Interconnects and non-believers

Is The Cable Company Still in business? Sounds interesting to try some good cables if you already have a good stereo.

https://www.cnet.com/news/can-expensive-audio-cables-improve-the-sound-of-a-hi-fi/

unreceivedogma"”there have been many instances where cable differences have been scientifically shown, proven and established these include measurement based tests as well as double blind, scientific controlled double blind listening tests and yes these are reproduceable”

show me even one. I asked you already. You have failed to substantiate your position, one that I regard as a placebo-induced theological stance."

You are obviously suffering from some juvenile impatience combined with a self-righteous indignation so you would be best advised to 'cool your heels' and leave your religious fervor at the door if what you truly seek is knowledge Google is your friend and their is abundant science available that shows cable differences scientifically proven in repeatable, scientific verifiable listening tests so you can stop with your pronouncements and preachings.

here's some reading for you that may impart some knowledge if you can open up that steel trap of a brain for a bit. You're welcome. You can STFU now.

Prof,
To answer your question, I personally like aalenik quote better. It was spot on. My point being, I don't go to the digital section of this forum to argue with them that analog is better.

Peace

prof,

I do see how my comments could be considered offensive. The “ I have news for you” phrase was poorly chosen.
But my choice of words is a reaction to those who categorically deny that there are differences in the sound of cables.  I feel such a position is indefensible. There are those, offensive to me, who stand righteousnesly on the platform of science and measurements to “prove” their point.  There are parameters in sound that probably cannot yet be scientifically measured. Accordingly, the ear has to be the final arbiter.
I’m not shilling for so-called “boutique” cables, nor do I claim that the more you spend, the better the cable.  I’m merely stating that there IS a difference.

Alas Prof, scientists and engineers, be they musicians, recording engineers, whatever, just not welcome here at least by the loudest voices. So probably best to hang more with the DIY groups. Ciao.

I think I solved this perplexing enigma as why I hear obvious differences with cables and fuses, and others think it is crazy.

Only last week I decided to try a new preamp ... the brand I will not mention.  When I had it in my system it sounded pleasant and sweet.  But, it masked any change I might try.  That is when I realized that when some people can not hear differences of cables... they really can't. 

boxer12,

"Guys, if you don’t hear a difference... just don’t spend your $$, and let everyone else make their own decisions. You don’t need to make your opinion into a crusade"

The above quote is solid advice

So you don’t see any "crusading" about the original post? It’s rather obviously out to persuade (if not outright castigate) cable skeptics.
But if a skeptic speaks up it’s a "crusade?"

What if the quote you supported went like this:

Guys, if you hear a difference (between cables), just spend your $$ and let everyone else make their own decisions. You don’t have to make your opinion into a crusade."

Can I trust you would find that equally "solid advice?" Or is it only solid advice for one side of the opinion spectrum?

And if you would endorse the version I just wrote as well, then what should that imply about those who hear differences in cables? That they should stop talking about it, and posting all the claims that they heard differences? Certainly it would at least seem to implicate the OP as crusading.

See, this is the problem with saying only to one viewpoint "please shut up, we don’t need to hear your view."

It’s hard to be consistent.

The main problem is that aalenik’s post contained a sort of strawman: That people giving their own skeptical view are in some way "not letting" everyone else make their own decisions. Who isn’t being allowed to make their own decisions? It’s just that when some people voice their own skeptical view of cable differences, it seems to p*ss off those who are in to hearing the differences, and they want the skeptic to just button up.
Why can’t someone take hearing another view without it "ruining" or "stopping them making their own decision?" Knowledge is power, and it’s likely that views on both sides of the debate contribute some knowledge, so anyone can come to his or her own conclusions.

rvpiano,

My response to aalenik was meant to address the general concept of sonic differences between cables.  And since most of that debate centers around the claims of high end cables,  which we all know to be more expensive than the norm - I was referencing those.

That said, I can see how when I mentioned your post I conflated the issue of "higher prices" with your claim about "differences between cables."   Sorry.  That was sloppy of me.

