This what I am trying to say. After this, I'm moving on.
Ford Motor company invents the assembly line method of auto production. A truly great innovation. Changes manufacturing around the globe. Cars are still produced this way today. Ford still does it, as does makers like BMW, and Rolls Royce.
The question is, although we agree Ford changed, influenced, the way cars are made. But, what do current Rolls Royce cars, and BMW cars, have in common with Ford Fusions. Where is the FORD influence in a Rolls Royce automobile?
People around the world paint by smashing plants to create some sort of dye, and they then use their fingers to paint or draw on cave walls or rocks or trees. Some guy, "Mr Jones", one day invents canvas, paint and brushes. His invention spreads around the world at light speed. Everyone is using Canvas, paint and brushes.
Question: Has Mr Jones influenced art? He certainly has influenced the tools they use to paint. But, has he influence WHAT artist around the world paint? Can you say that the Mona Lisa was influenced by Mr Jones?
Are we confusing tools and methods, with the talent and creativity to use those tools?
In my opinion, The European Classical Tradition is represented by Ford and "Mr Jones." Rolls Royce and The Mona Lisa , represent folks like Mingus and Ellington.
That's as clear as I can state my position. Time to move on.
Cheers |
Rok, those two Sam Lazar links are very important; using your Harvey, Sam Stewart analogy, that was as close to any music I could find that Harvey was playing that Summer. Listen as well as you can through the distortion.
Sam Lazar was like a shooting star; he burned brighter than any of the other stars for a minute or two, and then went out. Fortunately, he played many local clubs, and I caught him as much as I could.
Sam Lazar was an American pianist and Hammond organist originally from St. Louis, Missouri. A mysterious figure who disappeared from the music scene in the early 1960s He is best known for fronting a group that included early work from guitarist Grant Green. His first LP on Argo Records approximates his birth year as 1933. Initially a pianist, Lazar played in Ernie Wilkins group before Wilkins left St. Louis to join Count Basie. This was followed by a stint in George Hudson's big band which also included Clark Terry and Jimmy Forrest at various times. After a tour with alto saxophonist Tab Smith.
In 1958, Lazar saw the Jimmy Smith trio at the Peacock Alley club in St. Louis and was inspired to play the Hammond organ. His St. Louis-based organ combo later included guitarists Grant Green, Joe Diorio, George Eskridge, drummer Chauncey Williams and saxophonist Miller Brisker among others. Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, but they were reportedly one of the first interracial combos in the area.
Lazar recorded a single on Cawthron Records, and then went on to make several albums in the 1960s for the Chicago-based Argo Records. His first, Space Flight, was recorded in 1960 and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo featuring Williams and fellow St. Louis musician Grant Green.
He disappeared from the music scene in the early 60's, and nobody seems to know what happened to him. Musicians like him are definitely worth a listen, especially if you can find a CD without so much distortion.
Enjoy the music.
|
*****
Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, *****
Now this sounds like a real Jazz Band, staying true to the roots of Jazz. :)
*****
and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo ****
Would this be THE Willie Dixon of Blues fame?
I will check out Mr Lazar. He is unknown to me.
Cheers |
Learsfool, I can definitely see how it would work very well on the clarinet. If you happen to have a PDF of his transcription, I would feel honored to have it. |
O-10:
Sam Lazar CD prices on Amazon (Space Flight)
Used from $87.99
New $296.90
Surely you jest!! He must be one hell of a player.
Cheers
|
Rok, that is the most expensive CD I've ever seen, and he was one hell of player. In order to know just how good he was, you would have to have seen him live. Sam was a wild man on a organ; he could make it howl and growl, sounds you never heard coming from an organ. If money was no object, I would buy the CD, but since money is very much an object, I wont; however, I can go to "you tube" and reminisce.
Enjoy the music.
|
Orpheus, I have send you a message with a file. Check it out |
Rok, after checking on "Willie Dixon", I'm still not sure. From what I can see, there seems to be more than 1 Willie Dixon.
|
Alex, I listened to "Bud Shank's Quartet", and it was just the kind of West Coast jazz I've been looking for. It's going to take time to down load more, I'll keep you posted.
|
Wiki's says the great Willie Dixon played on a Sam Lazar recording . |
Alex, I've been listening to "Bud" since the last time I posted; it's cloudy and warm here in St. Louis, a perfect day for just "chilling" and listening to some good "West Coast" jazz, and that's exactly what I've been doing, thanks.
Enjoy the music.
|
That's good news Rok, now all I have to do is get my darling wife to give me $296.90 to buy that CD.
