Is there a Solid State amp that can satisfy a SET guy?
Have been a SET guy for so long I have forgotten what a good SS amp even sounds like. Just bought a pair of $33k speakers that will replace my current $16k speakers. Both are from the same designer and both are 92db and a flat 8 ohms. The new ones arrive in 4 days! My 300B based amps well drive my current speakers even though I do use the system nightly as a 2 channel home theater. Especially considering the HT usage, I think I may enjoy a SS amp with many times the horsepower. The speaker designer suggests using a Leema Hydra II. I have written to Leema telling them of my 300B preference and they assure me that their amp does not have the destructive harmonics that make a SS amp bright. There must be other SS amps that can satisfy?
Many years ago I had an Atma-Sphere S 30. It had beautiful clarity although at that time I felt it leaned toward a SS sound. Because of this animated and informative discussion, I have come to much better understand the qualitative elements that make for good SS sound and good 300B SET sound. It is surely a mistake to generalize, although the essential and main difference is that SS is an intellectual perspective and SET an emotional one. I just spent 3 days listening to my First Watt M2 in place of my 300Bs. As it was wisely said: it is a different paradigm. I did appreciate the tight bass and the fine details but missed the SET. Today I put the tubes back in and it was a big ahhhh... ! Instead of using my head and enjoying the qualities of the SS M2, I again am using my gut. It’s visceral. However, the good SS qualities and good ones of SET may be embodied in Atma-Sphere MA 60s. As we all know, Ralph has been a deeply seasoned source of knowledge and information. His statements about my intellectual/emotional understanding referring to how the brain interprets sound has been transformative. I believe I now am aware of the negative aspects of SET. That is, pthe lose of focus, distortion, etc. I believe the Atma-Spheres may balance clarity and emotion in a way that my evolved perspective can perceive and appreciate. If the thread continues, I will report on the results of the MA 60s. The Bakoon 13R is still of significant interest. I cannot discount how I may or may not care for it. But my understanding that tubes, especially in an OTL, have a physicality that cannot be duplicated. After all I have come to understand through this thread, I think that the Atma-Sphere is my best bet. Time will tell.
"I've got a Pass XA30.5 and a Golden Tube SE40. I'm rigged to switch
between them depending on what I'm listening to. Both so good, but
different." What preamp and speakers do you have, and can you say more about the differences? I have GTA SE40 configured as monoblocks, Supratek Syrah preamp and Sonus Faber Signum monitors. I've had this system for almost 20 years, and thinking that I should try a SS amp, looking seriously at the Pass XA25. Thanks.
@mglik, I think you are correct in your analysis. As I stated earlier, I made the transition from my 300B amps to the M-60's and couldn't be happier. I went for the power supply upgrade plus the V-Caps, which I think is well worth the cost. Careful selection of the 6SN7 tubes is important, as these amps will not come close to their potential with the stock tubes. In my case, I think pairing the M-60's with my 101D based preamp is also a very happy pairing, and gives the system a bit of that DHT magic without the downsides articulated so well by Ralph. The M-60's are destination amps for me. No interest in trying anything else for my main rig. Please keep us posted on your results.
Well, I have put down a deposit for my M 60 demo. It should be ready next week. And I should have it week after. Surely, I am excited to get it. One of the poetic comments in a post that gave me real insight into the SET sound was, I paraphrase: “SET sound is like a sonic screwdriver loosening the tone”. Metaphoric but clear, certainly when compared to SS tone, SET tone kind of has a looser tone relative to a SS exact tone. Another clear phrase is that, in SET tone, those who love it call it warm and those who don’t call it distortion. I do love that warm distortion but do look forward to maintaining much of the rich, organic SET nature while gaining SS clarity. Thus with the Atma-spheres. I was asked about my preamp and speakers. Audible Illusions M3B with John Curl gold phono boards and Tetra 606 speakers. Interesting is that I imagine the AI pre, being single ended and triode, may have a similar nature to the M 60 Atma-Sphere. Very neutral and clear without imposing much of its’ own sound signature. It is not particularly warm but also not particularly cold. Maybe also the Tetras. Very natural not imposing any sound of their own. And I do have a safeguard in mind. Am seriously considering a Zesto phono stage that definitely has a delicious classic tube sound. So, for music playback, I should be able to combine that tube sound with the more neutral signature of the Atma-Sphere. And for my HT evenings, enjoy the clarity, focus and accuracy of the M 60!