That said, your claim that "There are vast differences" obviously falls within that much debated arena (which is why you made the post in the first place - acknowledging there are skeptics).  So, money aside, it's still an example of what I was arguing:  That if you voice an opinion that is in line with "cable obviously make sonic differences" then no one blinks an eye, even when it's made in a challenging (even derisive) way.  But should a skeptic voice some skepticism, he is accused of being dogmatic, harassing and out to wreak the fun of other people.  A sort of "sit down and shut up" implication if you don't go with the flow.

"Guys, if you don’t hear a difference... just don’t spend your $$, and let everyone else make their own decisions. You don’t need to make your opinion into a crusade"

The above quote is solid advice 

Prof,  I agree that the big names in cable are way too expensive.  I don't think I would spend the same amount again on my Transparent cables.  Good thing is, they have remained in place during the evolution of my system, so I now consider them a good value over time.  
Yes, the newbie should not be thrown off their goals by daunting prices but should also be aware of "...the limitations of inferior system interconnections."  Common advice is to "nail down the speakers", or "nail down your front end".  Connections tend to come in last, but not least--I consider the total of my interconnections as important as a component, in that, everything is additive.  
Not sure of what Belden offers in grain-free copper, but not sure what Transparent uses, either.  With today's ultra-pure copper available in DIY, I would also construct a speaker cable before buying.  I did find that OCC copper in bulk AC cable gave me the sweet clarity I was looking for and would recommend building before buying.  Interconnects are more complex but would be a good project.   

prof,

Despite, your seeming erudition, you ignore the facts.
Nowhere in my original post do I indicate, or even infer that you have to “spend money on high end cables.” In your ardor, you misstate what was written.
My statement merely avers that “there are differences in cables.”
Nowhere! Is there even a mention of “high end.”
Indeed, in a later post, as a response to a similar challenge,  I indicate that the price I spent is about the same as the one I replaced.

Please, next time, please get your facts straight.

aalenik,

Guys, if you don’t hear a difference... just don’t spend your $$, and let everyone else make their own decisions. You don’t need to make your opinion into a crusade.

This is a very common reply and I think it reflects a strange imbalance, or bias, operating in these types of forums.

So long as one is claiming cables make a difference, they can happily post about the superiority of any cable they buy over others and it’s all accepted in good cheer. There are thousands of such posts made on audiogon and other high end forums.

But should someone have an alternative view - that they are not convinced of the wisdom of spending lots of money on the high end cables everyone is lauding - well then THAT person’s view is seen simply as negative and harassing, even dogmatic and evangelical. Or, conversely, a heretic has snuck into the pews.

Even if a more skeptical opinion is couched in a way that is no stronger than any of the many "cables OBVIOUSLY make a difference" posts, it becomes an occasion for the "stop harassing us!" replies.

Even look at the OP of this thread. It’s as "evangelical" and challenging to those who don't spend money on high end cables as anything a skeptic would write. (Even suggesting anyone who disagrees is deluded or dogmatic).

But is it greeted as obnoxious, harassing or pushy by the folks who agree cables make a big difference? Apparently not. So long as a post aligns with that bias that high end cables obviously make sonic differences from lower priced cables, then it’s "Well...yeah...of course...what’s the problem?"

jafreeman,

IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects.
Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections.

The thing that tends to get buried in the effusive praise for audiophile cables is that a good cable, that can send a high quality signal, just isn’t that hard to achieve. It doesn’t take thousands of dollars. It takes mostly getting the right cable for the job.

Take, for instance, Belden cables. They were founded in 1902. So they’ve been making cables for well over a 100 years and they are standard fare in the professional recording/broadcasting industry. These guys know more than a little bit about how to construct a cable with the required properties to pass along all sorts of different signals with high fidelity.

And they are not charging anything like the crazy prices your local high end dealer will charge you.

I needed a fairly long run of speaker cable so I chose Belden 5000 series 10 guage for it’s low resistance, high conductivity (which was probably overkill even for what I needed).

I’ve had expensive cables in my system (before I switched to the longer run of Belden I had little need to buy cable as I had audiophile buddies giving me various cast off or spare high end speaker cable, or just lending me stuff - some being the garden-hose-thick variety).

Does my sound "suffer" from having gone to meagre Belden cable ("meagre" as in "industry standards quality"....)?

