Isolation stands: snakeoil?
Though since high end audio is rife with snake oil I have little doubt this applies to some (or many) isolation products. This is emphatically - not true. Some just have limited reach pear shaped brains, full of flat earth projections and musings, the kind that are formed and informed by that given pear shaped limited reach. Some keep trying to sneak factualizing into their internal echo projections. I will continue to call them out on it. |
There’s a lot to be said for very massive granite slab type set ups in terms of resistance to bending forces and plain old inertia. Yet, the fact remains the entire house is vibrating according to the local seismic type forces like traffic, subways, Earth crust motion. Therefore, the granite slabs are also obviously moving right along with everything else at low seismic frequencies. For this reason using springs along with the granite slabs is suggested. Mass-on-spring. Yeah! |
@lalitk Has perhaps hit the nail on the head with the OP questions. Turntables are essentially engineering measuring devices - as such an improvement in the suspension - provided it is properly tuned and matched to the rest of the replay ought to improve this function. Microscopes serve as an excellent comparison. Have a read up on Dinsdale White papers that led to the inception of the Townshend Rock, or anything relating to EMT turntables. |
https://www.silentrunningaudio.com/ The ultimate in isolation Kevin works on resonance in nuclear submarines i notice a distinct isolation of notes separated in time instead of smeared think of a pianist rolling across the keys and hearing each separate note |
Wow this thread has gone in quite a few directions. I have a Artisan Fidelity Lenco based table which weights 90+ lbs and is solid as a rock. My Lenco sits on two 1" granite slabs with a 3" maple block on top of the granite. I have experimented with my other devices and my current stand is great. This cost me about $500. Sure there might be an improvement with some very expensive stands but I am quite happy with my tt setup. |
Even when the stand is leveled, there’s still some wobble due to the flexibility of the stand posts which are just screw-in legs and such. Is this solution just not viable for a proper turntable setup? I put the turntable on top of a 27 lbs maple butcher block which is sitting on a trio of Symposium Rollerblocks — this seemed to significantly improve performance. The StudioDeck itself isn’t very heavy, only around 17-18 lbs. |
kavakat1 It was several years ago now, and the firm was a random "capital asset disposition" firm in Silicon Valley, whose name I do not recall. What I do recall was that I trolled Ebay for months in search of active vibration isolation tables, and then I stumbled on these that were somehow improperly classified or mis-named, and they had no bids on them. So, I snapped them up for almost nothing. That is the path that worked for me. |
gdhal"Appearances can be deceiving. Never judge a book by its cover. Nothing was promoted." You promoted a phony $25,000 USD listening challenge that was revealed to be extortion and a fraud and you then sought my personal information like the famous Nigerean scam. An advance-fee scam is a form of fraud and one of the most common types of confidence trick. The scam typically involves promising the victim a significant share of a large sum of money, in return for a small up-front payment, which the fraudster requires in order to obtain the large sum. If a victim makes the payment, the fraudster either invents a series of further fees for the victim or simply disappears. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), "An advance fee scheme occurs when the victim pays money to someone in anticipation of receiving something of greater value—such as a loan, contract, investment, or gift—and then receives little or nothing in return." [1] There are many variations of this type of scam, including the 419 scam, the Spanish Prisoner scam, the black money scam, Fifo's Fraud and the Detroit-Buffalo scam.[2] The scam has been used with fax and traditional mail, and is now prevalent in online communications like emails. While Nigeria is most often the nation referred to in these scams, they originate in other nations as well. In 2006, 61% of internet criminals were traced to locations in the United States, |
clearthink - gdhal has all the appearances of a Nigeream scammer he has promoted a phony $25,000 USD scam fraud on these forums. Appearances can be deceiving. Never judge a book by its cover. Nothing was promoted. You gladly accepted a genuine challenge that you're unable and/or unwilling to participate in. And why? Because *YOU CANNOT* audibly hear a difference if ordinary speaker wire is reversed. So what we have here in fact isn't about anything fraudulent on my part but the exposure of you as a liar. |
