Ok fellas. 2 albums
1. Roy Hargrove "Crisol"
2. Miguel zenon " alma aldenteo The Puerto Rican songbook"
tell me me what you think?
1. Roy Hargrove "Crisol"
2. Miguel zenon " alma aldenteo The Puerto Rican songbook"
tell me me what you think?
Jazz for aficionados
Rok, I'm hitting pay dirt with the "Byrd". I hope you're doing the same. I "only" choose music that I think is going to be good for a replay. We don't have to take chances like we did for them stinking LP's. Right now I've got stacks of them suckers that I don't know what to do with. My son says he knows what to do with them. I told him that was my legacy that I'm leaving to him; all of a sudden a sly grin broke out on his face. Enjoy the music. |
Somebody is always asking dumb questions as to why young people are not interested in "High End" audio. We meaning "audiophiles" are so self centered it's not even funny. They don't realize we're as extinct as those creatures in Jurassic Park; only old people with money to burn, and dummies like us, are buying the stuff, which is why they advertise stuff where price is no object. Just yesterday I managed to repair my Technics reel to reel; other wise it was going to bite the dust. That stuff costs a fortune to get repaired, and only geezers have any use for one; does that mean I'm a geezer; that wasn't suppose to happen to me. I'm sure AARP has found a new word for "Geezer", I notice they never use it. Enjoy the music. |
Well fellas you are right. One of my dealers recently died and had the greatest system I ever heard but in this world with the streaming and Bluetooth stuff it's not the thing for some folks. His system was crazy expensive. They don't listen the way we listen. He had a audio bucket list. Most people think we are nutty. |
Yo Rok, are you out there? I found 8 classic Albums Donald Byrd $6.52 used, must be something wrong with it, 8 cd's $16.00 new. Places and spaces, $9.00 new, $5 used; The Definitive Classic Blue note Collection, $17 new $10 used; Black Byrd $8 new, $5 used. You can check em out, and tell me what you think. |
When I checked out the Byrd stuff on Amazon, all sorts of wonderful stuff came up. Box sets by Morgan, Brown and Silver. All dirt cheap. But I have most of the single CDs. Byrd: '8 Classic CDs' does not contain 'A New Perspective' or 'Black Byrd'. And after reading all the reviews I sensed that the sound quality was just ok. At my stage of the game, no music trumps bad sound. The '8 classic' sets also have no notes or booklets. I hate that. '100 best jazz Tunes of the 1950's' remains the best value ever. Excellent sound, great tune selection, and notes / photos / booklet. 'The Complete Blue Note' seems to have better reviews as far as sound quality. After all, it is Blue Note. It does contain 'A New Perspective'. I think I might try it instead of the two single CDs. Cheers |
It seems as if the '8 classic', 'Complete Blue Note' and these sort of box sets will be the final resting place for the players of the 'Golden Age' of Jazz. Its the same with Classical Music. The best players, and the best performances ever played are dirt cheap, while the new noise, errrr I mean new music, costs $20 per CD. Go figure. Oh, to be just starting out on this journey. Cheers |
On page 112, near the bottom of the page there's a run down on Byrd that can help you decide. I selected "spaces and places" plus black byrd, and I'll have to give the rest of them a listen on "you tube". The 100 best has sound quality better than my original LP's. No music is better than music with lousy sound quality. That Blue Note edition is a good buy. Moving in this organized fashion, we wont leave anything behind that we should have bought. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I decided to post links to what's on page 112, to help us decide. Here's "House of The Rising Sun" from album "up With Donald Byrd" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oRJpv-SAb4 This Donald Byrd "Weasel" from the LP "Fancy Free". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_FeSOb-z8Q Here's "Black Jack" from album of the same name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSxY4OwV8vg Donald Byrd: "The Little Rasti" from Etheopian Knights" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4j96aEDAA Donald Byrd: "Where Are We Going" from the LP "Black Byrd" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTFFt8bimp4 Next we have "Wind Parade" from "spaces and places" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LKxEs0HewI This is The Blackbyrds with "Mysterious vibes" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbcPHhVUspA Cornbread Earl and me: "Wliford's gone" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqbVrm2Pejo This is "The 3 pieces" "Shortnin Bread" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pITBIoGm1hQ Now we can wheel and deal. Enjoy the music. |
Roy Hargrove: I think I lost 10 pounds just watching it. I loved it in spite of myself. Some familiar faces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5HSKRzNKzk&list=RDp5HSKRzNKzk#t=5 Sherman Irby on alto. He's with Wynton at JALC now. Featured on their Christmas CD. Chucho (the pulverizer) Valdes on piano. I wonder how many pianos does he go through in a year. You won't go to sleep on him. All in all, very entertaining high energy Jazz. I loved Hargrove's playing on the opening number. I noticed that mic was inside the bell of his trumpet. Wondered how that sounded to the audience. I was about to say, it's good to see young folks today playing Jazz, then I realized this was 20 years ago. Where does the time go? Where have I been? I never thought Hargrove was as big as he should / could have been. I always thought of him as the next Morgan. But, it could have been just the decline in the popularity of Jazz in general. He should have been at BN in the 50/60s. Thanks for the tip. Cheers |
