Integrated amp: Component weight
I'm an older guy with a bad back looking to spend $5-10K on an integrated amp. Before I get into functionality, connectivity, or even sound quality, my threshold considerations are price, power, and weight. My 86dB-sensitivity Harbeths do best with the equivalent of a 200-300wpc solid-state unit, I need to drive a variety of analog & digital sources, hope to keep weight under 40lbs, and want to stay away from "classic" Class D designs. Been there, done that, D simply didn't work in my system.
My question: Does anybody know of any published listing of amplifiers that compares products by weight or size?
So far, I've only found a few 15-35lb models that meet this initial filter, from sellers like Ayre, Devialet, & Bryston, and, surprisingly, even ARC. However, there are connectivity & functionality issues that make these otherwise-terrific options a poor fit.
Any suggestions?
i have similar speakers, Stirling Broadcast LS3/6, and two Hegels, 390 and 90. Yes, the sound with 390 is better, but 90 does an excellent job, too. I would suggest that you might not need as much power and that Hegel 190 or similar would do just as well -- old guy, old ears, likely you wan't hear the difference.
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Hi @cundare2 i am sure all back surgery different. My first replaced two lumbar discs, and I was laid up 5 weeks. I could get up and down steps though. My second replaced two cervical discs and had II had a laminectomy and foramenotomy of two more lumbar discs. This has been much easier, out of action for one weeK. Good luck! I have had the benchmarks in for direct comparison in my system, and they were dry and sterile compared to my Audionet Max amps by far. Of course they are smaller and less expensive. Again good luck. I like your Ayre thinking. Let us know! |
What associated equipment was in your system when you were evaluating the Benchmarks? Are you talking about the LA4 and AHB2? If I went that route, I’d probably add a DAC3 and some third-party streamer, so I’d be getting into the $15,000 range, not including interconnects and power cords. At this point, weight, SQ, and connectivity are more important than cost, though. (Within reason, of course!) Glad to hear that your surgery went well overall. I'm looking at something similar, both upper & lower spine, but at this point, have no idea what to expect. It's hard to find good surgeons in this state, at least on a par with the best in places like NYC, Boston, or Chicago, so I'm hesitant to pull the trigger. But I definitely don't want to have to deal with a hundred-pound chunk of iron in the house if & when I do have to go under the knife. |
Actually, if I went with Hegel, the model I'd be most interested in would be the H590, currently selling for about half the price of its H600 replacement, which would leave plenty of room for an external DAC/streamer to replace what is reputed to be the 590's not-so-great internal DAC. I'm sure that this would be a great fit with my system. Unfortunately, the weight would be an issue. |
Easy. Aestheix Mimas. Weighs a bit less than 50 lbs. has five analog inputs which can be configured for true balanced or RCA. Can be ordered with a very good DAC or Phono board or both. Hybrid, tube preamp solid state power amp. Under $10k with the digital board. 150 wpc and almost 300 wpc into 4 ohms. I have one driving Dynaudio Heritage Special’s . Has a good headphone amp that can be upgraded. FYI I had a Devialet. The Mimas is better IMO |
I think it is all about the speaker. My current speaker had the same bass response with the AHB2 (stereo) and the 110 lbs CODA #16 (a bass monster on all speakers I tried) |
With the Benchmark gear I have much better experience with their low cost XLR between amp and preamp ($200 for 20 feet). I use Audience XLR and RCA from the source to the preamp. The BM gear is AES48 compatible (for XLRs). I use Benchmark XLR from the DAC3B to the preamp. Though the DAC3B is not the end all of DACs (a little hot but good with Harbeth). The only place where I really want non-BM cables is the speaker cable (I use Audience FrontRow). The BM speaker cable is good on a bright speaker. Using non-BM power cables is something I also never do on BM gear. Other gear, I use non-stock cables. Reviewers may say different, but this how my ears hear the BM gear. I even have some 15-foot amp power cables from BM, very useful, cheap, and sounds fine. On the used market you can hookup the 3 BM components for under $6500 (with BM cables). The form factor is rather small with all 3 units stacked on top, which is fine to do with BM gear. |
