I went to hear Kurt Elling sing last year. He uses his voice as a jazz instrument. I knew it was true jazz because my wife couldn't stand it.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
31,438 responses Add your response
I think the misunderstanding here lies in the term "interpretation". Because it could conceivably apply to such a wide range of scenarios, from very subtle shifts to quite dramatic re-conceptualizations/re-harmonizations, it’s fairly useless. Perhaps the term "invention" might better point to what Jazz improvisers do that goes beyond "interpretation". If you define Jazz vocal improvisation so narrowly as to only include scatting, then you and I have quite different perspectives. What a shame that your wife doesn’t share your enjoyment of Jazz. I’m very lucky; my wife and I have very similar aesthetic tastes across the board. Using one’s voice as an instrument is certainly one aspect of Jazz singing. I don’t believe Sinatra could accurately be described in such terms but no doubt, some would disagree.
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stuartk, I don't define jazz vocals as scatting. Billy Holiday does not scat on the records I have by her. I think where we're diverging is that I like to be lost. I like to pose questions I can't answer, and I don't feel the need to know the answer. I spent 10 years writing a novel about a Holocaust survivor who had been an assassin and could no longer love. I was in uncharted territory (this was about twenty years ago) and loved being there. I like research. I am now working on a book asking a question which I don't think anyone else has ever asked, and I have no definitive answer. I feel like an explorer. I have no answer about jazz, either. I just wanted to hear what other people thought. And apparently other people have more definite ideas than I do. So far, I'm kind of taking from all this that perhaps thinking in musical genres is not such a great thing. |
I received my copy of of Antonio Jobim's bossa nova album Wave the other day from discogs. The 1967 Pitman pressing in pretty good condition sonically and materially. Amazingly surprised by just how rich and deep the sound stages on this album musicians are pinpointed across the stage with both depth and breadth and the musicianship and songs are superb. Someone over on Reddit recommended this album so I decided to buy it sound unheard and I'm very happy I did! |
About jazz... I read a decade ago a story of a black musician who decided to go back to Africa to study music there... He encountered a master and discussing with him, the master said listening samplings of western music and jazz, this "does not roll"... "this does not roll either"....Etc...
I am sorry to be unable to retrieve the source of this story on the net....
But think now about a deep observation of Miles Davis which stayed in my mind saying most white musicians "lag behind the beat"and put it next to this African master who claimed most American music jazz or classic "does not roll".... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mLmMQ5vd_Jw?feature=share
What does it means ? It means because of the tradition of written music in the West, musicians trained with written music often "lag behind the beat" and their music often "do not roll"...
A precision: the greatest book on acoustics i ever read was written by A nigerian acoustician, a pure genius, whose doctorate was refused in London but accepted at Sorbonne Paris... I purchase his book and it change my understanding of sound in relation with music completely. His books title is "sounds source" 500 pages. Akpan J. Essien is a genius and a master of the Yoruba speaking drum which was the basis of his doctorate thesis... In my opinion recent research in acoustics confirmed he was right in his criticism of 2,000 years of Acoustic beginning with Pythagoras... Music is not just wave in the air, it is the information of the vibrating sound source qualias, ("Timbre" mystery ) irreducible to linear Fourier mappings, because created by the ears/brain/gesturing body and flowing in his own non linear time domain....
