The Big Phat band, despite the name, was pretty good. In the video clip, they didn't appear to have the proper level of seriousness for a Jazz group.
I also thought that having the Sax section out front would have been a lot more interesting.
Four guys playing trumpet, dressed in all black, out front, should have done more with that opportunity.
They were well dressed for the occasion.
Cheers |
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******Maybe you will feel more at home with the song "Jazz Police"!*******
hahahahah very good. My fellow "aficionados" can be thankful that my jurisdiction does not extend beyond Central Texas. Otherwise, arrest warrants, for bad taste in Jazz, would have been executed in NY and MO. :)
Cheers |
Rok, although I've heard the name, she's not in my collection. As fantastic a pianist as she was, she didn't play my kind of jazz, but, she could have if she wanted to. She was primarily an entertainer, and they had to display "showmanship" for the crowd; this is what paid the bills.
"Brazil" is such a beautiful and romantic tune, what is there not to like, and that version was especially so.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
Donegan:Dorothy is not an innovator. She does not attempt to push the envelope. She is what you said, an entertainer. Which is not a bad thing. You go to hear her and party at the same time. With someone like Silver, you would have to give him your undivided attention. Another recommendation from Stereo Review.
Brazil: The reason THIS Brazil is special, is because it is the theme from a very unique movie. I can't tell you exactly what happened in the movie, because, I am not sure I know. I have only seen it three times.
I do know it seems to be a futuristic, comical, horror story. This is not your run of the mill Brazil. That's why I love it. Because of the movie. Besides, there is a lot going on in this version.
Cheers |
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I have to agree with O-10 re Valaida Snow. A wonderful talent, great entertainer; entertainer in an era when "jazz" was SUPPOSED to be unabashedly entertaining. Of her many talents, I like her singing the best; the most convincing. Her trumpet playing was very good, but I don't think Pops had anything to worry about. "World's second best trumpet player"? I don't think so; a bit of hyperbole in the interest of entertainment and showmanship (showomanship?). Great and fascinating story! I have to disagree, however, about that performance of "Brazil"; great classic tune. I have not seen the movie "Brazil", but I have a sneaky suspicion that this version of the tune is supposed to somehow complement the movie. Taken on its own, I find this rendition cheesy (like the movie?) and the singing downright awful; sorry. BTW, I wrote the above just before reading Rok's comments about "Brazil". Eventhough mine appear to be much more negative, I think we are actually saying the same thing. Here is the composer himself playing his composition with a typically Brazilian vibe; joyful (Carnaval) and just a touch of melancholy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V8goep7fVXk |
Frogman, I have that album on LP, "Stone Flower". I knew I had heard it, but I didn't know from where until now; that's not exactly a fair comparison.
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Listen: Very eclectic album. From a player/composer of extraordinary intellect. If you like Jazz you will find something here to like. Every track a winner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZq70OblqXkMy favorite 'interval' of all time!! I tired to listen to "Bill Evans At The Village Vanguard" after this, but I couldn't. Just tooooo much contrast. Will save Bill for later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgow060zOgCheers |
The Frogman:
Pops was just messin' with Snow, when he called her the second best. Her being somewhat of a novelty, i.e. Female Jazz Trumpet Player. Pops never said who the best was. He didn't have to.
Brazil: yes, this Brazil fits the movie. I read what wiki had to say about the movie. I will have to watch it again. I am not exactly sure when he started undergoing torture.
I guess his mind retreated into fantasy and this music. The movie is not about Brazil, the country nor the music. Does not take place in Brazil. Guess that says a lot about the power of the song. An antidote to horror.
