac lots of expensive cabling total system was about $150k with the Blades
down the hall YG Acoustics Sonya $107K, Solution Monos $80k Solution Pre $40k cabling etc system price close to $400k That system wasn't one bit better then our rig, verdict if you feed Reference grade loudspeakers properly the results can be spectacular. We would say a properly set up pair of these reference loudspeakers from KEF, B&W or Paradigm, can easily do battle with a $100k plus pair of loudspeakers.
So yes setup is everything. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ
@tatyana69 Well, that’s not good for you. Very soon audiotroy will be along to say: 1. What you heard wasn’t real or 2. What you heard was real but you weren’t listening correctly or 3. The amplification wasn’t what he sells or 4. The cables weren’t a brand he recommends or 5. The room wasn’t set up properly or 6. The source wasn’t revealing enough for the audition or 7. A listening session at his dealership will change your mind
I'm not a dealer and I don't own KEF speakers. You may not have a preference for the Blades, but I will tell you the room and/or equipment can significantly affect the overall sound. I initially heard the Blades at RMAF a couple of years ago and really didn't like them. I heard them a couple of times since and like most good speakers, they sound different depending on the rest of the system/room.
I read up about the blades and went to a dealer for a test - well prepared to buy. I was thinking of replacing my Proac Carbon 8s which were a little soft for me. I compared the Blades with B&W 802d3s. Just as well, because I was sooooo disappointed in the Blades - very weak, not as clean as B&W, did not separate some guitars like the B&Ws. I bought in the end the B&W800d3s and I am pleased
I think a thorough audition is a must, escpecially at this price point. I have been to several shows and not impressed with the Blades considering their cost. However, my good audio friend thinks they are outstanding.
@mgrif104 my teenager daughter can care less about audio equipment. Well, not sure about that. If Apple ever got in to the audio equipment I am sure she might be on board.
it bugs me to hear her listen from her iPhone or MacBook when she could listen from so much better. She wants a minimalist look with no wires and seamless interface using Spotify or something similar that looks good. I might try ls50 wireless or some other modern all in one speaker. To see if that takes
Based on my daughter and her friends, who appear to share her attitude, I believe we will see a shift in hi-end audio that comes from a small footprint. She thinks I am crazy to have a class a amp, with pre along the cabling.
Interesting that the main reason that I came over here asking for advice it is changing to a total different topic! No that I am not interested and I respect audio doctor as a dealer. But we can start another forum just for the second topic alone. I do appreciate taking your time posting with answer to my question. Kind regards
Mgrif104, Thank you! We post for a lot of reasons, one is to help grow our business, the other is to offer what we hope is construed as good advice and the third is to call attention to really outstanding products that we have discovered and put out, and fourth to possibly offer some rational commentary about other products that may be or should be considered when product X is being discussed.
When you have been doing this professionally for 30 years you generally learn a lot and the magazines, don't necessairly tell the whole picture.
We are always experimenting with new products in the recent 2 years we added: ATC, Quad, Innous Servers, Mytek, Naim's new Uniti Atom, Star and Nova, now adding a Naim NAP 300 power amp, Legacy, Rethem, Elac, new Paradigm Dominance Subwoofer, Anthem STR, Anthem separates, Micromega M100, Light Harmonic Davinci, Aqua Hifi Formula, Rega P3 and I am sure we are missing something.
New products we are bringing in Lumin X1, Naim NDX2, new Audioquest Power Cabling, and a few other new toys.
If you look at one of the posts we started which was removed, the moderators have a lot of issues, was to draw attention to the Micromega M100.
We heard a lot of great things about the Micromega and was intrigued to find a product that had a similar qualities to the Devialet which was a little too sterile. We liked the fact that the Micromega was $3,000 cheaper, had a room correction option, and used a Class A/B amplifier.
Once we got the Micromega it was wonderful so we started a post and boom it started getting traction and finally a few people decided to take the plunge and purchase the M100, unfortunatly not from us, and the posters loved the product.
We have one of the largest collections of gear in the tristate area and are always playing with new combinations to find what we hope will be the best products for our clients.