Then Jazz or any music "roll" and flow without "lagging behind the beat" if it is synchronized directly with the playing body and expressing something communicated by the vibrating sound source... https://www.amazon.ca/Sound-Sources-Origin-Auditory-Sensations/dp/1913289540 Here yoruba talking drums to illustrate what kind of music roll and did not lag behind a given beat but emerge with it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZOg4xIiulw&t=1078s
Now i thought few years ago about Furtwangler the genius of Classical orchestra as described by Russian Maestro Gergiev and Ansermet the french genius as transcendent in his understanding of musical time... Here too with Furtwangler in Bruckner, Beethoven Schumann miraculously, the music dont goes behind a prescribed external time and beat but emerge with a time of his own, a time purely musical which no metronomic writings can catch... Furtwangler music "roll" and dont " lag behind the beat"...Gergiev analysed Furtwangler genius and i think he was right on the spot... Especially if we compared with Toscanini, which is surely a great maestro but in my opinion a lesser one, because he impose to the music an external timing of his own without like Furtwangler letting the music spoke as the Yoruba drums spoke too only rolling ... Yoruba masters : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4GXD-7G6T8 These Yoruba drums roll, and create meanings as rythms gesture with no lagging behind the beat... Furtwangler directing the Schuman 4Th symphony, one of the greatest interpretation i ever listened to do the same... It roll.... Furtwangler Schumann 4 th (the greatest Classical music interpretation i ever heard): |
I will only add that Louis Armstrong universal recognized genius on planet earth play and sing always "rolling" never behind the beat.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA&list=PL9FC836A421FE23B0&index=2
my favorite female singer all styles conflated is Marian Anderson: She roll and never lag behind the beat in spirituals or classical :
crucifixion (a spirituals song) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFEOhZ8Jb4 Bach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E7zjNiz2ZI I could give an example of perfect musical time mastery in Fado with Amalia Rodrigues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_-tDYhohag&list=RDEME57zQmiWw8Qt3SWu3xOuWQ&index=15
Why Ray Charles is such a loved genius as Armstrong was ? it roll and never lag : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRgWBN8yt_E
Why "kind of blue" of Miles and Coltrane is a so great success? It roll and never lag.... All the album is ONE single piece of art...
Less known Pat Martino album "formidable" roll too .... Dickerson and Sun Ra Album vision is such masterpiece too ... I will stop here....
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Well, I’ll admit to not enjoying feeling "lost", especially when it comes to language. I don’t mean to come across as unfriendly but the truth is, more you talk about Jazz, the less clear I am about how you define improvisation. interesting. I thought that playing squarely on the beat is more typical of western classically trained musicians -- an approach that in certain African - derived genres is considered decidedly "un-hip". The best musicians are able to feel "the center of the beat" so well that they can "lay back" or "push" the beat according to the desired feel of a particular tune. For example, Muddy Waters demanded his band members be able to play what he called "delay time". According to AI:
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I deliberately used the Miles Davis quote and the anonymus black musician going in Africa Quote which can be misleading.... "lag behind the beat" is an expression used by Miles which can be misleading... Then i use the anecdotal encounter between a jazz musician and an African master to dissipate the misleading meaning which may come from the way Miles explain it...The African master say , "Music must roll"... Now what this means? To explain it i suggested Furtwangler interpretation versus Toscanini about musical time... The key point : musical time cannot be written it is an embodied timing... It can be suggested by the indications in written music for example but cannot be metronomically captured... musical time must be birth with the music itself and cannot be put on the music by any external gesture or intervention... If we do this we act like Toscanini instead of Furtwangler and the music do not "roll" and it lag behind the beat and by beat here i refer to the heart of the playing musician, his gesture, not to a measuring metronomical time which can be imposed on the music...
Then nevermind if we speak of Yoruba drum or Schumann, or about J.J. Johnson playing trombone, the music "roll", "do not lag behind" because the musical time and the beating beats are not metronomically written but felt as pure expression born with the musical gesture not imposed on it... The genre here, African drum, Jazz, Classical matter not; musical time roll or do not roll from the music itself... I refer then to a universal sense of the musical time independent of any culture or genres or styles... Some Indian master playing Sarod or sitar "roll" and are recognized as master precisely because of this timing sense of improvisation with the flow of music... but it can be true even of a piece of written music as the Schumann fourth by Furtwangler where a miracle occur, the music birth his own time as his central meaning thanks to Furtwangler direction who understood this music like God himself or like an African master speaking with his drum... Music any music is rythm, not as a metronome beat but as a heart beat, the timing flow must roll and must not lag behind. If not there is a duality between the music flow and the time dimension... the musician produce a gesture which do not synchonise all the musical parts into one WHOLE.... It is difficult to explain... Remember that i am not as frogman a musician nor as you either stuartk... I apologize for my difficulty to explain it clearly... I tried...
