Learsfool:
Article in the local paper about a Local jazz duo, consisting of Piano and Mellophonium.
The horn player talks about how difficult the horn is to play. He calls his, 'Attila The Horn'. It was designed to bridge the gap between Trombone and Trumpet. Stan Kenton used them in his band.
It reminded me of the exchange we had about the French Horn and how 'nimble' it was to play, which was my way of saying it could not be played fast. You corrected me.
Could you list in order of difficulty to play, the brass instruments in an Orchestra. And speak a little about what makes them more or less difficult.
The article goes on top say the Mellophonium has not been manufactured since 1977. Made by Conn. They said that like it meant something.
Thanks
Cheers |
Oliver Sain:
Wow! A lot of names from the past. I remember people talking about Willie Love in Greenville. 'Living Blues' magazine did a nice article on him a few centuries ago.
Most of the people you mentioned crisscrossed my neck of woods in their heyday. Little Milton was a regular.
You do realize there were many guys named Sonny Boy Williamson.
That's part of the charm of the blues. Everyone is buried in several different places. Killed by several different means. Charley Johnson has at least three tombstones in three different places.
And of course US Highway 61 will carry you to Chicago, New Orleans, Los Angeles or New York. What a road.
Welcome to the Land of The Blues.
Cheers |
rok2id " ... Could you list in order of
difficulty to play, the brass instruments in an Orchestra. And speak a
little about what makes them more or less difficult."
I think the French horn is, hands down, the most difficult to play of all of the brass instruments. That's because the same valve fingering can produce multiple, often closely spaced, notes.
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Rok, thanks a lot for that supporting link on Oliver Sain. He looked the same as he looked on that interview the last time I saw him; he was in the hot tub looking fit as a fiddle (however fit that is) and we talked for a long time about when he was on the bandstand, and I was in the club where he was playing, having a ball. Although we didn't know one another during those times, we were in the same space at the same time, that made us feel like long lost friends; especially considering those times spanned so many years.
(pardon me if I pass on that absurd question) Half of the south is named 'Sonny Boy'
He was so easy to talk to that he felt like a long lost friend. Late 90's is as close as I can get to the last time I saw him. Thanks again for that link.
Enjoy the music.
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cleeds:
*****
I think the French horn is, hands down, the most difficult to play of all of the brass instruments. That's because the same valve fingering can produce multiple, often closely spaced, notes. *****
That's what I thought also. That's why I could not imagine anyone playing it as a solo instrument in Jazz. At least any 'cookin' Jazz.
Thanks for the post
Our Classical oracle will speak soon.
Cheers |
DEXTER GORDON: IMO, the most-under appreciated tenor in all of jazz. Faithful, prolific yet always pushing the Bebop envelope. My favorites
Doin' Allright (1961), Blue Note
Dexter Calling... (1961), Blue Note
Go! (1962), Blue Note
A Swingin' Affair (1962), Blue Note
Our Man in Paris (Paris 1963), Blue Note – with Bud Powell
One Flight Up (Paris, 1964) – Blue Note
Dexter Gordon with Junior Mance at Montreux (Prestige, 1970) – with Junior Mance
Generation (1972) with Freddie Hubbard, Cedar Walton and others – Prestige
Swiss Nights Vol. 1 (SteepleChase, 1975 [1976])
Swiss Nights Vol. 2 (SteepleChase, 1975 [1978])
Swiss Nights Vol. 3 (SteepleChase, 1975 [1979])
Something Different (SteepleChase, 1975)
Bouncin' with Dex (SteepleChase, 1975)
Homecoming: Live at the Village Vanguard (Columbia, 1976)
Sophisticated Giant (1977) with 11-piece big-band including Woody Shaw, Slide Hampton, Bobby Hutcherson – Columbia Records
Gettin' Around (New York, 1965)
The Squirrel: Live at Montmartre (1967)
Both Sides of Midnight (Black Lion, recorded on July 20, 1967, released in 1988)
Take The "A" Train (1967)
A Day in Copenhagen (MPS, 1969) – with Slide Hampton
The Tower of Power! (Prestige, 1969) – with James Moody
Round Midnight (1986), Columbia Records
The Other Side of Round Midnight (1986) Blue Note Records
Awakenings (1990)
Live at Carnegie Hall (1998), Columbia Records – Recorded in 1978
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HERBIE HANCOCK: a virtuoso musician, an innovator and a link to so many evolutionary changes in jazz. These are my favorites:
Maiden Voyage 1965 Blue Note
The Prisoner 1969 Blue Note
Fat Albert Rotunda 1969 Warner Bros.
