Jazz for aficionados
Rok, you might as well have stated African influence does not exist because the although the music sounded African influenced, the name was wrong. Cuban street music is a combination of Spain and Africa. Spirituals, Blues, and Jazz are uniquely American, with no African influence I can detect. Enjoy the music. |
I just read the Wiki article on "Mozambique". It says this: "Although the rhythm shares many characteristics with Sub-Saharan African music traditions, it does not have anything to do with music from the African nation of Mozambique" It's funny how we sometimes see what we want to see. That comment clearly points out the African connection; but, it points out that, although implied by the name of that particular rhythm, it does not relate to the music of the country Mozambique specifically. |
Wiki is not the King James Version. Some people hear drums, they think 'Africa'. Tooooo many Tarzan movies!! ***It's funny how we sometimes see what we want to see. That comment clearly points out the African connection;**** "Many Characteristics" does not a 'connection' make. Besides, I heard the tune and thought 'Latin". Cheers |
Do we laugh, or cry?? What a load of crap!! http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/04/-sp-from-charred-death-to-deep-filthstep-the-1264-genres-that-make-modern-music Cheers |
#9 Clasiqueando Con Ruben Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_(music) This is SON music and the title is in honor of the pianist for the BVSC, Ruben Gonzalez. SON is also said to be of African orgin, although it only appeared at the turn of the last century. Where was it hiding? :) If it took that long to manifest itself, a body could be excused for thinking it was of Cuban orgin!! Son was looked down upon by the Cuban Elite i.e. Europeans. I guess they couldn't 'hear' it. Wiki says SON caused "considerable Anxiety" among the powers that be. I love it for that reason alone. And of course because of the BVSC. Wiki also says BVSC was not that well thought of by the Cubans. Read the article. It's a good read. To hear the tune, just go to O-10's post and click on the song title. It will move to the start of that tune. Cheers |
For those that are interested. http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/teachers/curriculum/m13/notes.php Also, Google, 'Indigenous African Music". After reading the article, and any of the several sites on the Google, then talk to me about Drums and music of African orgin in the Americas. These people did not progress beyond chanting. In that, they are without peer. The rest of it, is African words put to Western musical forms. Cheers |
Ran across this again. Had to listen and share one more time. Check out the conductor towards the end. The boy is into it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOFAtg9twM Cheers |
Rok, I can only assume that you were so excited to read something "supporting" your strange stance on "the African influence" that you neglected to read the entire article. From the very article that you linked: ****I have discussed western influences on African music; it will be impossible to close this discussion without highlighting that Africans have a profound influence on world music today. We can trace this influence to times before the popularization of Jazz as a true hybrid of African and Western musical idioms. Trade played a major role in exposing other nations to African music. Diaries of early explorers are full of accounts that at times exhibit their biases about a culture they viewed as primitive and inferior to their own. It is also important to note that some early writers, such as Mc Kinney and Anderson, who acknowledged that "Negroes [African Americans] brought into the country [America] their own flavor of rhythmic genius and harmonic love for color peculiar to their music." The African influence on Jazz, Reggae, Rhythm and Blues, Hip hop, Rap and other popular forms of music that exist in America, Asia, Europe and other continents cannot be discounted. Mc Kinney and Anderson acknowledge the African contributions to indigenous American art forms when they write, ''Africans contributed to the first popular form of amusement indigenous to the American scene was the minstrel show, a distinctly native combination of a sort folk vaudeville with topical songs of a Negroid character." It is within this context that Africa continues to play a major role in reshaping the world music. One of the major African music idioms that have influence world music is captured in Jazz. Mc Kinney and Anderson argue that Jazz is a kind of music fusing elements from such widely differing sources as European harmony, Euro-African melody, and African rhythm into a kind of improvisations style based on a fixed rhythmic foundation. Its beginnings can be traced to the Negro musicians in the French quarters of the city of New Orleans around 1890.**** |
