progress is inevitable, some times for the better sometimes for the worse
in audio, there are always great engineers and impassioned music lovers striving for positive progress using new techniques and technologies
on the other hand, many people don’t have the time, energy, money or attention span to keep up and be truly aware of the progress being made by those who are making it
those people don't like to admit the above, and prefer to express negativity on discussion boards such as this
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It’s nice all the Class D detractors have a thread to dump in. As you can see there are so many of them (detractors). Maybe a dozen or so.
Meanwhile sales of Class D based gear continue to skyrocket. Go figure.
Alternate realities don’t seem to rule in reality. |
I also do not own Wilson Alexia’s so who cares. It was you that inferred it could drive the them to their best. You are the one that’s comical and preaching BS not me. If your going to shill something get your facts right |
george
You do these drive by posts and really have nothing to add from first hand experience you form opinion from others opinions. Your stuck in the 80's and have not moved past. You really need to spend time listening to music instead of forums.
I also do not own Wilson Alexia's so who cares.
Your posts are quite comical and show little value, just more BS to get past. |
And now the ring leader, who thinks these AGD's can drive Wilson Alexia’s 0.9ohm bass loading so they can give their very best.🤦♂️ |
davkobza
I know exactly where your coming from, i thought the same about Class D for over a decade listening to the so called latest and greatest. Like you the AGD's changed what i had thought of Class D in the most positive way. My music has never sounded better. PS, ignore the person from the funny paper. |
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Class D sucks.
I’ve said it many times. Dry and lifeless, sure. I’ve been weary of anyone stating that it can be really good. Short of being utilized for subwoofer amplification I had ruled it out pretty much completely. I mean, what could better class A/AB/Tubes? My ears don’t lie. I’ve been around. Case closed, not interested…Or so I had convinced myself.
Then comes along GaN (Gallium Nitride) class D. Never heard of it. “Oh God, class D, here we go again”, I thought initially. I didn’t care to be honest.
Enter AGD. Unknown company. They seemed to have some really good reviews/feedback coming from those whose ears I’ve come to trust by and large. So okay I was curious…Apprehensive? Hell yes, and doubtful it could better really good SET amps.
But regardless I was willing to take a risk and demo a pair of monoblocks (AGD Audions), yes doubtful and ready and willing to discount them.
And then I LISTENED…
At first I sat there a bit confused at what I was actually listening to…I continued to simply LISTEN.
This was altogether DIFFERENT. “This can’t be class D”, I thought…WTF
My paradigm for what I had thought audio
to exist within was being shifted with every track…this is (was) pretty amazing!
This changed everything for me with regards to my pursuit for sonic excellence. I could no longer deny that class D done right can exist right up there with best of the best.
Sounds like hyperbole, I’m well aware. It’s simply what I’ve discovered and felt this thread deserved some truth.
Enjoy! |
When are your Class D amps coming out? I just sold an amp and looking for a new one. We're doing limited shipping of Beta production right now. As with many things associated with the pandemic, we've run into supply side shortages that have caused us to design and fabricate some parts that should be 'off the shelf'. |
And that’s where demagnetizing the aluminum CD disc furphy started back in 1996, and should stay. Along with all the other "snake oil" like directional mains fuses, Shun Mook mpingo disc etc etc etc
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@atmasphere When are your Class D amps coming out? I just sold an amp and looking for a new one. |
Both de-staticing and demagnetizing a CD will improve the sound. Like I said it’s a furphy and to those promoting it. Maybe to de-static, but we weren’t discussing that. But you’ve got nothing but "snake oil" voodoo for the de-magnetizing. |
They are as long as you don't try to measure them |
If I hear voices in my head are they real? |
You can argue about science but it is just thoughts in your head. What is real, is what we hear. Expectation bias is also very real. Perhaps have doing the destatic thing, measure what it does? You'd need a CD with test signals on it. |
What is true in audio is what we can hear. You can argue about science but it is just thoughts in your head. What is real, is what we hear. Both de-staticing and demagnetizing a CD will improve the sound. This can easily be heard. The effects of the procedure, however, are brief.....do to the spinning of the plastic CD......building up more static. Your ears are on your head........the ego is in the mind. Use your ears.....they work. |
Furphy
Aluminum cannot get magnetized.