Herbie Hancock Trio 1977 Columbia
VSOP: The Quintet (Live album) 1977 Columbia
VSOP: Tempest in the Colosseum (Live album)
An Evening with Herbie Hancock & Chick Corea: In Concert (Live album with Chick Corea) 1978 Columbia
Feets, Don't Fail Me Now 1979 Columbia
VSOP: Live Under the Sky (Live album) 1979 Columbia
CoreaHancock (Live album with Chick Corea) 1979 Polydor
Herbie Hancock Trio 1981 Columbia
A Tribute to Miles 1994 Qwest/Warner Bros.
1 + 1 (with Wayne Shorter) 1997 Verve
Gershwin's World 1998 Verve
River: The Joni Letters 2007 Verve
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Pirius, I have a number of those same albums you have by Dexter Gordon and Herbie Hancock. I noticed you didn't mention Herbie's fusion albums, and I'm curious about them; albums like "Head Hunter" for example?
Enjoy the music
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Rok, here's another local jazz vocalist I saw a lot. The reason I'm looking up all these St. Louis musicians, is because I can't remember the name of the pianist I've mentioned so many times, who could play Silver's tunes as good as the man himself. The last time I saw him, he was at a lounge where all the "Peacocks" went; the men were as vain as the women, and were always meticulously dressed in the most expensive attire. Everyone came to see, and be seen, almost no one was listening to the music. When I came in, I was alone and I came to hear him play. He knew I liked Horace Silver, and that's when he would jam "Nica's Dream", or "Senor Blues". Most of the time I came in before he started playing so we could rap. I've already mentioned his photographic portfolio that had him playing with the musicians we have discussed so much when they came to St. Louis and needed keyboards. (watch Frogman chime in and say "You told us that before") When everybody you knew is dead, that's a scary feeling, but that's the price one pays for getting old. I'm glad Jeanne Trevor is still around. Here's the link for Mae Wheeler, I really had some good times at the places she entertained. http://www.riverfronttimes.com/musicblog/2011/06/19/jazz-singer-mae-wheeler-passes-away-updated-with...Enjoy the music. |
Rok, it's getting so bad that I have to look in the mirror, and pinch myself to make sure I'm still here. While looking for that pianist friend of mine, I just discovered the nightclub owner of the place I described as where the "Peacocks" hang, has gone on to that big club in the sky. http://stljazznotes.blogspot.com/2015/03/rip-gene-lynn-singer-and-nightclub-owner.htmlIt's so bad I'm expecting to see my obituary next. Enjoy the music. |
Hi Rok - first of all, "mellophonium" is actually a strange name. Perhaps Conn called their instrument by that name as a marketing thing. Usually, the instrument is referred to as a "mellophone." They are still very much in use in marching bands all over the country. What that article means is that Conn does not make one any more. There are plenty of other makers of mellophones, unfortunately.
Basically, a mellophone is most similar to a trumpet, except it is in a lower key, more similar to the range of the French horn. So in jazz, like in Stan Kenton's band, they were played by trumpet players. This is actually what the instrument was invented for - a "mellower" instrument that a jazz trumpet player could use. Think of it as an alternative to the flugelhorn, except the flugle horn became much more popular with the trumpet players. My guess would be that it was actually a trumpet player in your article, since he was part of a jazz group, I think you said?