Not that I can tell. My system sounds a glorious, open, detailed as any other system I’ve had.

And as I’ve said, when I go to listen to other systems - and since I used to review a bit myself I still have friends who are reviewers and aside from having a parade of great gear, they usually cabled up with the best of the best (e.g. Nordost etc.) and my system sounds just as good - as my pal with vasty more expensive cabling often acknowledges.   I've also auditioned speakers in a good high end audio store - hooked up to expensive cables - and then at my own home, and found no loss of fidelity due to my lower priced cabling.  So there is no apparent lack of fidelity holding back my system from not having spent thousands of dollars on upmarket audiophile cables.

That’s not to say (as I feel I must repeat) that "cables never sound different." I think there are plausible reasons some cables can sound different (though many of the reasons given by high end companies seem like quite a stretch). But the point I’m making is that cables are not some Black Art. The main body of knowledge behind constructing good cables has been known for a long time. As I said: all those incredible sounding classic audiophile recordings were made with cables before all this high end stuff started coming out.

I just think that it’s good to offer some other perspective, as newbies coming to the average audiophile site will tend to take away a message that, unless they spend a lot on audiophile cables, their system won’t be high fidelity. And that the more they spend on speakers and other equipment, well the more they have to spend on cables.

Elizabeth, I agree that you will not feel you got your money's worth by spending that much.  You can build one for a lot less using, e.g., Furutech plugs (screw-clamp terminations) and UP-OCC bulk cable.   

So true!
I much prefer "rock" trolls......

Cable trolls are some of the most boring trolls. 

Muddythink:

”there have been many instances where cable differences have been scientifically shown, proven and established these include measurement based tests as well as double blind, scientific controlled double blind listening tests and yes these are reproduceable”

show me even one. I asked you already. You have failed to substantiate your position, one that I regard as a placebo-induced theological stance. 

Cables and cords are often the afterthoughts of building a system.  You finally make that speaker and amp purchase, etc, and the audio sales person says, "What are you using for cables?"  I once replied that I had some old, large-gauge Monster speaker cables and would reuse those.  A bit alarmed, my retailer said, "Well--those would be a MINIMUM."
  
Over time and with changes in gear,  I realized he was right. I wasn't happy with the sound of my Maggie 2.5's and had saved enough for the lower end of a high-end brand, and I was hooked.  I have made two upgrades along that line since and have built my own power cords with the excellent DIY cable and connectors now out there.  

Along with a clean power supply, quality connections are an absolute necessity to keep you from chasing after different components to get where you want to be.  In the end, they save you money. Again, from the owner's manual for ARC REF 210's:     

IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects.
Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections.

 

>>>>"....as well as double blind, scientific controlled double blind listening tests and yes these are reproduceable ...."

Well cool! Share some references and links and I would be truly happy to be updated!

playmore"... I suggest that, in the difference of cable issue there ARE not (yet) observable phenomenon in the non-biased reproducible sense respected by scientists. So belief system, sure, no sense in arguing."

Well of course you are entitled to your cherished beliefs but your statement inaccurate there have been many instances where cable differences have been scientifically shown, proven and established these include measurement based tests as well as double blind, scientific controlled double blind listening tests and yes these are reproduceable but it is easier for so many such as yourself to cling to your faith based convictions and of course you are free to think as you please.

playmore,

I agree that the debates that are often depicted as "objectivists vs subjectivists" have the character of a religious vs non-believer debate, and they are on the continuum of the debate between religion and science.

The operative words, fairly presented by the OP are "Non-Believers" .

To the poster who derided the scientists who make judgments  ".....without considering  observable phenomena" I suggest that, in the difference of cable issue there ARE not (yet) observable phenomenon in the non-biased reproducible sense respected by scientists. 
So belief system, sure, no sense in arguing. Enjoy your religion, be it conventional, alternative, new age whatever, enjoy your cables. But do not conflate with science and engineering.
And BTW lots of "scientists and engineers" pray at least occasionally, self included. Agree life is not ALL science!
Elizabeth, I truly could not tell if your comments on HIV and health were parody/satire or genuine.