Hardly drinking any cool aid. Just appreciating reasonable discussion which I find he offers - even when I disagree. The hostility some show on these forums is just silly and unwarranted.
I regularly read how our hobby is slowly dying as audiophiles age out and younger listeners stream into earbuds off their phones, not experiencing what good reproduction can sound like. Yet, we come to these forums and tell dealers to keep their business, advice and opinions out of here. So he’s trying to grow his business while adding to the collective discussion. Why is that bad when it’s disclosed?
The last thing we need is for dealers to close up shop and go away. We all lose.
I find the reflexive hostility to audiotroy on these forums to be undeserved. Yes, he’s a dealer - which he discloses. Yes, he has brand preferences - which he discloses. Every other person who participates in these forums also has biases - most of which they don’t admit or recognize. I find his contributions to be fair and far more informative than most participants, even if I may not agree with his conclusions or views. I, for one, am grateful that a dealer chooses to be active here as it adds to the collective knowledge base and to lively discussion. Those who just reflexively dismiss his contributions just because he’s a dealer are the ones devaluing the discussion and the thread. Frankly, Audiotroy sounds like he is a better dealer than most. I’ve heard far too many demos where I walked away unimpressed because the synergy wasn’t there. (Pretty much every demo of B&W/McIntosh). It was clear they didn’t do system matching, or take care in set up. So, thank you audiotroy for your thoughtful participation and for continuing your contributions in the face of unfair criticism. And, by the way, I’ve never done business with him/them - only my local dealer and used gear through audiogon.
I find the reflexive hostility to audiotroy on these forums to be undeserved. Yes, he’s a dealer - which he discloses. Yes, he has brand preferences - which he discloses. Every other person who participates in these forums also has biases - most of which they don’t admit or recognize. I find his contributions to be fair and far more informative than most participants, even if I may not agree with his conclusions or views. I, for one, am grateful that a dealer chooses to be active here as it adds to the collective knowledge base and to lively discussion. Those who just reflexively dismiss his contributions just because he’s a dealer are the ones devaluing the discussion and the thread. Frankly, Audiotroy sounds like he is a better dealer than most. I’ve heard far too many demos where I walked away unimpressed because the synergy wasn’t there. (Pretty much every demo of B&W/McIntosh). It was clear they didn’t do system matching, or take care in set up. So, thank you audiotroy for your thoughtful participation and for continuing your contributions in the face of unfair criticism. And, by the way, I’ve never done business with him/them - only my local dealer and used gear through audiogon.
Emaillists, most of the shows that the Blades have been shown at have been setup by KEF and so the partnering gear is usually good but not top of the line electronics, cabling and source components.
Peter Bruninnger of AVS Showrooms, complemented our setup of the Blades saying that in all the times he heard the Blades he never loved them until he heard our setup.
We are not saying that we are necessarily better then any other dealer, only that we put together a well matched setup that did honor to the Blades.
One of the things that we tend to do differently is to try different brands of electronics, cabling and sources until we come up with a synergistic match. Too many dealers will not necessairly go shopping for a new brand of product or products if what they have doesn't really work.
Most people will expect to drive a $25-32k set of speakers with proper matching electronics which in our mind would be $20k+ range of electronics, not including a proper source $7-20k range and matching cabling and power conditioning.
If you look at some of the show setups they have been $5k integrated amps, a laptop vs a dedicated server, and relatively inexpensive cabling.
If you drive the Kef's correctly the top end is detailed with no harshness, you get thunderous deep bass, incredible dynamics and a very wide and well focused soundstage.
The Dynaudio's are very musical speakers their approach to driver design is more old school, Kef is always pushing the boundary of design and technology like very few small companies can do.
If you read the white papers on the Blade and Reference series their are so many advanced technologies seen in these loudspeakers that have been implimented in order to lower distortion and uncover details not seen in other designs.
@pdreher were your C2/4's the originals? I ask because I had the original C1's and later upgraded to the Signatures. The Originals did really need to be very loud to sound the best. The MKII/Sig's on the other hand sounded the best at mid levels. Still sounded great loud but also found the Sig's didn't play quite as loud. I had 2 friends that also had C4 Sig's and they sounded great at mid levels unlike the originals. Never heard the Platinums but heard from some that owned all of them say the Platinums sounded a bit tipped up in the highs.