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That's a nice bunch of tweaks you got there. A few are new even to me. And bonus points for noticing demagnetizing CDs only lasts about 7 minutes. Well done! |
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"If you want to know anything about my mods then please call me. Any mod done to an IceEdge module will void all warranties with the manufacturer (Legacy, in your case) and with IcePower. This is one reason most would not be interested in mods to expensive gear, like the Legacy. The modded Rouge Design would cost you very little.....the IceEdge modules (modded or stock) are super reliable. All 12 of my modded amps from 2019 are still going strong. " @ricevs Thanks for the post. I have no idea how to contact you.....at least let me know how to look you up and find your phone# |
If you want to know anything about my mods then please call me. Any mod done to an IceEdge module will void all warranties with the manufacturer (Legacy, in your case) and with IcePower. This is one reason most would not be interested in mods to expensive gear, like the Legacy. The modded Rouge Design would cost you very little.....the IceEdge modules (modded or stock) are super reliable. All 12 of my modded amps from 2019 are still going strong. |
"No, you can clearly see the stereo IceEdge modules in ALL of Legacy’s amps. They do not use the AS1. Buying AS2s in bulk makes more sense, since they make a lot of multichannel amps."
Definitely agree with @ricevs here based upon all I've been told or seen with the cover off the amp; the modules in mine are definitely 1200AS2's used 1 per channel no a 4-channel amp.
Ricevs: Still keen to know (via IM or a website) what mods you offer as I was sincere in my prior post about investigating them and assuming they won't cross with anything already done in the amp design by Legacy or void warranty considering them seriously. |
"Sorry Zephyr, my comments were not meant as an insult or disrespect, and if you took it that way, I apologize.
I’m biased towards Wilson Audio speakers, and my feelings are the same as yours in regards to other manufactures. However, bias does play a big part in anyone’s purchasing decision." @golfnutz I did not take it in either of those ways at all so no worries and thank you for your post. I only took the implication that my positive comments on the amp after 12 months of hearing it and knowing exactly what it can do in the context of how I've implemented it including cables, speakers, etc...were drawn primarily from brand affinity. Believe me, brand affinity does not overrule what my ears are looking for to the extent that I would misinterpret or misreport the results just because the folks at Legacy take fantastic care of their customers in all the many years since my first purchase back in the early 2000s... |
I have never seen or modded a Rouge or PS Audio amp. However, they will both benefit the same from the mods. I spent 6 months modding the IceEdge module so this is why I know my mods will work. Tonal differences? Way more to sound than tonal differences. Maybe you mean sonic benefits? Please call me if you want more info. Now back to your regular program.
No, you can clearly see the stereo IceEdge modules in ALL of Legacy’s amps. They do not use the AS1. Buying AS2s in bulk makes more sense, since they make a lot of multichannel amps. |
I have a pair of PS Audio Trio A-100's that I've upgraded by removing the 15 year old B&O ICE Modules and replacing them with current 2021 revisions of the same 200ASC modules. So, kind of a frankenstein amp because this mix of parts never existed "in the wild". In any event, they sound amazing. I use them to bi-amp my speakers for summer listening, because my Pass Labs X5 is just too hot to use in my small listening room in the summer, in Arizona. |
zephyr24069,
Reading the Legacy Audio site, it appears that the IV1 monos, IV2 dual monos, and IV4 ultra all use probably the 1200 AS1 module for each channel. They are all in the Master Series. The regular IV4 and IV7 are in the lower Performance Series, and probably use the 1200 AS2 which is a compromise in stereo and multichannel, since available power with all channels driven is reduced due to shared power supplies. So I suppose that the performance of the IV1, IV2 and IV4 ultra are nearly identical in each channel. Am I correct? Did you compare IV2 to IV4 ultra? It seems you have two Valor speakers, so I wonder why you got the IV4 ultra instead of IV2.