I just put in some Mogami 2549 rca's from my cdp to my SEP amp. I picked them up for $20, figuring it's always nice to have some cables lying around. I'm going to buy some more, they sound better than the BJ LC1's I was using. Mainly they have more presence up top, which also gives the illusion of soundstage a boost. Nice, since the EL34's roll off a bit up there. You don't always have to spend $$$ to find an improvement in cabling.

unreceivedogma"I’m probably old enough to be your granddaddy."

If that were true you’d be dead I think you are in second or third grade "grammar school" or maybe fourth but that’s about it based on what you say here but you sure are one of the local experts here about dogma you are all about faith, belief, and fervor over what you believe to be true.

unreceivedogma
Geoffkait I’ll never catch up to you. You must not have to work for a living. I’m busy with a job that’s trying to make an impact on the world and that takes up 12 hours of almost every day.

I just assumed you worked for Target or Chipotle. I hope they pay you overtime. OMG, are you doing all this posting from work?! Whoa!

Ciao!

I was going to guess a lot older. 

Clearthink, the alleged proselytizing was simply meant to be a turn of phrase designed to put things in perspective, but you're running with it. Says more about you than me.

And btw I'm probably old enough to be your granddaddy. I used to brag about being at the Hendrix New Year's Eve show at the Fillmore, now it just dates me.

K, I've really got to get back to work. Have a good weekend.

elizabeth"The entire World up to Humans was survival of the fittest. Humans, particularly Christians, have decided to save the unfit, so they can reproduce the most, and the well off and fittest, seem to have pretty much stopped reproducing. So if you want to help this cause, please send your money to the starving so they can make more starving babies!!"

One thing to remember Elizabeth is that the apparent proselytizers here are mostly children in the second or third grade of American grammar school and they are trying to pretend to be something they are not it is a fact of the Internet and they are not really to be taken seriously and then they go away when they're moms find out what they are doing one of them had they're mom suspend they're posting privledges when she found out the boy was flunking some of his classes and would have to repeat a grade! Of course there are some true adults here who behave the same way with they're evengelical repetition of their belief systems which they insist others accept, embrace and promote and some of them are obviously disturbed in the extreme it is actually very sad.

uberwaltz"Can't we all just get along?"

There are some disturbed people here they do not want to "get along" they want to insult us for spending money on our Music Reproduction Systems rather than support they're charitable causes such as helping the poor, the downtrodden, the disadvantaged as they do because they think they are superior to the rest of us!

So much angst.
Can't we all just get along?

unreceivedogma"not that I have the time to do that mind you."

Of course you do not have the time you are too busy with your charitable efforts to support the poor, the downtrodden, the disadvantaged with your donations rather than spend time, money or effort on your Music Reproduction System it is increasingly obvious that you are another of the second or third grade "grammar school" children who show up here every so often to instruct others while you pretend to be an adult but it is obvious that you are anything but that! It is so unfortunate that you will probably not read this because you are "too busy" for us but school will let out for you soon, right?

clearthink still can’t think clearly, but he’s clearly as argumentative as geoffbait.

As I said, and is obviously in need of repeating for clearthink - maybe he is suffering from emotional depravations that incline him to argue instead of listen and discuss (if he did, he might be inclined to ask why someone would prefer a Koetsu in many listening situations instead of his van den Hul, arguably one of the most analytical cartridges out there) - my opinions are of my own, and not those of my company, audiogon, certainly not of my wife, lol... etc etc

btw since you made the claim about a scientific test of the Koetsu that somehow makes it such a poor cartridge, please produce the test. Not that it matters: I'm sure there are tests that I could pull that would refute it, not that I have the time to do that mind you.

As long as you hear a difference and it is worth it to you, you should buy them.  

unreceivedogma"I'm too busy to invest more time in this nonsense, you will have to have the last word.'

I am most pleased to see that you are busy with active pursuits that will help you support the poor, the downtrodden, the disadvantaged with your donations and charity efforts good for you! I am amused almost beyond words that you find it irrelevent that your favorite phono cartridge has been scientifically established to be distorted and colored while also trying to convince us that you're determinations, conclusions and pronouncements are to be accepted, embraced and designated as truth you are quite full of dogma as you're name here claims!

clearthink, I'm too busy to invest more time in this nonsense, you will have to have the last word.