However, in high school and college marching bands everywhere, there is always a mouthpiece extension fitted to the mellophones, so that French horn players can play them with their French horn mouthpieces, instead of the trumpet players. I had to play one of those things for two years in a high school marching band, and hated every minute of it. They are poorly designed instruments that do not play very well in tune, and don't have a particularly interesting tone quality. They are used by the French horn players in marching bands because they are bell front instruments - as you know, the French horn bell faces backwards, and it is much easier to march and play a mellophone than a French horn.
Another key difference is that mellophones are cylindrical instruments, like the trumpet (like I said, they are basically big fat trumpets) and trombone, as opposed to conical, like the French horn and the tuba. This accounts for the brighter tone quality, closer to a trumpet in sound than a French horn is.
I have had to play some of those Stan Kenton charts in the past on pops concerts, though of course we played them on French horn, which made them much harder, since they were definitely written for trumpet players playing mellophones - they are very high parts, and though I made it through that week, I actually injured myself doing it - the first time that had ever happened to me in my career. I hope I never have to play them again.....I should explain that my specialty on the horn is the low register - I play the bottom part in the section, I am the bass of the quartet of horns, if you will. So those screaming high Stan Kenton mellophone parts were especially difficult for me personally. If you go on YouTube and look for videos of the Stan Kenton band, you can see the difference between the trumpet and the quite a bit larger mellophone. They are trumpet players playing them there. It is much more common in marching bands for horn players to play them, though, and that is about the only place you ever hear mellophones anymore. They suck, and just about all horn players hate them with a passion. They also confuse the kids, because since they are actually big fat trumpets, they are fingered like trumpets, instead of like the French horn. So the students have to use one set of fingerings in marching season, and another set when they go back to their French horns for concert season.
I believe you live in Texas somewhere? If so, you have definitely seen mellophones at pretty much any high school or college football game on the marching field at halftime. And it is definitely the poor horn players that are forced to play them, sigh....my junior year, I escaped to finish high school at an arts academy, and never had to play one of those damn things ever again. Never had to play in a marching band ever again, either. That is terrible for the embouchure - it ruins many, many brass players. |
Learsfool:
Thanks for the info. Yes I am familiar with Mellophones in marching bands. I played Bass Trumpet in the marching band, and Fluglehorn in Concert Band. Jack of all trades, Master of none. :)
Cheers |
Fans of Dexter and Herbie should own the Complete Blue Note 60's boxed set by each artist. Happy Listening! |
Excellent and informative post by Learsfool. In response to a related question, and I certainly don't want to answer for him as concerns the relative difficulty of playing the different brass instruments: as concerns woodwinds, it is common to proclaim one instrument as being more difficult to play than another; the oboe being a common recipient of the "most difficult to play award". Having had experience with all the woodwinds, something that I strongly suspect also applies to brass instruments, is that they all have their own unique set of diffiuculties and it is impossible and pointless to try and deem one more difficult than the other. It is true that at the beginning stages of the learning process some instruments are probably somewhat easier to make a decent sound on, but to achieve mastery of an instrument their own unique and equally difficult technical idiosyncrasies have to be conquered.