@cundare2 Here is another suggestion for your Harbeth. I have heard Harbeth with the very best Luxman gear and liked it, but I knew I would not like it long term. It was too lush. Lots of people like that type of sound and the KRELL K-300i integrated sounds as good as that very expensive Luxman stack I demoed. I owned the K-300i and it can be bought used for around $6000. The DAC is very good, you can do better with an external DAC. The RJ45 streaming was great (not as good as fibre optic) but great for RJ45. The ROON READY was a delight, especially the volume control from my iPhone (it is done as analog on the integrated). The KRELL is sonically the opposite of the Benchmark stack. The KRELL weighs 52 lbs. Read the Stereophile review of the Boulder 866 and see what they say about the KRELL in comparison. The KRELL is a great integrated. I liked it even more than the CODA CSiB I owned. K-300i Integrated Stereo Amplifier Technical Specifications – Krell (krellhifi.com) Not listed above but the first 90 watts are in Class A. It is the KRELL's cool running iBias Class A which sounds as good as my CODA #16 traditional Class A. |
What about the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 integrated amp? Dimensions (Wx H x D): 45 x 10.5 x 36 cm (including connectors) / 17.7 x 4.1 x 14.1 inches Weight: 8.2 kg / 18.1 lb Description: 2-channel integrated amplifier and audio processor Power handling: 2×400 W RMS @ 4Ohm / 2x200W RMS @ 8Ohm Max output current: 40A
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@webking185 Actually, the Benchmark AHB2 weighs 12.5 pounds. I hear what you’re saying about weight, but consider that different technologies have different weight characteristics. There are plenty of fabulous pieces of Class AB gear, from the likes of Ayre, bel Canto, Bryston, Benchmark, Devialet, and others. Many get there by using innovative, great-sounding, and highly efficient output-stage design. The one area where weight, I think matters, is power supplies. But there are exceptions to even that rule. & then there are the increasing # of Class D products -- most based on GaN FETs -- that are reputed to have overcome the sonic compromises of earlier D designs. The point is that, IMHO, it’s not reasonable today to make an across-the-board conclusory statement about "heft." Doing so robs you of what might otherwise be a lot of great options. Just something to think about.
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@hgeifman You know, I looked at the Lyngdorf when I first started this search and eliminated for reasons I don’t remember at the moment. Maybe it lacked the ability to drive a headphone amp, active sub, and loudspeakers at the same time, or perhaps it didn’t offer HT bypass?But thanks for the reminder. I'll take another look at your link.
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What about the Parasound Halo HINT 6 Stereo Integrated Amplifier? It weighs 33 pounds. 160 Watts x 2 @ 8 Ohms (RMS, both channels driven) 240 Watts x 2 @ 4 Ohms (RMS, both channels driven) Power amp circuit topology designed by legendary John Curl Direct amplifier input to bypass preamp section High bias class A/AB operation Oversized shielded toroid power transformer. Coax and optical inputs accept PCM up to 192kHz/24-bit Analog bass management with high & low pass crossovers Home theater bypass input for surround sound integration Front panel subwoofer level control Dedicated high current headphone amplifier (TI TPA6120). |
@cundare2 The new KRELL that is represented by the Duo XD lineup is buttery smooth, very powerful, and decently detailed. It is the most relaxing gear I have owned or heard. Do some searches on A’gon on the Duo XD. Read the Stereophile review of the K-300i. those guys can give a better sonic description. Normally I do not like this type of sound, but I remember how much I enjoyed listening to the K-300i and then later the Duo 175XD amp. For me the Luxman c900u | m90u | Luxman DAC | Harbeth was incredibly lush sounding. The Luxman 509x integrated amp on the same speakers and DAC was not as good nor as lush. I used the AHB2 monos with the following speakers:
I also demoed it with the Magico A3 speaker. It was awful with that speaker. Not enough power as a stereo amp (not mono). |
@cundare2 I guess the Aestheix Mimas with its tube preamp and balanced bridged solid state output might be too heavy at 50lbs? You might want to read Neil Gader’s review in the Absolute Sound. FYI I drive my power hungry little Dynaudio Heritage Specials with the Mimas with great success! |
@hgeifman At one time, I lusted over anything that John Curl designed and the Hint6 was a bit of a dream purchase. Now that I have greater financial means, I'm looking at higher-quality gear, more like Ayre & Hegel. But at their price points, all the Halos seem to be great choices. @yyzsantabarbara Thanks for the details. Interesting comments, especially your comments about the KEF + Benchmark combo. The LS50s don't have the Harbeth's LS3/5A heritage, but they do seem to have a lot in common. @axeis1 Yeah, I had to eliminate great-sounding components like the Aesthetix & PrimaLuna tubed gear for the reasons you mention. I read every TAS cover to cover, so I remember Neil's review. Still working on that spreadsheet. Boy, it's complicated sorting through everything -- I love the way Benchmark sometims lists 2 inputs as being 4 in its spreadsheets -- counting the # of jacks, not channels! It takes time to double-check everything. Regardless, this is turning into a very interesting discussion.
