Jazz for aficionados

Some music is closer to our African Log Beater than other music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAEcbNzLXiM&index=12&list=RD_tKIPuLfeKg

*****I think. That's what makes much of his music so humable.*****

I agree.  Being to able to hum, and the desire to hum, is a sure indication of music that has reached people.

I don't think folks hum Stravinsky. :)

Cheers  

Mary Lou Williams:

Mary Lou is as great today as she was yesterday.  I think you have been smitten. :)

Cheers

I'm sure there are plenty of recordings of African drum beating, but if you have have a penchant for vinyl recordings seek out "Professor Johnson's Amazing Sound Show" on Reference Recordings I believe. It has some 'amazing' displays of solo African Drumming'. Turn up the volume, bring down the house! Love it.  This is really exciting, primitive, stuff , especially for us knuckle draggers.

****The most interesting thing about this music is that the composer considered it Jazz. This begs the question, where did he get his concept of Jazz? Not from Pops I would wager. This says a lot about what we talk about often on this thread i.e. "what is, and what is not Jazz.

I am absolutely sure, that as far as he was concerned, the music qualified as Jazz by some definition to which he had been exposed / taught .****

You would, of course, be incorrect about this; and the reason I bother responding to this is that there is much truly interesting stuff that would be overlooked and misinformed if there were no response.  There is a gulf of difference between being influenced by, having elements of, and "considering it jazz".  Dig deeper and read about the influence of jazz on Classical composers (Shostakovich, Milhaud, Copland, Stravinsky, Ravel and others) at the beginning of 20th Century and you will see that an absolutist and protectionist attitude does not apply.  These composers had no illusion that their music was jazz, but used elements of it in their music; and did this, if anything, as an homage to the "new" art form.  This goes to the issues being discussed here recently and which are not understood: how does a music come about?, the evolution of the music, influences on styles, etc.  Very little of this happens in a vacuum.  My earlier comment in response to yours about how Classical composers "steal" from jazz  was to point out that there would be no jazz as we know it today were it not for the harmonic concepts of the European Classical music tradition.  I know some will bristle at this notion; but it is absolutely true.  Again, nothing happens in a vacuum; and, as always, one has to have a notion about what harmony is all about and its role in jazz to appreciate this idea.  To say "we are not talking about harmonic concepts, we are talking about jazz" is like saying we are not talking about food, we are talking about gumbo.  Btw, one could point to as many 20th Century jazz composers who "stole" from Classical composers as the other way around.  Which brings me to this:

I point this out, not to personalize matters, but because if explains (to me) where some of these notions (and ultimate disagreements) come from.  I always find your choice of words very telling: you refer to this interactive relationship between genres and composers as "stealing", or that the accurate observation that jazz composers studied the work of Classical composers as "wishfull thinking".  The composers themselves (any genre) did not hold these attitudes and were much more inclusive.  These composers (any genre) were/are musical giants with giant intellects and to suggest that they did not have a more fair and evenhanded grasp of all this is ridiculous. 

Some fun and interesting reading:

http://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/2004/01/great-encounters-1-when-charlie-parker-played-for-igor-stra...

http://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2013/05/26/186486269/why-jazz-musicians-love-the-rite-o...

He was one of the acknowledged greats on the alto saxophone. Unfortunately, Phil Woods was hugely unrecognized as a composer and arranger. This is a gem of a record in a genre not talked about much here, the "small big band"; or, octet in this case. One of my favorite small ensemble records, the title is a play on Stravinsky’s "Rite Of Spring". It features many of the names mentioned here including Julius Watkins on French Horn playing a very nimble (😉 ) solo.  Those familiar with Stravinsky’s work will recognize his quote @ 3:55.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL55774CEA75D0E052&v=Lt61t0Hnt0w

And Benny Bailey, one of the truly unsung heroes of the trumpet:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL55774CEA75D0E052&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILOF9JTG44R0RWdHNoAA%25...

"Music is found in every known culture, past and present, varying widely between times and places. Since all people of the world, including the most isolated tribal groups, have a form of music, it may be concluded that music is likely to have been present in the ancestral population prior to the dispersal of humans around the world. Consequently, music may have been in existence for at least 55,000 years and the first music may have been invented in Africa and then evolved to become a fundamental constituent of human life."