Donald Byrd: 'Rising Sun' and 'Black jack' were good. This guy does seem to stray off the Jazz reservation quite often. 'Black jack' may have been one of his last Jazz efforts Since I don't buy CDs based on one or two tracks anymore, I think I'll stick with the complete BN CD. All his good stuff is there. I think he quit Jazz and went into Funk. Pulled a Miles on us. Thanks for the clips. Cheers |
A good attempt at a Donald Byrd retrospective recently. His most creative period was conspicuously given short shrift, imo. As Rok points out, he strayed off the jazz reservation quite often. Most of his work during his more "commercial" period doesn’t do it for me, and the stuff bordering on "disco" I find to be kinda lame and was considered at the time and by many hardcore jazz fans to be "selling out". I will leave the validity of that criticism to others as this was a crticism directed at many of the players that went in that direction (think CTI) and the period did produce some interesting projects. I do think that this thread’s "jazz police" is showing a kinder, gentler side 😌; a good thing, I think. What is interesting about that period of Byrd’s, as O-10 points out, is the apparent influence he had on Herbie Hancock; something that wasn’t clear to me previously. I do think that Herbie went on to do far more interesting and sophisticated things in the jazz/funk vein (Headhunters). For me, the very best work by Byrd was connected to his affiliation to the great Pepper Adams; and this work was squarely in a more traditional or straight-ahead bag; both as sideman and as leader: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HCPv54Js3ak https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKyMVrIvKfE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNk3qtzNM_s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23YPy-8o7c This last clip relates to Roy Hargrove. The best test of a jazz player’s mettle is the ballad or the slow blues; iow, music in which "high energy" can’t be used to hide behind and the player’s ability and creativity is laid bare. I like Hargrove and think he is a very good player. He has been discussed before and my contention has always been that his place in the pantheon is pretty much where it belongs; he is very good, but not of the caliber of a Donald Byrd. The second tune in the Hargrove video is a ballad and the contrast between what he and Byrd can do is, for me, pretty obvious. Even more obvious is how the young tenor player Sanchez sounds good when he plays fast and furious, but falls flat when he tries and play simple figures. Perhaps time and maturity will help. Byrd and "Stardust": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrypHFVq8A |
Donald Byrd: there is one cut that's an absolute must, and that's "Here Am I". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CewhwrPi044 Maybe you already have it. Speaking of Miles; a long time ago when Miles was still alive, I ran into someone who loved him like a brother, and I asked him if he had Miles latest, he looked me straight in the eyes and asked "Have you" I had to laugh because he knew what I thought about the electrifying new Miles. I don't think Byrd went as far off the reservation as Miles. Enjoy the music |
Frogman, glad you're back with a most concise post, plus I've posted something you were unaware of; that's a first. (no rib intended) Roy Hargrove: That is the most energized group I've ever seen; I think they had enough percussionists, those guys really propelled the music. Without a doubt, I will have to add Roy Hargrove to my shopping list. Enjoy the music. |
Byrd sounds superb on "Here Am I". Great cut and great composition. One of the things that should be mentioned is Byrd’s beautiful tone on the trumpet. He was a really great trumpet player from a technical standpoint whose tone didn’t get fuzzy when he played softly. I love the clarity of his tone with just the right amount (for me) of brightness. One gets the sense that he could play in the stratosphere if he wanted to (not all trumpet players can) but refused to resort to gimmicky playing and gratuitous "high energy". Because of this restraint in his playing I find some of his genre choices later in his career especially curious. |
After I got over the initial shock of Byrds changeover (it only took 20 years) I began to like some of his new music. Once I accepted the fact that it ain't jazz, I listened to it for what it is. While most of this new music is geared to someone much younger than me, I'm not so old that I done forgot what it's like to have wild hormones; that's what "Rock Creek Park" is about. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Another group that fell short of the expectations / hype of the Jazz movers and shakers.. Seems as if they only recorded four albums. I have these two. I think they went solo afterwards. I like them both. The Harper Brothers -- REMEMBRANCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrbb--xg3s The Harper Brothers -- ARTISTRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqbL6VWo4Q&list=PLmlILoFRlWlqs_q-QLUu7Vs6IvI8A_soT As Cannonball might say, Check it out. Cheers |