Dynaudio should be shipping the new Confidence series by the end of the year. I heard they are dropping the Evidence with the new Confidence taking its place. BTW I think the S40's are killer for the money and hope the new Confidence are S40's on steroids. If so Dyn will have some great speakers.
That said everyone has their own tastes and expectations when it comes to SQ. I heard the Blades (not blade2) at 2017 Axpona driven by Hegel. To me the highs were ear piercing. I think we all know rooms at shows are less than ideal. I was with a group of 4. Me and one other person couldn't tolerate the highs. One said they were OK and he was a former C4 Sig owner. The last liked them a lot and he is a current C4 Sig owner. IMO the Dyn's are laid back where the Blades were more dynamic - forward and tipped up. I preferred the Dyn's. As a previous Dyn lover and owner I now have Raidho. Went from the Dyn C1 Sig to the Raidho D1 then D2 then D2.1 and now the D3.1. I did have a 10 day in home demo of the original Dyn C2's and liked the C1's better in my room.
BTW my room is 14' X 26 1/2' with speakers on the long wall.
I've owned C2's an C4's. Both require higher volume to sound their best... so I'd take Dynaudio out of consideration if you prefer listening at low volume. I moved on to Harbeth M-40.1's and never looked back. The 40.1's perform well at low to medium volume, but lack the modern aesthetics of the C4's and KEF Blades. I'd add Verity, Acoustic Zen and Sonus Faber to your list of speaker brands to consider.
I was so excited to hear the blades when first released, then the blade 2. I heard them at one of the audio shows, and on several occasions. Being a fan of concentric drivers, and looking at the cabinet design, I thought they would have been ideal. However I didn't hear anything in them that had the realism ( or any of the other sonic quality) of the TAD concentric drivers in the CR1'S.
In my experience of spending countless hours infront of REF 1/3/5 and Blade/2, plus many other brands, as mentioned the REF’s are truly outstanding in every aspect, build quality, design,sound reproduction and also hand built here in the good old UK. I was lucky enough to be invited to the factory back in 2015 for a tour, including the workshops and labs. Everyone I met from designer, to builder, to floor sweeper to tea maker, was dedicated and all loved, were passionate about and believed in the products, with most having worked there for years (some 30+ years) now that’s dedication .
Everything I heard and loved regarding the REF’s was taken to the next level and then some when I heard Blade & Blade 2 (and th n the Muon) No other way to put it really, And this is saying something as the REF’s are more than any one would really need, but the Blades just did everything better, cleaner. Also don’t forget they are, in my opinion, jaw droppingly stunning in design. Every show I ever attended people flocked around them.
the REF 5 are a truly amazing piece of kit, but the Blade 2 is just that bit more, and so it should be, it was designed to be just that, the best it could be for the budget they had to develop it, and Dr Oclee and his team did an amazing job, the guy is a genius and a nice bloke as well. Demo them and take your time with this, what ever you go for your going to be a happy chap. Good luck
Buying direct offers far less advantages then by purchasing directly from a dealer. Even if Kef uses a local dealer, do you think the local dealer would be compensated the same way?
Your local dealer can do things that buying direct can not, they can make sure you are happy and if you are not happy with the product they may be able to take it back and swap out for another line, in terms of pricing, a local dealer may be able to do better, Kef Direct offers only full MSRP.
I have the C4 but only listened the the Kef Blade at the show so it may be not fair to compare. The Kef Blade is not my cup of tea. It sounded thin and cold comparing to the C4
Audiotroy thank you. Do you think the blades 2 will be an step up from the reference 5. I like the look of traditional speaker more but performance is what really counts. Thanks
I am using in a second system a pair of Dynaudio special 40. All can I say is wow. That's one of the reasons that I started getting curious about the confidence line. I just can imagine the C4 platinum sound. But KEF reference is a sound I already like. I need to decide in the next week. Regards
yyzsantabarbara, my room is a only a bit bigger than yours. I did not have the Blade 2s in my room, but my dealer had a room where we could replicate my room fairly well so, though not perfect, I was able to get a feel for how they would sound when I got home. He did offer to let me take them home to audition, but I took the Reference 5 home first, tuned them to the room and they never left. My speakers are 10' apart and I sit 9' from them (a picture of my setup is in virtual systems).
