IS THE WEISS 204 A SUBSTANIAL UPGRADE FRON THE CHORD QUTEST

Weiss 501 on USAM

I have not dealt with this seller personally so looking at feedback, having an actual phone conversation, etc. is advisable when making a purchase like this. 
 

When it comes to 204 although I never heard it, the use of switch mode power supply is an immediate deal breaker for me. Having had the Qutest and the TT2 I am familiar witj how sensitive these DACs are to power. Yes you can get the upgraded Weiss linear power supply but why the need for two boxes?
Your $5,000 budget is good enough to get an excellent DAC. The 501 uses linear power supply and is a single box. Other DACs to consider in this price range - Bricasti, Meitner, Denafrips Terminator, Holo Audio May KTE, etc 

Looks like you’re in NY so this 501 may be a local pick up for you. 

Resolution is defined by the sample rate and bit depth. Both of those in turn are defined by your source. Any DAC that changes even a single bit in the bitstream is by definition, defective. So, no. The Weiss will not have, cannot have, better resolution. Nor is it likely to be meaningfully quieter, since the noise floor to peak output on both is far greater than dynamic range of your room noise floor to peak system SPL, which in most domestic systems is lucky if it hits 60dB.

That said, does it have noticeably better reconstruction filters or a better analog output? Those are things you may possibly determine through listening.

@panzrwagn you’re mostly correct. Weiss cannot have better resolution than the Chord Qutest. If we’re talking about the bitrate. Now…better power supply, better clock, isolated USB, better analog stage, etc. that’s what matters. You get lower noise floor that results in better resolution of detail, not better resolution in bitrate terms.

Can you make a recommendation or do all DACs sound the same?

All DACS must be 100% accurate in decoding the bitstream or else they are defective. So yes, all DACS have to sound the same. Where they may vary is in reconstruction filters and analog output stage.

Power supply differences are again largely mythical unless you are seeing power supply spuriae in the audio bandwidth and at levels within the dynamic range of the system. If your system has a peak SPL of, say, 113 dB, that requires a 90dB sensitive speaker and 200W of amp. If the noise level in your home is 50dB, that gives you a system dynamic range of 113-50 = 63dB. If the noise from your DAC is -100dB, improving to -110 dB is "measurable, not meaningful" because that noise is already so far below the noise floor of your system. Just like if wearing a certain type of shoe sole reduces your chances of being struck by lightning by 50%, no rational person is going to throw out all their other shoes. The improvement is measurable, not meaningful. 

So, you may find very minor improvements from reconstruction filters or analog line driver circuitry, That's for your ears to decide.

Far more likely, any improvements in your (very nice, BTW) system can be achieved through improved room acoustics. Far and away the weakest point in most systems. 

I have the Weiss 204 with a sbooster LPSU upgrade. I believe sound wise it was a substantial upgrade over the qutest (I have it for test with a upgraded power supply too) and the Weiss 204 with the LPSU is just a tad bit behind the Holo May KTE in resolution and a bit of nuance in the lower registers. Overall very happy with the Weiss and can recommend it without reservations.

@panzrwafn

That Sir, is an excellent answer.  
 

@panzrwagn got it. Thanks for the system compliments if they were directed to me. 
We have a difference of opinion. Mine’s based on experience with different DACs at different price points. None of them were defective. All sounded different.
I wish a $50 DAC was as good as.my current DAC but we live in a real and not theoretical world so that’s just not the case.

Happy Holidays to you!

@audphile1

I think I wasn’t clear in what I was saying. The job of a DAC is to convert the digital bitstream input into an analog output. All DACs must do that identically or the ones at variance are defective. But that part of the job is incomplete. The signal must then pass through reconstruction filters, then passed through an analog line stage before one can listen.