Cheers |
Frogman and Rok; this thread is most enjoyable when the three of us get on one time subject, and stick to it, as opposed to jumping from one thing to another. For example; Velaida Snow has been mentioned several times, and compared with "Pops"; why don't we just get into that "era" and cover everything surrounding it, or we can get into the 40's and 50's. I can think of an important reason for doing this; although almost everyone has stated there are reasons why the music is better at one time than another, they haven't been able to give any reasons as to why? When you substitute "prolific" for better, that narrows things down, and gives a better understanding of the underlying reasons why this may be so. An example of "prolific", is all of the hit music that came out in the 40's and 50's in all genres. That music is still around in various forms in "cross genres". What I mean by "cross genres" is when a tune that came out as jazz, and crossed over to pop. Another example is country and western crossing over to R & B. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying to get into C & W or R & B, I'm trying to define the word "prolific" in the way I'm using it; that's when people say the music was better at that time, when what they mean is there was a lot more of it in "all" genres. When you substitute the word PROLIFIC, for BETTER, that might give us some insight into why this was so. As a jazz aficionado, I feel there is no doubt in regard to "jazz" in the 50's and 60's; there was more of it. Maybe there was also more POP, more C & W, and more R & B, at the same time. Believe it or not, although we're talking about music, we're also getting into economics and disposable income, as well as numerous other factors; music doesn't happen in a vacuum. When there is more "disposable income", everything is better all cross the board. In our past discussions we knew what we were talking about because those artists are in our collections, and we are familiar with them. Our new discussions would revolve around a designated "era" or time period and be restricted primarily to that time. While we might have to resort more to "Wikipedia" and "you tube", we would learn a lot. For example, "Valaida Snow" was most active in the 30's and 40's, Pops was active in the 30's and 40's, therefore we would restrict our discussions primarily to the 30's and 40's, instead of hopping all over the place. While this didn't work to well on Cuba the last time, I believe not only will it work, but we'll learn a lot. Since Pops and Valaida have both been mentioned, I'm going to begin with some artist in the 40's; "Hazel Scott" sounds good. Instead of just music, I'm going to "Wikipedia" to find out about the person as well. Hazel had long been committed to civil rights, particularly in Hollywood. She refused to take roles in Hollywood that cast her as a "singing maid." When she began performing in Hollywood films, she insisted on having final-cut privileges when it came to her appearance. In addition, she required control over her own wardrobe so that she could wear her own clothing if she felt that the studio's choices were unacceptable. Her final break with Columbia Pictures' involved a costume which she felt stereotyped blacks. She also refused to perform in segregated venues when she was on tour. She was once escorted from the city of Austin, Texas by Texas Rangers because she refused to perform when she discovered that black and white patrons were seated in separate areas. "Why would anyone come to hear me, a Negro," she told Time Magazine, "and refuse to sit beside someone just like me? In 1949, Scott brought a suit against the owners of a Pasco, Washington restaurant when a waitress refused to serve Scott and her traveling companion, Mrs. Eunice Wolfe, because "they were Negroes." Scott's victory helped African Americans challenge racial discrimination in Spokane, as well as inspiring civil rights organizations ‘‘to pressure the Washington state legislature to enact the Public Accommodations Act in 1953. With the advent of the Red Scare in the television industry, Scott's name appeared in Red Channels: A Report on Communist Influence in Radio and Television in June 1950. Scott voluntarily appeared before the House Un-American Activities Committee Scott insisted on reading a prepared statement before HUAC. She denied that she was ever knowingly connected with the Communist Party or any of its front organizations, but said that she had supported Communist Party member Benjamin J. Davis' run for City Council, arguing that Davis was supported by socialists, a group that has hated Communists longer and more fiercely than any other. Her television variety program was cancelled a week after Scott appeared before HUAC, on September 29, 1950. Scott continued to perform in the United States and Europe, even getting sporadic bookings on television variety shows like Cavalcade of Stars and guest starring in an episode of CBS's Faye Emerson's Wonderful Town musical series. Scott's short-lived television show provided a glimmer of hope for African American viewers' during a time of continued racism in the broadcasting industry and economic hardships for jazz musicians in general. Scott remained publicly opposed to McCarthyism and racial segregation throughout her career. To evade oppression in the United States, Scott moved to Paris in the late 1950s. She appeared in the French film Le Désordre et la Nuit' (1958). She maintained a steady but difficult career in France and touring throughout Europe. She did not return to the US until 1967. By this time the Civil Rights Movement had led to federal legislation ending racial segregation and enforcing the protection of voting rights of all citizens; most African Americans in the South could vote again, after nearly 100 years of many being excluded from the franchise. Other social changes were underway. Scott continued to play occasionally in nightclubs, while also appearing in daytime television until the year of her death. She made her television acting debut in 1973, on the ABC daytime soap opera One Life to Live, performing a wedding song at the nuptials of her "onscreen cousin", Carla Gray Hall, portrayed by Ellen Holly. Here is Hazel on "Rhapsody in Blue", and also on on a "Foggy Day". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBMXE9mJV4&list=PL696650744F3E9A41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBMXE9mJV4&list=PLC25026D86F95AAC9Now that you know where I'm coming from, do your thing. Enjoy the music. |
O-10:
I will have to read, and re-read your tome. For now, I have scott with her husband, Stanley Turrentine. I remember her from back in the day. I was not aware of many women, save singers, in Jazz at that time.
