When Ravel's Bolero opened in Paris, it almost caused a riot. I guess folks took their music more seriously back then. One woman shouted "this music was written by a madman". Ravel who was present, said to his friend, "she's right!!, There is no music in this music". So much, for the people who should know. If it weren't for Bolero the guy would probably be unknown today. Similar situation with "1812". They are so arrogant. But, we unwashed masses, always set things right. Maybe this is Mo' Better Magical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsSALaDJuN4Cheers |
Rok, I don't know where you get your facts. The premier of Bolero was a huge success. If by "riot" you mean the cheering of the crowd then you're right; if you mean that the "riot" was a sign of disapproval you are incorrect. I also don't understand on what you base comments such as: ****If it weren't for Bolero the guy would probably be unknown today**** That comment could not be further from the truth. "Bolero", while popular is considered one of Ravel's least important works. Are you familiar with his orchestration of "Pictures At An Exibition", "Daphnis et Chloe", "Concerto In G" and many others which are considered some of the greatest orchestral music ever written? Look, you probably feel that I am picking on you. That is not my intention, but you are making some comments which are only unsubstantiated but more than a little silly. Tchaikovsky would be unknown if it weren't for the 1812 Overture?!? You must be joking. Re the latest Bolero clip: Sorry, but no cigar. Why the insistence on choreographed versions of the piece? First of all, Bolero was not composed as accompaniment to choreography. When a piece of music is choreographed there will almost always be compromises made in the performance of the music; usually in the areas of tempo and dynamics in oder to suit the choreographer's vision. In this case the piece starts with way too much energy; especially the snare which should be much more subdued. Starting the piece with so much energy means that the dynamic contrast between the beginning and the end (which is what the piece is all about) will be compressed. The solos with the exception of the opening flute solo are not so great with some funky intonation and hesitation in spots. Here's a great Bolero (btw, notice how Muti actually stops conducting in some spots; a great conductor can do that): https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-7ZBzIXoJDM |
****Rok, let me tell you a tru story about slaves here and their drums. At first the boss man didn't mind, and the drums had catchy rhythms, but when somebody told him, "Hey boss man, did you know they could talk with them drums"? That changed things; from that time on, the drum was outlawed. The very next night, "I thought I told yall to stop beatn them damn drums"! How can you have African music without a drum?**** O-10, I am sure that you have heard the term Santeria. Santeria is the religion that African slaves in Caribbean countries "synthesized" by giving their African gods Roman Catholic names in order to bypass the outlawing of their religion by their masters. "How can you have African music without a drum"......How can you have your religion without your Gods? While it would be ideal to understand the African influence on jazz from the standpoint of musical analysis (which makes it clear and obvious) looking at this parallel might make it easier to understand the answer to your question; "the math". In answer to your specific question "How can you have African music without a drum"? Easily, the drum is the vehicle, the means to an end; it plays rhythms......so does any other instrument including the human voice. THAT is how the African influence on jazz can be heard: the "blue" notes found in their native music and most importantly the "swing" feeling, the swagger and looseness; these are such a big part of the feeling of jazz as opposed to the more rigid or "square" feeling which is typical of the music of the European tradition. Combine that swagger, "blue" notes with European melody and harmony and you get........jazz. This does not take anything away from the fact that jazz is a uniquely American art form; it IS America's most important art from. However, just as we like to say that America is a "melting pot" of cultures, why should it be any different re it's music. I think that the issue of musical INFLUENCE is something that deserves much more understanding, not just as concerns African music and Jazz, but as concerns jazz in general; and, would be extremely informative as we look at various individual jazz artists. It lets the entire lineage make more sense. We recently revisited the subject of Coltrane (it never goes away; nor should it). I can't think of a better example of "influence" than this. Coltrane on alto saxophone sounding amazingly like Bird himself. When one listens to late Coltrane the Bird influence is much much harder to discern; he had taken that influence, fused it with his own vision and had taken off. However, it takes more than the ability to simply recognize an alto compared to a tenor in order to hear the Bird influence when listening to later Trane. https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MGnY-axUH0U |
Frogman, I was just joking about the drum, but seriously, how long did it take for African slaves to cease their "Africanity" (new word) and simply become their own people. Even "genetically", some African Americans are more European than African. Remember, one drop of African blood constitutes being an African American; some African Americans have blue eyes and straight hair, they can pass for white. There is nothing that can be traced back to present day African Americans, and that is what makes "Bird" so unique, when you listen to "Bird" as intently as I do, a whole new music was born, I call it "Bird Bop".