The reconsruction filter used in a digital to analog converter that eliminates the stair-stepped waveforms created in the digital sampling process and restores frequency, amplitude, and phase of the original signal. The process of digital sampling creates stair-stepped waveforms that resemble square waves (increasingly so at higher frequencies). These waveforms contain the original signal, but also have high frequency noise and harmonics added to it. The reconstruction filter – which is basically a low pass filter – removes all of the high frequency signal above the Nyquist frequency that was induced because of the sampling process, leaving a “smooth” sinusoidal type waveform resembling the signal that was originally sampled.

lAnd it is in those stages that the differences in sound quality originate, not in the DAC stage itself. It is our tendency to group those stages and refer to it as the DAC. The difference is not just semantic, rather it enables us to focus the discussion on those areas that actually can impact sound quality.

https://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/206806457-What-s-the-Difference-Between-PCM-and-DSD#:~:text=A%20reconstruction%20filter%20is%20typically%20used%20in,are%20normally%20used%20in%20PCM%20encoding%20systems.&text=The%20dynamic%20range%20of%20DSD%20decreases%20quickly,rising%20noise%20floor%20just%20above%2020%20kHz. 

@Panzrwagn -  that analysis is based on the frequency domain. The time domain is also important.

I’m using a sonnet Pasithea and the detail retrieval is absolutely incredible. Worth a look and around your price point.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I used the word resolution to mean sound better. I understand sounding better is subjective. But generally as you go up in price the dacs do indeed sound better. For example, the Dac before my Qutest did not sound as real and as immediate the Qutest. DAC. My question was is there a DAC in my price range that would sound much better than the Qutest, and if so, specifically which ones passed your test for being a substantial improvement in overall sound quality.  Thank you. 

@kjl1065 I owned the following DACs after the Qutest:

Bryston BDA3, Benchmark DAC3 HGC, PS Audio DSD MkI, Marantz SA10 SACD Player/DAC, Chord Hugo TT2, Bricasti M3. 
 

All except Marantz (not my cup of tea at all) and Bryston (different but not better) are an improvement over the Qutest. My favorite is the Bricasti and it can be had used way under your price range if you are patient and keep an eye on the used market. I’d say my second favorite would be PS Audio (slightly noisy though but very engaging sound) and Hugo TT2. As I stated earlier the TT2 like the Qutest uses SMPS and the variation in sound quality depends on how clean your power is throughout the day. Benchmark is a good DAC as well but to me it sounds slightly cooler and dryer than the rest - you can do better within your budget. 

If you like full sounding and if your system is on the bright side the Marantz SA 10 is an exceptional performer on my system. The secret use the balance ic and good pc and ic it will reward you.Music direct discount them. Talking about Weiss Dac ? Check Steve Huff reviews on Weiss. Audio Mirror has listed here on Agon , they DAc V is on sale.

Check schiit yagdrassil Dac they have a 15 day return policy. This is a exceptional dac.

Following.

I can’t decide wether to buy a DDC to go with my Pontus ll or get a different DAC.

While I can’t answer your exact Question, I can say I am happy with the Weiss I have.  After going then the rabbit hole of dacs, I found a mention of Weiss in a thread.  I did some research and liked the dna of the Weiss.  I did purchase the updated 2024 version of the Weiss dac 501 mk2.  

From what I have read (not heard) the updated 2024 version of the Weiss dac 501 mk2 is very nice and an improvement over the original 501.

 In case you have not seen this:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMLUzxk33EE

Check schiit yagdrassil Dac they have a 15 day return policy. This is a exceptional dac.

It took about 30-days of playing before my Yggi+ OG and LIM sounded great.

My Yggi+ OG was at a shootout in Colorado a few weeks ago against the Mola Mola Tambaqui and the Chord DAVE. The owner of the DAVE said my OG had better bass, but he preferred the DAVE by a hair.

My golden ears friend was involved with the Mola Mola Tambaqui vs the OG comparison. He liked the Tambaqui a bit more bit he said something that really surprised me. He told me in a blind test he likely could not tell which was which. Now that statement from him was surprising. He has legendary hearing, writeup about that on 6moons.

