Jazz for aficionados
Learsfool , somewhere during our discussions, I determined that our mystery jazzman was a organist. I can't remember when or where, and I never was able to be 100 percent sure, but somewhere through the years I decided he was an organist. Does it change your opinion of the possibilities of O-10's magic summer? O-10, am I hot or cold? |
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There is expression that says that all art was modern, in one point in time. Process of reception of a 'new art' was always hard and history of any art is full of examples when some, at first scorned, art form has become recognised and valued. There is no surprise to me that same discussion is held here, the principal question beeing to define what is 'jazz jazz' music , in opposition to music that was created couple decades later and by opinions of some, does not deserve to be called by the same name. Setting or recognising the standards who could enable us to understand music better proved to be much harder, because the discussion became somehow irrational and its emphasis was never about the principles of music, neither about social or cutural era that influenced or shaped some particular form, instead the 'arguments' were drawn on basis of personal feelings and experiences. Even if one (or many) wants to declare that 'having soul' is the most important factor which will determine which music has a right to be called 'jazz jazz', I belleive that he owes us an explanation what 'soul' is, in music anyway. So far I have not read any such attempts. If this 'discussion' is going to continue I would certainly like that any attempt in 'proving' any point is concentrated on confronting the thoughts instead of persons. As for my opinion,on this subject, or better, I should say taste, if anyone cares, is that I prefer music that was created up untill lets say 1965. Later, maybe only if the style hasnt changed much, usually made by same protagonists. In the same time I am very curios to understand what someone very knowledgabe ( like Frg.and Leafr.) prefer about new expressions and why they value the idea behind the music more than its aestetchics (correct me if I am wrong) Also, I think, by learning and later perhaps knowing or recognising 'their point' can open the whole new world in appreciating the music that now stays beyond our understanding. https://youtu.be/Q3bbsDJWlXQ |
Whenever I read the comments section of a major new story I always regret it and come away with an "unclean" feeling. Will I ever learn to not click on the comments section? This thread is the Audiogon equivalent. Frogman, I applaud your effort to fight the good fight, but it's time to stop. I have never experienced a more concerted effort by a few individuals to not learn what they do not know. Logic, knowledge and experience have their limits. You would have a better chance of changing the mind of a creationist regarding biological evolution. |
Alex, I previously said that I needed a break from this thread. Your post is, in many respects, the best vacation of all. That was a fantastic post and I agree point for point; an extremely insightful post which is much of what I had hoped this thread would be in part; and, yes, per the OP. Thank you! However, I do need a break so as not to succumb to the temptation of pointlessly responding to some other, not nearly as thoughtful, comments. I will address your great post in (hopefully) short order. Perhaps you, yourself, or others can get the ball rolling exploring your comments. Ohnwy61, you are probably correct. Alex’s post portends well, however, and there are always better and smarter ways to take the high road. Time will tell. |
Speaking of Jazz divas. Miss Wright made the cover of Downbeat in Jan 2016. This CD, (Dreaming Wide Awake) made it to number one on the Contemporary Jazz Charts. For what that's worth. She is sort of hard to put in any box. Sings blues and gospel also. From Georgia, sang in the church, father was a preacher, College in Atlanta. So far so good. Then near disaster. Attended the New School in NYC and also 'studied' in Canada. But, she seems to have survived the experience with her musical sensibilities intact.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobnjdYOnyw Her Gospel CD is pretty good also. (Fellowship). Cheers |
Rok, If you are interested in 'jazz' vocalists you might be interested in the music of Laverne Butler, Rene Marie, and Mary Stallings. All contemporary vocalists. All have recorded on the MaxJazz label. I'm not sure how well known they are (on this forum anyway) but they are certainly well worth knowing! Sorta like Etta Jones. And Etta James. They sure won't put you to sleep. I like Karren Allyson well enough, but when I want more relaxed jazz vocals I seem to migrate to Shirley Horn. She excels IMHO. Plays a pretty good piano too. FWIW. Just to show you what you are (not!) missing by my reluctance to contribute to this thread. |