Harper Bros.: I liked "Remembrance" A LOT; really great composition and equally great playing. I liked "Artistry" less so. Great trumpet playing and I’m really impressed by this player. I frankly find him to be a more interesting player than Hargrove; but that composition ("Artistry") is a little weak, imo. I think the answer to the question of why these guys didn’t last is, for me, summarized by these two tunes: a bit inconsistent and, by way of example, how many times can he quote "A Night In Tunisia" in a single solo? I counted about half a dozen. Don’t be so friggin’ obvious! (Or, maybe he doesn’t dance as well as Hargrove ☺️) And this (minus the crack about dancing) is, I think, emblematic of the major problem: We can debate the validity of this kind of thinking till we’re blue in the face, but I am left with the question: Why? When we have so much classic and superior hard bop to listen to? I think this writer pretty much sums it up: Artist Biography by Scott Yanow +++One of the most hyped jazz groups of the late ’80s, the Harper Brothers (co-led by drummer Winard Harper and trumpeter Philip Harper) symbolized what was right and wrong about the "Young Lions" movement. The musicianship in this hard bop unit was excellent and the young players respected their elders, but strong originality was lacking (they were largely revisiting the past) and the Harper Brothers received an excess of publicity at the expense of more innovative players. Still, during its five years, the group produced four enjoyable bop albums for Verve, and its sidemen (altoist Justin Robinson, tenors Javon Jackson and Walter Blanding, pianists Stephen Scott and Kevin Hays, and bassists Michael Bowie and Nedra Wheeler, among them) all had strong starts to their career. Both Winard and Philip Harper have grown musically since the band’s breakup.+++ Speaking of Hargrove (again): Watched to the "Crisol" video again and confirmed my initial reaction re the soloists. I find Sherman Irby to be the best soloist in that band and confirms why Wynton snatched him up. Very "in the pocket" playing and I love his use of space (silence) in his solos. He doesn’t feel the need to fill up every second with lots of notes and practiced licks and there’s a sense that he is really "developing" a solo . Great player! |
Still worth keeping up with… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTkzT1UmaT0 I read he works with young musicians now, like Blakey did. Always worth a listen. |
Maybe Donald Byrd said all he had to say in the jazz idiom. The Harpers were just OK, and that's because anything less than outstanding, sounds just OK. After listening to jazz all my life, I'm only impressed by something that's outstanding. Although Donald Byrd produced many outstanding pieces of work over the years in jazz, he felt it was time to change grooves, and while I didn't agree with him at the time, now I understand his motivation and point of view a lot better. As a listener, I feel the need to change grooves from time to time, maybe that's why I can tread lightly into Donald's new groove. Horace Silver is someone who withstood the test of time and never changed grooves completely; his music stayed somewhere in the broad jazz arena, while borrowing from other cultures from time to time; this is what kept his music fresh. With the approval of the rest of the aficionados, I would like to move on to Horace Silver after we have finished with Donald Byrd. Enjoy the music. |
"In the pocket" is an expression used by musicians to describe a player who has a particularly good sense of rhythm; who plays very deep in the groove; this is independent of musical genre. There is good sense of rhythm and then there is GOOD SENSE OF RHYTHM. Sometimes it is a stylistic choice to play around the time, and other times it's just a less developed sense of time which causes a player to sound like he is rushing (too far ahead of the beat) or dragging (too far behind the beat). If you think of a metronome's clicking as being "perfect" rhythm, there is a certain degree of latitude on either side of the beat that would be considered acceptable and part of a player's musical personality. Some musicians have the ability to play/sing with metronomic precision and still make it FEEL good and not sound like a machine. Satchmo had it, Ray Charles, Miles, Sonny Rollins and others. Examples of players who tended to play on the front side of the beat would be Cannonball, Trane. A great example of a player who tended to play on the back side of the beat would be Dexter Gordon. Best example of "in the pocket" that I can think of would be James Brown. Imo. |
Antonio Hart -- Harper Brothers -- Roy Hargrove -- DD Jackson -- Javon Jackson -- James Carter, and others of their time. A lot of promise. A strange time in Jazz. D.D. Jackson -- PAIRED DOWN vol one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7b0Hl0ZJU It's ok to laugh. I did. Love it. Who is Hugh Ragin, and why have I not heard of him? Cheers |