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Re "Take Five": Good catch by Rok re the absence of Morello’s solo on the video and interesting comments about his timing which go to the heart of the tune and to Tito Puente’s version (yes, they are all connected 😉) . Morello was undoubtedly a brilliant drummer, but the reason that he "strikes in unexpected places" in his solo on the original version of the tune is because the tune is in 5 (hence the title). Being in 5 (five beats to the measure) the accents at the beginning of a measure or phrase feel "unexpected" in comparison to a tune that is in the much more common 4/4 time. Which leads me to Tito’s version: the heart of the tune is missing. Tito’s version is done in 4/4 and consequently sounds and feels very awkward. A melody composed in 5/4 is "forced" to fit ino a Latin 4/4 rhythm. Btw, notice how much faster the tempo is on Brubeck’s live video version vs the album version. Interesting interview; Paul Desmond interviews Charlie Parker and speak about practice and schooling: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsqYo9r_dE |
Pirius, two of my very favorite players, Dexter and Herbie. But, you don't mention Herbie's "Taking Off" which features Dexter himself and the always brilliant Freddie Hubbard: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7wcYrx4d3Jg |
Today's Listen: Ron Carter & Jim Hall -- TELEPHONE Just Guitar and Bass, but it works just fine. Speaking of nimble!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Omlufc2rwThanks to The Frogman for the insight on 'take Five'. We all know what we like and don't like, but The Frogman tells us why we do and don't. Cheers |
Frogman reminds me that I never answered that question about what is the hardest when I went off on my mellophone rant, LOL! He is absolutely correct that each instrument has it's own problems. Among the brass, though, as I think I have said before, it is usually said that the horn is the hardest - we have to cover the largest range on the smallest mouthpiece, which means we are using less surface area, and therefore taxing the muscles more. We also are regularly called upon to produce a wide variety of tone colors in the orchestra - some consider the horn the most versatile of orchestral instruments, in fact (the cello perhaps being the most versatile solo instrument in the orchestra). We are called upon to do many different types of things, and to regularly blend with the woodwinds just as much, in fact often more, than we do with the rest of the brass. It definitely requires a particularly good musical ear to play the horn professionally. The horn also has perhaps the best solo repertoire of all wind instruments, though the clarinet has some really nice solo rep as well, certainly the best among the woodwind instruments. (And some consider the clarinet the hardest to master of all the woodwinds, too. It used to be much more common than it is now, but there are still a few schools that offer a master's degree in woodwind specialty - some of the doublers we have talked about on Broadway have this degree - do you, Frogman? Those who have done such a degree are usually in agreement that the clarinet was the hardest one to play a really good recital on, and that the saxophone is the easiest by some distance; in fact I don't think I have ever heard anyone disagree that the saxophone is easiest among those who have actually played them all.)
We also talked some about the trombone and how the slide makes it, in the words of one of the best orchestral trombone players, both the easiest and the hardest instrument to play in tune. Easy because you can fix your tuning extremely quickly with the slide, but hard because it is extremely difficult to nail it exactly, again because of the slide. The tuba is not the easiest one to play, either - it requires moving the air quite differently from the rest of the brass. What is usually considered the easiest brass instrument to play is the euphonium, it is sort of like the sax in that way, and I would agree with that. Except it is much more financially lucrative to play sax, since the sax has such a big place in jazz and in musical theater. The euphonium doesn't have a big place anywhere.... |
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Q: How do you make a trombone sound like a French Horn?
A: Take your hand out of the bell and lose all sense of taste.
Q: What's the difference between a tenor saxophone and a lawnmower?
A: You can tune a lawnmower.
😊
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A group of terrorists hijacked a plane full of tenor players…
They called down to ground control with their list of demands and added that if their demands weren’t met, they would release one tenor player every hour.
Cheers |
Kenny G gets on an elevator and says “Wow! This rocks!”
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How many sax players does it take to change a light bulb?
Sixty. One to change the bulb and fifty-nine to talk about how much better Michael Brecker would have done it.
Cheers |
Perhaps something Freudian involved (not!), but I got the protagonists of my trombone joke backwards. Should be:
Q: How do you make a French Horn sound like a trombone.
A: Take your hand out of the bell and lose all sense of taste.
☺️
Another fave:
Definition of "perfect pitch":
You throw the trombone in the lake and hit the viola.