Now when you use the word INFLUENCE, almost nothing can be invalidated; however, I can separate Bird from Trane, when Trane is blowing; there was more of Bird in early Trane, but before he died, there was pure "Trane", without any Bird.
Enjoy the music.
|
To say Ravel would be unknown save for "Bolero",disqualifies
whoever said it comments from ANY serious consideration whatsoever on the subject of classical music. |
The Frogman:
Bolero:
Once again you miss the point. I thought it was composed as a Ballet? That being true, what's wrong with there being dancing? And if you didn't like the choreography, well, what can one say?
Ravel: Of course he wrote other pieces of music. They appear as FILLER, on every copy of BOLERO I own. And if you don't understand how ONE piece can make a career, well you have not been paying attention to the music business.
Don't put words in my posts. I did not say Tchaikovsky would be unknown without '1812'. I said he had a similar attitude towards 1812, as Ravel had towards Bolero. Even Wiki says Ravel 'resented' the success of Bolero.
It's a common theme in music. Artist writes what he considers junk or throwaway music. But saves his best efforts for his 'serious' works. The public loves the junk music. Makes the artist rich and famous. Public ignores all his 'serious' stuff. Artist becomes bitter. Happens quite often. The message: The masses can make or break.
Paris: I read that report in one of the British Magazines that did a spread on either Bolero or Ravel. I am almost sure of that. Can't remember which one. I have tooo many to try and find it. I stand by the qoute. I remember it well.
If it is not true, and wiki and a few more sites report similar accounts, then it proves what I said about believing everything you read from people who are supposed to know.
Cheers |
****That comment could not be further from the truth. "Bolero", while popular is considered one of Ravel's least important works.*******
The masses beg to disagree. You use that word 'considered' a lot. Considered by whom? Why do their considerations trump the considerations of the public. Unless of course, Ravel wrote his music for the professors at music school.
***Are you familiar with his orchestration of "Pictures At An Exibition",****
Pictures!! One of my favorites. Orchestrating other folks compositions, is not the same as writing your own. I have made my point, so I will concede he did do other things. Like a lot of one hit wonders.
Cheers |
Frogman, we've been into the evolution of jazz in relation to Africa, from slavery to the present; I wonder how it would go if we went in reverse; I mean what music in Africa that has been influenced by jazz from here.
Acman could lead this parade, I believe he has been into African oriented jazz from Africa.
Enjoy the music.
|
My LAST word on Jazz and influences and Africa.
If we go to certain areas of this country which include, Eastern TN, Western NC, West VA, and Northern GA & AL, we will see and hear people playing their local music. You may ask, where did this music come from? I would answer by putting us all on a plane, and flying to Ireland and Scotland. There, we will see, and hear where it came from. Notes be damned. Nothing to figure out. Just look and listen.
Africa and Jazz: I want you to tell me, where would we fly to in Africa, to see and hear / see the orgins, linkage or seeds of Jazz.
Since notes are physics, no one music type or genre can 'claim' them. I want to go to Africa and hear Jelly Roll and Pops. Where do we go?
Some of you seem to think slaves came ovcer here on work visas. green cards. With carry-on baggage. To you I say, take a look at a diagram of a slave ship. The drum thing in the Us is all myth. It was used to 'explain' why Africans play drums and Blacks in the US don't. Answer, the drum is a poor man's instrument. We had access to trumpets and other western instruments.
In the Book, The Diary of Mary Chesnut, she recounts the scene the day they fired on Fort Sumter in Charleston, SC. She said slaves were running all over the place, with GUNS. Ready to fight them Yankees. If they were allowed guns, surely drums were not seen as a threat. Read the story of Nat Turner. He didn't need no stinking drums! :)
And, where did these drums come from? And what is the distance a drum can be heard? The whole things seems silly to me. Reading more US / World history and alot less music theory, will answer all questions.
Cheers |
You crack me up, Rok. There is so much incongruity and contradiction in many of your views that I sometimes wonder if it's all a joke. Here we have a person who is staunchly "conservative" with his opinions on jazz, but is eager to credit "the masses" for knowing what excels and what does not.
****Once again you miss the point. I thought it was composed as a Ballet?****
Really? Given the above, who do you think is really missing the point. The person who makes clear and factual commentary about the piece, or the person who doesn't even know that the piece was not a ballet, nor can notice all of the mentioned problems with a performance of it. You cut yourself way too much slack.