Frogman, you're a musician, I've been to a number of jazz sets with musicians, that's because they always made the major sets. This was at a time when we sat at tables, as opposed to seats in an arena, and I always seemed to be seated at a table with a musician. Yall hear differently; when I got lost, the musician would tell me what was going on, but it was like water off a ducks back; nothing's changed; "Behind the beat, in front of the beat" doesn't seem to make any difference to me. Someone said Art Blakey was always behind the beat; behind the beat, in front of the beat; whatever, I like Art Blakey. Although it's good to know such things if you're a musician. Enjoy the music. |
It's amazing how we think of artists who play flute and sax; for reasons unknown to me, I think of Frank Wes, flute; Bud Shank, flute; Yusef Lateef, flutes of every description. Maybe it's the compositions they play the different instruments in because I can't say I favor one instrument over another, although Frank Wess was beautiful on lush life. Enjoy the music. |
****Although it’s good to know such things if you’re a musician.**** Actually, it’s also good to know these things if you’re just a listener; which is why I bothered making the comment. You may choose to be the kind of listener who doesn’t care about knowing these things and continue to, as you yourself just admitted, "get lost", and that’s perfectly fine. Or, you can choose to not be so dismissive of a little bit of knowledge and become a more astute listener. I assure you that there are many listeners who are not musicians who don’t "get lost" so easily or need musicians to tell them "what’s going on". Now, you can choose to get indignant and we can, once again, get into some bullshit sparring; or, you can choose to be a little more gracious about a simple and well intended offer of a little knowledge related to a question asked by someone else (Rok) who apparently is interested in a bit of knowledge ("in the pocket"?). Your choice. Btw, you probably think of Frank Wess as being a flute player because he was one of the very first to play and record jazz on the flute; firstly as a member of Count Basie’s orchestra. However, he was first and foremost a tenor player; and a great one at that. Great clip; thanks Acman3. |
Frogman, Trane lost me in 63, and I'm still lost when he goes into zones known only by him. As I recall McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones were also lost, and if he could lose them, who am I? No I'm not indignant, but apparently you are. Whether or not I soak up your bits of knowledge, I still appreciate them for those who feel they're being enlightened, and in the future I will refrain from commenting on them. Not that it matters, but my selections are made on a purely subjective basis. No one can fathom the human mind; doctors may know about the brain, but the brain is only a storage place for the mind, and I choose to let this infinite computer tell me what I like and don't like; that's what "subjective" thinking is all about. Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it". The next artist I'm going to investigate is Horace Silver. Do to the fact that we didn't have computers, or "you tube" I can easily see how we bypassed music that would have been very important to our collections; I've added three albums by Byrd, when I Thought I had everything by him worth having. Who knows how many I'll add by Horace Silver after we investigate his music. Did you like the way we investigated Donald Byrd's music? Enjoy the music. |
Along time ago, someone not even on this thread, mentioned that Blakey played behind the beat, and I mentioned it with no thought of Frogman. The real question is why does Frogman always make mountains out of mole hills and think everything I utter pertains to him personally, and why did Frogman go on and on; he does that each and every opportunity he can find. He wrote three long paragraphs about "Behind the beat or in front of the beat". Not only that but he totally misinterpreted what was about nothing, without even a thought of him in mind. |
I read about "modal music" in the 60's, and I still don't know or care what it is. I realize there are people who do care, and that's good, but I don't, now hang me or shoot me. "Behind the beat or in front of the beat" pertained to a statement about Blakey, and had nothing to do with Frogman. Now that I've written all these posts, I'm sure you can find something else to go on and on about; remember "my friend", the musician who didn't practice; how long did that go on? |
O-10, I have a nice glass of Cabernet in my hand so I am feeling patient. I will give it a shot: I have no interest in anyone’s (including your) acknowledgment of my "wisdom"; I don’t think of it that way, and I don’t operate that way. The issue, and something that you seem incapable of understanding, is that it is downright annoying (at best) and disrespectful (at worst) when you come chiming in and basically say that, since I was not addressing musicians, my comment was worthless to participants in this thread; especially when the comment was in response to someone else’s query, not yours. Please don’t misunderstand; when I say "disrespectful" it is not that I feel I deserve any particular respect for any other reason than what can be expected in any reasonable human, and adult, interaction. I make no mountains out of molehills. This claim is, however, your pattern. You make a blanket statement that is dismissive of a comment that is intended as an honest