These are $2200 and $2800 DACs. The OG has been replaced by the MIB at the same $2800 price. I am going to convert my LIM to the MIB. The LIM is a bit rolled off on top and maybe preferred on a brighter system. Though it suffers in comparison to the OG when it comes to details.

@kjl1065, personally I think only you can decide if something is a 'substantial upgrade' based on your room, system components, ears, preferences, etc...

Try to buy used at a decent price (allowing easy flip) or new with a return window.  In my experience I've found spending substantially more on a DAC doesn't always translate to a 'substantial upgrade', but then sometimes it has been well worth it for me.

I recently sold my Meitner MA3 for a Weiss 205+LPS and the sonic trade-offs vs $ was well worth it for me.   On the other hand I purchased a Yggy LIM while I owned the MA3, and as much as I liked it (for the $) couldn't live with the deltas and kept the more expensive Meitner.

To my ears the 204/205 is super clean, open, detailed, and fun.   I thought it was a little lean and lacking in dynamics but the LPS helped with both of those.  I wouldn't worry about the two box solution as both the DAC and LPS (e.g. Weiss, Modwright) are small, and even with my dual output Keces LPS the two combined take up less space than my Meitner did on my rack.

If you don't need USB try a used 205 (one for sale now at only $1600) with a $400ish LPS and see if you like the Weiss sound signature.

Cheers

My 205 WAS the DAC on sale for 1600. It was on sale because it was exactly leaner than I desired although it was detailed, open, and clean. But I pulled the ad because of some changes. Let me explain.

I had made some improvements to the upstream DDC the Singxer SU-6 and I bought some DC purifier/booster devices from AliExpress to use on various components including the other DAC I was using. I heard a sizeable improvement in the system with these improvements. Being the curious tinkering audiophile that I am, I decided to take the 205 out if its box and try the DC purifier/booster on the 205.

With the 205 back in the system with the enhancements, the 205 is not lacking in bass/punch/dynamics. If anything, I’m getting more of these things with the 205 over the other respectable DAC I am using. The bass is full and has weight. This weight is also not limited to the bass. For example, snare drum and higher frequency sounds now have more impact/attack. I sense more "elasticity" than before with the sound. In other words, the fun factor has made a comeback. The other DAC will now go on sale. This is the most fun my system has sounded since I’ve gone all DC. And I dare say this is the second best system I’ve put together and that’s saying something because I’ve gone through a lot of gear and have done a lot of tinkering over the years.

One note to anyone new to the 204/205: do play with 10dB and 20dB output attenuators. I found I had both inadvertently set on. In my system, I preferred only the 10dB attenuator on to match my headphone amp/preamp.

Power supply differences are again largely mythical unless you are seeing power supply spuriae in the audio bandwidth and at levels within the dynamic range of the system. If your system has a peak SPL of, say, 113 dB, that requires a 90dB sensitive speaker and 200W of amp. If the noise level in your home is 50dB, that gives you a system dynamic range of 113-50 = 63dB. If the noise from your DAC is -100dB, improving to -110 dB is "measurable, not meaningful" because that noise is already so far below the noise floor of your system. Just like if wearing a certain type of shoe sole reduces your chances of being struck by lightning by 50%, no rational person is going to throw out all their other shoes. The improvement is measurable, not meaningful. 
 

@panzrwagn I appreciate your technical contributions and insights on this thread.  I’d like to suggest that there are at least two ways that power supplies can affect the sound of a component in a playback system.

One is the possibility of having a direct effect on the performance of the component itself, either by cleaning up the power to the component from the wall, distributor, power conditioner or supply cable, or, by doing a better job converting voltage and current from the wall to the specifications required by the individual component.  Both of these possibilities could result in less noise reaching the component and/or the appropriate deliver of current as needed for the unit to function at maximum performance.

A second possibility is that a power supply for a specific component is interacting with your entire system, either through the supply cable(s), or by producing noise that is fed directly back into the wall/distributor/conditioner in ways that degrade the performance of your other components and ultimately the overall performance of the sound you are getting.