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I was just reading about "Live Trane: The European Tours" ; Trane, tenor and soprano sax; Erik Dolphy alto sax, bass clarinet, flute; McCoy Tyner piano; Reggie Workman bass, Jimmy Garrison, bass; Elvin jones drums. This set contains music from nine concerts that took place between November 61, and November 63 ( I saw Trane, McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Jimmy Garrison, in the dead of Winter 63, must have been in January)
The sonic quality of this set is 2 1/2, while the performance is rated 5 out of 5 stars. There are five versions of Mr. PC, four of "Naima" and six of "My Favorite Things", ranging from 14 to 25 minutes. I saw the 25 minute version; fortunately there was a musician seated at our table who thoroughly enjoyed the extra time on my favorite things, while the rest of us were somewhat bewildered. I'm sure that Frogman, and Learsfool would have appreciated that extra time, because they're musicians.
A case can be made that "Live Trane" documents the crucial transition in Coltrane's artistic development, when he moved from chord-based "vertical" improvisation to open ended "horizontal" melodic invention based on scales and modes.
Carlos Santana states, "John Coltrane broke through to the other side. He found "The Light", and for a time, he became "The Light". This concert contains eight hours of music, you glimpse what it was like to be in the presence of Coltrane when he lived.
I think that last paragraph sum it all up.
Enjoy the music.
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When People think of John Coltrane, they seldom think of his sentimental side; "Coltrane for Lovers" exposes a side of "Trane" that's rarely explored. All tracks have John Coltrane playing tenor saxophone. 1. "My One and Only Love" 2. "Too Young to Go Steady" 3. "In a Sentimental Mood" 4. "It's Easy to Remember" 5. "Dedicated to You" 6. "You Don't Know What Love Is" 7. "After the Rain" 8. "My Little Brown Book" 9. "Soul Eyes" Mal Waldron 10. "They Say It's Wonderful" 11. "Nancy (With the Laughing Face) The recordings compiled for Coltrane for Lovers initially received criticism for Coltrane's stylistic move from complex jazz compositions of the free jazz form to a simplistic formula of ballads and blues. Following the initial controversy, the album's recordings gained a legacy as one of Coltrane's most popular recordings and significant in the genre of romantic jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r594pxUjcz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrwSuy6ZBjI Here we have "In a Sentimental Mood" and "You Don't Know What Love Is" Enjoy the music. |
Frogman (an others?), I just played a 'Latin Jazz' recording that I thought you might enjoy if you haven't already heard it. On the down side it did win a Grammy and it is relatively recent. Charlie Haden's (an excellent bassist IMHO) recording on Verve "Land of the Sun". Gonzalo Rubalcaba plays the piano. Outstanding late night romantic jazz, I think. The devil made me do it! :-) |
"Outstanding late night romantic jazz", that's a perfect description; right now the sun is shining very bright, and it's a long time since I've been in a romantic mood. After it gets dark, if I can find anyone to get in a romantic mood with, that just might work; but seriously, I checked a few cuts, and I think it's a nice album.
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool (and others), I was playing a disc the other night and I though of you - not your horn but I'm sort of indiscriminate (so I'm told). Andre Previn and Thomas Stevens play a classic american songbook on DRG. This may not be more than some beautiful dinner jazz, but for me anyway that's enough.
Makes me think more about the evolution of jazz and its 'apparent' demise to many after Miles Davis came along and did his thing. I didn't really gain interest in jazz until the late 80's. My interest then was an intellectual thing . I really didn't have a musical connection to the jazz of the 50's and 60's. When I investigated the recommendations from jazz enthusiasts most of the music was from the 50's and 60's and, to me anyway, much was inaccessible. A lot of disconnected notes. Like Berg and Schoenberg in modern classical music, aka just 'noise'. Getting into this jazz was hard work! Almost too hard.
I didn't start to appreciate jazz after until I heard the 'dinner jazz' (a softer jazz perhaps) of musicians such as Previn, Person, Ron Carter, Byrd, Pass, and Peplowski, just to name a few. For me this was a pre-coital kiss. The rest came more naturally after this adaptation.
I don't know if my experience has any universality but if it does could not the frequent whine of the demise of jazz actually have more to do with it than the actual, and continuing natural evolution of a music form?
