Speakers sound different - that is very obvious. But I’ve never experienced a drastic change between amps. Disclaimer that I’ve never personally ABX tested any extremely high end gear.
With all these articles claiming every other budget amp is a "giant killer", I’ve been wondering if there has ever been blind tests done with amplifiers to see if human ears can consistently tell the difference. You can swear to yourself that they do sound different, but the mind is a powerful thing, and you can never be sure unless it’s a truly blind test.
One step further - even IF we actually can tell the difference and we can distinguish a certain amp 7/10 times under extreme scrutiny, is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out to get that nearly-imperceivable .01% increase in performance?
Not looking to stir up any heated debate. I’ve been in audio for several years now and have always thought about this.
Ha Ha! Yes, imagine someone believing all speakers which measure the same sound the same. There are intangible characteristics which are not necessarily measurable that make a difference.
smrex13 My experience in my large listening room with the Legacy Focus speakers (efficient with a low impedance load) includes an EAR 890 amp which cannot play dynamically or bass (yet does fine on Legacy Signature IIIs with an easier impedance maybe due to 3-10" instead of 3-12" woofers). I currently use a pair of 125w. Class A/B monoblocks which is overkill. However, I also have used a 35w. modified Dynaco Stereo 70 to great result (it is not ultralinear but voltage regulated design using a different tap off the transformer just like the monoblocks). It has tremendous bass and dynamics. It also has more neg. feedback and is less detailed than the monoblocks which is why it is used on the Signature IIIs. So you're correct that the amp that can offer high current even at low power can really drive an efficient speaker with low impedance. I've also tried a big Counterpoint hybrid amp (forgot which one, maybe the 200), a Bryston 4B and a pair of classic old Yamaha 200w. monoblocks. The last three sounded polite (anemic) and lacking in tonal color compared to the two non-ultralinear tube amps.
"Alan Shaw of Harbeth makes a similar point, although he is often misquoted as saying "all amps sound alike." He actually claims that level-matched comparisons between properly functioning amps within their normal operating capacity will sound indistinguishable."
Tell him it is true for speakers, too. Take his blood pressure afterwards.
@fleschler We're actually saying the same thing. Shaw's point (as I understand it) is that a speaker needs to be matched with an amp that can drive it without significant alteration in the amp's output. A 20 watt tube amp and a 250 watt solid state amp will sound different on a speaker of moderate sensitivity with a difficult load. However, that difference is due to the tube amp's interaction with the speaker's impedance curve. If both of the above hypothetical amps were paired with a speaker that is high sensitivity and an easy load, they will both sound remarkably similar in blind, level-matched tests.
You say "My speakers sound vastly different as do many high end speakers based on the amplifier's characteristics. Difficult load speakers due to impedance, phase angles or sensitivity present all types of challenges for amplifiers."
Agreed! But the idea is that an amplifier that can meet that challenge (and why would you want an amp that couldn't?) will sound largely indistinguishable from any other that can drive the same speaker without difficulty. Blind, level matched testing seems to bear this out to a surprising degree.
No, no, no. Amps can be level matched and sound totally different. The amps have to match the requirements of the speaker. If the amps sound the same (possibly Harbeth), then the speaker is probably an easy load. My speakers sound vastly different as do many high end speakers based on the amplifier's characteristics. Difficult load speakers due to impedance, phase angles or sensitivity present all types of challenges for amplifiers.
The reviewer can pick out cable differences much more easily than amp differences. In fact, as long as the amps are level matched, he couldn't distinguish a tube amp from a solid state amp.
Alan Shaw of Harbeth makes a similar point, although he is often misquoted as saying "all amps sound alike." He actually claims that level-matched comparisons between properly functioning amps within their normal operating capacity will sound indistinguishable. If they don't sound the same, then they are not level matched or are producing distortion (pleasing or not).
As a former commercial property appraiser, I appraised 17 sound studios in Southern California. Many of the studios had high end playback gear. Same with my friend Robert Pincus, record producer, who visited various major label studios. They did not use junk pro gear equipment in the 80s or 90s. Two studios used my Legacy Focus for playback. Sony used big B&W800d2 for playback in NY. I didn't check their cabling which was probably standard issue balanced and heavy duty A/C. Most of the studios had superior power conditioning. I remember one had 22 isolation transformers of 2KV each (former use was for tube computer equipment for BofA accounting).