Another vote for Luxman or Accuphase. I'm biased towards Japanese SS though, as my experience (and ear/taste) prefers the ultra -clean, dead neutral, nothing between you and the music**, yet smooth and silky sound. And I roll with horns, Klipsch Cornwall IV's. Not a hint of brightness, harshness, or "shouty" horn.
I demoed about 10 amps available in my area, Parasound, Pass, Levinson, McIntosh, most of the usual names, and finally chose the Luxman L509X. The others were all nice amps, no bones about it, excepting the Parasound Hint 6 which required volume of 75% to get moderate listening level. Klipsch are extremely sensitive so this puzzled me. The dealer thought it was normal, I thought the amp was faulty though everything appears to work otherwise. The Luxman I bought here and it's just a wonderful, beautiful sounding amp.
** The Klipsch are already unapologetic in exposing the flaws of subpar recordings, and coupled with the Luxman, the effect can be ruthless. Something like Hazards of Love by the Decemberists though? Spectacular...
... the Parasound Hint 6 which required volume of 75% to get moderate listening level. Klipsch are extremely sensitive so this puzzled me. The dealer thought it was normal, I thought the amp was faulty though everything appears to work otherwise.
@jet88, I suspect you were right, unless the issue was only occurring while using a low output moving coil cartridge into the Hint 6's phono stage
For all of its other inputs the gains provided by the Hint 6 are pretty typical, spec'd as 10 db line stage, 28 db amplifier stage, 41 db MM phono stage. But the gain of the LOMC phono stage is only 54 db, significantly below average.
Yeah, something wasn't right with the parasound. If I recall it had plenty of rated power. I wasn't using phono , btw. I've been purely digital for years now, CD and streaming only. I grew up with vinyl but physical space and convenience pushed me over the edge. It also freed up money for better equipment. :-)
Bricasti makes very nice amplifiers that to my ear come very close. A deHavilland Mercury 3 would add to the spaciousness and I hear no electronic noise.
Thank you for your post mentioning the m2tech Crosby amp. I recently got one and my friend also has one and we recently attempted to connect them as bridged following the user guide directions, but without success. I switched both amps to bridged, connected the preamp (also a m2tech Young preamp) to each amps red input, and connected the speaker leads for each channel to their red outputs per the instructions. Result, no sound.
I’ve owned all those you’ve mentioned. My speakers are Avantgarde Duo XD so a more normal speaker might yield slightly different results.
The Pass XA25 is a wonderful amp but very neutral to my ear. Power is easily double rated output. Powerful bass, smooth highs and nice open sound. Very quiet.
The Valvet E2se (also had the non SE version) is a superb amp. Most likely half or actually one quarter of the output of the XA25. For my taste, I think I may slightly prefer the non SE version. It’s a little warmer, sweeter and overall a little more smoothed over. The E2se is cleaner and more see through because of upgraded parts and wires. This is my taste because I usually prefer a warmer/sweeter sound. Both Valvet amps are superb, just match them appropriately. If you love a little more neutrality, go for the SE - power feels ballsier than rated.
The SIT3, on my Avantgarde, is my absolute favorite. Warm/sweet, a little soft but with detail, full, meaty, awesome vocals, rounded and slightly puffy bass. It’s listen all day and night awesome to me. The SIT1 is the energetic and more lively version of the SIT3. I had the monos. If my room was bigger and my speakers further away, I’d likely enjoy/prefer the SIT1 as much or more. The SIT1 is a little more forward, open, more front or second row perspective with TREMENDOUS 3D and a giant soundstage. It has to be heard to be believed. The SIT3 is more mid hall effect and a little more distant. The SIT3 is more intimate. Again, my taste.