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Here’s one reason why it’s been tricky to figure out if the Devialet Expert Pro can be configured into my multi-channel system. Fixed inputs: 1 USB,1 opt; 1 digital XLR Configurable inputs: And all inputs (not sure if that includes both analog & digital) can be configured as home theater bypasses. I need simultaneous HT bypass, sub out, output for headphones (or a headphone amp) out, & inputs for 2-4 analog sources & an outboard streamer. Oh and just for icing, the Devialet product literature is so terse as to be unhelpful. The company seems to want people to figure out if the amp works for them by running a Configurator program that stores connection-setups on an SD card that you insert into the amp. So before you can even figure out if the amp will handle all your other components, you have to go online, learn how to use a configuration application, and proceed by trial-and-error. And when I tried to use the configurator, it had a simple interface, simple in both the best and worst ways: easy to make changes but short on explanations about what those changes do, or why certain combinations are not allowed. Absolute Sound dinged the product for its complicated setup, but I don’t think that tells half the story.
My head hurts.
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How about a Plinius Hautonga (AB)? I think it's about $4-5K. I have it's predecessor, the 8200MKII for 19 years and it is a super reliable great sounding amp. The Hautonga is 30lbs and 200WPC into 8 ohms. Their bigger one, the Haito, is 56 lbs and has 300WPC. They've reduced distribution in the US, but you can still get them. |
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What about this amp? “Daniel Hertz makes only one amplifier – Maria – the very best that Mark Levinson can design. Maria 350 is the stereo (2 channel) model, and Maria 800 is the 4 channel model with active crossovers and time alignment enables for driving bi-amplified speakers. Maria is a single chassis, all in one audio electronics solution, replacing the DAC, preamplifier, power amplifier, headphone amplifier and interconnect cables, fully programmable active crossovers and time alignment are enabled”. ” Specifications
Weight & Dimensions Power output, two channels: |
@cundare2, Someone on Audiogon mentioned this amp and I thought it had many of the items you wanted. Obviously, it is a new product from a new company so more research is required. Mark Levinson is a well know name but questions need to be asked and answered. If possible, I would prefer a USA MADE product if you can find one that works for you. |
I am a dealer for the amps I am about to mention, but I do feel they are worth considering: Margules ACRH-4 - A Class A/B tube hybrid integrated amp using a pair of 12AU7 while including a decent MM phono stage. It is single ended only, no balanced connections. It only delivers 100 into 8 and 160 into 4, but it is also a fairly high current amplifier from what I’ve heard and does a good job controlling amps better than others in its price and power range. It’s under your budget, too. Cambridge EDGE A - Sounds and performs like a Class A amplifier but also is excellent with microdetails at the frequency spectrum. Also British, the Cambridge EDGE series is very synergistic with Harbeth. It is still also only 100 into 8 and 200 into 4, but with Harbeths, I’ve found that high current is more important than high power. This is why they are often paired with tube amps. |
@blisshifi Thanks for the recommendations, but probably not a good fit. I liked Cambridge gear when I was much younger, but this time around, I'm looking at a different level of sound quality, more along the lines of ARC, Ayre, Pass Labs. The Edge, as good as it is at its price point, is probably not a good fit. As for Margules, I'm hesitant. Some years ago I bought a Margules turntable, and found the fit & finish to be so amateurish that I immediately returned it. So I'm a bit gunshy about buying Margules gear mail-order sight-unseen at this point. If you have other ideas for products you sell & have personal experience with, send me a private message. Thanks.
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@cundare2, If you purchase the Ayre EX-2.0 Integrated amp, would you purchase the amp only or include it with the Digital Base (S/PDIF, AES/EBU) with USB port and with the Ethernet port? To be honest, based on the amps recommended on this forum tread, I believe the Ayre EX-8 2.0 amp is your best choice and the amp only weighs 24 pounds.