I had a friend who is now passed that ran a recording studio professionally and did hall n oats, todd rundgren and many private works out of Manhatten and NJ area. we used to play on stuff with the studio master tapes as source with totally uncompressed un corrected for riaa or anything and compare systems. often with real pro musicians listening and wouls say:" hows that now" without doing anything at all cept turning off the feed for a split sec so they hear a click and think a different system is now online. but Ha Ha on them. we would get all sort of eserteric comments on what they now hear of can detect. we were mean I know but proved outright the A/B/C comparisons when properly done proved its all in the head. given everything is more than a chinese junk system. LOL!!! not even the decent home 20-30k$ systems could compare to cheap studio stuff. And I have no interst in them But Crown and Jbl were king. even when laying down pro tracks of the NYSymphand NY classical music. well enough pesisism on the cost affecting proper performance and dont get me started on connection wiring false hoods. plain 12/4 Sj cord for 3bux a foor is all you need ever.
The Amps are well known as 10k since 10000 watt is standard output each. The quality of sound is input=output uncolored or unaltered except for lots more. and i do have current sense Cts transformers at the loads 30ft away-feedback. and tube sound is passed purely from tube preamp input-warm as a puppy. i have storage scopes and CROWN RTA and THD analzers online at all times to watch for glitches- see crown addiction site pg 4 pics http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/crown-addiction-photos.340649/page-5
oh the accuracy of Specs on these are regulated by Mil-spes and FDA medical and more Govt assc.
^^The specs on the amp appear to be misleading. If it were really capable of 150Amps at any time, at the very least it would be making 22,000 watts or more! Constant current mode involves using current feedback rather that voltage feedback, and will cause the output impedance of the amplifier to much higher than most loudspeaker loads.
the constant current mode makes the only diff. eliminates all the spk/wire losses. a lowest pipe organ note still clean at 125 db. they dont run MRIs with all your Eseroteric Expensive names. The Techron M600s too for upper bass and highs. Never near a clip or preceptable thd. Just a bit heavy.
I have recently installed my old amp because my 'new' amp is going for an upgrade. Both are the same SS brand, one just higher up in the series. Even in our acoustically very bad living room I was surprised to hear the difference when playing at low to low/medium volume. Crank it up though, and the acoustics of the room make the differences in amplifiers inaudible.
So Peter Aczel, of the Audio Critic to my ears is wrong and I wasn't even trying to hear difference, it was just obvious in casual listening. I also don't have great ears anymore. They get tested for work every few years so I know have a slight dip in my left ear.
Re. “…there can be an appreciable difference between high-end and mid-fi gear”…
Yes—but, by large margin, that “appreciable difference” is often just $$$$. And that’s not a very compelling distinction.
The assigned job of the power amplifier is to accurately amplify the signal, not to reshape it in some pre-contrived way that renders sound more euphonic. This latter function is best relegated to the loudspeaker system.
Any departure from accurate reproduction of the incoming signal represents amplifier error. And amplifier error represents unintended distortion of the incoming signal. It doesn’t matter if the distortion encompasses frequency response, or extraneous harmonics, or waveform shape, or added noise—it’s an inaccurate portrayal of the incoming signal. I personally subscribe to the school that says accuracy improves when any form of distortion is minimized, and many solid-state power amplifiers meet that criteria quite well today. Differences are often more a matter of power output capability, load impedance sensitivity, and reliability, and you need to get in deeper than mere listening to evaluate the value impact.
Maybe the OP should present his argument on the Naim Forum and see the response. Naim Audio seem to have a nearly a 'cult' following who share their musical love with the 'Naim sound'. Maybe they should be invited to proper staged blind listening tests and see if they can tell the difference.
“Longtime readers of The Audio Critic know the drill that comes at this point: I repeat, for the nth time, that all amplifiers having high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor sound exactly the same when operated at matched levels and not clipped. (Those who are unable to stomach this simple truth, proved over and over again in double-blind listening tests, should stick with Stereophile.)”
--
Tube amplifiers with their typical output impedance of >1 ohm will act as tone controls as they interact with the typical varying impedance of most speakers. Ohm’s Law applies here! Go look it up!
These two statements purvey the idea that its all about frequency response and low distortion. This promotes a falsehood, since frequency response is not the most important issue (meaning that low output impedance isn’t either).
Its all about distortion. Less expensive amplifiers tend to be designed to look good on paper- i.e to have ’good specs’. More expensive amplifiers are often designed by engineers that understand that the audio industry hasn’t progressed much in the last 50 years as far as spec sheets go, and so look to advances in our understanding of human physiology that have been made in the last 50 years instead.
For example, the human ear/brain system uses higher ordered harmonics in order to sense sound pressure. This is easy to prove with very simple test equipment and this fact has been known for decades, but the spec sheets and what we think of as ’good specs’ still ignore this simple fact! But many high end designers, including Nelson Pass and John Curl (both giants in the high end designer pantheon) understand that designing the equipment to not make certain types of distortion to which the ear is keenly sensitive will result in a better sounding amplifier, even if other types of distortion (to which the ear isn’t very sensitive at all) are present in higher quantities. It is this fact that is why tubes are still commonplace in high end audio.