You might want to get the stock Rouge Studio N-10DM for $1550 delivered, which seems to be comparable to the Legacy IV2. See for yourself as you A/B with your IV4 ultra. I think I will get the Rouge, and then later consider ricevs' mods. |
Ricevs,
Thanks for your insights. Francesco at Rouge Audio says that their amps benefit from 500 hours of break in. PS Audio says 300. Have you taken a broken in stock Rouge Studio N-10DM and compared it to broken in stock PS Audio M1200 ? After your mods, what are the tonal differences between your modded amps to the stock versions, after break in? |
Everything makes a difference. Most here are ignorant of that fact. Most people just buy stuff and listen. They have no idea what things do inside the box. Hardly anyone knows that every single thing you do changes the sound. If you have 5 manufacturers using the stock IceEdge module, you will have 5 different sounds. And 2 of the 5 would be wildly different. Even the AC inlet makes a serious difference.......the AC wire inside, the power switch, the chassis vibrations, the hook up wire, grounding, jacks, brands of solder, etc to infinity. Give me that exact Mivera amp in the review and one hour later with my tweaks you will have a noticeably better sounding amp without even touching the module. Many of the mods I do to the module make it more open, dynamic and extended. The soundstage gets larger and not in some kind of exaggerated way. Some stock components will shrink the soundstage.....some will artificially expand it. Some components will sound very detailed but still dry up the 3D live sound. A large bodied guitar should should sound like a large bodied guitar.....this is how it sounds live. It should not be a pin pointed super small cardboard cutout. If you have a perfect recording and played back through perfect gear then you should get the exact live concert. There is no perfect recording, there are no perfect playback components. The fact that our stereos sound great is a miracle.....plain and simple.
Audio is not simple. There is no end to this game. There are no measurements that tell you which brand of solder sounds best. You have to listen. Drag racing is simple......you have 5 factors.....power, weight, drag, traction and gearing.....and it is all measurable by the clock. There is no clock in audio....there is just our ears. Since everything makes a difference in the sound and it cannot be measured.....well.....Pandora's box times infinity. Enjoy the ride. If you think you "know something"......well, it is just your ego wanting to be in control. What you know.....is what you experience. Everything else is just guesses. When you know yourself as essence, you will know everyone as essence. We are all beautiful and worthy....everyone. |
Sorry Zephyr, my comments were not meant as an insult or disrespect, and if you took it that way, I apologize.
I’m biased towards Wilson Audio speakers, and my feelings are the same as yours in regards to other manufactures. However, bias does play a big part in anyone’s purchasing decision. |
To address the direct comment and its implications, yes, I am a fan and long term customer of Legacy Audio however I have also owned as well as heard and praised many other brands.
Brand affinity does not however mean that my ears don’t work well and I don’t know what I am hearing in the context of the system as a whole, cables utilized, etc after 12 months of nearly 100% daily listening.
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1. Brand biased to Legacy Audio
2. Advertising dollars
Using one channel of 1200AS2 is identical to single 1200AS1
Using one channel each of 2 x 1200AS2 is identical to 2 x 1200AS1
Using both channels of 1200AS2 sounds identical to one channel each of 2 x 1200AS2, except you have 1200w@4ohms vs 670w@4ohms for 1200AS2.
If you plan on purchasing an amp, and having Ric do his mods, why wouldn't you buy used instead of new? Once Ric's mod's are applied, you lose your warranty anyway. If you check HiFiShark, you'll almost be guaranteed of finding a used Icepower 1200as2 amp for sale. |
ricevs,
I read the 10audio review of the Mivera amp, a stereo stock IceEdge 1200 AS2. Pretty bad--rolled off HF with all the deadly consequences for detail, spatiality, etc. I'm sure the 1200 AS1 stock used for each channel would be better, but how much? Since you believe there is nothing special about Legacy IV2, is it just a stock 1200 AS1 with fancy casework, etc.? How do you explain the great reviews of the similar IV4 ultra, both from hometheaterhifi and our friend zephyr24069? |
Check out PS Audio Stellar series. I believe Stereophile did a review praising the M700 mono amps, which I have. Awesome sounding ...in my opinion. |
JJSS49; why thank you sir!
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i concur with @adameos -- the devialet adh integrated amps are full of saturated rich colors and impact... really lovely sound, just the opposite of ’dry’ and ’lifeless’ -- so one could say that class d amplification is like all else in high end hifi -- when you buy smart, and are willing to pay up for quality, you get what you pay for...