Alex, First, nice thoughtful post. My POV is a bit more simplistic perhaps, but I believe most folks are anchored to music they found appealing during their youth and unless they developed a serious interest in a particular idiom they, at least subconsciously, resist the progression this music takes . Some resist and reject this evolution and dismiss it. Some enjoy and encourage this progression, more food for their brain I think. I came to jazz when I was an adult so I had no fixed opinion about the value of music from the introduction of recorded jazz from any particular period. Blessed, perhaps with this ignorance, I was free to explore/like/reject music from all of the various periods and styles of jazz. What I found, and it was an experience I had in dealing with the evolution of classical music from the 'classical' period thru the 'modern' period was that each new period required some attention and, more importantly perhaps, just passive acclamation, to the form and the sounds. I was in my Beethoven period and dating a woman musician employed by a symphony orchestra. She was helping me with my Beethoven experience and casually mentioned that she most enjoyed playing Shostakovitch's music. I listened once and was baffled by all the noise. I didn't listen again for perhaps 10 years. Now I've blown through his music (an a lot of other from his period) and have learned to accept and or reject his compositions based on nothing more or less than my appreciation. I think what has saved me from anchoring myself to Beethoven's period was nothing more or less than a native curiosity. I feel fortunate in my approach to Jazz. I feel no more reluctance in listening to the music of , for example, Ron Carter, Brad Mehldau, Charlie Haden, Roy Hargrove or Joshua Redman than I would to the music of Henderson, Jones, Getz, Evans, Benny Carter, Peterson, (and all of the famous players from the 50's, 60's and 70's). I think there is nothing wrong with 'personal feeling and experiences' controlling your personal enjoyment of the music but, like you, I fail to find it a credible basis for argument, or any valuation for that matter. One of the things that I most enjoy about both Frogman and Learsfool is their continuing interest in the music itself without a chronological anchor. A trait I think most musicians share. I apologize in advance for this wordy, self absorbed perhaps, explanation of my views. |
Newbee: Seems like I have seen or been in this movie before. A certain person throws a hissy-fit, and storms off the thread. Then we have all these previously unknown and unheard 'supporters' 'coming forward' to say things like "you did your best", "they are beyond help", "why do you even bother", "you fought the good fight", etc........ oops almost forget the most dreaded of all "they are arrogant". Now I have asked this question before, with no answer. There is never an answer. But, since you are sort of new as a poster I thought maybe you could answer this question. Exactly what is it that certain people are trying to teach us, that we, because of our ignorance and / or arrogance just don't seem to get? If I knew the answer to this, perhaps the whole thread would be different and more civil. Please answer if you feel you can. And in DETAIL with examples. Thanks Cheers |
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Rok, If you are interested in 'jazz' vocalists you might be interested in the music of Laverne Butler, Rene Marie, and Mary Stallings. All contemporary vocalists. All have recorded on the MaxJazz label. ***** I first became aware of Rene Marie when she performed on the Jazz at Lincoln Center Christmas CD/DVD. (Big Band Holidays) She did "is dat you Santa Claus" Loved it. The others I will certainly check out. I have a lot of Shirley Horn. I need to revisit her. Sometimes you have gems on the shelf and don't even realize it. Thanks for the post Cheers |
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One of the things that I most enjoy about both Frogman and Learsfool is their continuing interest in the music itself without a chronological anchor. A trait I think most musicians share.***** I think the opposite. All musicians have a chronological anchor. Which is different from being stuck in the past. Some may venture way out there (miles, trane, mingus) but they always knew where they and the music came from. The problem might be that many modern player's anchor point is only a few years ago. Long after the Golden age. Cheers |