A further fact about how the ear/brain system perceives sound is that all forms of distortion are converted into some form of tonality. The 2nd harmonic contributes to ’warmth’; the 7th harmonic (in much lower quantities!!) contributes to a harsh metallic quality. Both are colorations, and the ear has tipping points where these colorations predominate over frequency response; IOW you can have flat frequency response yet the system won’t sound flat at all due to the kind of distortion the amp makes.
The above quoted statements don’t take this into account.
What is needed is a weighting system, so that the distortions that the ear cares about are given more weight than those it does not. Spec sheets would look a lot different if that were the case! Anyway, a well-designed amp that sounds good to the ears probably won’t have "good" distortion specs as it will likely have more lower ordered harmonics, but it will **sound** better and **more neutral**, if the designer was careful in the design. You won’t see that in cheaper gear- its all designed to look good on paper.
So yes, there can be an appreciable difference between high end and mid-fi gear.
@asianatorizzle—I really don't think that you can do better than the Parasound Halo A23 power amplifier at your price point. The circuit design is excellent, and the build quality is as good as it gets for (as I recall) just $995 (Audio Advisor). The A23's performance specifications are fully listed, quite complete, and consistent with top quality. And my own measurements show that the amplifier meets or exceeds those published specs. In addition, the A23 exhibits measured DC offset of less than 2mVdc max., which is w-a-y better than the published 50mVdc limit typical for many hi-bias quasi-class A designs. (Note that listening alone does not reveal any of these vital distinctions.)
Thank you all for the responses - I’ve definitely learned a lot from reading them.
I actually just sold all my gear and am planning to pull the trigger on a pair of Focal Sopra 1s.
The specs are 89 dB, 8 Ohms, and a recommended 25 - 150W.
If I had a budget of $1k for an amp to go with the Sopras, where would you guys recommend I start looking?
Erik - I don't think $1k is enough for any of your suggestions haha. But maybe one day.
It would be very interesting to start with an affordable amp, and maybe in a few years upgrade to a higher end amp to hear the difference between them.
I don't think you should listen with your eyes. My point was for you to listen to each of them and see if you hear a difference. I think reading the tech and then convincing yourself you hear a difference is the wrong way to go. :)
However, Ayre famously uses a "diamond" output stage, which is something you should be able to research. I won't say more to avoid further bias (pun intended!)
@erik_squires—Hi, Erik, your comment was of special interest to me because I think that I comprehend the thrust of your point; i.e. that these three makers each represent distinct (power amp) design approaches that are competently executed but distinctly different.
Now, I know the Parasound approach (I use their Halo A23 myself), which is basically conventional class B operation. (Yes—it's slightly "hi-biased" at very low power—so-called "class A/B" mode—but that's not a truly significant distinction.) And I'm familiar with the Pass design concept, wherein output stages are biased for true class A operation at powers up to ~ 12-18 Watts output (on many models). But I'm NOT able to gain any meaningful information about the Ayre stuff, and I find that really frustrating!
A Personal Note: I'm an old retired guy with lots of DIY hi-fi experience, including analog circuit design and building my own pre-amps, power amps, & linear regulated power supplies. I like to know the tech stuff, and I do a lot of my own testing. (With my own instruments.)
The Ayre website is the anthesis of Parasound's site. Ayre provides only the barest of product specifications with near zero tech info. And their owner's manual downloads are pure fluff. Sure—their chassis look great and their prices are exotic—but how does one comprehend what they're doing? How does one get to appreciate Ayre's designs and learn what's going on inside? I haven't even been able to find a helpful (meaning with tech detail) review on the Ayre stuff. What do you know, and how does one find out what Ayre is doing? Any suggestions?
I've tried various amps over the years both SS and tube. Differing amounts of watts from 60 up to 1000 depending on speaker ohms. Tried many kinds of speakers; easy to drive and some not so easy. I always found what sounded best were high current designs regardless of power output or speaker efficiency. Synergy between components is important too. My higher wattage systems never sounded as good as my lower wattage systems that were high current. Mainly a Pioneer M-22 or Threshold S/300. The other amps had higher power ratings but never sounded good. And those were the ones I had full recaps on or upgraded.
Back in the early 80s, a audio enthusiast friend and myself, each had a 100W HK SS power amp and had Audible Illusions pre-amps. My speakers, at the time was the Vandy 2c and I think his was the Pioneer HPM100s. In short - our audio dealer loaned us a new little amp to bring home and try for a week - It was the 80W, PSE Studio II. Somewhat believing Julian's stories about all SS amps sounding the same, I was expecting to hear very little, if any difference. What a surprise - in both systems, in every way, the little, PSE out performed the HKs. It was like removing a veil. Needless to say, I picked up the PSE. Even though I went from the Vandy 2Cs to the Vandy 2Ci to the Quad ESL 63s, the PSE stayed and served me very well....Jim
in my ecperience(I'm 52 and have enjoyed this hobby since I was in junior high school). From my first "Sharp brand" receiver through many different gear changes to my current "Pass Labs" gear. Yes!!! and worth every penny.