gdhal has all the appearances of a Nigeream scammer he has promoted a phony $25,000 USD scam fraud on these forums. An advance-fee scam is a form of fraud and one of the most common types of confidence trick. The scam typically involves promising the victim a significant share of a large sum of money, in return for a small up-front payment, which the fraudster requires in order to obtain the large sum. If a victim makes the payment, the fraudster either invents a series of further fees for the victim or simply disappears. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), "An advance fee scheme occurs when the victim pays money to someone in anticipation of receiving something of greater value—such as a loan, contract, investment, or gift—and then receives little or nothing in return." [1] There are many variations of this type of scam, including the 419 scam, the Spanish Prisoner scam, the black money scam, Fifo's Fraud and the Detroit-Buffalo scam.[2] The scam has been used with fax and traditional mail, and is now prevalent in online communications like emails. While Nigeria is most often the nation referred to in these scams, they originate in other nations as well. In 2006, 61% of internet criminals were traced to locations in the United States, |
@chakster Your remark is not "silly", despite clearthink's opinion to the contrary. Go on and continue your posts. clearthink has unmitigated gall. First he states the impossible. Then he is presented with a genuine and no obligation challenge to demonstrate the impossible. Then he tentatively accepts challenge. Then he attempts to dictate the terms of the challenge. Then he is asked to act privately, and with the inclusion of legal council. Then he refuses. Then he cry's fraud. Then he repeats himself. |
The big Basis TT has proper isolation built in but it’s $100K. The Rockport TT if it’s still made has a dedicated isolation system built in but it’s $80K. All the rest of them, the squishy feet, the springy feet, are Masquerading as built-in isolation as their spring rates are too high to do anything. The resonant frequencies of the platter, the tonearm and the cartridge are quite low, so it’s the very low frequency vibration that’s the real problem. |
@OP madavid0 Proper setup trumps all, and has the most potential. you said in your opening post. most turntables, especially decent ones, have vibration control measures built into them via footers and various construction techniques. This shows to me, that you understand that manufacturers consider vibration control important. but then you say in your next post. I have not bothered to perfectly level the rack’s feet so there is some play / wobble if disturbed. Well, one can wonder if this is due to laziness ? Who knows, but it is wrong for basic 101 turntable set up, and no one questioned it. The TT platform/stand, whatever type/s - plural - as some use multiple products, under the TT, is/are but an extension of the turntable. Adding an isolation platform/s *whatever cost' under it may get better results, but it is a band aid, if the basics are not in order to begin with. |
I don’t like pneumatic systems either for the same reason. Once they develop a leak they will never sound right because there’s a certain design pressure that obviously goes bye bye once a leak appears. And if you have to prop one side up then the thing isn’t really isolating, is it? However, if you or anyone you know is good with Teflon tape, the type for air fittings or the paste for air fittings the leak can be fixed. Both are found at Home Despot. No reason to live without isolation. That’s no way to live. 😬 |
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Untreated CDs on untreated CD players almost always sound thin, wiry, airless, synthetic, boomy, rolled off, unnatural, bland, two dimensional, undynamic, metallic, electronic, congealed, uninvolving, unmusical, cold, tizzy, irritating and like paper mache. But I can certainly understand how some folks can get used to the sound and think, well, that must be the perfect sound they were talking about. |
chakster"If CD player beat any turntable then something wrong with your turntable" Not necessarily it could be another demonstrated example of simple confirmation bias which is very common among those who some call "measurementalists" and also it is a silly remark on the face of it because a CD player can not play vinyl! |
Yes, they are expensive, but I cannot imagine a more dramatic proof of the influence that the surface your turntable sits upon has. Eliminating vibration is a great thing, just so long as you do it evenly (i.e. don't let some specific frequency ranges through). And I got my two Herzans for a grand total of $800 + shipping from a Silicon Valley liquidation house, so keep your eyes open! |