I don’t doubt that you perceived a discernable difference. The issue is our auditory system varies among listeners. Then add the fact that as we celebrate too many birthdays our sense perception( both seeing and hearing) declines.

Cost versus value. That’s all in the ears of the beholder.

unreceivedogma"With regard to personal and subjective: learn to read what people are writing. I said “I FOUND”. If YOU want to spend $12,000 on connects, be my guest. I’d prefer to help the poor in Latin America."

That is so wonderful for you that you help the poor, the downtrodden, the disadvantaged you must be a very sensitive and special person so nice for you!

"With regard to Koetsu being “hopelessly colored”: wow. Just wow. You are sounding silly now, and are trying way to hard to prove your point, since - assuming for the moment that your claim is true - it’s irrelevant to the point that I’m making"

If you want us to accept your determinations, conclusions and pronouncements it is very relevent to the underlying discussion that your phono cartridge of choice is one that can scientifically be shown to be not only hopelessly colored but one of the most colored series of cartridges ever manufactured of course if you prefer distortion and exaggeration in your Music Reproduction System output that is fine but it is not something that many people here seek they are looking for accuracy and musicality and what you have is colored and distorted my sensitive, giving  and charitable friend!

@geoffkait lol. I think his handle is a combination of “unreceive dogma.”

Geoffkait I’ll never catch up to you. You must not have to work for a living. I’m busy with a job that’s trying to make an impact on the world and that takes up 12 hours of almost every day. 

As for spelling, is that the best you can do? I’ve hung around here almost as long as you have, and am quite familiar with your reputation.

I spend 98% of my time here reading what others have to say. Wise people tend to keep their ears open and their mouths shut. Clearly a lesson you have yet to learn. Ciao. 

me thinks clearthink is not thinking clearly.

With regard to personal and subjective: learn to read what people are writing. I said “I FOUND”. If YOU want to spend $12,000 on connects, be my guest. I’d prefer to help the poor in Latin America.

With regard to Koetsu being “hopelessly colored”: wow. Just wow. You are sounding silly now, and are trying way to hard to prove your point, since - assuming for the moment that your claim is true - it’s irrelevant to the point that I’m making, which is simply that it is a high end and revealing cartridge. I know of none more revealing, but it is not my only cartridge. I have a van den hul and a Benz as well, and they are also very revealing. I use them accordingly to the program material I am listening to. I’ll let you guess which is which.

unreceivedogma sure is barking a lot for a low poster. Is there a full moon? By the way isn’t unreceiveddogma misspelled? 

unreceivedogma"I’ve tried expensive cables. I found the claims made by the manufacturers to be wildly overstated and nowhere near worth the cost. As for newbees argument that maybe my system is not revealing enough, I have a Koetsu Onyx, and components to match."

Whether something is worth the cost is a purely personal and subjective judgement and determination so while you’re conclusion is valid for you it can not be assumed to be valid for someone else as for Koetsu phono cartridges while some of them can sound wonderful when properly installed, aligned and optimized they are hopelessly colored and do not present an accurate signal corresponding to the input as can be easily demonstrated with proper equipment.

Boxer12, I’ve tried expensive cables. I found the claims made by the manufacturers to be wildly overstated and nowhere near worth the cost. 

As for newbees argument that maybe my system is not revealing enough, I have a Koetsu Onyx, and components to match. 

dacer"No snake oil magic."

Actually the truth here has been shown that only those with no experience are making the claims of snake oil magic.

generatorlabs"Can you take one of your new cables, put it on one channel and take one of the old cables and put it on the other channel and then make a high bitrate FLAC recording with this setup so the rest of us can hear what you are talking about? We have the technology folks. Why hasn't some one done this already."

The reason that it may not have been already done if in fact it has not already been done is that this is not necessary to prove what it is that you seem to be seeking to prove and of course there is nothing at all to prevent you yourself from conducting this experiment after all you say you have the technology so why don't you do it rather than wonder in amazement that someone has not already done it for you.