This thinking thing is too hard - I'm glad that unlike you and Frogman I don't have to do it for a living. :-)
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I was perusing through an old "Stereophile" for music reviews when I ran across this:
"Moanin" was a swinging 1958 session featuring Lee Morgan and Benny Golson who put his mark on the band by composing three long time standards for it's book- the title track "Along Came Betty" and "Blues March". They go on to speak of how good the rest of the musicians are, except "Bobby Timmons" , quote: "It sounds as if Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano" then they go on to gush over everybody else on that album.
There ought to be a law against "Stereophile" ever writing a review on another jazz record.
First, they give "Bobby Timmons" tune "Moanin" to Benny Golson, and next they say he's playing less than stellar piano, when every time he strikes a piano key on this album, perfect jazz come out. It's for sure there are no "jazz aficionado's" at "Stereophile"
Enjoy the music.
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Since Previn goes back and forth between classical and jazz, I can't account for his classical music, although I assume it's as good as his jazz. He was one of the early jazz musicians I acquired, and those records were excellent.
The music on Classic American Songbook is excellent. I don't think, if I like it, that's good enough for me. I like "American Classic Songbook", and I've always considered that music "jazz", although it can also be considered pop.
In regard to the evolution of jazz, or a general musical question, I'm sure others can answer those questions better than me.
Enjoy the music.
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Newbee, thanks for the recommendation. I had not heard this record eventhough I've been a fan of Haden and Rubalcaba for a long time. As you say, Haden was (!) a wonderful and extremely creative musician. Rubalcaba is an amazing virtuoso and one the very best younger Cuban musicians on the scene. "Esta Tarde Vi Llover" (trans: I saw it rain this afternoon) is a bolero written by Mexican composer Manzanero, but appropriated by Cuban singers and musicians and has become a standard in Cuban music; beautiful song. Joe Lovano sounds wonderful on this record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUwKNw3g48****but if it does could not the frequent whine of the demise of jazz actually have more to do with it than the actual, and continuing natural evolution of a music form?**** I think you're exactly right and precisely the point that I've tried to make many times here; I refer to it as the inevitability of the evolution of the music. As far as the listener goes, through an open mind and exposure what may sound like noise at first (Berg) can be appreciated for the beauty in its unique and strange musical language. |
Coltrane for lovers:
It's a compilation. I have found that I usually have all the music on the initial CD releases. I almost sprung for Coltrane's 'Heavyweight Champion'. But, like most one-artist compilation I had most of it, and just too many alternate takes.
*****
Since Previn goes back and forth between classical and jazz,***
He doesn't travel That far while going back and forth.
Stereophile:
I can't understand why you would read that rag for ANY reason. If they encourage people to spend serious money on wire, and every other audio con out there, why would you value their opinion on ANYTHING? Esp something as important as Jazz / Music.
Cheers |
Hi Newbee - I would say that your experience is quite common. Many people that don't think they like something when they first hear it change their minds later, after more exposure to things more easily understandable.
Artists, too, both composers and performers, react to each other all the time.
There is a movement away from dissonance in the classical music world as well - many of the current composers are writing much more tonal music again. Others are reacting against this.
I think much of it has to do with the times. You mention Berg and Schoenberg - they were living and writing in a time when the world was in the middle of two huge wars, and their music reflected that, as did that of many other composers, in different ways. Much of the minimalism that is being written today is a reaction against that type of music.
A lot more dissonance crept into jazz in the 50s and 60s, as different social movements for change happened, some of them violent. I think the smooth jazz of the 80s and 90s was in part a reaction to that.