Any power supply, whether built into a piece of gear or external is a de facto part of your overall system performance, and along with the supplying power cord, a possible source of noise to adjoining and connected components.  Because of this there may be value in trying different power supplies in your system to determine if there is a positive effect.  And because of these possible interactions and the fact that your cable loom is it’s own “system” affected by adjoining cables and any electrical fields generated by the adjacent electronics, experimenting with different power supply cables for aftermarket linear power supplies can be helpful, or not, depending on your particular combination and configuration of components on your shelf.

Modern Electronic manufacturers, especially from Europe, are looking for ways to reduce the energy draw of the gear they sell.  SMPS are excellent for producing specific current and voltages efficiently with little heat loss.  They may not be the best solution for high end hifi systems where you could end up with multiple switching supplies connected to the same power distributor.  I have banished all wall warts from my system and even removed an internal switching supply from my streamer.  My system sounds good to me, but my monthly electrical bill is higher.

YMMV

kn

@knownothing excellent post

Thank you @audphile1, I hope someone finds it helpful.  I appreciate your input on this thread as well.  I had not read @sirnui’s post before making my own, but they describe going way down the path of maximizing elements of their system around their DAC with very good results. Tweaking in hifi is both fun and frustrating, with steps taken both forwards and back along the way.  But some of the possible end points are really, really good.

kn

Chord DACs do something I really like. They have great depth to the sound field. Apparently R2R DACs also do this. 

Delta Sigma DACs can have great width, but I find they have very shallow depth...which can present as a forward or in your face presentation. 

My guess is that phase impacts depth...so it could be hi-fi trickery...but it's trickery i enjoy ;-) 

@panzrwagn can probably de-mystify this. 

I recently traded in my Qutest for a fairly inexpensive streamer ($4K Moon 280D). I loved the Qutest until I compared it to the Moon. Perhaps the DAC in the Qutest is better on paper, but the dealer said that USB was not a good way to connect to a DAC. Too much jitter in the interface.

The Moon 280D sounded cleaner with more air which gave the soundstage more complexity, at least to my ear. The Qutest sounded dark and a bit smeared. Again jitter? I compared the Moon 280D to another streamer that was probably way better on paper, but my hear could not discern the difference. 

I have been reading a number of audio forums in which people talk about how difficult it is to tell the difference between streamers. I usually don't buy a new piece of equipment until my ear tells me to. I have never heard a piece of digital equipment whose presence comes close to my turntable, but I have a fairly expensive analogue system. VPI Prime Signature, EMT HD 006 cartridge, ARC PH-7 phono preamp. When digital resolution rises to 192 sampling, it comes close, but analogue has more air and less smear.

My advice is to forget what's on paper and listen to different options. I would suggest the Moon if you have a local dealer that sells them. Or try other streamers. Since the source feed and the DAC are both in the same box think there is less jitter.

A streamer also makes life a lot easier. The Moon has a Mind2 inteface that runs on a phone or iPad. I use Qobuz and can look up an artist by name and see all the album covers under various artists (could be Van Morrison or Beethoven or Simon Rattle). Touch on the album cover and play it. Much easier than Qobuz on the computer. Since many others say it is difficult to hear the difference between streamers, again I would suggest using your ears and don't feel intimidated if you can't tell the difference between a DAC with a $12,000 atomic clock and one without. 

Have fun shopping. I always do.

@audio-b-dog I have no doubt that the Moon sounds wonderful, but I am wondering what the source was for the Qutest and what cable you used to connect it?  I have a Qutest and it matches or surpasses my vinyl rig, but I have done a lot of optimization upstream of the DAC.

Also @seanheis1 I find Chord DACs do something special with timing that helps music make sense and reduces fatigue.

kn

knownothing  I purchased an Audioquest USB cable. Probably not a very expensive one. I did not do anyhing else to optimize the DAC. I loved the sound until I compared it to the Moon 280 D. I didn't try playing with more expensive cables.