I forget to say that the way A.I. said sometimes the musician deliberately "play behind the beat" this gesture do not contradict my explanation because we speak of musical time as synchonized with the music as a whole or not, then only externally linked to the music... the genre does not matter ... Because we play with a heart beat or with a "measured by numbers" beat, nevermind the styles....Musical time is independent of any genre or style, it differ in all genre but must be in all genre felt as a heart beat of the whole music piece and not appearing as something imposed on the music piece ... I apologize for my explanation which is not clear as crystal...I am not a musiciaqn at all ....
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stuartk, you're not understanding me at all. When I hear a jazz group I can hear what is planned and when a musician goes into improvisation. That's a no brainer. Coltrane on "My Favorite Things" plays with his band the setup going through the melody a few times. Then he goes off on his own and flies high above the band who is just trying to keep up with him. I think I understand jazz a lot better than you think I do. When L.A. had a commercial jazz station they would play what they called "soft" jazz. Sade, Diana Krall, maybe Davis playing "Some Day My Prince Will Come," and Trane playing something off his album "Ballads." I have an extremely abstract ear from listening to "modern" abstract classical. Shostakovich, Bartok, Stravinsky. In modern classical music the beat can be all over the place. Listen to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. I think in the jazz you're talking about nobody is on the beat yet it is implied and they all know where it is. And I know where it is. Coltrane often plays like that. And Davis on some of his later stuff. Bebop has syncopation. In classical music, there is light classical, early classical with composers like Bach, and even up to Mozart. Then the Romantic Era begins with Beethoven and people see that as a more serious classical. And more difficult classical comes with 20th century and 21st century classical. It would be so difficult for me to explain to you my understanding of music, but it begins in the Upper Paleolithic with people who lived in caves. I know nobody knows what that music sounded like, but I think I know why they made music. It was a spititual thing. Just like Coltrane, Sanders, and Davis felt their music was spiritual. And I believe the shamans and creative artists were women. But that's another argument. I'll stop with this. But I think you're really underestimating my understanding of jazz. |
To be clear: the essence of music (Jazz or not) is not improvisation as such but it is rythm (an embodied gesture) . The reason it is such is because the line between what is improvisation or not matter less than the difference between a felt rythm grounded in the musician gesture or a rythm metronomically imposed or used as an habit... |
stuartk, sorry for my tirade. I have to admit that I felt insulted by what you said. I have mentioned how many live jazz concerts I have attended. How would it be possible for me to see so many live jazz concerts and not know what improvisation is? You can see it. Sometimes the band has musical scores which they look at for the setup and then the improviser goes off on their own and the backup no longer look at their scores. In regards to being lost, Malcolm Gladwell talks about types of artists in a New Yorker article called "Late Bloomers." He talks about two kinds of artists. One is exemplified by Picasso whom Gladwell says saw what he was going to paint in his head and then executed it. The other was exemplified by Cezanne who had to find his painting on the canvas while he was working. Action painters like de Kooning and Pollock were lost until they found themselves on the canvas. Another example might be Agatha Christie who did not know the ending of her crime novel until she got there. I think a lot of jazz musicians are lost until they find themselves in the spur of the moment on their instrument. That’s what I mean when I say I like being lost. mahgister, very interesting what you say. I’m particularly interested in the word "gesture." What exactly do you mean by a musical gesture? |
As i said i am not a musician and frogman could explain it better than me... But "a musical gesture" is an embodied rythm... Speech is born from embodied rythm as music is born from it too... In an embodied rythm, musical time is internal to the gesture not external... Poetry as music are grounded in embodied rythms... This embodied rythm transcend all distinction of styles, genres, or the difference between written music and interpretation.. Why ? Because the distance or the frontier separating improvisation from written music is created historically on the surface of the gesturing body of the speaker or of the musician... The embodied rythm is the hidden dimension, the fundamental musical qualia, the underground or the roots of all music...