An example from earlier in history - Richard Wagner changed music more than any other artist has ever effected his/her art form, though not in the way he thought he would, with his "Gesamtkunstwerks." But for pretty much 100 years after him, every composer had to deal with him and his ideas, and everything was a reaction to it. Music splintered off in so many different directions after that - it was never the same. Even Beethoven did not change music as radically as Wagner did. Ok, enough rambling for the night. :)
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Rok, I have "Coltrane for lovers", and none of those songs appear on other CD's; but it states Coltrane Live has duplication that appear on other CD"s. From the description, it's probably best for "musicians"; while the cuts have the same titles, the music is quite a bit different, for example 40 minutes of "My Favorite Things".
Now that you mention it, Andre Previn does not travel far, "Like Young" is a record by him that I liked, it came out in 59, when "hippies" were "Beatniks", also check "My Fair Lady"; most of his stuff was West Coast".
Old Stereophiles are excellent for starting a fire in the fire place, or the Bar B Q pit.
Enjoy the music.
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Great thread! Listening to "In a Silent Way" as I read through thread while thinking of any bases not yet covered RE "Jazz for aficionados". Have been on long quest for quality recordings that offer something different and gave remarkable sound quality. Here are a couple:
Billy Tate Meets Dollar Brand - Chiaroscuro Records, 1977
Out of the Storm - Ed Thigpen - Verve, 1966
Hope these aren't re-threads - Thanks for all the tips here. |
O-10, re Mary Lou Williams:
Not much room for a "professional critique" in those two cuts, really; especially "Mary Lou’s Blues". What I mean is that I am reminded of the movie "Ratatouille" in which the restaurant critic "critiques" a plate of ratatouille; one of the most basic of comfort foods. Twelve bar blues is as basic and comfortable as you can get and Williams plays with a great sense and feel of the blues. As with a plate of great ratatouille the way she plays the blues feels just right; and with her own unique sense of rhythm, just like grandma’s ratatouille would be just right but still identifiable as grandma’s. I like the way she "floats" around the rhythm while still having a good sense of forward motion. I wouldn’t call "ML’s Blues" a "tune" at all since it is really just the piano player riffing on a blues chord progression and there is no identifiable nor repeated melody that would qualify it to be a "tune". Both "ML’s Blues" and "Blues" are twelve bar blues in the key of G with "ML Blues" being in 3/4 time (think blues waltz) and "Blues" is in the more common 4/4 time.
Stereophile and "Moanin":
While I don’t have any great love for the mag, I don’t share you disdain for it and, personally, have found quite a bit of useful info and even good music reviews in it; especially during the JGH days. I just listened to "Moanin" from that session and I think you may be misinterpreting what the reviewer means when he says that Timmons is "playing a less than stellar piano". He’s right! But, I believe he is referring to the piano itself (instrument) not Timmons’ playing. The piano sounds like a "less than stellar" upright piano and is obviously out of tune; especially the left hand portion of the keyboard. Believe it or not it happens; session is scheduled and the piano tuner doesn’t show up or is simply not a good technician, or it’s simply not a good piano. This can also have an effect on the player’s performance; although Timmons plays just fine on it. I would, however, agree that Morgan and especially Golson sound amazing on that cut. |
Frogman, Although I've heard a lot of jazz where the piano was less than perfect (good equipment reveals that) I interpreted "playing less than a stellar piano" as a judgement call in regard to Timmons playing and that's where "Stereophile" has often fallen short.
I don't know what's required to "hear" jazz, but they ain't got it. While I don't know music, I know good jazz when I hear it, and Bobby Timmons hit jazz licks as good as any I've ever heard. All things are judged through the prism of time, and the masses of those who are qualified to judge, and Stereophile has consistently struck out when it comes to jazz; they didn't even know who wrote "Moanin"; that spoke volumes for their qualifications.