folkfreak That is one impressive system! What's the distance between the listening position and the speakers? |
@lalitk hate to break it to you but digital equipment is just as susceptible to vibration. Just this morning I tried swapping a set of <.5mm constrained layer damping sheets below the base under my master clock (this is a 10Mhz clock that drives the system clock in my DCS stack) -- the effect was quite audible (and in this case negative) Surprised no one has brought up active isolation (herzan etc) -- you can see the measurable impact via the pics in my virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5707#&gid=1&pid=14 |
What’s shakin’? Uh, the whole house is shaking! Not just the listening room. You know, due to all the traffic, Earth crust motion, wind, ocean waves hitting the shore, what have you. Besides it’s a no brainer to isolate the speakers these days, it’s really quite the fad. Saves a lot of time and effort. |
I am moving my equipment, including a turntable, to a room other than where I have my speakers. I have a wooden floor, with a crawl-space below. I have to drill holes thru the floor to run speaker cables underneath. I was thinking of drilling 4 more holes, each for one leg of my stand, and running rebar, or similar material right down into the ground, and suspending my stand on those steel rods with no floor contact. Thus, for vibration purposes, I am truly grounded, and the washer and dryer on other side of the wall will not affect my system. Thoughts? |
I have my TT suspended through the ceiling by four cables into eye hook lag bolts threaded through a 1/2 inch glass shelf with nuts on the underside for leveling. Eliminates all vibration except for what travels through the atmosphere of the listening room. Cables are secured in the attic to conduit pipe that spans the roof trusses and is held in place with conduit brackets. I can't think of a better way to isolate a TT other than having it in another room far from the listening room. |
The best turntable islolaters are the doors between the speaker room and the electronics room. My ex-laundry room has all but the speakers. Of course, guests are not as impressed with the array of electronics, but that was never my goal. Another big benefit of this is the dryer's 10 guage wiring that now comes from a 30 amp 110 volt dedicated breaker. |
"Soft materials?" You mean sorbothane? Why the circumlocution? I worked with airborne sonars at one time and am sceptical about the transfer of acoustic energy to turntables through the air, since depending on frequencies and the size of the turntable or its components, the sound may bounce back or pass right by. Also the impedance mismatch between air and solid objects is considerable, so I can't see much energy getting in that way. In any case why are there no measurements of this phenomenon to clarify what is going on? |
I have not experimented with my TT isolation since it is a mass loaded TT which weighs about 120 lbs. For it, I borrowed Chris Brady's design which includes a sandbox at the top with legs filled with concrete which makes for a dead surface upon which to place the Teres 340.. Dance, jump, do whatever in front of the TT while its playing and there will be no effect. One person criticized the setup as being dead. Yet all I can say is that if my grin got any bigger it would bust my face open. That said, I have played with CDP footings and when I had a lighter TT, different shelf materials. I can tell you that harder materials make for as brighter sound. Wood makes for a softer sound on the highs. This includes the rollerballs I use under my cdp. My wife was recently shocked at the sound difference of the different ball materials of the rollerblocks used under the CDP. I can increase or decrease the highs especially just by the material used in the rollerballs. Therefore I am a firm believe in footers for source equipment especially |
The problem with thinking you’re safe if you’re on a concrete slab is the entire building is shaking due to very powerful seismic forces, including the cement slab. And shaking in all six directions. The very stiff cement slab helps relative to suspended floors, nevertheless....That’s why a very stiff top plate is recommended for whatever isolation stand you want to talk about, to help deal with bending forces. |