Rok, I can't (or maybe just won't) try to answer your 'unanswered question', except to say that I thought that your posts as well of the posts of Orpheus were, far more often than not, more about yourselves and your perceptions/opinions, than the music itself. Sharing an opinion with others can be a fine thing, but confusing your opinion, and/or valuation, of the music itself, or even a specific performance, with something absolute, is too god like for me to want to endure. Nothing new here. I said as much 3 years ago. If I were a musicologist I would gladly converse with one. Not being one I would still enjoy talking with one and trying to gain some knowledge. If I were a musician I would love to discuss my musicianship with other musicians. I might have more difficulty with this conversation as I have no shared experience to begin with. This may be why I like/appreciate Frogman and Learsfool - they are both generous of spirit and their time in trying to inform others. But I'm neither of the above, only a listener. I can share with others only my appreciation for that which I have heard, or perhaps for what I would wish to hear. And that is enough for me. :-) |
Instead of posting, I decided to "re-post" your's Seems like I have seen or been in this movie before. A certain person throws a hissy-fit, and storms off the thread. Then we have all these previously unknown and unheard 'supporters' 'coming forward' to say things like "you did your best", "they are beyond help", "why do you even bother", "you fought the good fight", etc........ oops almost forget the most dreaded of all "they are arrogant". Now I have asked this question before, with no answer. There is never an answer. But, since you are sort of new as a poster I thought maybe you could answer this question. Exactly what is it that certain people are trying to teach us, that we, because of our ignorance and / or arrogance just don't seem to get? If I knew the answer to this, perhaps the whole thread would be different and more civil. Please answer if you feel you can. And in DETAIL with examples. I would also like the answer to those questions. |
@onhwy61 ***** You would have a better chance of changing the mind of a creationist regarding biological evolution.****** Or changing the minds of audiophiles that can 'hear,' fuses, or cable lifters, or speaker wire, or bricks on top of their CD players, or green magic marker on their CDs, or....I'm beginning to feel 'unclean', so I think I'll stop now. You get my drift. BTW, I always consider these beliefs held by Audiophiles when listening to comments or advice from people on this forum. Puts them and their thoughts in proper perspective. Cheers |
Rok, you asked the questions at 02:09PM and I re-posted your question at 03:56 PM,and it is now 08:25PM. When are we going to get answers? I'm patient, I can wait till the swallows come back to Capistrano, or the cows come home, whichever comes first. Do you think your questions will get answered? In the meantime, enjoy the music, I know I am |
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Do you think your questions will get answered?***** They say doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different result each time is a good definition of insanity. I ain't crazy. So no, there will be no answer, there never has been one, and for a good reason. That reason is, the real 'problem' here is that some people just resent not being treated as Oracles. Oracles were beings in human form, thru whom the gods spoke. No discussion, No disagreement, and no opposing opinions allowed. You just listen. This is in spite of the fact that we always deferred to their musical expertise on matters of an academic or factual nature. But even so, on occasion, we still had the temerity to think for ourselves. To express our opinions. We just weren't submissive enough. It's as Simple as that. That is what we don't / didn't 'get'. Cheers |
OK, I found that discography of Julius Watkins, for those interested. The Blue Note recordings I mentioned are simply titled The Julius Watkins Sextet, Vols. 1 and 2. Other albums he was the leader on: French Horns For My Lady/Philips The Jazz Modes/Atlantic The Most Happy Fella/Atlantic Four French Horns Plus Rhythm/Elektra Mood in Scarlet/Dawn Smart Jazz for the Smart Set/Seeco There are couple of others that he is the leader on that appear to be compilations. |
As far as the answers to your questions - you both know very well that both Frogman and I have multiple times on this thread over the years offered very good suggestions about where and how to learn more about music. Anyone can easily go back through the thread and find them. You will also notice that each time, we were vilified for it, by the both of you. O-10 in particular seems very proud of his ignorance, and is even more adamant than Rok about his refusal to learn any more. I remember once, in a fit of despondency, I even posted that this suggested that he didn't really love music nearly as much as he thought he did, though I did retract that later. You both know all of this, yet you post those silly questions anyway - we know you are not really serious about it. I won't post any more appeals on this thread for you to educate yourselves, but I will correct gross errors, such as the comment O-10 made that if someone is performing three times a week, he doesn't need to practice. I had a good long laugh over that one. If I didn't laugh, I would have to cry over the serious lack of knowledge you have for what you love so much, and the misperceptions and misunderstandings this causes, that could be so easily fixed if you just made a little effort. Meanwhile, I would be happy to talk about jazz, and learn about more great albums that I have never heard - I would love to relate much more about Julius Watkins, for instance, or other horn players in the jazz world, if anyone is really curious to know. If not, you can search for those albums I listed in my previous post if you want to hear him as a leader, though they are very hard to find - I have only heard about half of them ever, myself. I have really enjoyed this thread, and I keep coming back to it despite the silliness. |
