Audiophile insanity over KOB, makes a statement in and of it self; this alone says it ain't quite up to what it's cracked up to be; think about all the killers in your collection, and then compare them to KOB, I rest my case.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
31,516 responses Add your response
The best jazz is a very rich art form; and, while obviously very different in nature than the great Classical music (and great non-music art forms) it is undoubtedly of the same stature as far as its overall artistic merit. That may seem like stating the obvious, but the point is that, just as the music itself is extremely nuanced, when it is at such a high level to begin with it deserves to be critiqued in a nuanced way. It's a matter of degree; KOB may not be the greatest jazz recording ever, but I suppose that if the "unwashed" are truly the final arbiters, then it probably deserves to be considered one of them. As far as I am concerned there is nothing like a long hot shower :-) |
Interesting article about the Saxophone is the October issue of BBC Music magazine. Celebrating the 200th birthday of Adolphe Sax, the inventor of the Saxophone. Slow acceptance into classical music, save the French Composers. Tells it's entire history, esp in Jazz. Ronald McNair, the Astronaut, took a sax on the last CHALLENGER Mission to be the first to record new music in space. A piece composed by Jean Jarre. Of course, CHALLENGER exploded. McNair was described as "a very accomplished saxophonist". A sad day. Cheers |
Since the "J" word is beginning to give me a headache and run my blood pressure up, I'll refrain from writing about it for awhile. Although I have an extensive collection of "J" music that I'll continue to hear daily, for my health, the word must be avoided. I think I'll get a little religion; Rok, here's the real deal; this is music from the holy land, not some Baptist church in Nawlins. This is music Christ and the Apostles were listening to, all the way live, not some Baptist music out of Nawlins or Mississippi, but this. The subject is the music, not the movie; the instruments chosen for this music were the same instruments they used in Christ's time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7-2ldzIbUQ "Susana Baca", have I been here before? My memory ain't what it used to be. This lady has such a fascinating voice and story, that I can stand to hear again. The last time I was here, I can't remember whether I went on a solo flight or took you guys along; this time we'll go together. Her voice has such a sweet haunting quality, I could listen to it all night; which I probably will tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXo4AfC8HFY Although I don't understand the language, my heart takes care of the translation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgJLLKzYFYA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGIZkjTDt4k Sometimes in music, it can sound even better when you don't understand the language; music is a language of it's own, and that's universal, the music can speak for the heart and soul in a way that words alone couldn't manage; when you toss in your imagination, Susana's songs take on a magical quality. Here is one bad version of "Harlem Nocturne", that was featured in a movie about one bad ride. "Christine" was bad to the bone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuvGP2_RQ50 Enjoy the music. |
Visited my Doctor today. The Phlebotomist is a great Jazz fan. She was playing Nancy Wilson and Cannonball on her BOSE table CD Player. She is also from ST Louis. I don't think she knew Miles, but she knows EVERYTHING about him, and his family. Where he went to high school his Mama and his Daddy etc... Calls him her 'homeboy'. :) BTW, she says KOB is so, the best Jazz record ever!! I said yes ma'am. I don't argue with anyone holding a Hypodermic needle. When I mentioned the Voodoo aunt, she went quiet, and just mumbled,"I don't know nothing 'bout that". :) She did know about Miles and Cicely Tyson. Every detail! Cheers |
Today's Listen: Lester Young -- LESTER YOUNG-THE JAZZ GIANTS The name says it all. A few more giants on board such as Roy Eldridge, Jo Jones, and Teddy Wilson. Lester Young was to be my first review of Jazz in Mississippi. Only 5 tracks. Quality over Quanity. Sort of refreshing hearing this style sax blowing. With all due respect to Bird and Trane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8cFxKVYC7A Cheers |
KOB is kind of like the Sgt. Pepper of jazz, in regards to its influence on things to come. That does not make it the best, but it does make it good enough to have a major influence on others, which pretty much speaks for itself in terms of importance, which is easier to quantify than artistic merit, which is nearly impossible. |