So we can say that there would be no Jazz and also no "European Classical Tradition" without our log beater in Africa.   I will agree that Jazz is a eventual result of the first human attempt to make music.   That would be about 55,000 years ago.   I think that predates Europe, let along the "European Classical Tradition".  Nice try.


***** Unfortunately, Phil Woods was hugely unrecognized as a composer and arranger. *****

"If they are unknown, not respected or ignored, it's for a very good reason"
The Frogman's First Law of Musicians.

Cheers

 

***** To say "we are not talking about harmonic concepts, we are talking about jazz" is like saying we are not talking about food, we are talking about gumbo****

No, it means we are talking about the finished or final product.  

Cheers

Rok, I realize that this stuff is very difficult for you to grasp, but there existed a European Classical music tradition long before any European set foot on African soil.  It can be said, however, that there also would be no jazz without your log beaters; but, you already told us way back that you don't believe that.  Try for some consistency; please.  As far as Phil goes, as I pointed out to O-10 (I think) recently my words were: "there is USUALLY a reason why........".  Now, let's keep things interesting and relevant: I just posted two clips of Phil's writing.  Tell us in a way that is informative, why you don't think it is at the highest level of writing and arranging. 

We always knew The Frogman was an excellent Jazz and Classical musician.   We can now add Tap-Dancing to his skill set.

The more I read his response / posts, the more I have to turn to The Book of Job for the strength and inspiration to carry on.

Cheers

*****  but there existed a European Classical music tradition long before any European set foot on African soil.  *****

Go back and re-read the article.  You missed the historical time it was speaking of.

Cheers

Rok, FWIW I can hum Stravinski. :-)
If you care to hear something less heard by his occasional listeners who only know him from his to  Ballets, pick up 'Shadow Dances' by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra Orchestra on DG. His Tango in cut 1 is (for me anyway) worth the price of the disc. Enjoy....

BTW, where/when do you think Jazz, as we know it, diverged from the music of Africa (which became music of the "European Classical Tradition").
When did the music of the Far East diverge from the music  of Africa. Or did it split off the music that became the music of European countries. Is there an Asian Jazz?

 Did the music of the countries of Europe split off music we now know as 'European Jazz' or did Jazz in Europe evolve from the Jazz which developed in the Americas'.

 Almost a racial thing isn't it, we can speculate that Africans were black, that caucasians became white from lack of sun in the North where they migrated, but what I can never figure out is why Asians developed their unique eyes. It's a puzzlement (quasi quote from Fair Lady, I think). Pretty shallow thinking isn't it.

Interesting questions, Newbee.  Pretty well established that "European Jazz" owes mostly to American Jazz.  Of course, with its own European flavor throw in; much to the dismay of some purists.  

"Shadow Dances": As you say, great Grammy nominated record on DG.  As a self-serving note; I play saxophone on it.

I googled Stravinsky to try and figure out his standing among Classical composers.   When the   'BEST' were listed, he didn't make the list (best 10 or 15), but when the 'Most Famous'  were listed, there he was.  Hmmmmm   there is that 20th century hype machine at work.

Cheers

***** Rok, FWIW I can hum Stravinski. :-)*****

AAUGH!!!!

Funny, I search "Best Classical Composers" (not that I needed to) and he comes up in just about every list; and in the top 10-15 every time. Hmmmm, indeed.

Jeez, if I had known about the Grammy Award first I'd probably never have listened to it, let alone recommended it. :-) 

 But I'm glad I did. Are you a regular member of this group? I think I have most of their recordings which I highly value BTW.
 
Rok, just in case you want to pass on my recommendation because you don't want to hear Frogman blow his (own) horn, you can listen to Tango on a solo piano in a disc of 'Dances' by Kathryn Stott on Chandos. 

Newbee, I'm what you might call a "regular extra"; saxophone not being a regular instrument in an orchestra, although I have played and recorded on bass clarinet with them as well.  Sorry, moment of weakness; I think I can safely say I don't blow my own horn too often this way ☺️.  Fantastic orchestra and fantastic concept; conductor-less orchestra.

http://www.thetoptens.com/greatest-classical-composers/

http://www.progressfocused.com/2012/12/top-10-greatest-classical-composers-ever.html

http://listverse.com/2009/12/17/top-15-greatest-composers-of-all-time/

Apology accepted.