Well, while the Doc makes house calls, he seems to have erred in his differential diagnosis and missed the central proposition for me: I believe without question that KEF makes fine products, but if the warranty, as it is for me, fails of its essential purpose owing to distance, it is useless, and I believe unconscionable.
So, by all means buy the Blade, but buy it from a retail seller nearby.
I agree you are in a tough position when giving praise to speakers like the Kef Blades which you sell. As you say, many high end dealers choose speaker lines that they are personally impressed by, and can feel good about selling. So naturally you like what you sell. Doesn't invalidate the kudos you give for a speaker.
It sort of reminds me of the common refrain that someone who owns a product is "biased" in his/her opinion because of it. Well, no, not necessarily - the whole reason someone buys, say, a speaker is that they likely compared it to other speakers and came to an opinion on the sound - liked enough to buy.
I own a variety of speakers and can talk about what I like about them, but it's the same reasons as those that brought me to buying them in the first place. Yes we have biases about what sound we personally like; but those are operative before you even bought the speaker.
Maritime that is 1 reason you purchase from a dealer.
If you had purchased from us we would have eaten that shipping cost for both directions unless when Kef received the speakers they found nothing wrong.
The only issue ever had with a pair of kefs was a blown set of tweeters one time and a set of uni-q that were overdriven with a 1,000 watts of power.
That is it. Kef builds fantastic speakers what is causing your distortion is a mystery at this point.
I am happy to see so many responses in a short period. I am just wondering if my room 18x12 will do for the blades. Just concerned that is not wide enough. When I had the reference 3 was OK. Wondering if the ref 5.will fit the bill or I should get the blades 2. Anyone having boomy experience with the blades 2? Thanks
@theothergreg How big is your room? Did you have the Blade 2 in your room to compare with the Ref 5? I am interested because I am going to be putting a Blade 2 in a very small room, maybe 14 x 13. At least for a few years, until I move them to a bigger room.
To Wcfeil, most dealers have the products they have because they make choices based on evaluations and their preferences those evaluations include looking at all the relevant models in a particular price point and considering we sell some of the best loudpseaker lines: including Kef, Dali, PSB, Elac, Quad, ATC, Cabasse, Paradigm, Legacy our choices speak for themselves.
The Dynaudio C4 are an old design, which we feel do not stand out in anyway. One of our clients has the $85k top of the line Dynaudio's they are nice speakers but they don't blow us away for that price point.
As per Blades vs the Ref 5 yes the Ref 5 will work in more rooms based on the tube tunning, if you have the space the Blade 2 are pretty awesome slightly smaller version of the Big Blades, we have the Blades in a 26 by 20 room and they sound fantastic for this room size.
I compared the Blade 2 with the Reference 5 and found that the Reference 5 worked better in my room. The Blades do better away from walls but I was not able to position my speakers more than a foot and a half away from the back wall. The tunable ports of the Reference 5 allowed me to get the sound right within the limitations of my room. As with everything in this hobby, there are no absolutes and preferences are subjective.
Dealers will Always push what they carry! Some directly, some indirectly. I take what they say with a gigantic grain of salt. If I'm truly interested in a product I go listen and let my ears decide.
Thank you. You are talking about big blades. I can't put th in my space. Blades 2 is what I am thinking of. I was told ref 5 were basically the same but now you are making me realize it is not the case. Thanks again.
Take this as you wish, we are a Kef dealer with the Blades on display so we ar going to be biased.
Over the years have heard the Dynaudio C4 and other similar models they sound good, but not amazing, they are smooth , good imagers, and they have respectable bass. The downside vs the Kef Blades is they don’t have the speed and articulation of the Blades, nor do they have the remarkable combination of image size and speficity of the Blades.
So if you like the Kef Rerference series you will be blown away by the Blades which sound even cleaner and more focused then the Ref series, the Blades are the only speaker that Kef makes which employ a lithium stiffening ring bonded to the Uni-Q which is one of the details that elevate the Blades over the Reference.
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