Seems as if you have been exposed to 'feel good history'. Being in NY, that is not surprising. A few facts would be nice, rather than just what some guy wrote. Remember, EVERYONE, has an agenda. Esp the liberal left. And most of what is written about the arts, is written by them. They are determine to make Africa something, even if it is not. They don't respect the music or the people, so being accurate is not important to them. If all this stuff came from Africa, why is it not there now? Don't shortchange the people of the US and Cuba. Give them their due. THEY created this music. The only thing that originated in Africa were their ancestors. You need to get out more. :) Visit the United States. Start with the Mississippi river in St Louis, MO, then down to Memphis, the Delta, and Louisiana, and then over to Texas. Make sure you write down everytime you hear the word 'Africa'. One last thing. In many parts of the world, 'Afro' just means black. If black people play a certain music it's called AFRO-whatever. If the local whites had played the same music first, note for note, it would not be called Afro-anything. So much for orgins. Cheers |
So, what exactly are you saying? That the article that you referenced (link) is invalid as a whole since it too is simply "what some guy wrote"? If so, then why did you reference the article? Rok, the problem in trying to resolve this disagreement is that you are relying on, and disputing, only what is being said with words. You are not listening to what the music itself is saying; you are not letting your ears give you "the proof". You insist on equating "influence" with "creation"; they are two different but related things. I am going to be blunt and I mean no disrespect: it's amazing that someone who loves music so much can be so closed to understanding the building blocks of music; and how much there is to understand. The connection (the influence) between the different musics is there to be heard; it's loud and clear. THAT'S the proof. I'll give you a concrete example (you want proof?): The fifth track on the record that we are commenting on (and the first of "my three") "Fiesta De La Rumba" starts with a slow 3-2 Rumba Clave rhythm. I will get deeper into the importance of Clave rhythm in Cuban music in my comments about the three tracks, but for now "the proof" lies in the fact that the Clave rhythm originated in Sub-Saharan African music traditions and has the same role in that music as in Cuban music. This is well documented and not really up for debate and all one has to do is LISTEN; but, first one has to know what one is listening to. I suppose that this fact is simply a coincidence in your view? This is the reason that I have repeatedly encouraged you to learn more about this stuff. IMO, you are doing yourself a disservice by holding on to ideas that not only have no basis in fact, but are contrary to those of every authority on the subject. ****Don't shortchange the people of the US and Cuba**** Why are you so invested in shortchanging the people of Africa? |
****Spirituals, Blues, and Jazz are uniquely American, with no African influence I can detect.**** O-10, that comment is almost as surprising as Rok's. I think the operative part of the comment, and what keeps it from being inaccurate is "that I can detect". That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet. I think one has to be careful about making comments like that as if they are fact without first having a really thorough grasp of the literature on the subject and what those who have studied the music and its origins very thoroughly have to say on the matter. Of course blues, spirituals and jazz are uniquely American creations, but the African influence is very strong. Again, influence is not the same as creation. And btw, the cross-cultural influences in music are not unique to African culture; the same can be said of any culture that had any significant contact with another. All this becomes obvious if one understands what the components of music are on a deeper level. How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we? And that is only the tip of the iceberg. The potential in these discussions is great, but we are going to keep coming up against these obstacles and distractions if instead of keeping a more open mind to how much there is to learn there is commentary presented as fact when it isn't. The following link is highly recommended reading from an "authority" on the subject; and, before we are too quick to deem the article "feel good, politically correct nonsense" (or something like that) I encourage you to remember that practically every jazz player on the planet would agree with it. Cheers. http://www.jazzedmagazine.com/2893/articles/focus-session/the-african-origins-of-jazz/ |
Hello gentlemen - I like very much indeed the direction this thread has been going lately, despite my lack of contributions for a while now. I fully intend to go back over all these links and listen to all these clips when I get a chance. Just about all of them lately are things I am not very familiar with, and I am eager to hear and learn about about them. Frogman's latest post has some VERY important points, which have been big themes of mine on these forums. Most important is his: "That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet." The key word here is YET. Rok and O-10, you both love music so much, and love listening to