All above amps are dead quiet and amazing performers. These are my opinions only.
My budget for an amp is below $10kish. I have a First Watt M2 and it is nice but I miss the 300B sound. Can’t stand the “linear” sound. I love it “juicy”.
You need linear gain devices, like tubes.
the only linear gain SS devices are V-Fets, and Nelson’’s ’first watt’ SIT devices, and the Japanese equivalents. There is a Japanese company making some decently high powered ones, can’t remember their name.
the gain of the device MUST be linear, gain MUST be linear, NOT the non-linear gain of ALL transistors, of ALL types. MUST be linear like a triode.
This is high end audio, accurate, real audio. the rest is just dressed up cheapo schlock, from $50 to $200k, is is all the same. Non linear gain schlock and dreck. Seriously.
The future of high end can be moved to being back on track, to the place it should have been, when the cheapo non linear and odd order distortion "transistor" showed it’s face on the scene.
Sony corrected that with the creation and introduction of the V-fet, but the market was too far gone off course to understand it.
But some kept the torch alive.
For a V-fet to be useful to you, it needs to be a total pathway that is all V-Fet, the whole way through the given electronic pathway in the given amplifying device. And small-signal V-Fets or SIT’s are very rare.
Your quest is a powerful one but poorly realized as items to pursue may go. There is one single company in japan. And that’s it. the small transistors and the big high power transistors in the given amplifier must ALL be of the linear gain SIT and V-fet type, and very very few ’small signal’ or smaller linear gain transistors were ever made.
Triode real world transient functions in a tin can...can only be found in linear gain devices like V-Fets and SIT transistors. No other expenditure of monies can come close or equal it at all.
In the path you walk...the other 200k, 300k, or 2-3 million types of transistors (It’s a huge number) are all garbage, in comparison. Not worth bothering with at all. Don’t even try. Don’t waste your life energies or monies, as there is nothing there.
You may still be able to enjoy the music and hum along for a few bars, but not a single one of them will have the magic that our ears literally depend upon.
When it comes to solid state devices...Only the SIT and the V-Fet transistors are capable of that.
You understand that we make world class, new physics cables, yes?... and we depend on the high end market and... I’m seemingly attacking it’s core, at it’s peak $$$k levels?
This issue is real but very poorly realized. To the point few understand what is missing and what was lost. This is a move to a correction and in that there will be blood spilled, there will be changes, and it will move slow. We only have so much time in life to spend... so spend it wisely.
Move to V-Fet and SIT when and where you can, as the wait will be near impossible, and take a very long time, if it even occurs at all. The entire audio market and whole transistor world is too far gone down the wrong road. the correction, if any, will take about, oh.. 25 years, if it happens at all.
If one is to be alive at and throughout the given timeframe (we are all aging), that is.
Thus, one grabs the SIT and V-Fet devices where they can. Dog eat dog and run like a thief in the night... among the ones who are conscious of the problem at hand and the solutions available.
There is a Japanese company making some decently high powered ones, can’t remember their name.
@teo_audio
If you are talking about 'VFETs' (Static Induction Transistors or SITs, are the exact same thing as VFETs FWIW...) then the name is Tokin. But you would have to sort out how to make an amplifier with these devices...
I have heard two SS amps that get close to 300b SET. Bakoon (I have the 12R - it has been replaced by the 13R) and Ancient Audio A-3 (http://www.ancient.com.pl/e_a-3.htm).
@atmasphere , you are right on the money....yes, VFET is a SIT transistor. Tonkin (NEC), nor any other manufacturer make SIT devices today....not that I am aware of.