It was in the late 50's that a woman turned me on to Miles. Although I had heard Miles, I liked him better on "Somethin' Else" better than I did on KOB; that was an album led by Cannonball Adderly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UUziUYXlZQ I was stranded and up the proverbial creek, when a very attractive lady offered me shelter; absolutely nothing romantic, just shelter. If there was ever anyone into Miles, it was her; she must have had every album he put out up until that time. I especially remember "Round Midnight", every time I hear it, I can see that photograph of him on the cover with shades, you know the one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0 When I hear "On Green Street", I can see her face, and hear her voice; it was soft and lilting, never in a hurry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGVdAlxlp18 We spent the day playing nothing but Miles albums. Her pad was dark, except for a red light that shined on the record player. We became close friends after that encounter; platonic friends I might add. Since that time, I've observed that women who're into jazz always like Miles; they find the sound of his trumpet very alluring. Enjoy the music. |
****This is music Christ and the Apostles were listening to, all the way live, not some Baptist music out of Nawlins or Mississippi, ****** And after listening to a few tunes like this, The Good Lord inserted into the Good Book, "Make a JOYFUL noise unto the Lord". Which is what them Baptist Churches do!! I find your tone towards Baptist churches in Mississippi and Nawlins rather dismissive. :) Know Baptist Church, Know Jazz. No Baptist Church, No Jazz. Lest we forget. Cheers |
This woman moves me like no other artist, in any other genre of music. What a talent, and what a beauty!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLvEdMCUOFQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUoxCGPWrw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86egpZCM68E Cheers |
"Ry Cooder", that names rolls off your tongue like Mississippi Moonshine; I know you done heard about dat. Although his music is all over the place, I choose to focus on the music that sounds like his name, "Ry Cooder". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31FrrSlQoxo Here's Miles Davis's home town; it's one no one who lived there when he did would even recognize now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkXrd6eRRw Ry Cooder always keeps it "Real", that's what I like about the man; he's never far from the harsh reality of survival of so many millions in a world of plenty. To keep their peace of mind, many will say "All they gotta do is get a job". This one is close to home for you; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nkRVfyBc-Q Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I'm going to explain one of "your" problems, and never repeat or comment on it. "You can take the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink". This can be applied a thousand and one way's in various situations; however, no one ever ran across a "Roking Horse" before, and "Roking horses" don't get thirsty. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, BTW, Harold Land, "A Lazy Afternoon" is getting a lot of play; he gives each one of those standards the respect and delicate nuanced treatment they're due. At the same time he's retracing my life, and allowing me to relive the golden moments when I experienced a particular song. Enjoy the music. |
Paris Texas -- I have this on LP. Could not bring myself to spring for it on CD. This is the most beautiful thing about the music. The only part I had to have. Check out the Mexican singing. Beautiful!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5BhhF7yiQ I did download this from Amazon on MP3. I have my favorite parts of this, Peter Gunn, and Mission Impossible on MP3. Play them in my truck. One of the weirdest movies I have ever seen. Also have Cooder with some guy in Africa. Cheers |
You folks are sure concerned about my state of hydration! The ROKING horse has his own private water hole. The water is pure here. No foreign, no free, no Avant garde, no fusion, no continental, no experimental, no crossover, no M-base, no third stream, no Sinbad Miles, no out-there Trane, and damn little Cool and Modal. Actually, it's called JAZZ. You folks should try it. Cheers |
****Frogman, I'm going to explain one of "your" problems, and never repeat or comment on it.**** Well, that is a patently unfair stance. However, the OP is always entitled to a concession or two; a special privilege :-) ****"You can take the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink". This can be applied a thousand and one way's in various situations; however, no one ever ran across a "Roking Horse" before, and "Roking horses" don't get thirsty.**** I'm not so sure. Maybe not drinking yet; but definitely tasting it.... slowly. There are far wore "problems". Harold Land: beautiful player; unusual tone. Agree! |
Read and heed. Anathema to sound wave generators everywhere. "I think the audience for Jazz can be widened if we strengthen our work with structure. If there is more of a reason for what is going on, there'll be more over-all sense and therefore, more interest for the listener....The improvised and written sections should not take on too much complexity---the total effect must be within the mind's ability to appreciate through the ear. Also the music will have to swing, but remember that all music must do this, must have a meaningful rhythmic sense.." John Lewis, MJQ From the notes of, MJQ: THE EUROPEAN CONCERT. Got it yesterday. Excellent. Seems as if the Good Lord will always send the right stuff at the right time. :) Cheers |