Learsfool, I have had a number of musician friends, and none of them tried to educate me in music. Rok, wanted to know something about music and you answered his questions, that's good. FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, I DO NOT KNOW SQUAT ABOUT MUSIC, NOR DO I WANT TO KNOW SQUAT ABOUT MUSIC; IS THAT CLEAR, FROGMAN, LEARSFOOL, AND EVERYONE ELSE ON "AUDIOGON". |
Rok, Acman, Jafant, Alex, and any others who consider themselves "Jazz Aficionados", WSIE 88.7 FM, has an online play list. http://streaming.siue.edu:8001/whats_playing You can also hear it online. Awhile back, I complained their jazz menu was too "stereotypical", but they've changed and have more of a varied menu now; it's quite listenable. Enjoy the music. |
The more I hear her, the more I like her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcNE85-aD6s&index=14&list=RDMMtBt9DQJOO-4 Does the Violin and guitar play a very prominent role in French Jazz, or is it just my imagination. The legacy / influence of Grappelli / Django? Cheers |
Rok, the violin and guitar definitely play a large roll in French jazz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it_JlVlR8JQ |
Orpheus, I have several Dave Pike albums, and I think I can say that I like him. 'Pike's Peak' you have, with Bill Evans, I think that one deserves to be in any decent jazz collection. For Bossa Nova Carnival I can only say that on that album Pike plays with Kenny Burell and Clark Terry, to me its a very nice and subtle album, with gentle melodies. https://youtu.be/_30XmNMsKvY As for 'Manhattan Latin', I had it for years, did not listen it much, but couple weeks ago I had some guests at home and played it and to my surprise, it was great, so much that I checked again who plays there...Dave Burns on trumpet (mentioned him before as one of 'great underrated' with C.Corea, Don Friedman among ohers. Here is the clip...there are two sides, faster and more mellow...here are two clips https://youtu.be/ZTfHn8Fx_K4 https://youtu.be/ncBWglTCY7s 'Jazz for jazz set' is his album that I had first, very happy sounding album,nothing pretentious, I could imagine people having a party, listening to that groovy music... Again, with ocasional bursts of Clark Terry muted trumpet... .https://youtu.be/uEWZQvqN7Us https://youtu.be/IAsNJfhNagk 'Limbo Carnival' is with T.Flanagan, there are couple words that will tell you more under this clip... https://youtu.be/4fsxfmiFVDw https://youtu.be/4fsxfmiFVDw I am looking to buy one more his album, from that period. |
Speaking of french (now I read that he is Belgian, hope nobody will be offended) guitarists, Rene Thomas came to my mind. Here are couple of links of albums that I have, hope you will find it intersting. This one is with Stan Getz, its been said that was recorded as a one time meeting, from 1971.album 'Dynasty'.....here is the link /youtu.be/MWcRtztr35A One more album, this time Rene Thomas Quintet https://youtu.be/O35l1eeWKmk Another one, much earlier recorded, John Lewis with Sasha Distel on guitar,album is called 'Afternoon in Paris' https://youtu.be/9yufrYCYJNc |
Julius Watkins: Learsfool, I like his albums, but I am not sure how much playing French Horn adds to the effort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V208GIEE85Q Seems like you would get a similar sound / effect from trombone, and it's a lot more nimble. Cheers |
Alex, you're absolutely correct on that "Pike's Peak" album. Rok and I concurred that those other albums were real nice, just not outstanding. When you mentioned French and Belgium, that reminded me of Hercule Periot, the famous detective, who was always having to correct people that he was Belgium, and not French. It seems Rene Thomas is Belgium also. I really like that clip, I'll have to find and add it to my collection. I'm glad I can always come back to your post. That organ added a different touch that I liked. "Bags Groove" had two musicians that are new to me; Sacha Distel on guitar, and Barney Wilen on tenor sax, they both sounded good, and Kenny Clark on drums kept it altogether. You have a very nice collection. Thanks for the fine posts. Enjoy the music |