This is why i could compared speaking about the musical time of musician as different as African yoruba master or Furtwangler... And Jazz musicians between these two extremes... The meaning of music is in the embodied rythm in the gesture... The gesture express the musician body and instrument "timbre" which is a universal of music...The vibrating sound source , violin, drum, singer body, communicate an information about his internal state, his timbre, conveyed by an internal time and timing rythm like a breathing which cannot be captured completely by metronome abstraction...It can be abstractly described but the cost may be loosing his life... It is why the african master said, this do not "roll"... It is why Miles said, this "lag behind the beat"... It is why Gergiev said about Furtwangler that he was among all maestro one who was able to let the music grow with and from his internal time without imposing any external time on it...The music cannot be separated from his timing embodied rythm...
I personaly think music and speech are born from the necessity from the mother communicating with his baby and calming it for survival...The mother body in synch with the baby body...It is also born from the males hunting synchronisation and communication... Hunting is silent music or rythm and speech too... Embodied gestures means gestures executed as a rythm not in a discontinuous way but in a continuous flow... In a collective hunt you must be spontaneously act in an organized musical way...
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@mahgister- "I read a decade ago a story of a black musician who decided to go back to Africa to study music there... He encountered a master and discussing with him, the master said listening samplings of western music and jazz, this "does not roll"... "this does not roll either"....Etc..." The musician is Randy Weston. |
ahhhhh! Thanks a lot this story has stunned me strongly at the times...
I will order the book Asap... https://www.amazon.ca/African-Rhythms-Autobiography-Randy-Weston/dp/0822347849
And this album : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeC68qpIq6s
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It seems i will like Randy Weston music a lot... "The spirit of our ancestors" piece on Youtube remind me of Japan spiritual jazz album...And "Blue Moses" ... It is terrific listening.... Thanks wharfy ... Stunning music for sure : African Cookbook : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sda6b_0Kiak&list=PLSHsLSfbqpJKnqs7sFZCUbkk-0UXy527q&index=5 |
I'm sorry if I insulted you. That wasn't my intention. As I don't know you, all I can do is try to understand you via the particular words that appear on the page in front of me. I must make inferences and inevitably, I will make mistakes. I suspect you are speaking of subtleties that I'm simply unaware of. Unless have a guitar in my hand and am actively trying to work something out using music theory, I tend to revert to the right brain when relating to music. |
maghister, wharfy, I think I understand the concept of a musical gesture. The musical impulse must begin in a human who then has to embody that internal gesture into music, poetry, dance, etc. I think, however, that you are talking about music with a spiritual component. By "spiritual" we may mean different things, but I'll leave it for now. In my poem on Coltrane, I said music comes from the streets, because if you study music it might seem it came from the courts. We must remember that up until Beethoven musicians wrote solely for royalty, and even Beethoven tried to curry the favor of royalty. Therefore, all music had to have pleased the lord for whom it was written. This is still true to some extent in that most musicians write to please the masses. And that has little to do with spirituality in music. I think we should separate music with a spiritual impulse from "chamber" music. To me, some jazz resembles chamber music in that it does not have that spiritual component informing its musical gestures. When Parker played bebop it came from his soul. That is not necessarily true of those who followed him. Coltrane infused his music with his own original musical gestures. (Hope I'm using that word correctly.) John Klemmer who was influenced by Trane was just copying the man, but had no soul.. That's why we call him commercial. Since you brought up poetry, I know all about embodying words with the gesture. My poetry becomes more spiritual the more "lost" I become. In other words, I can't think through it. I just do it. And my best poems have been written that way. In some jazz, although they have improvisation, the improvisation seems "of a piece" with the composition not rising above the written music. When a spiritual musician goes off on a riff, it rises very high into the stratospheres. I disagree with mahgister about his assumption that music was written by men on their hunts. As difficult as it's going to be we need to get beyond the patriarchal lens. Yes, we think of men making art because they have for all the history we know of. I think the first music was integrated with art (body painting and adorrment) and was practiced by men and women. They were first acknowledging their own existence and second expressing awe that their existence was part of the existence of the universe. I'll stop here because it becomes complicated and I don't want to start citing books on the subject. |