Rok, I've got that same CD. I envy Ry's working with his son, that's gotta be cool; his son is sitting on the floor next to him on the cover. You ain't had the blues until you git them Ethiopian Blues, that's what this gal got. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvJbYKSF5Uw Enjoy the music. |
Cecile McLorin Salvant-- she has been in my 'CART' on amazon for quite a while, but when I place an order, she always seems to get bumped back to the 'save for later' list. Tonight after reading the latest posts here, I checked back at Amazon. Several of the reviewers there are comparing her to Ella, Sarah and Billie. One even suggested she was beyond those divas. This of course, causes my BS alarm to quiver. Sometimes it best to wait for the second album, so as to see if the artist is still a genius. But, our OP swears by her, so that's good enough for me. Next order, she will be on the list. OLD Jazz is not dead, anymore than old Classical music is dead. Greatness always stands the test of time. Today, Octber 2014, we are talkking about the greatest Jazz album. I guess we should be disccusing the latest sound waves and irritating noises from young folks. But, we are not. We are talking about two albums recorded decades ago, by players, all of whom, or at least the vast majority of whom, are dead. OLD Jazz is not dead. It is as alive as Mozart and Beethoven and Bach...... As long as we have the CDs and Records, they live!!! Have you noticed how we ALL speak of these people in the present tense?? Says it all. |
"KOB" vs "Somethin' Else": Following the OP's instructions, I listened intently. Used my CDs thru my system. Somethin' Else: I was riveted throughout the entire CD. Staying focused was easy. I heard every note. I can see why someone would consider this to be maybe the best Jazz album. The playing was just awesome. Loved the way the solos went from Miles to Cannoball, back to miles then to Jones. They all did their individual thing, but you always knew they were playing the same tune. I also liked the Tune selection. The whole performance was flawless. KOB: Great players, and great playing. I did not like the Tune selection as much as "Somethin' Else". I had to TRY and stay focused on the music. Mind would wander. The solos just were not up to the standard set in "Somethin' Else". Overall, it did not impress me nearly as much as "Somethin' Else". I don't know why anyone would consider this the best Jazz album ever. I realize, it is the best selling album. But there are many on my shelf that I consider more enjoyable to listen to. Like efforts from Silver, Morgan, Cannonball and even "Swiss Movement". I consider "Blues and the Abstract Truth" to be much better than KOB. I suspect 'Audiophile' hype is at work here. Just one Frenchman's Opinion. Cheers |
Rok, the answer can be found in the fact that "Jazz Aficionados" have never said it was so; I don't think even Miles thought it was so; and we are in 100% agreement about your other comments in regard to those other albums. While a second album would reinforce her standings, there is no doubt about this album. Only time will tell how good Ms. Salvant is, when compared to those Divas you mentioned. Enjoy the music. |
Absolutely a step in the right direction. Maybe there is hope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G99FfalLFWQ Cheers |
By Jove, I think she may be the real deal. Talent wise anyway. Hope she has good people around her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwfu4lZjD3k Cheers |
****SE = brilliant. KOB = brilliantly ethereal.**** I like that; and I agree. "Somethin Else" was discussed early in this thread's life and in trying to find my earlier comments about it (to no avail) I came a across a thread which asked what albums resemble KOB; SE was mentioned. IMO, it is nothing like KOB except for the shared presence of Miles and Cannon who, being such distinctive voices, can give the two records a deceptive similarity. KOB is a concept album with its emphasis on modality and "tunes" which began as mere sketches handed to the players at the studio. Only "Freddie Freeloader" is a traditional tune being a basic twelve bar blues. I have always felt that the inclusion of that tune was a deliberate "inside" message by Miles; as if to say: "This is NOT what KOB is about". SE is another great record; but, I am not prepared to say that it is, overall, a "better" record. The tunes are mostly standards; so, from that standpoint it is comparing apples to oranges. The playing is terrific. Miles' opening four notes in "Autumn Leaves" is a thing of beauty. Same four notes every other player who has played the tune has played. But, man, there was only one Miles; the feeling is incredible. However, to my ears,and conceptual issues aside, where KOB beats SE (handily) is in the area of cohesion: KOB sounds like a band; a band that has played together a lot. There is a very high level of player intuition; they know each other's playing in a way that helps each of them interact in a way and at a level that SE doesn't quite reach. Subtle things like at the end of Miles' solo and lead-in into Trane's solo in "So What"; the way that Jimmy Cobb, with a couple of simple hits, signals "and now, Trane!". I confess that Art Blakey has never been my favorite drummer. I find his