it. It would be a very simple thing for you both to listen more ACTIVELY, as opposed to passively. These things really aren't that difficult to learn to hear - you just have to put in the effort to train yourself to do so. Doing so will increase your enjoyment of whatever you are listening to a thousand fold. You will begin hearing things you never heard before even in your very favorite music that you have heard a thousand times. You will hear connections between your favorite tunes/albums/artists/genres that you haven't heard before. You will understand the improvised musical "conversations" going on between these great jazz musicians so much more, and the delight you have in listening to them will increase beyond what you can currently imagine. This, to me, is the essence of jazz - these types of dialogues that are completely improvised on the spot, but yet are solidly based on these basic building blocks. All these great musicians know and understand them (as well as their histories and inter-relationships), and use them, much like a writer uses language. The more you speak this language yourself, the more subtleties you will hear in what they are saying that you never even realized existed before. |
**** How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we?****** Of course!! Everyone knows what a blue note is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_note next question. :) O-10: we better be careful. I think The Frogman is about to go professorial on us. Cheers |
Rok, there's enough stuff that left Africa permanently during the slave trade to fill a library and a museum. While researching Cuba, I came across a master voodoo drummer who lives in Haiti. He has a chart of types of "exclusively voodoo drumming"", and what country that type of drumming came from. As ancient as it is, to pass history down from one person to another without writing, this is still being used in regard to voodoo. While he has all of the rhythms, he pointed out that many types can no longer be found in Africa, but reside in various countries in the Caribbean, and Bahia, where many types of voodoo drumming can still be found that are no longer in Africa. My ears told me that a long time ago. People in Africa are trying to move forward, and survive economically, while those over here who are steeped in Voodoo (which goes by many names) are leaning on that ancient religion which originated in Africa. I'm not trying to diverge from the main subject, just pointing out something that's related. Enjoy the music. |
I'll go into my shallow awareness of Cuba before Castro while I'm waiting for your contributions. Since my awareness of Cuba was formed by movies and television, almost everybody in Cuba was white. Were there any Black members in Ricky Ricardo's band on "I Love Lucy"? I know everybody has seen the movie "The Godfather"; Meyer Lansky's hotel suite is still preserved. I didn't know Black people were prominent in Cuba, Until Fidel Castro came rolling into Havana with his Black Generals. He sent Batista packing, but not before Batista could fill his suitcases with 400 million dollars of Cuba's money. By the way, Batista was a light skinned Mulato, he would have been considered a Black man in the United States. I mention this because he pushed racist policies in Cuba. I'll tie all your contributions together when they come in. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: *****As ancient as it is, to pass history down from one person to another without writing, this is still being used in regard to voodoo.****** Remember that game we all played as children? One person would whisper a statement to one kid, who would then whisper the same thing to another kid, and so on..... then the last kid would say what was whispered to him. It was never the same. The important things are always written down for history and future generations. I think Voodoo is sort of like Jazz. They make it up as they go. I have never heard of Voodoo in Africa. I'm no expert, but since you mentioned it, Voodoo seems to be a Caribbean thingy. Except, for Marie Laveau, down there in Nawlins. :) Cheers |
My awareness of Cuba started with Castro in Harlem. Demonstrating that he was just another member of the proletariat. :) I was never into Lucy. Too silly for my taste. Batista was probably owned by the mob and other monied interest in the US. He pushed racist policies to get the almighty Yankee Dollar. Since the tourist he catered to, were 'used' to racist policies. My other introductions to Cuba were, Hemingway's book, The Old Man and The Sea. Required reading in school. Also, when I was into Chess, I studied the Chess matches of Jose Raul Capablanca, the great Cuban Chess Grandmaster. Didn't get into Cuban Music, until I was introduced to Dizzy's music. Cheers |
#4 -The Cuban Son. Rok already did the Wiki version, so I found this. http://www.justsalsa.com/salsa/music/son/ |
#2 Son Montuno http://lasalsaviveny.blogspot.com/2011/03/arsenio-rodriguez-father-of-son-montuno.html A little Son Montuno lesson. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CmbGh4efBw |