I have owned three different SS amps and could hear the difference between them. I have owned two tube amps and could hear the difference between them. What others have said about the more expensive amps offering more power is true. My ears prefer the sound of tubes, and I definitely prefer the amp I have now (Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP) over my previous amp (Cary SLI-80). The Primaluna is more powerful, and the preamp stage is better. The sound improvements are not dramatic, however. The Cary amp sounded wonderful, it's just that the Primaluna sounds better.
Tube amplifiers with their typical output impedance of >1 ohm will act as tone controls as they interact with the typical varying impedance of most speakers. Ohm's Law applies here! Go look it up!
vtvmtodvm @geoffkait —Well, I don't know the answer to your question, but, as (apocryphally) credited to Mark Twain… “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
So I guess some people always need more proof.
>>>>As PT Barnum was fond of saying,
”People would be generally much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.”
I think it's easier today to hear the difference in amps
(because of the advancement of IC's, power cords, & receptacles)
than it was back when those guys made their claims. Although even back then, I didn't agree with them. Way too many tell tale signs to make a claim that they sound the same.
I think the easiest way to hear the differences is by comparing an inexpensive SS amp with an inexpensive 300B amp. I am hard of hearing in one ear and the other ear is no better yet I can hear the differences.
vtvmtodvm: In other words, perhaps, all amps that have the same characteristics and work within a prescribed set of specifications sound the same.
However, different amps with different characteristics and different specifications will sound different. For example, my Dynaco Stereo 70 sounds remarkably different than my Cambridge Audio 640 (testing the ST70 with the pre-out from the 640). My Odyssey Khartago sounds quite different from the 640 driving Harbeths, but they sound about the same driving my Altec Lansing horns. My HK AV receiver sounds the same as the 640 and the Khartego driving PSB Alphas, but the Harbeths lose dynamics when driven by the HK, and need the extra power from the Khartego (haven't tested the HK with the horns, but I suspect they will sound the same driven by any of my SS amps). The horns, which I find a bit shrill when driven with SS amps, sound wonderful when driven by tube amps.
Listening is the best way to determine whether you like a particular system. There is a learning curve, and different systems sound different with different program material. What you may like (or think you like) is also very subjective. You are allowed to change your mind.
abrew19 "Any yutz with ears can hear the difference between an amplifier before and after vibration isolation. Well, maybe not the bullet headed dude from Audio Review."
Do you mean Julian Hirsch from Stereo Review?
Audio Review. Stereo Review. Who else could it be?
Per Peter Aczel, of The Audio Critic:“Longtime readers of The Audio Critic know the drill that comes at this point: I repeat, for the nth time, that all amplifiers having high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor sound exactly the same when operated at matched levels and not clipped. (Those who are unable to stomach this simple truth, proved over and over again in double-blind listening tests, should stick with Stereophile.)”
I recently bought a used Krell 300i integrated on a whim. It proceeded to wipe the floor with some amps that cost many times more. Many amps do sound similar but wide deviations exst too . Which is right depends on your taste and system synergy.
Kinda unrelated to this discussion but how much of a difference is there between a very early Levinson (ML3,ML9) and a current one or similar brand? I've always wanted to know.
"Any yutz with ears can hear the difference between an amplifier before and after vibration isolation. Well, maybe not the bullet headed dude from Audio Review."
There is a difference. Most systems benefit from having an amplifier that has characteristics that optimize the sound of the speakers (in your room, playing the music you listen to, at volumes you are comfortable with).
Your listening habits, room and speakers will make much more difference, provided you are using a well specified amp that can produce the appropriate amount of power. The quality of your program material will also make a huge difference.
tomfoolery, Very interesting info, I'm not familiar with level matching....will have to look into that. And this is a great discussion for me as it's primarily what I'm concentrating my efforts on now. Here's been my experiences...just my two pennies.
The very best system I've heard had a tube amp. Not going to argue the merits/faults of tubes but it just sounded incredibly musical and captivating to me.
The next best systems I've heard had class A amps. They seemed to come close to the sound of tube amps.
A/B amps of various brands and quality seem like they can get closer to a class A amp.
Class D I have no hands on experience with other than what I've read.
So my "unicorn" system would have the efficiency of Class D, would sound like a tube amp, but would also be able to be switched to sound like A/AB for home theatre and some types of music. Impossible I know, just wanted to expand on the OP's question of differences and hear other's thoughts on the above "class warfare" lol.
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