Nice informative post.
Cheers |
*****For example; Velaida Snow has been mentioned several times, and compared with "Pops"******
Just to set the record straight, no one compared Valaida, bless her heart, to Pops.
It was all said in jest. Even Pops was being facetious when he called the the second best Trumpet player. A way of messin' with her, and reminding everyone, as if they needed reminding, that he was, is, and always will be, The best.
Cheers |
It could be that musical genres follow something like the Bell Curve. Start off at zero, the few creators, grows to a maximun output, with maximun participation, creativity and popularity, then fades back to zero, the talent, popularity and creativity declining over time.
The main problem with geting involved with the 30s and 40s, is recording quality. Also, speaking for myself, as great as the music was, I don't own a lot of stuff recorded during that era. I think of my box sets of Bessie Smith and Robert Johnson. Great music with a great amount of noise. You LP guys probably have a higher tolerance for noise.:)
Cheers |
*****To evade oppression in the United States, Scott moved to Paris in the late 1950s. ******
You read this alot in Jazz history. It's odd / strange, that black people, would 'flee', seeking racial justice, to a continent where Tens of Millions of people were murdered, based on race, a decade earlier.
Cheers |
Here's an interesting artist, "Lila Downs Sanchez". She was born September 9 of 1968 in Tlaxiaco, Oaxaca, Mexico. She is the daughter of Anita Sanchez, a Mixtec cabaret singer and Allen Downs, a British-American professor of art and cinematographer from Minnesota. From an early age Lila showed interest in music. At the age of eight she began singing rancheras and other traditional Mexican songs. She began her professional career singing with mariachis. At fourteen she moved to the United States with her parents. She studied voice in Los Angeles and learned the English language, which her father helped her to perfect. When she was 16, her father died, and afterward she decided to return to her native Tlaxiaco with her mother. One day while she was working in a store in the Mixtec mountains a man came in to ask her to translate his son's death certificate. She read that he had drowned trying to cross the border into the United States. This deeply affected her and has continued to influence her work. She talked about this in an NPR interview about her 2001 release entitled Border. Although today Downs is proud of her origins there was a time when she felt shame regarding her Native American roots. "I was embarrassed to have Indian blood. I was embarrassed that my mother spoke her language in public." This led her on a path to find herself, which included dropping out of college, dying her hair blonde and following the band The Grateful Dead. After some time Downs found herself back in Oaxaca working at her mother's auto parts store, where she met her future husband and musical collaborator, tenor saxophonist Paul Cohen. Downs studied Anthropology at the University of Minnesota and voice in New York. Later she attended the Institute of Science and Arts of Oaxaca to complete her studies. At 25, after completing academic and music studies, Lila decided to return to Tlaxiaco. Paul Cohen always encouraged her musical ventures, and she joined a group percussion called Yodoyuxi's Cadets. Because Paul Cohen had business in the United States she began to live in both Minnesota and Oaxaca. Here is one of my favorite cuts by Lila https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtQY-gtdH4Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, Since "that's not exactly a fair comparison", is too loose to state anything specific, the statement needs clarification. The "soundtrack" is as shallow as a sidewalk puddle compared to "Brazil" on the LP, and that's what I meant.
Enjoy the music.