#3- Danzonete- cha- There is very little info on this term. There is a small reference in this Danzon post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzón http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/danzonete I would assume the Cha-Cha-Cha would be involved. Maybe a Cuban music expert can help???? |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXXmHbH3BLo Willie Dixon said, The Blues is The Truth. No one is more truthful than the Wolfman. West Point, Mississippi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0MIQHymToA Cheers |
#5 "La Fiesta De La Rumba" Slow tempo "Guanguanco".  Guaguanco is the most popular style of Cuban rumba.  It developed  among the different African ethnic groups, primarily from Central and West Africa, who were brought to Cuba as slaves.  This recording starts with a 3-2 rumba clave rhythmic pattern played on the claves.  This merits an explanation:  clave is the name of an important percussion instrument used in Cuban music; two thick rosewood sticks struck together.  Clave is also the name of the most important rhythmic pattern in Cuban music; usually (but not always) played on claves (the instrument).  The importance of clave rhythm in Cuban music cannot be overemphasized.  It is a type of repetitive rhythmic grid or framework around which all the other percussion instruments synchronize their individual parts.  There are different Clave rhythms, but this one, the 3-2 rumba Clave is one of the most common.  But, what is rumba Clave?  Do this simple exercise and this common rhythm will be instantly identifiable to anyone familiar with Latin music.  First do the exercise very very slowly by enunciating the beats and subdivisions, and then try doing the same thing by clapping your hands where there is an emphasis while enunciating the beats and subdivisions: Think four beats per measure of music: (1) (2) (3) (4).  Now, imagine that each one of those beats is divided into four subdivisions: (1)one, two, three, four (2)one, two, three, four (3)one, two, three, four (4)one, two, three, four Now, do the same thing, but this time each of the four subdivisions of each beat may or may not be emphasized: (1) ONE,  two,  three,  FOUR (2) one,    two,  three,  FOUR (3) one,    two, THREE, four (4) ONE,  two,   three,   four Remember, the digit is the one of the four beats in the measure and the spelled number is each of the subdivisions in each beat.  Listen to the clave (the instrument) in the song "La Fiesta De La Rumba" and focus on the rhythm that it plays; it is the very first thing that one hears on the clip.  This (Clave rhythm) is the heart of Cuban music, around which everything else revolves.  I made a comment in an earlier post that, in Cuban music, the dance is almost inextricable from the music.  There could not be a better example of this than in Guaguanco.  This is Guaguanco (the dance) along with the music.  As with almost all ethnic musics (African) the dance tells a story.  In this case it is suggestive and playful story of sexual conquest; or, more specifically it's attempt (the dude never gets the prize): https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=m-9JLuvoSPI |
#6 "Los Sitio Asere". Â Classic Cuban "son"; this one, while technically not a Guaguanco, speaks of it in it's lyrics. Â Son, the precursor of salsa, became popular in the late twenties and combines the more formal elements of Spanish (European) song ("cancion") structures with African percussion instruments and rhythms. Â Notable is the extensive use of the guitar. Â The use of brass instruments in this heavily orchestrated example of son came later, whereas early son did not use brass instruments to this extent; except perhaps a single solo trumpet as is heard on the "Buena Vista" recordings. Â Classic son uses a more traditional song writing style as opposed to the simpler call and response structure heard in the Guaguanco "La Fiesta De La Rumba". Â One of the most fascinating things about this style of music and it's rhythm is just how little is happening on the downbeats of the music (the 1,2,3,4). Â The percussion plays primarily on syncopated beats with the downbeats being largely implied. |
#7 "Pio Mentiroso". A "guaracha".  Guaracha is a style characterized by a typically faster tempo than most other Cuban music styles.  It gained popularity in Cuban theater productions and is notable for the "dialogue" between the vocal soloist and the chorus.  The themes of the songs are usually of a light and happy nature and it should be noted that in this "dialogue" the soloist typically improvises his lyrics. Counter to the guaracha's typically "happy" feeling, it is particularly  interesting to note the role that Cuban musical theater and the guaracha had in the emancipation of slaves in Cuba.  Both the songs and it's companion dance often made political commentary criticizing the establishment's attitude towards slavery. |
This makes me think i'm back down in the Delta, eerrrrr.. I mean, Uganda. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o87zVBl3KsI Cheers |