Cheers

Dude, now you’re really getting silly. First of all, there he is on your own first list at #15; although I (and many others) would place him higher. You’re cherry picking your lists and not accounting for the subjective nature of this silly exercise. He is clearly on most lists of best, greatest, most influential, etc. "Best"? We’ve been down that road before; no? So, by your approach there would be the "best" 10-15 jazz players or composers and everyone else is bogus? C’mon! Still waiting for your informative thoughts re Phil’s arranging skills. As the Count used to say, "One more once!": just because anyone person (you) can’t understand the music does not make it less great in the scheme of things. I know, I know,the great unwashed and all that nonsense 😊

Amazing music and incredible performance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZkIAVGlfWk

Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it.

Frogman, can you say "stereotypical", that was the sound of Phil Woods jazz. Did he do anything that was unique? He did his best to imitate "Bird", but so did a lot of other people; that was his claim to fame.

Newbee, are we talking about anthropology or music?


Where is Learsfool? That's all we need to complete the 'wackery'.



Enjoy the music.

Sigh!

Hi O-10,

I'm talking about both.  How about we just call it 'musical anthropology', FWIW this is a a' defined' phrase. I guess you didn't know of its existence.

Personally,  I can't begin to understand how you can separate the two words when that is exactly what you have been talking about, i.e. the history/developement of jazz.   Though I must admit that I have thought myopia attractive at stressful times in my life. KTSS.

Like all people, musicians have been affected by the political, economic and social events of 20th century.The technological adavnces as well have brought music to larger audience than ever before, besides vastly increasing the range of music available. Can you just imagine the repertoary of recorded music, in oppose to past where one could here only live performed music? As early of 1904 music works have been recorded and radio broadcasts of live or recorded music began to reach large audience during the 1920s.
 Everything is conected,and there are so many influences to music, and jazz is not an exception. I dont know why that sound so strange to you, Rok and Orpheus?
 For example, if the events around WW2 did not make the largest migration of artists and intellectuals in history, from Europe to US, do you think that American musical culture would be the same today? After all, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Hindemith all went to States, later two taught in universities there.
 What about African American composers and performers?  William Grant Still and his 'Afro American Symphony' ( from 1931) was the first composition by black composer to be performed by major American symphony orchestra. Its been said that he incorporated spirituals, ragtime and blues in his work. Is he the only one, that was influenced by many things? I doubt. Here is the link. 

https://youtu.be/4AkltZeVcJE

***** Amazing music and incredible performance:*****

Just because you say it, don't make it so.  I know that may be hard for you to grasp.


***** You’re cherry picking your lists and not accounting for the subjective nature of this silly exercise*****

I just clicked on the first three lists.  Why would I cherry pick something, if I am seeking information for myself? 

Any list may be subjective, even yours.  Unless you know of a list that was handed down on Mt Sinai.

Cheers

Alex:
*****  Everything is conected,and there are so many influences to music, and jazz is not an exception. I dont know why that sound so strange to you, Rok and Orpheus?
 For example, if the events around WW2 did not make the largest migration of artists and intellectuals in history, from Europe to US, do you think that American musical culture would be the same today? After all, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Hindemith all went to States, later two taught in universities there.*****

If would be helpful if you would read my posts, and not respond to the straw-men arguments thrown out by The Frogman.   I am quite capable of saying what I mean.   I have said that all music is a great continuation starting with prehistoric humans.

We just don't buy into the school of thought,  that the "European Classical Tradition" is the end all, be all, of human music.  It was not Alpha and it sure as hell won't be Omega.   Just a bump along the journey.

World War ll:

German and European Classical Music Culture seems to have fared just great since the war.   And are you are saying we would not have had folks like: Stravinsky, Bartok,Schoenberg and Hindemith but for the war?   If so, we suffered more than I thought as a result of that Damn EUROPEAN war.

Cheers

***** Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it.*****

O-10,  I don't even know why you bother.  They are so arrogant.   They will never understand, why do you waste your time, etc.........

hahahah   sound familiar?

Cheers

Frogman, jazz can not be properly defined; if something can not be properly defined, how can it be objective?

Many jazzmen have objected to the word "Jazz". As far as I am concerned, it only defines the music up until the 70's. Some want to argue whether or not Pat Metheney is a jazz musician, I don't because I like much of his music whatever you call it.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUAK02_o9cI

I like this music regardless what you call it. I find "stereotypical" jazz boring.