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Some thoughts about recent commentary:
I could not agree more with the comment that the thread loses focus and is not as enjoyable if the commentary jumps around too much; I think the reasons why are obvious. However, I think that this distinction needs to be made:
I don't think that the act of jumping around, unto itself, is a bad thing or a distraction. It is possible and potentially interesting to touch upon and show examples of, for instance, a player from the '40's who influenced a player active in the '60's. The "influence lineage" is something that has been missing here IMO; and, there has been active resistance to it as well as active resistance to the music of certain eras such as 20's, 30's and even early 40's; specifically early swing, swing and big-band eras. The issue that I have with that approach is that not enough time is spent on any one topic (or artist) to really do it justice. I have felt this way almost from the beginning of the thread. A recent example is, in fact, the recent "new Cuban music" topic.
O-10, I must say that I was surprised that after you proposed the topic and mentioned The Afro-Cuban All-Stars, that you did not post a single example of either that group or any other group; and, there was scant commentary about any of the postings until the subject was deemed exhausted a short time later. That is a great example of a topic that is abandoned way too soon (and I said so), especially given the huge numbers of musical examples available of that very rich musical heritage.
I think that it's going to be a worthwhile challenge (but certainly not impossible, and certainly potentially rewarding) to take a more pedagogical approach to the discussions as opposed to the one that was the stated one at the thread's inception: that of discussing simply one's favorite artists. I certainly welcome (should not be surprising) a more comprehensive look at the various subjects and a more in-depth analysis (yup, that IS what is being proposed; like it or not). One can't have it both ways. In order to dig deeper into any one subject we have to (to a degree) put aside our dislike of certain genres and certain styles of playing for the sake of gaining a deeper understanding of how it all ties together; and it all certainly does.
Another issue worth noting, and one that would become much more clear if the above approach is taken, is that I don't think enough distinction is made between great artists and important artists. This is not to suggest that the "merely great" artists should not be covered; obviously they deserve to be and "ties it all together". What I mean is that artists like Previn, Snow and Scott are great artists; however, IMO they are not important artists in the sense that they were not particularly influential artists. Determining wether they are important or "merely great", and the reasons why, can be one of the most enjoyable aspects of a thread such as this; personal "like" is a different matter. What makes an artist an important artist?
Scott was an important artist from the standpoint of her contributions to civil rights (and what a beauty she was!), but as far a her contribution to music one has to be pragmatic and acknowledge that she was great, but she was no Art Tatum; her mentor and a truly important artist. IMO, the notion of the either undiscovered or under-appreciated artist is overly-romanticized and generally exaggerated. Of course there have been artists that for whatever personal (or otherwise) reason did not get his/her due; but, the art world has a way of "separating the wheat from the chaff". The truly important artists will (almost without exception) be noticed; sometimes in spite of themselves. Again, we're not talking about merely good/great artists, but the important ones. I think that this perspective can be a very good and useful backdrop for these discussions. |
Frogman, you're absolutely correct in regard to the Cuban thing. In regard to my likes and dislikes, I put them aside when I suggested going to the 30's and 40's.
The computer enables me to take to take a more "pedagogical approach" through Wikipedia and you tube, and I will with your and Rok's help.
For now, I will go back to the Cuban thing, and follow that up with the 30's and 40's.
Enjoy the music.
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*****The "soundtrack" is as shallow as a sidewalk puddle compared to "Brazil" on the LP, and that's what I meant.****
I get what you mean, but you are out of context. You cannot seperate the soundtrack from the movie. Jobim's version would have been a total flop as the soundtrack. You have to see the movie. As one reviewer said, the movie is like '1984' minus Big Brother. Instead we have a regime of deadly buffoons.
This soundtrack is in the same class as the soundtrack of 'The Third Man'.
Cheers |
*****What makes an artist an important artist?*****
Well?
Cheers |
Rok, you are as right as rain in a drought; the "soundtrack" was not made for me "pontificating" or whatever in my listening room, it was made for the movie.
What makes an artist an important artist? I can't answer that one, we'll have to ask Frogman.
Enjoy the music.
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Liked Sanchez. But as a French speaker, I didn't understand a word she said. :) This is sometimes more important than at other times. Not important at all in Opera. The awesome music overcomes language. Not so with Sanchez. Turrentine: Always glad to see Jazz guys pay their respects to the good Lord. This is him with his wife, Shirley Scott, on organ. I have this CD. He seems to be more 'Jazzy' than 'Jazz'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM1h4_gPkBE&list=RDAM1h4_gPkBE#t=27Cheers |
Direction of this Thread:
I will follow you guys. You are the true Aficionados. I think of myself as representing the unwashed masses. IOW, The Dreaded 'Public'.