I guess this is the "jumping around" that O-10 referred to. Does this mean we are done with Cuban music? So, was there anything of interest in my posts, Rok? Learn anything? Disagree with anything? This is a crucial moment in these discussions, IMO. One can either jump ship or take things to another level and really make things insteresting and learn something; or, do the usual retreat to the comfort zone. |
*****So, was there anything of interest in my posts, Rok? Learn anything? Disagree with anything?***** It was all interesting and I really appreciate the time, effort, and thinking, it must have taken to write them. Since eventually a person has to believe some of what is written, I have learned, that as late as 1899, many / most?, blacks in Cuba could not speak Spanish. So, what language did they speak? I have learned that the importation of Africans into Cuba continued until the 1860s and slavery was not abolished until 1886. Importation ended in the US in 1808. Cuba is very small compared to the US. The few sugar cane plantations were owned by a few wealthy Europeans, mostly Spainards. I stress the word 'few'. The Africans worked in the cane fields, slept for a few hours, and then started it all again. In rural areas. Isolated. Esp the men. People in Cuba were legally divided into White, Black and mixed race. This meant greater isolation for people of pure African decent. Isolation means a culture can be sustained or created, with little chance of cross contaimination. Culture includes music. All this indicates that it is very likely that African influences in Cuban music were significant, almost to the point of Cuban music being African music, with Spainish influences.? This is true for all Spainish islands of the Caribbean and Brazil. More slaves were imported into these countris and for longer, than into the US. So if you can hear all this African stuff in Cuban music, I cannot prove otherwise. It seems reasonable. That this is also true in Black American music, I strongly disagree. Every relevant condition was different here. The last person from Africa entered this country in 1808. The ones already here? They all spoke English, however badly, and apparently they were all Baptists. :) And they were EVERYWHERE! You are a smart guy, examine the facts, and do the math. And don't forget the left-wing elites in the arts, have an agenda. Don't want to make this a slave thread, but it is central to the subject. One other thing. If a native in some isolated island blows through his hand carved flute, he will make a sound. My book tells me that a 'note', is a sound frequency of a certain duration. That note the native blew, could most likely be found within any of Beethoven's Symphonies. That sort of thing is Physics, not culture or influence. So now, should we consider all Cuban Music to be Spanish influenced African music?? :) I'm just saying. :) Cheers |
*****I guess this is the "jumping around" that O-10 referred to. Does this mean we are done with Cuban music?***** I "jump around" because, I am more MUSIC aficionado than JAZZ aficionado. I love it all. I submitted two youtubes of Bolero that were completely ignored. Both, pure magic!! Don't get me started on they way the Wolfman was dissed. You guys should remember what the Duke said. Cheers |
****Does this mean we are done with Cuban music?**** I just follow the rest of you. But our OP be Bossman. He loves Cuba. We are not done by a long shot. We have not gotten into Jazz and doo-wop yet. Can't wait to talk about my 'Los Zafiros' CDs. I read one bio of a Cuban guy that said he played, Jazz, Cuban Jazz, Latin Jazz and Afro-Cuban Jazz. That's what I call a target rich enviroment. We will be here until Christmas!! At least they didn't mention 'Free' Cuban Jazz. Cheers |
Right on Rok! I'm with you all the way; go with the flow, do what you feel, may the spirit guide you, and the force be with you. About my learning experiences; I've been to a university or two, at least I walked across the campuses (never got a pedigree) but I never learned as much in such a short time as I have from you guys quite recently. We'll go just like we've been going "quite recently", do what you feel, and I'll improvise. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, let me tell you a tru story about slaves here and their drums. At first the boss man didn't mind, and the drums had catchy rhythms, but when somebody told him, "Hey boss man, did you know they could talk with them drums"? That changed things; from that time on, the drum was outlawed. The very next night, "I thought I told yall to stop beatn them damn drums"! How can you have African music without a drum? Enjoy the music. |