contribution and then when there is a reaction you make your claims. Anyway, I could go on, but as I write this it becomes more and more clear that it is not surprising, and actually quite fitting, that someone who has no interest in knowledge should be so blind to the truth of what happens in basic "social" interaction. ****and think everything I utter pertains to him personally, **** Don’t flatter yourself; that is the last thing I am interested in. However, it would be nice if you got your facts straight. ****He wrote three long paragraphs about "Behind the beat or in front of the beat". **** Really? I believe it was one; and not directed at you. But it begs the question: why does it bother you that there is much to say about rhythm? I thought you were a music "aficionado"? Enough of of that nonsense; Blakey: I have news for you. It was, in fact, I who made the comment about Blakey’s rhythm; however, as is typical, you misconstrue what the comment was really about. Go back and search our "archives", and you will find that my comment was that I found Blakey to play with a somewhat "lazy" time feel and that I generally prefer a drummer with a more "incisive" rhythmic sense. You reacted very strongly to this comment and since Blakey is one of your musical heroes, you seemed to feel that not only was my comment incorrect, but you seemed almost offended by it. Now, let me ask you: should not a person like yourself who puts so much stock in subjective opinion respect what was, simply, my subjective opinion about Blakey? I, in no way, claimed that he wasn’t a good drummer, but simply that I preferred a different style of drumming. Btw, that discussion was in the context of a debate about the relative merits of Miles’ "KOB" vs Cannonball’s "Somethin Else"; if you care. Time for another glass. 🍷 Cheers! |
****Is this the "I feel good" James Brown?**** Damn right! You beat me to the punch with that clip. Killing! and totally in the pocket; as always. DD Jackson: Fabulous! Loved it and one that I will have to get. James Carter sounds amazing; this is one time when his exuberance as a player sounds completely appropriate and not bordering on "over the top". Thanks for the clip and the introduction. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsVyPAVBzRQ |
D.D. Jackson (again): Some musicians march to a different drummer (no pun intended); and this guy definitely does. I haven't quite gotten a handle on this guy, but he has something going on; I'm just not sure what it is yet. Love the humor in his playing and somehow reminds me of some of Zappa's work. Thanks again for the introduction. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DlOlbi1Co20 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL0pQGXGT8y0PkIN-JLEteYAbZdDi0j-gs¶ms=EAEYATgBSAFYFWILcUhDe... |
Great DD Jackson Clips. It's so compelling, it just grabs you and takes you along. Since this was next on my shelf: Willis Jackson -- BAR WARS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrGgAXTbkMA Jackson and Pat Martino often record together. Who'd a thunk it? Cheers |
I am not familiar with DD Jackson, but read one of his mentors was Don Pullen. One of the most individual players I know of. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvbqxgxSs8U |
Don Pullen: Not my favorite player by any means, but I do like him more now than I used to. I have three by Pullen, but I am partial to this one: Don Pullen -- KELE MOU BANA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cAuAfKqvZc Cheers |
Today's Listen: Roy Hargrove -- WITH THE TENORS OF OUR TIME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y8PZkqJTIE&list=PLLhORrvwD4q8PiN2bIn5cbuaHiomigktt&index=1 Much Better. You could say he rose to the level of the Tenors. Cheers |
Although I've been on Audiogon for years, I'm just seeing this thread. I'm in my 50's now, and I started in my teens with Miles and Coltrane. Most of my jazz listening came from collecting the 7000 or so LP's now in my collection. I see the first review in this thread is Blakey's Moanin, Its a fine record, and between the early 50's to the mid 60's I'd say that there were many hundreds, if not thousands, that are at least as good. Many of these are well-known, but many came out on tiny and/or obscure labels. In the 60's the hotseat for jazz creativity moved to Europe, and many of those records were pressed in tiny quantities that until recently were seldom heard outside of their native countries. The sheer quantity of top notch jazz during this period is beyond compare. I wonder if there was something special in the water during the 1920s, when many of the jazz masters of the 50s and 60s were born. There's really no way to have a 'best of', when there were so many masters making incredible statements. |
Frogman, maybe this was when when you were "Shadorne" on 08-17-2011. Like I said Frogman, you think everything I utter is about you; you even lay claim to things you didn't say in regard to Blakey's drumming. shadorne 5,291 posts 08-17-2011 10:53pm Art plays in front of the beat. He gives it an energetic sound but I can understand Foster_9's view. Many find that the pocket lies slightly behind the beat. In contrast, playing behind the beat gives a more relaxed feel. Some drummers can play both styles with ease and move around in order to create tension and release in the music. Think Elvin Jones. shadorne Enjoy the music. |