Cheers
I will answer The Frogman's Tome, later today. |
**** The "influence lineage" is something that has been missing here IMO*****
Well, first of all, we need to define 'influence'. I think of it, as it's used in astrophysics.. A thing exist and has certain properties. Then another thing, causes the first thing to change.
Example: The orbit of an asteroid is changed because it travels too close to a Star. The presence of the Star, and it's gravity, 'influenced', or changed, the orbit of the asteroid.
So in Jazz, we have Jazz, and then something or someone comes along and changes the way that pre-existing Jazz is played. That's 'influence'.
There are few people that have 'influenced' Jazz. Armstrong, Parker, are the obvious and quick answers. I am sure you aficionados can name many others.
BTW, if a player does change direction and no one else follows, he has not 'influenced' anything.
Cheers |
Important vs Great:
The answer to this lies with the unwashed masses. So, as you stated it, a player can be great and not important, and important, but not great. And of course, both and neither.
How could that be? Easy, the art community does not seperate the wheat, the public does. THINK about it.
Cheers |
New Cuban Music:
Does New Cuban music have to originate in Cuba? Should the music played and composed by a player of Cuban ethnicity, living in another country, be considered 'Cuban' music?
We need to answer these questions before we can begin the search for NEW Cuban music. If there is any New Cuban Jazz.
Cheers |
****What makes an artist an important artist? ****
I thought I answered that question in the paragraph that followed. Put simply, it's an artist who was influential in shaping the direction of the art. I think that the Tatum/Scott example is a good one. Scott was an extremely accomplished player and worth listening to. Tatum was a master who influenced not only Scott, but the direction of piano playing style as a whole; he's an important artist.
Rok, you shouldn't short change yourself too readily. I'm not quite sure what a "true aficionado" is, but you clearly love the music. |
****So in Jazz, we have Jazz, and then something or someone comes along and changes the way that pre-existing Jazz is played. That's 'influence'.****
Rok, you have it exactly backwards; or, at least, only partially (a small part) correct. Yes, someone like Bird comes along and changes the direction of jazz, but the impetus for that change is everything that came before Bird; THAT is the influence (on Bird). And the process continues: Bird was one of Trane's main influences (by Trane's own admission). Of course each player brings new and unique things to the table; but, of there had been no Bird, there would not have been a a Coltrane. And that is the reason that there is always worthwhile jazz including presently; it is an extension of what came before it.
Actually, there have been many who, even if not revolutionizing jazz in a sweeping way the way that Bird and Trane did, certainly influenced the change in the overall direction of jazz; it is a matter of degree.
****The answer to this lies with the unwashed masses. So, as you stated it, a player can be great and not important, and important, but not great. And of course, both and neither.****
We have been here before and the answer is the same: nonesense. I have asked for a more in depth explanation of your stance previously and I have never gotten one. Perhaps that is why you like to consider part of the unwashed masses. Hate to break it to you, you are not part of the unwashed masses. The unwashed don't listen to Mingus nor Beethoven :-) As I have said before, by your definition the best art is The Beatles (I like them btw), Michael Jackson, Kenny G, Madonna etc.
You also misread my comment re important/great. To clarify: an important artist is always great (even if one doesn't like his art), a great artist is not always important.
Cheers |
Today's Listen:
Herbie Hancock -- GERSHWIN'S WORLD
Let's see; we have hancock, shorter, jodi mitchell, stevie wonder, kathleen battle, chick corea, the orpheus chamber orch and a few more. Your musical curiosity demands that you listen to this CD. I loved it. I was surprised at Jodi. I am not that familiar with her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRUFC4NN6js
Cheers |
Under the heading of WTF!!!
"I wish I could play the piano the way I want to."
The first 'wish', from Oscar Peterson, in Nica's book.
I have an LP by Cannonball titled, "The Black Messiah". During one of his usual mini-monologues before playing a tune by Herbie Hancock, he sort of dismissed and ridiculed Herbie, because he received, and accepted, an honorary degree from Grinell College. It's in Iowa, I think.