****You are a smart guy, examine the facts, and do the math. And don't forget the left-wing elites in the arts, have an agenda.**** Well, this comment can be interpreted one of two ways; either as faint praise or as insulting. Don't misunderstand, I don't take offense and I am also confident that you mean well. But, the comment is too rich with stuff that goes to the crux of the matter to ignore. I'll explain: It could be interpreted as insulting because you assume that I have not done the math. Moreover, you suggest that I would let whatever agenda the "left-wing elites" might have for presenting the argument override MY ability to analyze the issue, primarily by way of what my ears tell me, and arrive at MY own conclusions; conclusions shared by the overwhelming majority of those who know what they are talking about. And btw, the "left-wing elite" argument is, with all due respect, a pretty lame and sophomoric one. What you fail to recognize is that the argument about the African influence on jazz was well-accepted analysis way before our society developed any interest in crediting people of color for anything. But enough of that. I have no issue with your disagreement on a personal level and my motivation is simply to try and help you see the facts; and, more importantly help you develop a way of looking at these issues that is relevant to the act of listening to music. I say relevant because listening and enjoying is one thing, but analyzing the music or it's history is another and I am afraid that your version of "the math" is way off base. Again, you are willing to concede the probability of the African connection in Cuba, not because you can HEAR the influence, but because your "math" makes sense. As I said before, don't worry about the math and let your ears tell you the truth. Remember the "cables" debate? You're simply not hearing it. A challenge: Did you read the link to the article about Gunther Schuller's explanation of the African connection in jazz? Now, rather than simply dismiss the plausibility of his premise, explain why what he poses is NOT plausible; why what he poses is incorrect. But not because "the math" doesn't add up in your view; rather, explain why the musical analysis that he presents is incorrect. I would be very curious. Re "Bolero": They were probably "ignored" for a couple of reasons. Probably because there are too many submissions at any one time to cover them all, and only a couple of contributors to this thread have more than a passing interest in that music. Now, MY honest reasons for not commenting on them (no intention to ignore): First, how many times will we comment on Bolero? Its been done several times before and as great a piece as it is (in its way) it's not exactly the most interesting piece of music in the rep; by a long shot. More importantly, your definition of "magical" is not the same as mine. Perhaps the visual element of the dance makes it magical for you, but for me those two performances of Bolero are not particularly good and I see no point in criticizing your submission when there are so many others to comment on. Bolero is an interesting piece because it's repetitiveness and "simplicity" lays bare the soloists and the ensemble, making playing that is less than first rate very obvious. If those performances were magical from the standpont of the orchestra's performance, what would one call another performance that has better flow, better ensemble playing, more expressive and (at the same time) more rhythmically accurate solos, and better sense of drama? MORE magical? Here's to encouraging you to dig a little deeper. Cheers. BTW, did you try the clave rhythm exercise? Or should I complain that it was completely ignored :-) |
Frogman, while there aren't many contributors to this thread, the quality of their contributions is higher than any other thread I've been on. I would like to know how many hits a day there are on this thread. Some people are like parasites, they take what they can get out of a forum, but never contribute anything. If that's the case we're making musical contributions for the many, and proof of that would lie in the number of hits compared to the number of contributions. We're all quite satisfied with your contributions and special expertise, as it has been stated. While I certainly have 0 intentions of going to music school, I'm thankful for what I learn from your contributions. Enjoy the music. |
Bolero: It was all said in jest. No one said Bolero was the most interesting piece of music. No one said these performances were the best ever. Is that the only piece of music you listen to, the most interesting? If you didn't like them, fine. I cannot imagine anyone not enjoying them. Esp the one at the Proms. The audience went wild, the conductor was really into it. The dancers were, wow! But, to each his own. The "complaining" comment was just messin' with you guys. But, if your response was all you have to say about the performances, you may have lost sight of the reason music exists. And a better performance would be, " Mo' better magical!" Cheers |
I can walk and chew gum at the same time, therefore, I can jump and not jump. If that makes no sense, don't worry about it. Frogman, when I see this, all the answers come to me. Billionaires who have all the wealth and power, enough power to make people in places all over this globe, jump when they say jump, can not experience the exuberance of these dancers. Although money and power gives them the ability to buy anything or anybody they want, they're bored because they can not feel anything, now their only pleasure comes from making as many people as possible, MISERABLE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZvmx--91G0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvbXLDcGe0k Enjoy the music. |