****Ravel: Of course he wrote other pieces of music. They appear as FILLER, on every copy of BOLERO I own. And if you don't understand how ONE piece can make a career, well you have not been paying attention to the music business.****
I don't know what to say. However, I will say that I am still waiting for a cogent explanation about how the masses are who decide what is good when it is the masses who deem the likes of Kenny G, Madonna, etc. as worthy of their support.
****Public ignores all his 'serious' stuff****
You really do to get out more often.
****Paris: I read that report in one of the British Magazines that did a spread on either Bolero or Ravel. I am almost sure of that. Can't remember which one. I have tooo many to try and find it. I stand by the qoute. I remember it well.****
I believe you have the premiers of Bolero and Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" mixed up. It was the notorious premier of "Rite" that caused the well documented "riot", not Bolero. Oh, that's right...it's another case of "don't bother me with the facts, I will just create my own private reality".
****Pictures!! One of my favorites. Orchestrating other folks compositions, is not the same as writing your own. I have made my point, so I will concede he did do other things. Like a lot of one hit wonders.****
It really must be a joke. "one hit wonder"? Incredible!
BTW, Did you listen to the Muti Bolero? How about some commentary
about that performance? |
Re the Africa thing and your last post. Please reread what has been said about this. You have blinders on because the idea that your long-held views could be off base is apparently difficult to digest. No one (O-10) said anything about drums in the US; rather, the Caribbean. You obviously did not read my explanation on "influence" vs creation, nor the comment about the instruments being simply a means to an end. |
Frogman, why do you waste your time and effort to even bother with such a complete fool ? |
***I don't know what to say. However, I will say that I am still waiting for a cogent explanation about how the masses are who decide what is good when it is the masses who deem the likes of Kenny G, Madonna, etc. as worthy of their support.*****
There you go again. I did not say what the masses decided what was good in an absolute sense.. And your example proves my point. You said Bolero was his least important work. I did not say it wasn't, I said the masses decided it was his best work, by their criteria. Stay focused. I say 'exactly' what I mean to say. No more, no less. |
Schubert, the title of this thread on the music forum is "Jazz For Aficionados". I'm still looking for your posts where you submitted music, could you direct me?
|
****Really? Given the above, who do you think is really missing the point. The person who makes clear and factual commentary about the piece, or the person who doesn't even know that the piece was not a ballet,***** From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bol%C3%A9roBoléro is a one-movement orchestral piece by Maurice Ravel (1875–1937). Originally composed as a BALLET commissioned by Russian actress and dancer Ida Rubinstein, the piece, which premiered in 1928, is Ravel's most famous musical composition. The people rest. Cheers |
09-07-14 from O-10: He is talking about drums in the US. You said he was not.
cheers |
****It was the notorious premier of "Rite" that caused the well documented "riot", not Bolero.*****
Well I can certainly understand a riot over Stravinsky's music. Maybe the Bolero thingy was a joyful ruckus. The verbal exchange stands.
Nice try.
Cheers
|
*****BTW, Did you listen to the Muti Bolero? How about some commentary about that performance?*****
The link does not work. Has something to do with /#/ in the link.
But I assume it's Bolero played by a top tier orchestra under the baton of a top tier conductor. It so, I know what to expect. Just about what I hear when I play:
Berlin & NYP / Boulez, Berlin / Karajan, Orchestre de Paris / Barenboim, LSO / Monteux, and Boston / Munch. I would expect it to be just about the same.
Cheers |
The Frogman:
A little late, I should have asked before I posted. Do you mind if I bother you with the Facts? :)
Cheers |
Schubert, good question. Perhaps because I keep hoping. Hoping that someone who clearly has passion for music can change a skewed perspective.
Regards. |
Rok, you didn't comment on the dance links: 09-07-14 : I consider the last paragraph on that post an "unbelievable fact".
|
O-10, I am packing my computer for a move. I should have internet Friday at the new place. Latter! |
Rok, well, I am duly busted on that Bolero factoid. Total brain fart and I hang my head in shame for my memory lapse. Bolero, nonetheless! a piece that have played more times than I care to remember. I could go on about the reasons related to its history why I made that error, but I will spare you the agony. If you care, I will gladly torture with those facts. Hey, nobody is perfect (close) and your facts in this department are so often wrong that that I confess it was easy to assume that you were wrong again :-). Obviously, I stand by all my other comments. Here's the Muti link again: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-7ZBzIXoJDMI am going to give you a little insight into what makes for good orchestral ensemble playing and is what of the things that separates the great orchestras (Wiener) from the merely good (Proms). Listen to the entrance of the 2nd flute at the end of the flute solo; at 1:12 on the Muti. Believe it or not that is one of the hardest things in all of Bolero. The 2nd flute has to come in cold and in perfect rhythmic unison with the snare drum and in the low register of the instrument; very very difficult! The Wiener 2nd flute comes in decisively and in perfect rhythm. On the Plisetskaia recording (and most others) the 2nd flute falters a bit and sounds insecure and uncorfortale for at least several beats. Check it out; I promise your head won't explode :-) |
O-10:
The dancers: Awesome energy. The problem I have with this type dancing is that I am not sure the music and the dancing is connected in any way. The clip with the drummers and girls dancing, it seems as if she or even the drummers could have done something entirely different, and it would not have made any difference. It could be that I just couldn't hear the connection. I do admit, that when it comes to dancing, to having a bias against all things African. Real or imitation.