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Thanks acman3
I think i love Weston... I have ordered his book... |
I think it was frogman who asked me why I said men swagger with their shoulders and women swagger with their hips. It is because jazz is about swagger, and I was saying that women express themselves artistically differently than men. This difference in the genders is being noticed and embraced among most arts. mahgister mentioned Furtwangler. I hold series tickets to the L.A. Phil and have heard the most important living conductors (which obviously doesn't include Furtwangler). The most exciting conductor I have heard is a woman named Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla. I'd tell you more but this is a jazz thread. I have been attending jazz concerts for over sixty years. One of the most innovative and interesting saxaphonists I have heard is Melissa Aldana. She is young, 36 years old, but obviously brilliant. She composes the music on her album, and whether you like it or not, it is like nothing else you have heard in jazz. I think as jazz aficionados we should all keep our ears open for new, young sounds. Here is a cut from her newest album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1hObK9HiGA |
Agreed! |
The Hap’nin’s Frankie And Johnny Gigi Gryce Quintet - Richard Williams - The Hap’nin’s ℗ 1960 Prestige Records Distributed by Concord. Released on : 1960-01-01 - Recording Engineer: Rudy Van Gelder Producer: Esmond Edwards Mastering Engineer: Phil De Lancie Composer Lyricist: Traditional @acman3 Thank you, for this 1960ish, Jam Session! |
I'm listening to Randy Weston. Like him a lot. I rewatched the first episode of the documenatary "Jazz" last night. Wynton Maralis was their go-to man on the origins of Jazz in New Orleans. The first part went from slavery in the early 1800's up through Ragtime and ended with a tease on Louis Armstrong. The next episode will be much about him and his genius which I had not recognized until I saw this documentary the first time, maybe 15 years ago or more. |
@wharfy I've never even heard of the musician Randy Weston. So thanks for the introduction! |
@tyray - You're welcome! There is so much great jazz out there. This thread, started in 2013, has opened my ears and mind. I'm grateful to all the posters/contributors. |
stuartk, I don't think their art/music has to do with their personalities. I could use actors as a comparison. Personally, some actors are quite modest while others like to fill a room full of people at a party. On stage, they all must "swagger," whether that means playing a timid part or large part. You think about a musician improvising, they have to bring out their inner musical "swagger." (Perhaps a bad word.) In the documentary on jazz, Wynton Marsalis said that jazz was about the musician showing their "personality." And perhaps that is a better word than swagger. He used a very interesting metaphor of a writer and a pencil. The pencil doesn't write the story, the writer does. He was talking about Buddy Bolden who is considered the first jazz musician. Marsalis said that Bolden's coronet did not play the music, Bodlen did. And apparently he had plenty of swagger. One other thing about the first episode of the documentary "Jazz" that really struck me was that for about four decades jazz was the most popular music in the country. That's when people could dance to jazz. I think somewhere in the fifties (after Parker?), it became more cerebral and the mass audience went elsewhere, to rock n' roll, I would guess. Although some jazz players, most of whom I think would be eschewed in this thread, like Diana Krall and Herbie Hancock (he played the tribute to Joni Mitchell in the Hollywood Bowl), most jazz players play in small clubs to a selective, more "cerebral" audience who aren't dancing. Although I like straight-up jazz (I was playing an album of Tina Brooks yesterday), i love jazz that has a dance beat and makes me want to get up off my chair. Lizz Wright has that quality. Here is an excerpt from a review about her in Downbeat: "Lizz Wright comes to her music with equal parts gospel, jazz, r&b and blues. The alto vibrations of her dark-toned, rich voice would sound at home in any church, jazz club, theater or even arena. She’s just that versatile as an artist." |
curiousjim, thanks. I'm always looking for something different. Mediterranean sounds good. I often go to the Absolute Sound music reviews. That's where I found out about Lizz Wright's new recording "Holding Space." You can only stream it, though. I have been listening to a Keith Jarrett album with Charlie Haden. Just the two of them. They do standards. It's very mellow, if you're in that kind of mood. |