@teo_audio I am having a hard time fallowing your message?? Linear, yes, SIT devices are the most linear SS devices ever made, but they are no longer made anywhere. Are you implying a new design, new build?
BTW, VFET and not V-fet is the name that Sony used in the 70s.
IMHO, the most sensible approach is to use a fully restored and enhanced Yamaha B-1, B-2 or another powerful choice from Sony. For preamp the choices are limited to Yamaha C-1 as this was the only Vfet preamp ever build, and even the C-1 uses some J-fets in the signal path..Yes, the C-1 is very "busy" but the tone section can be defeated and the line stage is stunning. The tone controll section in the C-1 is also handled mostly by SIT devices and it becomes useful if the listening room is not ideal.
The entire signal path between the Yamaha C-1 and B-1 is all Fet, with the majority of the signal being handled by Vfet/SIT devices.
Both the amp and preamp are 40 years old by now and need proper rehab....NO, a simple recap would not do...and YES, once restored, they sound sublime....as they should since they make use the most linear transistor type ever made.
@sonetduo Nelson Pass had some made but then the semiconductor house went belly up. Unlike the Sony and Yamaha devices, you can actually kinda sorta find the Tokin devices... So that's about as close to 'common' with these things as it gets!
Funny that tubes like the 6SN7 that were considered obsolete 55 years ago you can still get brand new, but semiconductors go out of production when the wind changes, and when they're gone, that's pretty much it.
@atmasphere , yes, some Tokin devices are still available but they are no longer manufactured (I have some NOS). The Tokin devices were manufactured for telecomunication and were never as linear as the Sony or Yamaha choices...or the original NECs for that matter.
Not sure if @teo-audio was suggesting a new design of an one-off amp or a small batch production. The later would not be feasible with the current levels of NOS Tokins.
True, interesting how smicinductors just go away....
How you liking the F7 these days ? I remember you were mentioning the F7 had a bit bigger soundstage and a little more detail than the valvet - still feel that way ?
I have not gone back to the F7 since the initial few days. We’ve had a storm pass through, no power for almost 3 days and with some frequent brown outs, have not had the stereo on much at all this past week.
While I’ve initially loved and love the F7, my main amp is and has been the SIT3 on my Avantgarde. I eventually need to put the F7 back in rotation, but my SIT3 has been just so wonderful for me, I’m getting a little lazy swapping out gear.
@joeinid How would you compare the SIT3 vs the Valvet E2-non SE? I owned the SIT3 and found it to be the best SS amp I've heard, but still slightly preferred my Aric Transcend amp in Triode with no NF....just a little bit more organic tubey presentation.
Nothing will or can beat a good/great tube amp. My main goal for finding the perfect (for me) solid state amp (SIT3 is my choice with Luxman 590 AXII a close second) is because I play my system 12-18 hours a day when on. Tubes would worry me a little. I am not opposed to swapping around sometimes.
The Velvet E2 non SE is closer to the SIT3 than the SE version. Sometimes I wish I still had the non SE version for my Avantgarde. Only in comparison to the SE version, the non SE is not quite as clean on top but it’s a little sweeter/warmer and a little more "musical" at the expense of a little detail.
Brother, once tubes are in your system, nothing else satisfies like tubes. Your new 606’s sound like a dream! Is it me, or are these built upon a common open baffle theme? Take away the enclosed sub and what you have is an open baffle speaker. I previously owned open baffles with an AMT horn produced by the former Hawthorne audio company. The bass driver however was completely open like the upper drivers. Anyway, enjoy your 606’s, they appear truly beautiful!
How bad is tube rush from your listening positions with 300B SET amps?
This thread made me interested in auditioning a small 300B SET amp for a near field desktop system where high power isn't necessary. It might not be a good idea with high tube noise.
Perhaps with time invested in Pass Labs XA-25, First Watt SIT-3 you would come to see their beautiful strengths like I have experienced. That said, I love BOTH worlds so I have a Luxman switcher for when I want this or that...