Cheers |
A perfect Bolero. I got the flute thingy. HOWEVER, music is not about perfection. It's about enjoyment. Muti himself looked as if he had overdosed on something. And at 8:00, the shot is of Muti, but in the background you can see a person fighting to stay awake.
The Terra cotta soldiers, eeerrr I mean the audience, was typical German. Everyone sitting at the position of attention. As were the players. A great CD of Bolero.
For live performances, give me the Proms any day. Informal, youth oriented and fun based. It's like a Rock Fest for Classical music. I will take a less than perfect Bolero, with 9 hot spainish babes dancing, anytime.
I think the Trombone 'blew' his opening note on one of my Boleros. But who noticed? That Bolero was sensual.
For CD playing, I take the Germans. For seeing and hearing I take the Proms. Imperfections be damned.
/#/ this appears in the link that you sent. I have to delete #/ and then it works, with just the single / otherwise it just goes to the Youtube home page.
Cheers |
By Jove, I think, he thought, he was perfect!
If consider this being 'busted', then we can say you have a rap sheet as long as your arm!!
Cheers |
There's a certain kind of person who cannot be elevated. They can only drag you down to their level. |
You know Ohnwy61, I was having (and have previously had) that very same thought. Personal food for thought. |
The Frogman:
Well we can simplify this. Lets just not talk to each other. Then you will not be in danger or being brought down to my level. And you won't have to wonder why you talk to me.Then you, and all your 'supporters', can rest easy. You ignore my posts and I will ignore yours. I will address anything I have to say to O-10. And with just two, we might as well go to emails.
See how easy that was?
Cheers |
I'm sure Bolero could be programmed perfectly. Where's Mr. Synergy Larry Fast when you need him? He's just the guy for the task. |
Rok, I know exactly why I talk to you and I have made it perfectly clear; no need to wonder here. Sorry you don't appreciate my motivation. You can proceed as you please and ignore whatever you wish. I won't actively ignore anything posted here including your posts as long as I continue to participate or unless I want to ignore it; seems too childish to me and frankly I am not personally invested in any of this and neither should you be. Why you find anything I may have said more offensive than some of you have said is just one the mysteries of our interaction. Alas.
Cheers
BTW, try that Clave exercise. Takes a little practice, but really helps understand rhythm. |
Frogman, in theology there is a term"invincible ignorance" ,where it is considered a tad sinful to waste your efforts on those who have made it clear there is no way
short of divine interventation. |
Rok, I got religion! Unfortunately, you have to dance, and I've never been much of a stepper, but I'm catching on. They're taking 45 RPM records, and playing them at 33, just for me; in a year or two I'll be up to speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o86Y1xgbKmQ[\url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNEVAzaX9sThis is the lousiest sound quality I've ever heard, but the music is poppin. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPG7KGa9fsg>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNEVAzaX9s>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o86Y1xgbKmQ[\url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNEVAzaX9s This is the lousiest sound quality I've ever heard, but the music is poppin. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPG7KGa9fsg Enjoy the music. |
O-10:
Those Santeria dancers have nothing on the folks at my Baptist Church. :)
Mongo: The most coherent of all Latin percussionist, to my ear. Nice little Watermelon Man thingy.
Recently Acquired:
Count Basie - THE COMPLETE DECCA RECORDINGS
THE VERY BEST OF YOUNG-HOLT UNLIMITED
report later
Cheers |
|
|
O-10:
The singer in Mali. Nice tune and dancing. Sounded repetitious, mainly due to the fact that it was. Seems to be the norm in Third World countries. I wonder why that is? I was half-way thru it before I realized this is a music Video and not some NAT-GEO amateur type thingy. The dancing was just a little too Choreographed. They were really into it!
Some of the 'comments' said she was the best singer in Mali. Makes me apprecitrate even more, the abundance of talent in this country.