stuartk, let me elaborate just a bit on the feminine angle. On Melissa Aldana's last album "12 Stars," the Chilean sax player has a song she wrote called "Emilia." Aldana is 36, a woman of childbearing age. When she played the song, she explained that "Emilia" was to the child she had never had. Not a subject a man would write a song about. I find the melody haunting and played in a way that I could not imagine a man playing. She rarely blasts the sax, and when she does it is not nearly as strong as Trane or any other male sax player I've heard. Her notes are gentle and wavering, and I find them to be haunting. There is an innate difference between her jazz and male jazz. This, I think, was not so true in the past. I would not have said that Carla Bley's sound was obviously feminine. Women in all the arts, however, are beginning to express a sentiment that they would not have in the past, because they wanted to be accepted in the man's world of jazz. Singers, aside, of course. We have always wanted our female singers to sound feminine and express the entire panoply of the feminine experience. Even in a deeply religious part of 1968 Iran. Why do I care? Because like curiousjim, I am curious about what is happening now. I like new things and experiences. And we live in an extremely important time when women are expressing their entire selves and men, as usual, are trying to slap them back. We see this in many, many goverrnments around the world, often expressed with the backing of religion. |
“Swagger” IN MUSIC is just another way of saying that the music “swings”, “rolls”, or, “has good pocket”. It is a feeling of great rhythmic integrity in the service of that particular music’s style. All are terms that are applicable to music of any genre including Classical. Yes, Classical music can swing…..in its own way. I don’t believe that the presence of swagger in music is dependent on the gender of the artist. Some might argue that there is some unique quality to the MUSICAL “swagger” of a female musician as compared to a male musician. I don’t buy it. Perhaps in their respective bodily “attitude” there is, but there are so many examples of artists of one gender whose work possess qualities that some might attribute to the other gender that makes the notion moot. Has there been a more “feminine” (in the stereotypical sense) Jazz pianist than Bill Evans? Or, conversely, a more “masculine” (in the stereotypical sense) Jazz pianist than, say, Hiromi? I think there is a preoccupation with “classification” or categorization of traits of performers. Not necessarily a bad thing, but the problem is that it is often done at the expense of a deeper analysis/understanding of fundamental musical attributes which are universal and cross gender barriers. @audio-b-dog , I appreciate your passion for music, but I must say and with all due respect that I don’t agree with some of what you write about it. Moreover, it seems you contradict yourself at times: **** I don’t think their art/music has to do with their personalities. **** **** Wynton Marsalis said that jazz was about the musician showing their "personality." **** Which is it? Herbie Hancock eschewed on this thread?! Hardly. **** Although some jazz players, most of whom I think would be eschewed in this thread, like Herbie Hancock **** On the subject of “soul” in music: **** John Klemmer who was influenced by Trane was just copying the man, but had no soul.**** There is hardly a tenor player active from the late ‘50’s and beyond who was not influenced by Coltrane. But to say that John Klemmer “was just copying” Trane and “had no soul” is a pretty bold and, frankly, unfair statement. I am not particularly fond of Klemmer’s music, but I simply can’t agree with that. Moreover, to suggest that the perceived absence of “soul” is why his music is considered “commercial” is mystifying to me. “Commercial” music can indeed be very soulful. From my perspective the above is why fixation on categorization of music in terms of strict genre (and gender) definitions and personal ideas of what constitutes soulfulness (and other attributes) can be a dangerous thing. Dangerous in the sense that it locks the listener into very narrow notions about the intrinsic value of the art. Never a good thing. **** I think we should separate music with a spiritual impulse from "chamber" music. To me, some jazz resembles chamber music in that it does not have that spiritual component informing its musical gestures. **** Huh?! Are you suggesting that chamber music, as a whole, does not have a “spiritual component”? If you haven’t yet, please familiarize yourself with Beethoven’s string quartets. Some of the most gloriously soulful and spiritual (chamber) music ever composed. That is, unless one has the mistaken view that to be “soulful” music has to be imbued with obvious references to the blues. —————————- What is a “gesture” in music? It is helpful to think of music, whether a Classical chamber work, or a Jazz performance as story telling with music. Jazz musicians often judge an improvised solo in terms of whether the musician is “telling a story” and not simply playing “licks” that while potentially “impressive” don’t add up to much as far as having musical coherence and a certain logic from beginning to end. Just like a good spoken word story