playing a little sloppy and not propelling of the soloists enough while Cobb's is lighter and at the same time more concise and forward moving. Blakey sounds like he is on automatic pilot at times; a result of not knowing, as Cobb does, where the soloist was going next. Hank Jones, one of my favorites, is too far back in the mix and is not as much of a presence as Bill Evans is on KOB; this, in spite of the fact that Evans's playing is the epitome of "ethereal" (thanks Rockadanny). I find my attention wandering when the soloists "stretch out"; and I blame the rhythm section for that, they don't supply as much "points of interest" as does the KOB rhythm section. The reason is simple: they were assembled for the session and are not a BAND. As always, commentary has to be put in context. These are both great records and, undoubtedly, two of the greatest. The criticisms are necessarily about subtleties that would be meaningless compared to inferior recordings. For someone who doesn't think that the concept of KOB is that strong, SE probably has more to offer with it's more traditional slant. For someone who prefers the more traditional the, arguably, superior ensemble playing on KOB is probably not enough to tip the scale. As someone once said: "God (Jazz?) is in the details". (I suspect the big guy up above won't mind that comment). |
Frogman, while most of the time we agree, I consider your last post as a challenge; title this, "The Musician" vs "The Aficionado". In regard to "modality" or "no modality", KOB lacks the intense emotion of SE; maybe that's the ethereal quality of KOB. Miles music dominates this album to such an extent, that he can be heard within each solo, making the artist secondary to the music; could that be the cohesion you refer to? Without a doubt this maybe "MIles Davis" greatest album, but when placed up against the artists Rok referred to, and their best albums, KOB begins to slide down the totem pole. Oddly enough, those who are obsessed with KOB, would not be aware of those albums; and consequently, would not be considered jazz aficionados. While KOB is "one" of the greatest, it most certainly is not "The Greatest". In regard to SE, "The tunes are mostly standards", while three of the tunes are standards, I consider that a putdown. Hank Jones intro on "Autumn Leaves" is so dramatic, you don't know what he's going to go into, but you know you like it because it sounds so good. This is followed by incredible solos, from Miles and Cannonball; after Miles plays the melody, Hank comes back in and gets into the heart and soul of the tune with each note on his piano. "The tunes are mostly standards" sounds like such a put down that I'm left speechless. As I sit here trying to respond to your post, I get more and more "discombobulated"; "Art Blakey", a sloppy drummer". I can only suggest you give SE another listen, I don't know why I get the feeling you're responding to this from memory, as opposed to putting the CD on and listening to each cut, and each note as I am at the moment. While all music is subjective, I'm finding it hard to believe we're so far apart, far beyond your preference to KOB over SE, which is not hard to understand. Enjoy the music. |
O-I0, I am surprised at how strongly you reacted to my comments and I think you missed some of what I was trying to say. I have previously made my comments re KOB clear: I don't consider it the greatest nor the greatest of Miles' records. Moreover, I didn't say I prefer it to SE. In a nutshell , I simply said that I find the playing on a somewhat higher level on KOB , but that "conceptually", I have problems with KOB. "Standards" a "putdown"? Huh? NOT AT ALL. In the context of my comments it's a simple fact. Those tunes are standards; that's how they are categorized and what Miles himself would have called them. If anything, my comments about the "tunes" on KOB are the putdown. And no I m not going from memory since I listen to SE pretty regularly; I think it's a great record with some great playing. The best ever? Not for me. That's all I was saying and I pointed out, per your request, what I consider to be the differences and similarities and they are subtle, but audible nonetheless. I do think that Blakey sounds, as usual, a little lazy and sloppy. That's his style and not my cup of tea. He is obviously a great drummer. Anyway, I could go on point for point, but the important points are ( and you didn't address them directly): Cohesion is the type and level of musical interaction that a group of musicians ( a band, orchestra, chamber group) develops by playing together a lot and is simply not possible with a "pick-up" group regardless of ability. Obviously, inferior players can play together for years and still the band will sound mediocre; obviously, that's not the case with either SE or KOB. The cohesion on KOB is exemplary. That's not to say that on SE it's bad or less than excellent; simply that it's not quite on the same exalted level. The other point that I think is getting lost is that KOB, for better or worse, is a concept album. That alone puts it in a different category; doesn't make it better or worse, but makes a comparison almost pointless. IMO, better (more meaningful) comparisons would have been: " how does KOB compare to "Milestones" for instance which are both more closely related. Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear? I encourage you to redead my comments in a different light as you will find that we really don't disagree nearly as much as it may seem at first. BTW, this is MY favorite of all Miles' bands (Shorter, Hancock, Carter, Williams): https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLB9B9936580F9EE94&v=cet79P4LN4s |