Well, now I have been enjoying my Atma-Sphere M-60s for a few months. They are destination amps. Right away, I deeply knew that I would never go back to SETs! The Atmas have the sweet, natural sound of SET 300bs with the detail of a great SS amp. The SET was wonderful but it really had a warm and lovely sound that covered up much of the music. I love the metaphor of the “ Sonics screwdriver loosening the sound”. Yes, I do miss the beautiful tone of the SET but any day would choose the accuracy of the Atmas. Interesting that I grabbed a Bakoon HA-01 headphone amp from US Audio Mart for $725. (kind of happy that they seem to now be a formidable competitor to Audiogon) It should come next week. Very curious to hear how it compares to my current HA, David Berning’s prototype of his great MICROZOTL. I believe the Bakoon will be a different kind of sound. Seems it may be a new take on SS performance. I will have it on trial. Let’s see if I keep it.
Mike, obviously we are in agreement on the M-60's. They are also my destination amps. I have no interest in looking elsewhere. I also agree that when everything else is right, or close to it, the M-60's deliver the best of all worlds. Sweetness, resolution, and enough power to drive most reasonably efficient speakers that are north of 8 Ohms. It is all there. It was a bit different for me however, in that they revealed some rather serious issues with my room and other pieces in my system. It took not a small effort for me to get everything else dialed in. That would be a caution I would issue to any one trying these amps. Others probably won't know right away, as you did, what these amps could deliver.
Good for you enjoying the M-60s. I have the MA-1s, excellent amps, if you use a DHT preamp with the M-60s these are so transparent that you will get the DHT lush sound, such sound although amazing is not my cup of tea for every day listening, I rather have a pre with 6SN7s, but that is just my preference.Congrats on the OTLs, it is hard to go back to SET or SS from there.
Supratek Cabernet Dual with 300B on one stage and 6SN7 on the other stage, in both cases the OTLs will preserve the nature of the sound in such a transparent way, I’m a neophyte with a short audio experience compared to many of you and professionals in the industry and just recently had the chance to empirically understand the "transparency" concept which Ralph @atmasphere commented to me years ago about his gear and I thought I understood what he was describing and I wasn’t, I thought transparency was a synonym to "clear" and "detailed" and kind of his but the real concept is "passing through unaltered", but you need to try gear on your system to find out about the differences (duh). The OTLs of course will provide dynamics and gain on the sound with perfect clear resolution but they won’t provide color, or even harshness to the sound and won’t change the "nature or tonality of the preamp sound". This is a blessing but also a curse, beware, you feed crappy sound and you will get crappy sound. I run an MP-1 on my system which (again) Edit:could be for the lack of a better word "disgustingly transparent", your source is magical you get magic, your source sucks and you will be disappointed. I thought on mentioning this since the OP got OTLs and he should be enjoying these very much.I don’t doubt SS and SET amps could be good but based on my limited experience if you want to experience SET sound you could perfectly match SET pre with Atma OTLs.I’ll be happy to provide more details @cal3713 if you ask
@luisma31 Great, thanks so much for the details. Seems to be a bit of a consensus that people prefer the 6sn7 circuit in the Suprateks.
I have SS amps (First Watt f4 monoblocks) that provide only current gain and have very little sound of their own as well (and have had both m60s and 300b SET monos in the system). Currently have a 6sn7 pre and have an eml-20AM based dht on the way. I love the current sound, but am also looking forward to comparing the different preamp typologies. I'm cheering for the dht because it's a custom build and resale will be difficult, but as always, the proof is in listening and whatever sounds best wins. As you accurately state... you only learn by hearing the gear in your system.
Seems to be a bit of a consensus that people prefer the 6sn7 circuit in the Suprateks.