Rok, I've been comparing "Mary Lou Williams" to "Bird". Not to "Bird" personally but to his era and beyond. One of the reasons I'm doing this is because I was so late in discovering Mary Lou. Since she came from the swing era, I assumed her music would reflect that fact; Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Earl 'Fatha' Hines, and Duke Ellington. As famous as those people are, they are not my cup of tea; more my parents cup of tea. That's why I define music "Before Bird", and After Bird; BB and AB. "Bird" revolutionized jazz, and that's an undeniable fact. My point is that Mary Lou Williams was so advanced that her music is more akin to Birds music than to the swing era. Let's compare her "It ain't Necessarily So" with Miles take on the same tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug Although she came from the swing era, this is as hip as it gets. She's got just the right touch. Next the same tune by Miles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EgyUcHSSQ Before we discovered Mary Lou Williams, I thought Miles's was the hippest version of that tune, but now I'm not so sure. Any way you look at it, she was incredibly advanced, and I still can't figure why I'm so late in discovering her. Enjoy the music. |
Orpheous, check this Barney Wilen live album from 1959.Try to guess who is trumpet player, but before looking.... https://youtu.be/HQneEHGojKU From later years, with Mal Waldron... https://youtu.be/VSFCi4SGxl8 |
The best of Mary Lou Williams that I own. Solo Recital at Montreux 1978 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o4shDwmFI4 Live At The Cookery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61m3BNnhP0 All good. No Filler. Cheers |
Sorry to spoil the Mary Lou love fest, but I am still stuck on bassist, and this marvelous trio came to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zslbPNTWuO8 |
Courtesy of Newbee: Seems as if Newbee knows his Divas. LaVerne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AohP-y6zCPs Rene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10WyOp7r8W4 Mary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Mj4fCFp3o Thanks for the tips. Cheers |
I don't see "Live at the cookery" available. I'm going to get the DVD on Montreaux, that should have the same music. I've got "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me", no filler. Now I'm going to look at everything that's available to avoid duplication, sometime there is a lot of duplication when various CD's are available, I hate that. Enjoy the music. |
The whole record is improvisation! A startling recording to the open mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRys39wfwZQ |
Hi Rok - actually, the horn is quite a bit more "nimble" than the trombone. The trombone's slide makes it awkward to play things that are very fast, for instance. The horn has the advantage of the valves, like the trumpet. Even the tuba is technically more "nimble" than the trombone, again because of the valves. However, you are correct when you say that the basic tone of the trombone is more suited to jazz in general than the horn is. And in many jazz styles, the slide is an advantage. Although technically the tenor trombone's range is almost the same as the horn's, in actual practice the horn usually covers quite a bit larger range, and on a smaller mouthpiece, too. This is the reason the horn is considered the most difficult of the brass instruments, and one of the most difficult overall - we have to cover the largest range on the smallest mouthpiece, which means we are using less surface area, and therefore taxing the muscles of the embouchure more. Getting back to the horn in jazz, you normally see it in big bands, not as a solo instrument. I have occasionally performed with a big band, though mostly that was when I was still a student. There are often big band shows on our pops series, though, I would say at least a couple a season - in fact we have one coming up in a couple of weeks that is mostly the music of Louis Armstrong, I think. I have only given the music a glance so far, as we have a much harder (and brutal on the face) symphonic program to get through this coming week first. Though that Louis Armstrong show looks like it may be pretty brutal, too. Anyway, there have been a few famous jazz hornists over the years, and there are actually quite a few active right now, maybe more than there have ever been. |
Hi Acman - I just saw your post about your guess on O-10's friend, don't know why I missed it last night. An organist is a fascinating guess, as it would immediately provide a very good reason why O-10 would have never heard him practice in his apartment - he couldn't have if he was an organist! But my impression has been that O-10 is implying that his friend could have practiced in his apartment if he had wanted to. In fact, I even thought that O-10 once mentioned that his friend was a saxophonist, though apparently I am not remembering that right, and even the instrument is a mystery. I notice he hasn't had any comment on your guess. |