I think the issues with most things deemed "Snake Oil" is with the terminology used to promote each particular brand of snake oil. e.g. "this gadget reduces (or eliminates) vibration" What kind of vibration? - airborne vibrations - floor vibrations - arm vibrations - cartridge vibrations - TT vibrations - vinyl vibrations - stand vibrations - etc... But the "unsuspecting audiophile" buys the said gadget, only to proclaim it is useless and therefore it must be "snake oil" As for But here’s the thing: most turntables, especially decent ones, have vibration control measures built into them via footers and various construction techniques.The vibration control measures applied in the vast majority of turntables is only partially effective and only addresses a very limited range of vibration issues actually present in the interface between the shelf and the TT. It is only the very best TT’s that offer the type of "vibration control" most people are seeking - i.e. total elimination. Even then they require a substantial rack or shelf as a foundation Complete vibration control is a product of ... - Good TT design techniques e.g. ...Sound absorbing feet (an over simplification), ...foot positioning ...Platter/plinth rigidity ...bearing design and materials ...Arm/headshell design ...The use of sound absorption materials ...The use of "acoustically inert" materials/techniques ...Employing vibration control throughout the design - Good equipment rack design (including wall mount shelves) ...good support for shelving components ...The use of sound absorption frame materials/techniques ...The use of sound absorption shelving materials/techniques - Good individual shelf design (i.e. within a rack) ...e.g. the use of a "sandwich" design for each shelf So, before you splurge on that next vibration "fix" - look at the claims of the gadget manufacturer - ensure you actually have the problem they claim to address. It’s a bit like buying a hammer and then using it to hammer home nails - it works, but it will never achieve that really strong joint. WRT: Some isolation products and turntable footers, primarily those using soft materials, can be very effective at eliminating vibrations entering the component from the rack/standThe use soft materials can be very effective, I use them myself, however it has been my experience that using "too much of a good thing" can actually deaden the sound, i.e. the sound becomes less vibrant - so apply them wisely WRT: OP and many others are stuck in this loop instead of giving it a tryGranted, giving it a try is one option, but can lead to the proclamation "it’s snake oil" if it does not meet expectations and it can get expensive I will agree there are a lot of vibration control products out there that may assist in the reduction of certain vibrations. But how to gauge their effectiveness is the real challenge - first you have to understand the "root cause" of YOUR specific "problem". Regards - Steve |
Every time I add something to TT chassis to improve suspension or sturdiness of it, I get sonic benefits. I don't like to spend a fortune on these and I don't dig onto that yuppy market of cool toys, but I experiment to position and settle right. Some manufacturers are perfecting some so so. Good feet even from another better quality turntable on lower quality turntable brings positive and audible sonic benefits just like differences in sound between 2 grand pianos for instance. |
Okay here’s what’s going on. I have a MoFi StudioDeck which has sprung feet built in. The turntable is sitting on the top shelf of a Pangea Vulcan rack which was selected for being cheap as opposed to being especially well regarded for audio performance ($150 with extra shelf). I have not bothered to to perfectly level the rack’s feet so there is some play / wobble if disturbed. I have leveled the turntable obviously. The rack and turntable are sitting outside of my listening room. A set of balanced interconnects run from the pre in the rack, under the room door, across the floor and into my amps which shot between my speakers. Since the turntable is placed outside of the listening room, I expect it will only pick up highly attenuated sound from the speakers (sound passing through walls / cracks around door edges, etc). Obviously it can still be effected by floor-borne vibrations, street noise, air conditioner noise, etc and so on. Also, having my system outside of my listening room is annoying. |
In order to get to the bottom of turntable isolation stands, one needs look to..............."the bottom". Bottom meaning what are they standing, sitting, resting on? Lets assume we have two rooms 1) Two identical turntable stands, 2) two same audio kits and 3) two same rooms (3- highly unlikely but used to reinforce the example) Now one room has a concrete floor, the other is a suspended wood floor. Findings will be either this <--------- or ---------> that. Just saying. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ some of these forum threads can go 30, 60, 70 + posts, + pages, before the dreaded loop mentioned above is realized. ******** Audiophiles have been known to go to great lengths to deal with the suspended floor issue. This paves the way to higher prices (and mark up) by the stand makers. |