teller tells a story. In music, a gesture is a motif or musical statement that while discreet is a logical piece of the whole. I wish I could claim to have written the following definition of “musical gesture”, but I saved it a while back after coming across it in a periodical: ++++ Gesture is often more or less synonymous with motive, meaning a germ-like idea or device that participates in musical rhetoric. But the word gesture draws a specific and obvious association with movement: a musical gesture is something whose communicative intent and power are analogous to those of a physical gesture, like a strong cadence or an especially compelling rhythmic figure. Consider the well-known opening of Mozart’s Symphony No. 40: A and b are closely related but opposing gestures; a unfolds and extends the arm, so to speak, while b draws it back in. Really this sense of gesture is entirely metaphorical, but it points to a kinesthetic conception and perception of sound that can be very useful in crafting compelling music, and in analyzing the impact of musical rhetoric on the listener. +++ Audio example of above: https://youtu.be/0sGqkMU-mGQ?si=_PGzvo3w6tL7oCJ Another example which is closer to home for this thread, the ground breaking “Giant Steps” by Coltrane. The first five notes of the tune is a “musical gesture”, followed by a seven note gesture which can be considered, as in the Mozart example, an opposing gesture. https://youtu.be/KwIC6B_dvW4?si=49WEFsDNaCA3NMUt Anyway, apology for the length of this post. I’m glad to see spirited discussion of music. There will always be disagreement at least to some extent. This is the result of how music (art) can move us all in different and personal ways. Disagreement should not be taken personally or as an affront, but as a way to grow as listeners by considering different perspectives. A music lover loves music much more than being a music lover. |
Randy Weston - African Rhythm Orchestra Live at The Montreux Jazz Festival (1985) - African Cookbook Some Sunday morning, listening music. |
Randy Weston • African Cookbook - Full Album ℗ 1972 Atlantic Records |
Another Jam Randy Weston - African Sunrise - African Rhythm Orchestra Live at The Montreux Jazz Festival (1985) With a kind of Fania All Star Vibe I really like.
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@tyray - Very nice finds, thanks! Look how much fun they are having. Hale Smith, with the cigar in his mouth....Love the groove on the live African Cookbook @ Montreux. |
@viridian, I was simply blown away by this album even though it was only a partial few of the cuts I could find and listen to. I’m thinking this album Duke Lumumba - Jungle Funk was recorded in 1968 maybe? If so, I think it was years ahead of its time. The musicianship is astounding, even though I had to come back to it and listen again. I was also impressed with producer – Phil Wright in the high quality of recording. This album’s got a Hugh Masekela/Crusaders type vibe going on. This is a well hidden jewel that needed to be put out there. This is a record I’d go out and buy. Much respect to and for the artist Duke Lumumba to title this (jazz) album ’Jungle Funk’ in 1968-69 ish. @viridian, talk about off the beaten path, what else you got? |
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frogman, thank you for the long post responding to my various posts. You have more of an understanding of the structure of music and a vocabulary to discuss it than I ever will. I think that also helps with an appreciation of music, but I’ve loved music from an ignorant standpoint for as long as I can remember. I’m not saying that as a dig. I’m just saying that most people who love music do not have your knowledge about how it works. I’d like to respond to the points you bring up about my posts, but first I’d like to tell you how I view music’s value to humanity. I think the arts, including music, defined Homos sapiens. The previous species of Homos (erectus, etc.) did not seem to make art. (I’ll leave Neanderthals out of the discussion.) I imagine early humans used music as a way to express their awe at belonging to the universe. And this I call spirituality. And this spirituality I hear in Coltrane’s music in spades. Now why do I get into this whole subject of women? It is my belief that up until about seven or eight thousand years ago women had an equal (or greater place) in terms of creating art. About the time the Greeks began philosophizing and the Hebrews began writing the Torah, women were cut out of philosophizing and art making. And it’s not until my generation that they have begun to claw back an equal place. Do women have a different sense of artistic expression? As a trained poet who has watched women change poetry in my lifetime, and change visual arts, I believe I have also watched them change music. And this is too long a discussion for here, because I’d have to go through numerous examples of where I’ve witnessed this. Like everything else, I think music has been a boys’ club. What has been lost in music? Hopefully we’ll find out. I think of it as the Feminine Creative Spirit. And that’s too huge a topic to get into