Cheers |
O-10:
The Herbie mann clip was very nice. I had not heard of that album before. I see where Mann has Two Eight Albums Sets on Amazon. Probably the best way to get his stuff. Most of what I have is on LP. Only one CD.
The guy playing the string instrument? Not my cup of tea.
Miles' Mama was a voodoo priestess? No wonder the boy went Sinbad on us.
Cheers |
No Rok, his aunt, not his mama; Miles don't play that; you'll have them coming back after me. I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and there him and his aunt Corrine will be standing in the middle of the room looking mean, and bad. (glad we got that straightened out)
I'll get back to you on the Herby Mann CD's
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, these CD's are from "Collectables", they have 2 LP's on 1- CD. The one you want is col-cd-6830. WWW. oldies. com is the address.
Enjoy the music.
|
O-10:
Well, the worst Miles and Aunt Corrine could do, would be to strap you down, and clamp a pair of headphones on you, and play 'Bitches Brew' on endless repeat. Loud!! But, that would be cruel and unusual.
Cheers |
O-10:
Today's Listen:
Ella Fitzgerald -- SINGS THE DUKE ELLINGTON SONGBOOK
2 CD SET. CD1 is her singing with small group backing. CD2 is her with the Ellington Band. The small group was more to my liking, but both are flawless.
This woman has COMPLETE control of her voice. Every time she goes down into the lower register I brace for a Billie Holiday type moment. No cracking here, she gets down there with authority. No coming down to it, or up to it, she just nails it!
It's amazing how in the middle of a well known Ellington tune she will just change it, as if she is saying, "well Duke, you could have done this" and just change the pace and rhythm of the song. It's amazing.
On the number "Rockin' in Rhythm" with the Ellington band, she does not sing, she plays Sax. :) Amazing!
Everyone, who is anyone, is on board. Including:
Ben Webster, Paul Gonsalves, Snuff Smith, Johnny Hodges, Cat Anderson, Clark terry, Dizzy, Duke, Strayhorn, Oscar Peterson, Barney kessel, Ray brown and Sam Woodyard.
You gotta have it. Next up, is "Ella and Basie". Got them both today.
The entire CD is on youtube. Check it out
Cheers |
O-10:
I found the Herbie Mann CD. Thanks for the site.
Cheers |
|
Acman3:
I see that tune in a different light, now that we have O-10's information. Our OP is, and has always been, a wealth of interesting information.
Cheers |
Acman, although I wanted you to lead the parade this time, I know how stressful even a big move up can be to an audiophile, so I don't know if you can honor my request, but here's how it would have went; I believe you collect jazz from Africa, that would be in the category of new, or relatively unknown. Hugh Masekela and Miriam Makeba would be excluded in this category because they're so well known, and what we want are relatively unknown or new musicians.
Since you'll be leading the parade, other categories you like would be optional as well, but what I'm trying to do is keep us all in the same category, even if for a short while.
Rok, if you have any suggestions that will keep us in the same category for a short while, I would be glad to hear them.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I agree 100% on the Ella/Ellington thing. All of Ella's songbook recordings are fantastic. Which Ella and Basie album are you listening to? If it is On the Sunny Side of the Street, it is one of my very favorites. Another favorite of hers would be the 40th Birthday concert, from Rome. If you haven't heard that, you need to! |
Learsfool:
****Which Ella and Basie album are you listening to?*****
It's titled "Ella and Basie". All tunes arranged by Quincy Jones. I like it, but not as much as the Ellington Songbook. For one thing the last 6 tracks consist of two verions of "My Last Affair" and FOUR(4) tracks of the tune "Robbins Nest". That's silly.
The CD does include the song "On the Sunny Side of The Street". But I do not have the CD by that name.
But, she is impeccable as always. Even singing the same song four times in a row!!
I have several of her 'songbooks' and "A Perfect Match / Ella and Basie", and also the Birthday CD from Rome. As you said, it's awesome.
Cheers |
O-10: You know that when it comes to music I suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder. For instance this is my current favorite tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp74hbMy2MAI will try to contribute in any direction you guys want to go. I am not that much into the Third world stuff. I think because I am not aware of any track record of the artists. But as the man said, "I will endeavor to persevere". :) You Aficionados lead, I will follow. Cheers |
O-10:
How about exploring Jazz State by State. List the greats from each state, give a little overview, then the links to their bios.
I'll start with Mississippi and Texas. :) You can do MO, since you only have Miles. :(
Just a thought.
Cheers |