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The Devialet Expert Pro (a hybrid Class D / Class A amp) driving Magicos. The Magic DAC in the Expert is truly phenomenal. QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker cables - not the most expensive but they paint the whole picture with a massive airy soundstage that is full bodied and ultra detailed but natural. Tidal music streaming (especially the MQA masters)... = Magic sound that is big, dimensional like vinyl, ultra transparent, complex and nuanced, devoid of distortion. Liquid, smooth and fast. Beautiful... i.e. the opposite of what you say. |
ricevs,
I'll quote your excerpt from that hometheaterhifi review.
"Soundstage width and depth presentation not quite as “big” as some other reference-level amplifiers."
This reviewer's reference amps are a BAT and Pass, both known to be tubelike. Tubes tend to have those soundstage characteristics. The few accurate amps that meet my standards for clarity/detail do NOT have these characteristics. In my experience, accurate SS amps have relatively thin and focused sound. I once had a stock tubed Theta preamp. When I got Roger Modjeski's highest grade tubes for this, the Theta took on more of a solid stage focus with cooler tonality. So I realized that both tubes and SS can be designed for accuracy/neutrality. Less accurate electronics usually exhibit greater soundstage width/depth. This reviewer LIKES the large soundstage width and exaggerated depth of tubelike SS amps. These amps are akin to taking a mediocre picture and magnifying it. You cannot increase resolution by magnifying the picture. If the picture is large enough to view, then magnifying it will make it more blurry and generally less satisfying. Some people LIKE bigness, bloat and blurry qualities. I still wonder if anyone can come up with any amp at any price that can better the CLARITY of select IceEdge 1200 AS1 amps.
Telling the truth and describing it is important, we agree. Can you describe tonally exactly what you find "blah and boring" about the stock IceEdge amps you heard in your own system? How are your modded amps different tonally?
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electric cars,et al
The world has a loooong way to go before it's ready for that type of nonsense. But that's a different thread for another day..... |
Class D is what the world is coming to....just like 5G, electric cars,et al. I remember clearly that CD's were awful....they are not awful now. The world moves on and some of us will just be burried....and the beat goes on |
@viber6
It was not the cable (WW Series 8 XLR) it was the Oppo 105 dac that I had direct connected to the XLR inputs on my AA dac/pre, which bypasses the AA dac
hth |
@atmosphere
Mods should not automatically pull a post because someone reported it, but they have done so to me on at least 4 different occasions. I reported each to Tammy, who
agreed they should NEVER have been removed, and had ALL reposted |
ralph -- don’t waste your breathe... it isn't that people like this don't understand, it is that they can't help themselves and they don't care |
I don’t see much point in interacting in this kind of debate if the mods
are going to delete/ban people for having a different opinion. @dougeyjones Its not the difference of opinion that got your posts removed, it was that you violated a forum rule. As an example, you can't call someone 'stupid' or anything like that. You **can** call the comment the person made stupid. The distinction is 'attack the post, not the poster'. If you follow that rule you won't get posts removed. I've auditioned a number of mics against my Neumann U67s and find that they are actually quite neutral. Just because something is tube does not mean that it has to be colored- so much depends on topology. For example, to get rid of the 2nd order to which so many solid state advocates object, we designed our tube amps to be fully differential from input to output. In this manner the even orders cancel in the amp, not just at the output. By doing this our primary distortion product is the 3rd harmonic. It masks the presence of the higher orders and so the amps sound very smooth, and because the even orders are mostly cancelled, also very transparent. This is BTW how a lot of solid state designers do it also! You can make a solid state amp that makes a lot of the 2nd order, and it too will sound smoother; Sunn very famously did that with their first solid state guitar amps in the late 1960s, by making almost the entire amplifier single-ended (which is where most of the 2nd order comes from). Its more about topology than it is tube or solid state. Our class D amps have a distortion signature that looks a lot like a tube amp (as does the AGD Audion) and no surprise, these amps sound nice and smooth. @tweak1 To be clear, the moderators are not 'PC' so much as someone reported a post you made- that's how moderators find out about forum violations. I'm a moderator on a different site if you're wondering how I know this. |
The tube amps that were preferred are less than $8K for the PAIR. This person just got an all out, very latest McCormack DNA 0.5 and thinks its the best amp....tube or solid state...he has ever heard. The DNA amps are not produced anymore so you have to find a used one and send it to Steve and have him do all his latest mods and tweaks.....apparently, everything is rebuilt. Here is a review of some other persons mod to his DNA-1 https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/24/240679.htmlModders rule....he he You omitted his statement: - Soundstage width and depth presentation not quite as “big” as some other reference-level amplifiers.