No I'm not defining jazz, I'm defining me, as you should define you.



Enjoy the music.

Rok, for better or worse, I read your posts. ' So we can say that there would be no Jazz and also no "European Classical Tradition" without our log beater in Africa.   I will agree that Jazz is a eventual result of the first human attempt to make music.   That would be about 55,000 years ago.   I think that predates Europe, let along the "European Classical Tradition". 
If I may ask, does this mean that you think that jazz has no influence from Classical music ?
Or do you mean that had other important influences as well?

****We just don’t buy into the school of thought, that the "European Classical Tradition" is the end all, be all, of human music. It was not Alpha and it sure as hell won’t be Omega.****

Kindly explain who and when, on this thread, made such a comment? Talk about strawman arguments.

****Just because you say it, don’t make it so. I know that may be hard for you to grasp****

You’re absolutely correct! Except for the "hard to grasp" part. You see, I base my comments on my perceptions and the opinion of individuals who can put me under the table and shame me with the depth of their knowledge about musical matters. They are out there and I welcome those individuals into my sphere of knowledge.

O-10, no way! I’m not touching that one again. Besides what does that have to do with what is being discussed now? I think your "cut/paste" function on your pc may be stuck. I seem to have read that exact comment a few times before; Metheny and all.

Now, c’mon you guys, is it really that hard to see how silly all this is. If it weren’t for the hipocracy of it all it would be kinda funny. Let’s try to do better and uplift this thread. The music deserves it.

The Frogman as usual is correct.   My view is:

This is some of what we need to know, and I am too lazy to try and discover  the answers

What preceded "The European Classical Tradition" in Europe?  Where did it come from.  

Do / did all human cultures, at their most primitive,  create indigenous music?   Think, the aborigines in Australia and the recently found tribes in the Amazon region.   Did they make music?

Should we separate the structure of music, from the artistic part of music, when speaking of influence?

Time for The Frogman to strut his stuff.

Cheers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWocYPGxX74

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eaTmoPmJPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imo1kQME8K4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL-CVV616nI#t=21

I heard this live;



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9SVGZGaGdA


Although there is all kind of distortion, can you hear beyond the distortion; this is jazz musicians just jammin, all improvisation.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8z0u9oS9Zc


These are St. Louis musicians playing for the joy of making music in 1960. I hate these cuts are so short. Late night when they were live, they went from one idea into another, the way improvising musicians play, and 15 minutes was typical. Compare what you have on record, to Horace Silver live, and note the time difference. The organ or the guitar took the music in a different direction, and it was like follow the leader; this is what improvising is all about, no written music.

No amount of practice will enable you to improvise like the top jazz musicians we've discussed, and Frogman knows it; either you got it or you don't.

They used the word "practice" as if I'm saying these musicians never practiced; evidently they think I'm a "MOW-RON". How many times have Learsfool and Frogman inferred that?

Grant Green would come into his favorite lounge, lean up against the jukebox, and just start playing, of course no body said anything or minded. After he finished, he would have a drink and leave. He was lean with a thick head of hair, and a build like a cowboy. When this baldheaded dude who was slightly overweight came up to me, I didn't know who he was. Time brings about a change. While there was a change in his looks, his playing just got better and better; he never evolved to some unrecognizable music that he called jazz.

To me, this music is living and breathing, it's a part of me.



Enjoy the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywXjQK9V68#t=31

Frogman, precisely what is being discussed? The conversation I see is bouncing around like a pin ball in a pin ball machine. Why don't you specify a conversation with defined parameters and we'll discuss that.

Acman3, well done!  And in more ways than one; I believe you know what I mean but that.  Fantastic posts and excellent example of contrasting styles of jazz piano +2.  If your series of clips do not dispel any doubt about the influence of Classical composers on jazz players, I dont know what would.  Art Tatum's take on D'vorak's "Humoresque", Bud Powell who also recorded "Bud On Bach", John Lewis' "Abstractions",  and Mingus' "Epitaph" which owes so much to Charles Ives; all great.  For substance and timeliness, I nominate your series of posts as a contender for "best" post of this thread.  Wait!....too dangerous; "best" has never taken us anywhere positive.  Still, well done!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVk9xFLHAWY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viVQEYVsCC4

And each and every clip a Jazz Classic.   
If those clips prove anything, it's that Jazz and Classical are not compatible.  Of course MJQ proved that eons ago.  They gave up.