Enjoy the music.
|
Willie Dixon: Born in Mississippi, of course, who in Blues wasn't? Maybe the most prolific composer of blues songs ever. A lot of folks made their careers off his genius. As soon as he wrote them, the British invasion fraudsters stole them. Or so it seemed. I like him better as a writer, than as a performer. Howlin' Wolf doing one of Dixon's best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQLdztuMd1gCheers BTW, when you order your $300 Sam Lazar CD, get one for me. I'll pay you back Saturday. :) |
Rok, I'm over that "culture thing" I had with the Delta Blues, and I can appreciate the Blues for what they are; just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
*****
just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK. ***** Would you believe, Beethoven? :) Your home-home getting as close to classical as he will get. hahahah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOrMg3pY7hwCheers |
|
Chuck Berry is another "home boy", he had the "Juke Joints" overflowing. If a guy wanted to see any girls, he had to follow the Blues, because there were very few ladies where you heard Miles and Trane. The best way to find the ladies was to follow Chuck Berry; where ever he was, the joint was over flowing with females.
There was so much live entertainment in St. Louis at that time, that it was hard to decide where to go. I'm going to find more local jazz from that era, and you come back with "The Delta Blues".
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Hi Orpheus - I am not "cleverly evading" anything. You are either willfully misunderstanding, or refusing to understand, however you like, what Frogman and I have said. As for me, I did not say that "I" or "you" have to practice improvisation. I said that ANYONE has to practice it. All of those jazz greats you have mentioned spent enormous amounts of time practicing improvisation, just like anyone has to practice any activity to get that good at it - this is what we have been trying to get through to you. And they continue to practice it throughout their entire career - just like, for example, a Kobe Bryant works on all his moves every day - he doesn't always know which one of them he is going to whip out at any given time in the real game - he often improvises that on the court, in the moment. But he can only do that because he has practiced it all over and over and over and over, and he is thinking in the moment about what he is going to do. Same with a jazz improviser. What they are doing in performance is not random in any way, shape, or form. It is very consciously thought out, in the moment, based on all the work they have done. Spontaneous? Yes. Thoughtless? No. It is a process they constantly work on - how do you think they got so good at it, and continued to get better? Work! Effort! Practice! Did they take some days off sometimes? Yes! I myself have taken an entire month off the instrument several times during the summer vacation, when my face really needed the break (though it takes at least a couple of weeks after that for a brass player like me to get back into shape again, so that's hard to find time to do). I believe that you never heard your friend practicing, as in actually playing his instrument in your apartment, that summer. But you are fooling yourself if you think he never did any kind of practice. For one example, a large part of any musician's practice is mental, and this would be especially true of an improviser - they are constantly thinking about things they could try, and how they would work out in a given context (you yourself brought up the concept of things they wished they could do, and I tried to explain a couple of things that could be meant by that without knowing the actual quotes). I guarantee your friend was doing some of that that summer, even if you never actually heard him play a note. There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head. But since you don't want to/refuse to speak that language, you cannot truly understand this, and I honestly don't know how I can explain it any better given that. Perhaps Frogman could give it a stab again. |
Learsfool, who am I to believe, you or my lying eyes? How many times do I have to tell you that the man was living with me? How many jazz groups have you played with? Is it ever possible for you to say, "I don't know"? Just because you and the Frogman say a thing is so, does not mean that it is, "It ain't necessarily so".
|
learsfool, "There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head."
When you word something like that, "How can you be wrong"? When he was having a bowl of chili across the table from me, I could have looked at him and said "Uh huh, I caught you practicing, I know that practicing look when I see it"
|
Just yesterday I was explaining to a musicians contractor why I don't car pool: time to and from a job is some of my best practice time.
Excellent explanation and post by Learsfool.
|
Frogman and Learsfool, an even better practice time was when he was sleeping; he could dream practice the whole performance. Why didn't I think of that. As usual, the Frogman and Learsfool are right.
|
Hugh "Peanuts" Whalum:
Very nice. They seem to be having fun and are so authentic. Something that would great to hear and see live. These sort of performances are what's needed to bring young folks into Jazz.
Would have been even better with a real piano and bass. And of course real piano and bass players.
Thanks
Cheers |
Rock, when I was digging "Peanuts" I had to darken that peach fuzz over my top lip, and wear a hat to look older, and hope no one ever asked for ID at the clubs he played.
Me and "Peanuts" were a lot younger then, and of course him and his band were a lot better than on that clip. There was so much live music at that time, that I rarely stayed home and listened to records.