here, but I think it goes beyond the arts. On the question of feminine versus masculine swagger, please listen to this cut from Melissa Aldana and tell me whether or not you hear a feminine approach. To my ear it is very clear, but perhaps I’m just hearing what I want to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqVOMc3_eDE On the question of "chamber" music, I think I haven’t been able to express myself because of my poor vocabulary about music. I am talking about music written for the chambers of lords and ladies of the court. Music written to please the court and to be pleasant to the ear. Although the lower classes and uneducated people did go to Shakespeare plays (which speaks highly of the poet), I don’t think they listened to what is referred to as "classical" music. I put that in quotes because classical is also a period of music following baroque. The composers of the classical period had long bored me especially in comparison to the Romantics and beyond. Now that I have become an old man, I appreciate Papa Haydn and Mozart more. I have always loved Bach. In a sense, I can compare the Romantics with jazz. Here’s where I’m talking about in my poem to John Coltrane "music wasn’t doled The cloistered walls I refer to are the walls of nobility’s castles and the church. Although, I must admit that I love the masses of Bach, Mozart, and many others. I think these composers are able to go beyond the liturgical to a deep spiritual well from which music comes. And from which jazz comes thanks to mostly musically uneducated folks who were touched as I say in my Coltrane poem: "& think that grace lands anyplace In other words, a snowflake promiscuously kissedd Louis Armstrong’s face. Since music comes from the human soul, he didn’t need a formal education. And I'm sure you know I can't leave out Mozart when I talk about the snowflake's blessing. He was writing symphonies in his early teens. I appreciate your elaboration of the meaning of "gesture" in music. I understand it far better now. I had to smile because Simon Rattle was conducting your example of Mozart’s 4oth. I got to go backstage and meet him once and he had a big thick notebook with jokes about violists. Of all the things I didn’t think I’d see when I went to meet Sir Simon Rattle. I hope I was a bit more clear in this overly long post. I don’t think you and I would disagree about much in regards to what is good music. I think our disagreement is more in terms of talking about music, and I think this is mostly my fault. I have written about many things before, but not music.
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frogman, BTW, I have a number of Beethoven's string quartets on vinyl. His last ones sound as though they were written in the 20th century. I have no idea how he was able to make those musical leaps. I heard one of his early piano sonatas played live (first, second, or third?). You would understand how to describe the leaps he took from one musical gesture to the other, but I turned to the guy sitting next to me and said, "That sounded like jazz." |
I was meaning to listen to Melissa Aldana more closely, so Audio-B-Dogs reference to her over the last few pages, told me now was the time. I only have had time to listen to 3 recordings a couple of times. My initial and final oversimplicated observation is she sounds like Wayne Shorter in the way she writes and in the way she plays, with a voice of her own mixed in. This in itself is not a bad thing. I will be paying attention to future records. I will say I hear no masculine or feminine sounds if I am listening to a recording. Just good music and playing. Now, if I am looking at her I can hear more feminine sounds. Call it what you want. I find it interesting that Audio- B-dog, said he loves her music after seeing her live, and then shows us a live recording where he says she has a feminine sound. Maybe, I'm not the only one effected by my eyes. I struggle with people pushing a subgroup forward on age, sex, color, or any other reason short of ability. I could name 10-20 young musicians, over the years, who are playing all types of music, with no voice yet, but are lifted up because they are young, when there are 100's of older great musicians who have never gotten their due, and can't put food on the table. Then once the youngster, gets older, starts actually playing great, with his own voice, people no longer care because they are older. Drives me a little nuts. You don't hear as much about Joey Alexander now that he has developed his own voice in early twenties, except from Jazz lovers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MUFhBaLm4I My brother is always pushing women to the front in sports, music, and other endeavors. I think they have to stand on their own excellence, not some manufacturerd push because they are women, and they absolutely can stand on there own talents, and I would hope that their femininity would be part of their sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42X2rb60_Mk I won't even have to mention all the BS that people have had to put up with due to skin color in music, as full books have been written on that. |