Did you read the 10 Audio review I posted? He does not think it is anywhere near as good as his Benchmark or many other amps.....only rated it an 8 on his 10 scale. There are tons of people who have sold stock IceEdge module amps (Mivera amps, for instance) as these stock IceEdge amps did not compete in their system. I am not saying you should not buy the IceEdge based Rouge and sent it to me. Just trying to give some perspective. Truth is not a guessing game. In my direct experience, the modded IceEdge are very good. Stock, I found it boring and Blah. |
ricevs,
Thanks for posting the hometheaterhifi review of the IV7. His reference amps are the BAT and Pass, which are euphonic. All the musical and movie examples he cites show more clarity/detail from the IV7 than from his reference amps. At the end, he claims that the IV7 still has a tiny bit of treble grain. This shows a lack of understanding of HF detail. The real thing--live unamped instruments and voices--can be quite irritating heard at close range where microphones are placed even at only moderately loud SPL's. Many euphonically oriented listeners say that the unpleasant HF detail is treble grain. I interpret that review as 100% glowing enthusiasm, if you know how to review the reviewer. It is still useful, and I commend his descriptions of musical examples.
As for your one customer who preferred his $14K/pr tube amps to the EVS1200, you know what I would say to that. Everyone is entitled to his preference, but so far, I have not heard anyone who did an A/B of an IceEdge 1200 AS1 amp with any expensive "SOTA" amp say that such a "SOTA" amp had better clarity/information retrieval. The most informative person is zephyr24069 who didn't have the Esoteric Grandioso M1 mono blocks at the same time as his Legacy IV4 ultra, and made a judgment in retrospect that they were comparable. But he said that the Esoteric A-02 stereo was warmer. So I'll go on record here and say that nobody has yet heard any amp of better clarity/detail than the best implementations of IceEdge 1200 AS1. The highbrow types that own and dealers who sell, uber expensive amps would never submit to an A/B with a cheap great class D amp and report the results in an unbiased manner. Their egos and businesses are at stake. |
tweak1,
As I understood your earlier post, the WW optical cable seemed to be the factor rounding off the original "hot" sound of the EVS1200. Which cable produced the "hot" sound?
As you know, my limited experience of GaN with the Merrill Element 114 only, showed warmish sound. I am certainly open to hearing about other GaN amps, but so far, the IceEdge 1200 module seems to be SOTA. |
@viber6 Keep in mind the dac in the now ~ 10 y/o 105 is far from SOTA, as is the AA dac/pre, meaning a significant dac or dac/pre upgrade might well be more accurate without being hot, but... Typically, dac/pres are a rare breed, and separates may, or may not, be a significant upgrade, depending on additional; iso devices, power cords and cabling. Alas, those are $$$$$, and since everything is a compromise, one must choose their poison based on wallet. Underwood is now selling a wide range of Audio-GD kit. Their R2R dacs and preamps look excellent, with extraordinary build quality. Their
R2R-1 FPGA PCM/DSD DAC @ $1,199.00 might be an upgrade to my now 5 y/o AA DDP-1. For the well heeled;
R7HE MK2 State of the art Resistor Ladder DAC FPGA controlled upgradable DAC w/regenerative power supply
$4990.00
https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/audio-gdhth |
@dougeyjones
I have had a number of removed posts reinserted after contacting AGon. Some of these mods are way too PC
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Sounds like an archaic comment from someone who's only heard cheap crap. Some of the top high end speakers being made today, like Dutch & Dutch 8C or HEDD Type 20 use Class D amps and sound spectacular, refined, accurate. Go back to 1985 and enjoy your life. |