Don't get me wrong, the DHT is very special, best way I can describe it is if you want your sound to sound like a live event go DHT but if you prefer studio type sound then 6SN7s, I haven't tried the 45s, I heard is the closest to 6SN7s from all DHTs.
but am also looking forward to comparing the different preamp typologies
Oh yeah go to town and report back please, as long as the wallet allows it right ;)
As you accurately state... you only learn by hearing the gear in your system.
This a great exercise not only to find out but also to "calibrate" your own hearing I can clearly hear difference with different tubes technologies, with the same tube and different manufacturer is harder for example Sylvania, Raytheon 6SN7s it is harder to tell how different they are, on the other hand Chinese cv181 new production sound very different. Same thing with wine once you have gulped 1000 bottles or so of different wines you can have an accurate baseline to keep comparing lol Really report back BTW Eml 20am don't know what it is was that a typo?
Hey, thanks for being happy for me! Absolutely, through this thread and the advise given, I was successfully able to make the huge leap away from decades of SET-300B and 45. And being able to finally hear what my speakers are capable! It seems most speakers love more that 8 or 1 1/2 watts. 60 watts of the M-60s is plenty for my 91db 8 ohm Tetra 606s. Actually, I loved my Atma-Sphere amps so much that I sold my cool Audible Illusions M3B with John Curl phono and bought a great Atma MP-3 preamp. Especially since I rolled all the tubes for good NOS, it blows away the AI and is the perfect match for my M-60! And with the phono section of the MP-3 I was able to change my plan to get a Zesto Deluxe phono stage and another good IC. The phono in the MP-3 is amazingly good.The amps and preamp continue to open up as they break in and now the main quest is to search for great recorded LPs. Although the system even makes so so recordings enjoyable revealing the performances unlike ever. It surely is satisfying to reach a total destination feeling through months of the quest for the best!
@mglik congrats again, that mp-3 is an absolute amazing preamp, I had one with no vcaps no special updates but the mk3.3 iteration, that preamp was incredible, hard to best
@cal3713 thank you, Never heard about that tube before, filament voltage and current like the 300B but it seems that because the construction could be more linear that other DHTs, thanks
Happy Thanksgiving everyone, listening to my mp-1 and MA-1s right now, some Michael buble (wife likes it) God bless you all (haters and trolls included)
I got my Bakoon HPA-01 the other day. I am super happy with my Atmas but, man, the Bakoon thing is for real! It has musicality and incredible transparency, it has most of the great qualities of SS-detail, bass, dynamics with no harshness or glare. The sound is addictive! It is my new headphone amp with my $30K CD setup. Bakoon uses a current drive Satri circuit, They say, and I agree, it is like looking through a clear window. Indeed, a new take on SS. And it is an integrated. If anyone asked me what amp to buy, I would say-Bakoon!
Headphones bring an addition bit of clarity that's hard to get with loudspeakers. Current drive is advantageous for headphones, but impractical for loudspeakers.
Yes the Bakoons are wonderful.Some audiophiles might not get them because they are not adding anything but if you really love music you will.They have immaculate timing so everything just gels together musically and sounds right and that is combined with very high resolution of all kinds of subtle little details that lesser amplifiers smear together.These traits are especially obvious with well recorded piano .
Some more thoughts on Bakoon: I clearly understand that a headphone system is quite different from speakers. At least with headphones, the Bakoon HPA-01 headphone amp has amazing qualities well beyond my Berning MICROzotl. However, when it comes to realistically reproducing the sound of an acoustic instrument or voice, the Berning wins. There are key superiorities to tubes and OTLs (Berning’s OTLish). But the truth of the Bakoon is spectacular on most passages. Now listening to Sgt. Pepper’s as if for the first time! After going through this thread for months, there were several posts pointing toward Bakoon. I am happy that I took that advise.
FM Acoustics are silky smooth. I was a SET guy for a time and at that time, they satisfied me, and essentially converted me. If your speakers are a flat 8 like you say then you could get the 108’s no problem (or 111) and I think they’d blow your socks off.
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