Enjoy the music.
|
Frogman, if you want to pursue this conversation according to the book, we could begin with "Ragtime" and Scott Joplin, followed by New Orleans jazz styles; which migrated to Chicago, and became "Chicago Jazz Styles", that was followed by "Swing", that evolved into "Bebop", that merged into "Hardbop", which cooled down to "Cool jazz", after which came a wide divergence and jazz split into "Free Jazz", "Soul Jazz", "Fusion and Rock Jazz" plus "Acid Jazz", and we can not leave out "Smooth Jazz" plus "Latin Jazz" which does not include "Brazilian Jazz".
As our lead jazz musician, where would you like to begin?
Enjoy the music.
|
There is only ONE Jazz, and it's name is Jazz. No bloody prefixes, no freaking hybridization, no hyphens and no multi-syllable words needed.
Cheers
|
|
I hear you Rok; no body seems to be happy after we diverge; but we'll get Alex's input on this, we might even get some "wire worshipers" input, they always show up when there's a disagreement; do you think they'll show up now?
Maybe we should run this thread on two different tracks simultaneously; trains do it; but somebody always seems to jump their tracks and we have a head on collision.
Getting back to local musicians; a pianist I talked to a lot, could play Horace Silver's tunes as good as the man himself, and I was always asking him why didn't he go to New York, and become rich and famous. He kind of "sluffed" off the question, and never answered. After reading about Grant Green, I believe he knew something I didn't; these local musicians ain't doing too bad; nice homes, car, and I heard he had a beautiful wife to come home to. Why go on the road and get mis-used and abused.
Jazz musicians might get famous after going to New York, but how many get rich?
Enjoy the music.
|
That was a fun clip, was it from a movie? I enjoyed it; in these time we certainly need a lot more uplifting fun type of music, and there was nothing more fun than the "Boogie Woogie".
Enjoy the music.
|
*****
was it from a movie?*****
I am not sure. Maybe some war / military movie of the '1941' type.
cheers |
Rok, have you ever noticed that the people who complain about what I talk about, never have anything to talk about themselves. Right now I'm listening to "Moanin". The same one that's on the album, the album that's better than KOB. Every time Bobby Timmons strikes a piano key, I hear something that I've never heard before, although I've heard this tune a million times. I can stand to listen to Benny Golson's solo on "Along Came Betty" forever; if they (KOB people) feel half of what I feel when I hear Blakey's album "Moanin", I can understand why they buy so many copies. Here's the link just in case you haven't heard it for awhile. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwMThis is "Along Came Betty" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTzRHq_cH5E Benny Golson's sax is as smooth as silk; where can you find something like this on KOB? Enjoy the music. |
Moanin' & Along came Betty:
Listening closely to each note of great Jazz, has been known to bring on severe cases of spontaneous smiling.
Cheers |
Rok, I have seen more complaints about me than you can shake a stick at. Is this thread titled "What's wrong with Orpheus" or "Jazz For Aficionados"? If it's the first, a lot of people are batting 100, but if it's the latter, they have failed to contribute anything.
Who ever has a complaint about this thread can change it any way they want to; do you want the latest in jazz? Fine, link it up and let us hear it. Do you want Classical? That's good to, I have no objection? If you want Hill Billy ( post it on another thread) OK, but I can't promise I'll listen.
See how easy it is to have it any way you want it.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
O-10, speaking for myself, I can deal with stubborness, close-mindedness, rigidity, illogic, anti-intellectualism, sarcasm and even plain bone-headedness; however, most disappointing of all (after three years of participation and seeing and overlooking the many signs) is the realization that you are not a person of good will. If it weren't for the silliness in behaving like a petulant child who doesn't get his way it would be even sadder than it is; and, with your sarcasm and cynicism, you simply create more rancor and exclusion. You consider yourself an aficionado and champion of the music and you are so self-serving in the place that you hold for it in your own personal sphere (agenda) that you don't see how you let that personal agenda and the resentment of not getting your way color your perception of the very music that you claim to love so much. You let it influence your perception of what is worthy and what is not simply based on whether your "opponent" (in your mind) thinks that it is, or your "friend" thinks that it's not; just as you refuse to even consider information presented to you in good faith that could help you appreciate your musician friend even more than you do because it would help you understand more the depth of what is required to do what he did. Sad indeed.
|
|
Acman, I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't "April fool day". Since that's not it.... I'm going to pass on this one, and let Frogman make the judgement.
|
Hi Orpheus - I have a couple of questions, and a comment. First, I for one am very puzzled by your use of the term "wire-worshipers." If this is a reference to something on this thread, I must have missed it. What do you mean by it? I am assuming this is not a reference to speaker wire??
Second - this is a repeat of a question in my last post - just how do YOU think that all these jazz greats we have talked about on this thread became so good? I really would like to hear your honest answer to this.