Enjoy the music. |
"Long tall Marcia Ball"; that's what they call her down there in the swampland, and I call her music "Gator Boogie". She doesn't play the kind of music you expect to read about on a jazz thread, but occasionally I deviate. Marcia is influenced by the Gumbo Grooves of Dr. John, and the rhumba-boogie licks of Professor Longhair. When you add it altogether you got Louisiana "Honky Tonk". Let's check her out; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H240ErU_dtMDo you think I gave a good description of her music? Here's "Sparkle Paradise" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBRruP-_CYEMarcia really has a good time. Learsfool, why don't you hip us to some cool Classical music. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, you could well be correct about what that reviewer meant, after all it's impossible to tell from a couple of words taken out of context, regardless of what I hear re the instrument. I would be very interested in reading the entire review. Kindly tell me where it can be read. Who is the reviewer? Thanks.
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Frogman, This is the September 97, issue; Wes Phillips is the reviewer, and the context is in regard to the music, not the instrument.
On my first post, that paragraph is from the magazine; they gave "Moanin" to Benny Golson.
Preceding this sentence, they spoke of Morgan's rich tone. "It sounds as though Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano, but the power of Blakey's drums, which drive the show, is especially well rendered- with lots of room sound and natural decay."
Since he spoke of "Morgan's rich tone", before "stellar piano" and the power of Blakey's drums, after "stellar piano". We clearly have the musicians performance before and after "stellar piano"; therefore it's impossible for me to assume that's in reference to an out of tune piano, although it's possible.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
Timmons is playing a less than stellar piano*****
If he was speaking of his playing, he would not have included the letter 'a' in the sentence. He would simply have said "he was playing less than stellar piano".
He was speaking of the piano itself.
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Maybe if he had a"stellar" piano, the tune would not have turned out nearly as good. This music conveys the thought, and emotions behind the music better than any I've ever heard. Without the words, Bobby Timmons music tells a complete story; maybe a stellar piano would not have communicated the helplessness as well.
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I doubt it; a great instrument always helps. This is one of those situations where, in my opinion, it’s important to understand the context. I am not going to defend Stereophile; it is an audiophile magazine and we are concerned about music first. Having said that, I have read some record reviews in that magazine that consider the music to a significant degree; iow, I personally would not be too quick to bash them. If insightful opinions about music is what I am looking for there’s much better sources out there.
Still, I know Wes Phillips from the days when he was a salesman at the original "Stereo Exchange" in NYC and and started writing for TAS, and I can tell you that the guy has ears and is an avid music lover and live concert goer. I cannot think of too many audiophiles (or even music lovers) who can name members of the NY Phil and is into jazz more so than most. That they credited the tune to the wrong composer is not good; but, again, "JazzTimes" probably wouldn't have. In keeping with the fact that he wrote for an audiophile mag, the comments about "Moanin" all have to do with "sound" and less about performance which was the reason I surmised he was talking about the piano: "rich trumpet tone", "power of the drums", "ambience", "decay", all audio-speak. |
Frogman;
This debate boils down to one Letter of the alphabet in one sentence, not Wes Phillip's life history, and Rok spelled that out. This is the same as the last debate that revolved around 1 individual who did not practice for 1 summer when he was performing three times a week.
Serena Williams lost an early round match in Australia after coming off an illness that prevented her from playing in tournaments. When asked about that loss, she said she practiced hard and prepared for the match, but that's not the same as tournament competition. The only thing that can prepare you for that, is playing matches.
My friend was playing his instrument before he started school, similar to Mary Lou Williams; performing in front of a live audience is what he needed, not practice. Just as Serena Williams could only get tournament tough by competing in tournaments, he needed the live audience; that was his competition play, especially since this was new music. You and Learsfool took what I said, to mean that I said no jazz musician need ever practice.
What I said in regard to making a fire in the fire place was in jest, how else could I have had a September 97, magazine in my possession. Since I have many more before and after that date; evidently I consider the magazine worthy of better things than starting fires.
Have you ever heard the expression of "Making a mountain out of a molehill"?
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Any Coltrane, is good Coltrane.
Get all of his boxed sets. Happy Listening!
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Brubeck and the 2012 posts:
I am surprised I am / was so consistent. Would not change a word.
Thanks. I enjoyed reading all that.
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