Interesting ASR review of small GR Research speaker kit
I bounce between various kinds of analysis — more subjective listening reports, more quantitative measurement analyses and, my favorite, those that combine both strategies to tell a useful story about audio products.
Amir of ASR has just done a very powerful takedown of a fairly inexpensive kit being sold by Danny at GR Research. Not only does he prove his point about the speakers, he also makes (to my mind) a very convincing case that Danny put his finger on the scale in how he reported his own measurements.
I'm not in any camp — Danny's or Amir's or anyone else's. What I appreciate is thoroughness and meticulousness in exposition. Danny does that in his own videos. (Again -- to me. I'm really still learning and cannot easily spot gaps in argument in this subject matter.)
I know people with some of GR's best kits — and I've heard one of them. They sounded incredible. I've watched a bunch of Danny's videos where he criticizes other companies; I've come away thinking, "Wow, he really revealed some of the grift embedded in that product."
But here, the tables are turned, it seems, on Danny. I hope he responds, both to defend his reputation and methods, but also because it will set in relief where some of the distance may be between these two dominant online figures' methods in assessing what makes for a good speaker.
"but the fundamental point was that the performance was poor relative to other DACs costing less." @barjohn You were asking for an example of his pathetic reviews & I gave you one. Note that he never bothered to listen to this DAC, just measured it & spouted out his typical BS for his audiophile hating audience to consume as gospel. |
Yes, on a fairly regular basis. Some of the most popular threads on ASR are when he reviews highly rated expensive audiophile gear and it doesn't measure well, and everybody gloats about Amir's "takedown". One that threw everybody for a loop was when Amir reviewed the Wilson Audio TuneTot. It didn't measure well, but Amir liked how it sounded and gave it his recommendation.
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this comment made all of this conversation a bit too surreal. that level of ignorance helps you realize just how unimportant all the view points of people truly are. |
I didn't need ASR opinion to know this speaker wasn't anything I would be interested in. I think the main point is it isn't a "Giant killer" by any stretch of the imagination. Anyhow they are buying and a well known speaker builder, the same guy who built these, have purchased a $95 set to put together for comparison. |
@james633 Thank you for a helpful contribution to the discussion, and especially for identifying those qualities of any speaker that are important and that can be measured. Speaker designers and those who evaluate speaker designs have learned to test single speakers for just those attributes you list. I’m not so sure about those who sell them however. Danny at GR Research strikes me as more a salesman than an engineer. I found Amir’s discussion of how to interpret the graphs quite helpful, and especially on how to ‘cheat’ by manipulating the test parameters. |
There is a very interesting thread on ASR at the moment where consumers who purchased a Topping PA5 are finding that 30% of them fail very quickly. The minion master recommended this product and now neither he nor the manufacturer have the courage to face the unhappy purchasers. The silence is deafening. |
As many (most) have noted... how any component "measures" does not determine whether it sounds good to the listener, or not - that is just a FACT! More often than not, a component that sounds superb does not measure well... and one that does... not so much. Though... some metrics are relevant (e.g. impedance, efficiency, noise, damping factor)... to, among other things, determine how well components "match" one another (i.e. system matching or synergy matters most). Tube components often measure poorly - though - they often sound the best, depending on the entire set up. And... excessive noise can obscure detail resolution, etc. While poor damping factor can ruin bass response and control. So... consider selected metrics... when setting up your system... but... the sound that you finally achieve is all that matters. In fact... you will do better in assessing components from reviews, shows, manufacturers’ suggestions, and YouTube videos - determining the type of sound you prefer and can achieve. In fact - the comments of Nelson Pass in this thread sum it up quite well:
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ASR's comment about square edges on the cabinet. Look at the latest review in TAS, the Stenhiem $72,000 speaker has square edges, along with Harbeth and many others which I think are some of the ugliest speakers out there, and I don't like the sound of the 1's I have heard. We are talking about a $300 speaker here. Sure, the winding of the coil might not be perfect, the $100 woodwork might not be furniture grade, but it's a $300 speaker. |
We are talking about a $300 speaker, right? Not sure if ASR is up for reviewing speakers but if you look at the latest TAS issue that has the Stenhiem $72,000 speakers that he thought were the cats meow, and they had square edges, as well as many other speakers like Harbeth, which I think are very ugly and I don't like the sq, just my opinion. Ok the windings aren't perfect, the cabinet isn't furniture grade, but again, it's a $300 speaker. I think this reviewer might have a grudge against Danny/GR research |
I don't believe this is correct. Please corroborate your allegation with substantive evidence. |
Noske- that is just my opinion. Looking at the video, the reviewer didn’t like what Danny was telling him regarding how measurements are taken. I think this upset the reviewer. Plus, a while back, Danny called out reviewers for not doing appropriate tests for his speakers which also p$ssed off many reviewers. I have seen less intensive reviews for $100k speakers, all of this for a $300 speaker. |
@rbstehno Thankyou. I don’t watch videos, I prefer written words, so what you say I cannot comment on. This is a copy and paste of a few select quotes written by Amir. I have no comment as to whether a grudge or any manner of hostility may be written into it - that is for the reader to interpret with a sense of due process and common sense.
A fully finished pair costs $1,038. I am inclined to think that is relevant in the circumstances (what is their intended use?) and to keep the arrow straight. |
Most of you are responding like petulant children that don't like what someone else says. Guess what, it's an opinion, you don't have to draw anything from his conclusions or opinions about how they measure, the graphs are useful for people who like quantifying what speakers or amplifiers do and don't do. It's a resource to use. Most of you honestly act like bose people which is sad, and you all could do the audio community good by not seeming so snobbish |
I watched the video and Amir is a story teller. He does not just present the measurements he tells us if they are good or bad. His interpretations of the measurements appear highly subjective. In this and other reviews he discounts certain measurements when they don't fit his narrative. And the comments, his cult of followers getting their schadenfreude rush.
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These days when I google reviews for an audio product and links come back for ASR, I just ignore them. I’ve read enough ASR reviews to know how little they correlate to the actual sound of audio gear....and music itself. Reviewers like that spew graphs and numbers but rarely even try to articulate what they hear when they listen to the item under review. IMO the worst is when they promote measurements & stats as a complete replacement for the subjective listening experience. Human hearing just doesn’t work that way. Then there’s the fact that several ASR reviews have been rather thoroughly debunked, establishing a pattern of bias and incompetence by their reviewer. I don’t like it when people pose as audio gurus whose statements explain everything and must be believed in toto. I don’t drink that koolaid... |
Not up to wood working/ cabinet build, but have up graded cross overs. To any/ all that have built speaker kits , I would appreciate advice/ suggestions as to where to begin. I had no trouble with & really appreciated the improvement in sound quality of the Volti upgrade to my 70’s vintage used K-horns. Thanks for any suggestions, Jay |
GR-Research works with third parties to create flat packs for their speaker kits. These still need to be glued and clamped and finished in some way, but this can be done with minimal tools. It took me 2-3 weeks spending an hour or so most evenings to build my pair of NX-Oticas and Triple Threat subs. This combination sounds better to me than any system I've owned. There are also some third party builders that will build the cabinets for you with very high quality professional finish if you don't want to do any woodworking. That's what I did for my pair of GR-Research NX-Studios for my bedroom system. Another brand of kits I've heard/read good things about is CSS Audio, particularly their subs. They don't offer anything as high end as GR, but for moderately priced speakers, they look really nice. |