There's no doubt I over reacted because I couldn't find words to express my emotions, when you said "standards", which was factually accurate, but they took those standards where they have never been before, and although I hear this every time I play that album, I can't find words to express it; evidently I'm too close emotionally to this album. I feel so much more comfortable responding to this Miles cut; I'm not sure if I've heard it before, but I like it. I see why I don't have it; it was released in 67, and that was when I was into "The Age of Aquarius", that "hippy thing"; but so was Miles; it may not have been reflected in his music, but it was certainly reflected in his dress and lifestyle. I can lay back, chill and really get into this album, especially since I haven't heard it before. Thanks for the heads-up, I'm going to put it on my play-list. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: Allow me. ****Really, what is the point of making a case for why one really good apple is better than a really good pear**** how about: (1)someone declares that the apple is the best fruit. (2) someone declares that the pear is the best fruit. (3) someone asks, which is the best fruit? Of course, in this case, the statement is not even on point, because we were asked to compare two music albums. Both firmly in the Jazz genre. The comparison is valid. I think KOB, is the end all, be all, for that certain class of "Audiophiles" with $200,000 systems and six LPs / CDs. They like it primarily because they have not heard much else. Just one Frenchman's Opinion. Cheers |
Well, I am actually glad that you decided to not "ignore" my posts; I knew you wouldn't be able to since quality and logic are difficult to ignore :-). Now, as is often the case your analysis is mired in reactive and fairly shallow thinking which, unfortunately, misses the point. To relegate KOB to simply audiophile fodder is absurd and serves only to deny yourself a more in-depth and insightful understanding of the subtleties being discussed and presented. To suggest that a meaningful conclusion can be drawn from asking "what the best fruit is" other than one person'a opinion is simply shallow thinking when there is so much to consider. The need to take sides and fall into one camp or another, likewise, belies shallow thinking. Please reread my posts with a more open mind; you might learn something. Cheers. |
***** To relegate KOB to simply audiophile fodder is absurd and serves only to deny yourself a more in-depth and insightful understanding of the subtleties being discussed and presented. ****** Do you do this on purpose? I did not 'relegate' KOB to anything. I offered an opinion as to why it's so popular among so-called "audiophiles". IOW, the folks on this forum. Don't put words in my mouth. I try to be very concise. |
****To suggest that a meaningful conclusion can be drawn from asking "what the best fruit is" other than one person'a opinion is simply shallow thinking when there is so much to consider.***** You posed the metaphor, I just gave examples of when the comparisons between unlike things would be appropriate. I thought that would be evident. Guess not. "Shallow Thinking?? hahahha I think the shrinks call that "projection". And the only thing to 'consider' is which CD you liked best. That's all there is. Your reasons for liking one over the other is interesting, but does not trump other opinions. Of course you have never been known to use 20 words when 2000 will do. |
You may try, and I commend you for trying; but, you often come across as being all over the place. Are we talking about music or are we talking about audiophiles? In the context of this discussion, who cares about audiophiles. Remember, this all started as a result of an article claiming to explain why KOB was so great and so popular. Not, popular among audiophiles, but simply popular. Are you telling us that the millions of owners of a copy of KOB own $240K systems? It's popular to that degree because it was an important and very good recording. It may not be the best but it is undeniably a great one all things considered. Now, enough of the nonsense; let's talk music. I presented specific musical examples of why KOB and SE both have merit and downsides. "I like it better" doesn't cut it. Tell me, with specific examples, why what I said is not true. Both KOB and SE are excellent records. Tell me why that is not true. Dig a little deeper. |
I,ME, MYSELF, preferred the Tunes and the solos on SE. Case closed. End of discussion. Nothing you can say will change that. That's called a fact of life. You cannot determine and dictate what other people like. ***"I like it better" doesn't cut it***** Millions of people saying "I like it better", is why it's the best selling Jazz album of all time!!! It does cut it!! Netflix time. More later. Cheers |