Cheers

Frogman, would you care to explain why and how, Mingus's "Epitaph" owes so much to Charles Ives?

Hi guys - Rok has provided over the last day or so a perfect example of what I was talking about with O-10....sigh, indeed.   Frogman, this is reminding me of a certain John Cleese video from about a year ago.    

O-10, I generally visit this site once a day, usually late in the evening after I get home from work.  Sometimes two or three days will go by, but I have been an avid follower of everything on this thread even when not posting.  The reason I hadn't responded to all these posts today is that I hadn't seen them until late this evening.  All I have to say about this:  "Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it." is that I think it is abundantly clear from all of the posts from others on this thread is that it is you and Rok that will not ever get it.  Like I said, I will give up on my appeals for you guys to actually study music a little, but I will not stop correcting things that are just flat out wrong.   

Though I will add in response to Rok's post that there are plenty of great music history books out there that will answer all of his questions.  There is a very popular one by Joseph Kerman called Listen, that comes with a big record set, though it is probably on CDs nowadays.  It is a very basic overview of the entire history of music all the way up to jazz and the Beatles, and may have had subsequent updates from when it was my Intro to Music Lit text my freshman year, in the mid 80s.  Very readable, with great musical examples.  

The only specific I will answer here is that I do not see how one can truly separate the structure of music from the artistic part of it -  form is part of the artistry, part of the craft.  This is true, by the way, of improvising as well - improvisation must have structure to be understandable.  Something that must be PRACTICED.  :)  

O-10 and Rok, perhaps it has not been obvious to you or to anyone else but me,  but I believe I have proven my willingness to, in spite of all the disagreement and nonsense, to try and be amicable and, at least, try to keep these discussions on a positive track.  I have even suggested some guidelines for what I feel is more positive and less contentious interaction.  Most of these efforts have been met with, at best, negative reaction and, at worst, ridicule.  O-10, no one thinks or has suggested that you are a moron, but you continue to interact in a way that is provocative and simply not very nice nor inclusive.  What is being discussed is obvious to me and, I think, others here.  So, if you want to take the discussions in a certain direction I suggest that you simply do so and try to keep the negative innuendo out of it.

Rok, we have been here before.  I have no need nor desire to "strut my stuff".  I would prefer to share and interact in discussions about music and discuss topics as they come up.  What you ask in your most recent post can be mostly answered by simply going back over previous discussions and doing simple internet searches and perhaps reconsidering your reaction to much of what was presented to you.  I am not about to make up for your "laziness" when previous efforts were dismissed and/or ridiculed.  Moreover, I don't believe the problem is any laziness on your part, but that of a very rigid and self-serving attitude about much of what we try to discuss.  This reaction on my part is not due to spite or anger, but simply the believe that the only way to have a chance at a real change in how we interact here is by frankness and then let the chips fall where they may.  You ask some interesting questions and, as I said, the answers are easily found in the readily available reading on the net.  Your last question is particularly interesting and I will take a stab at it when I have some time next.

****Should we separate the structure of music, from the artistic part of music, when speaking of influence?****

As I have said more times than I can remember: I hope we can do better going forward.

I get it, if there had not been any classical music, there would be no jazz. Jazz musicians who did not study classical music should be discounted. All jazz musicians studied classical music before they become jazz musicians. That's why Miles left Juilliard. Are all or any of the above correct?

O-10, how much Charles Ives have you listened to?  Until you have, any answer to your question will be meaningless.

Signing off now; I have a 6:15 AM spinning class to make.  

I actually consider Charles Ives to be the quintessential American composer.  He wrote quite a lot of music - hundreds of songs, a very famous piano sonata called the Concord Sonata, and many pieces for orchestra.  A very short and popular piece for orchestra by Ives is called the Unanswered Question - that might be a good place to start.  One of his largest scale works is his 4th Symphony.  

By the way, Frogman, my father transcribed his violin sonata for clarinet.

Learsfool, you are cleverly evading my statement, consequently I have to repeat it; "You will never be able to improvise like the jazz musicians we have discussed, no matter how much you practice, or how many schools you go to".  Your statement was that you have to practice in order to improvise.  You have to practice in order to play "Jingle Bells" properly.   

Have we concluded the practicing and improvising?

Frogman, I never heard of Charles Ives before you mentioned him.  Did he jam at Mintons?