I was shocked to hear his tone. Was there bad blood between Adderley and Hancock? Anyone know?
Cheers |
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Inportant is much better than Important. :)
Rok, the pot calling the kettle black again. It's Joni Mitchel |
Test:
Great and Important:
Parker and Gillespie - bebop
Gillespie - Cuba
Navarro - Was a transitional figure. Could have been the best ever on trumpet. Died too soon.
All the others are important in the sense that someone has to PLAY all these innovations!! :)
Cheers |
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****Was there bad blood between Adderley and Hancock? Anyone know?****
Probably not; other than the bad blood that existed between the "purists" and the ones who, in their view, "sold out" (Herbie/ funk, Headhunters etc.). Pretty silly and ironic if you ask me. Remember the "Kung Fu" clip with Cannon, Jose Feliciano and Carradine? It's sobering to realize that some of our heroes can be such close-minded musical bigots; they are human too. |
In the second set, wouldn't you have to add Kenny Clarke? I am not a drummer, but remember him changing drumming. |
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Some interesting clips of young Cubans playing new music. I notice they don't throw their elders under the bus. You don't have to destory the past to play the new. The interviews I don't understand, so I just skipped to the Music parts. This seems to be present day Cuban musical scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2g09nfWcM0Cheers |
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Frogman, really like that big band. Very fresh, even today. |
Cuba is probably the only country whose people, history and music are inextricably interwoven. I'll begin Cuba's history and music with "Afro Cuban All Stars", a popular Cuban CD that displays the fascinating music of this country, that's derived from the roots of it's people. The first cut is Amor Verdadero, it's Guajara-Son, a rural music with more of a Spanish twist. Since there are ten cuts on this CD, I suggest that we take 3 cuts each, look them up on "Wikipedia", and tell us a little bit about them. Cut 2. is Son Montuno; 3. is Danzonete-Cha; 4. is Son; 5. is Guaguanco; 6. is Guaguanco son; 7 is guaracha; 8. is Mazambique; 9. is Son; and 10. is Son Afro. Acman, you take 2, 3, and 4; Frogman, you take 5, 6, and 7; Rok, you take 8, 9, and 10; while I go into other interesting aspects of Cuba's history, and music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ4hF8EBZgAs you know, the roots of the inhabitants of Cuba are a combination of African slaves, and Spanish colonists; hence the music. I expect that defining the types of music, will shed a lot of light on the history of Cuba. In Cuba's revolution for independence from Spain, slaves fought in that war, which is one of the reasons why African music is so prominent in Cuban music. I expect your definitions of the music will dovetail with Cuba's history. I'll wait for us to meet before proceeding. Enjoy the music. |
#8 Maria Caracoles This is what Wiki has to say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_(music)I think I was on to something, when I said the "African" influence in a lot of this music does not really exist. It's just played by people of African decent. Wiki seems to think it's Cuban street music. Slaves came to to the Americas with just the rags on their backs. No musical instruments, they were not from the same African cluture, different languages and religions etc.... Conditions that made it almost impossible to transport and sustain a culture. That's why, Spirituals, Blues and Jazz, are the most American of all music in this country. No old country influence. I will complete my 'homework' after gym time. :) Cheers |
*****Cuba is probably the only country whose people, history and music are inextricably interwoven.*****
In Cuba, like almost all other countries and cultures, history and music are inextricably interwoven.
Cheers |
Well, I'm batting .500; not bad, I suppose.
****In Cuba, like almost all other countries and cultures, history and music are inextricably interwoven.****
Could not agree more.
****I think I was on to something, when I said the "African" influence in a lot of this music does not really exist. ****
Could not agree less.
That it is considered "Cuban street music" in no way negates the African influence. In fact, depending on one's points of view, it confirms it. Surely, you understand that original musical instruments are not necessary for transporting the musical heritage. Remember the comment by some musicians that perplexed you so ("I wish I could play what I hear in my head")? Similar and related idea.
Great documentaries, btw; thanks.
I will need a day or so to comment on the Afro Cuban All Stars tracks.
Cheers |