Third - I for one am not "complaining" about you. I applaud you for your love of music, and for starting this thread, which is one of the best I have ever encountered online. I am merely trying to correct a few of your most obvious misperceptions. I know you do not care about this, but it is not about you - it is for others that read this thread and who are interested in how music and musicians really work, of which there are clearly plenty. |
Closer to St. Paddies, so maybe I'm on the sauce.
|
Keaggy & Pachelli and Adrian Legg:
It is very hard for a professional player to sound 'bad' on solo or duet acoustic guitar. But try and visualize the same music being played on Trumpet or Saxophone.
Sort of like playing vibes, a lot of routine unexceptional playing, and players, can hide behind certain instruments.
Solo guitar sounds very life-like on high end stereo systems. We can hear the fingers pluck the strings, seems as if we can hear the individual vibrations. Close your eyes and they are in your living room. No orchestra can make you feel that way with Beethoven Symphonies.
But what are they saying? My take? Not much. Very simplistic music. Neither the Players nor the music was as good as it sounded at first listen.
Of course neither clip was Jazz.
Cheers |
Rok, I was comparing Nica's book to the 100 best jazz tunes of the 50's, and noticed there is an incredible, almost 1 on 1 correspondence to the two; practically all of the people in her book, are represented in best jazz tunes of the 50's. I didn't know it, but both of yesterdays tunes, "Moanin" and "Along Came Betty" appear in the 100 best jazz tunes. That's unusual for 1 album to have 2 tunes in a best of compilation like this. KOB does not have even 1 cut in this book; whatever that means, I'll let others decide. While yesterdays selections were coincidental, today I'm intentionally choosing two selections from that compilation. Miles 'Round Midnight' and Dave Brubeck, 'Take Five'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHdU5sHigYQEnjoy the music. |
Take Five:
Didn't sound 'right'. Now I know why. Where is Morello's solo. It ain't Take Five without it.
KOB:
I never realized that KOB is not represented in the 100 Best of the 50's box set. Interesting.
Cheers |
Rok, you're right on time, I wandered the exact same thing.
I'm going to find another one, back in a minute
|
|
|
That first one we saw was probably due to some "Hissy fit" Paul Desmond was having about Joe Morello. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpZHUVjQydITrane at his best. When you hear any of the top 100, you don't have to ask "WHY"? Enjoy the music. |
That's the one! I was just about to send it. Some things just can't be improved upon. Morello just fakes you out with his solo. He never strikes where he is 'supposed' to. Try to play along with him. (Air Drums) Got more moves than MJ. Must be that time thing.
On of the few drum solos that is vital to the tune. Most are just "lets let the drummer play for a while" type things. Distractions.
Cheers |
Oliver Sain was another local musician who was in popular demand around town, and one I had the good fortune to have a long chat with. He was sitting in the hot tub at the spa, and I recognized him. Since I had gone to the clubs that he played down through the years, we had a lot to chat about; before and after he hit the big time with Fontella Bass. He told me how nice it was living large in the house on the hill, but he knew when it was time to sell, and come back down. We talked about wild times at some of the clubs he played before hitting the big time; he even invited me to come see him where he was performing at that time, but I didn't make it. Oliver Sain (born March 1, 1932, Dundee, Mississippi – died October 28, 2003, St. Louis, Missouri) was an American saxophonist, songwriter, bandleader, drummer and record producer. As a performer and as a producer, Oliver Sain exerted an influence on the evolution of St. Louis and R&B that is rivaled only by that of his close friend and infrequent collaborator Ike Turner. Sain was the grandson of Dan Sain, the guitarist in Frank Stokes’ legendary Memphis blues act the Beale Street Sheiks. In 1949, Sain moved to Greenville, Mississippi to join his stepfather, pianist Willie Love, as a drummer in a band fronted by Sonny Boy Williamson, soon leaving to join Howlin’ Wolf where he acted as a drummer on and off for the following decade. After returning from the United States Army draft he took up the saxophone. Sain is credited with launching the career of Little Milton, who became a vocalist in Sain’s band, and discovering Bobby McClure and Fontella Bass, whom he originally hired as pianist for Little Milton. He is also associated with the discovery of Kim Massie, who was largely unknown until she was heard sitting in with his band. Sain wrote "Don't Mess up a Good Thing" which was a number one hit in the US for Bobby McClure in 1965. The song was later covered by Greg Allman of the Allman Brothers Band, on his solo album Laid Back. In the mid-1970s, he recorded his own disco records such as "Bus Stop", "Booty Bumpin' (The Double Bump)" (1975), "Party Hearty" (1976) and "Feel Like Dancing" (1977). Sain died on October 28, 2003 from bone cancer, which followed on from previous bladder cancer. He was well known and liked by everybody in St. Louis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt1VjRpBMjsEnjoy the music. |