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I just sold 20K of Pass Labs ...250.8 amp which weighs 100 pounds, and an XP 22 ..2 piece preamp. I bought a Coda Csib V1 which is suggested above multiple times. My big Harbeth's have never sounded better. The synergy between Coda and Harbeth is absolutely amazing. It weighs 55 pounds, but its very easy to move around. The Coda Csib V1 should be on your short list. I have the V1- 150 watts in 8 ohms-doubles in 4-and doubles again in 2 ohms. Absolutely amazing Integrated amp. |
@cundare2 Sorry, I just meant the Margules ACRH-4 only uses single ended inputs and outputs. It’s Class A/B push pull with a tube hybrid buffer stage. I understand your concern regarding quality control and discussed this with the Margules team and the US distributor a lot this year. They have since made some really good improvements in the gear and the last shipment of product I received was on a much greater level of fit and finish than before. Let’s say I had my moments of frustration in the past. Cambridge has a stigma of being mid-fi, but they really did something special with the EDGE line of electronics. I still stand by it, that it performs even beyond its already higher than typical pricing for them, but delivering beyond compared to the competition at the same price. I’d pick the EDGE A over the Ayre EX-8, for instance. I think the EDGE would sound more musical and engaging while still retaining the razor sharp incisive holography that Ayre typically brings I’m not trying to sell you on the EDGE, but rather just give it the respect it deserves when many others dismiss it because it’s associated with Cambridge’s mid-fi track record.
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>If you purchase the Ayre EX-2.0 Integrated amp, would you purchase the amp only or include it with the Digital Base (S/PDIF, AES/EBU) with USB port and with the Ethernet port? Yes, I'd go for the full package. The EX-8's DAC is the only internal DAC on the market (at least in this price range) that I would consider buying instead of a separate. Two trusted friends who've heard it, both of whom, would normally never consider an embedded DAC both gave it surprisingly high praise.
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The Coda is heavier than I would consider, although if it's superb in every other way, I might bite the bullet and consider it. But what about functionality? Does it support the connectivity features that I outlined in my original post? Here's the thing: If I'm gonna consider a 50-pound box, why wouldn't a Hegel be my first choice in that weight class? It's reputed to be a perfect match for Harbeths (Harbeth uses Hegel in its rooms at shows) and has connectivity & functionality second only to Ayre. And, if I recall correctly, is about 45 pounds (compared to Ayre's 24).
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Hope you don't think I was putting down Cambridge. I've been a big fan of the company since Harry started it and have used many Cambridge products in home theaters, on the desktop, etc., with great results. But this time, I'm looking for a major step up, a full electronics upgrade, and am willing to spend maybe $20K for components & cables. The Edge, from what I read, is a real bargain and is a true audiophile amp, especially considering its price. But does it offer the connectivity I need, and is it in a class with $10K boxes from Ayre, Hegel, Levinson, etc.? I don't get the impression that it's the right fit. But you seem to have much more experience than I do with the Edge line. What do you think, given all that? I dunno about Margules. I want to keep an open mind & I"m willing to convince myself if that makes sense. But I have no knowledge at all of the specific model you recommend. Could this be used in a multi-channel system that requires an integrated to offer HT bypass, at least 3 line-level inputs, along with a sub output and the ability to drive an external headphone amp?
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@blisshifi, The OP states he wants an amp under 40 pounds. The Cambridge EDGE A amp Weight is 53.70 pounds meaning it is too heavy. On the other hand, the Ayre EX-8 2.0 amp only weighs 24 pounds. Finding a high quality amp, under 40 pounds, including the OP’s other requirements is not easy. The Ayre EX-8 2.0 amp at 24 pounds is the only amp I found that meets this requirement. It seems every other amp is too heavy. This is a very difficult challenge. I have similar amp weight restrictions. I purchased the Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amp that weighs 36.6 pounds and like it very much. |
@hgeifman The only reason I mentioned the EDGE A is because despite the OP’s weight specification, he also mentioned interest in a 50lb unit, so I figured this one wasn’t far off. :) But yes, it is over 40lb. @cundare2 I’m not sure which Harbeths you have - can you restate if I somehow missed it? I see you don’t have a virtual system in your profile. I like Harbeths, but I find them to be somewhat sweet on top at times, depending on the speaker, which is why I mention the EDGE, which may bring out more clarity. Seeing that you’re in Hawaii, you might have a hard time demoing things, but it’d be best to hear the amp with your speakers in your room before making a purchase. While it will likely control the Harbeths really well, the sonic signature is slightly warm, but also very detailed and incisive, so how that pairs based on your sonic preferences is left to be determined. I have had two customers, for instance, move away from the Hegel H590 to go to an EDGE A integrated, and the H590 is almost double the retail price.
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Yes, you’re right. I was thinking of the Hegel. The EX-8 would probably spec at about 130-140wpc (nominal, of course) for my 6-ohm Harbeths. Thanks for catching that. Harbeth recommends a nominal 25wpc, but also released a video in which the designer/owner of the company powered them with a high-end amp that offered VU meters. You could see that the Harbeths drew upwards of 300 watts on peaks, and the final recommendation was that, although you could get decent dynamics with a lower-powered amp, the entire Harbeth line would do its best with amplification that had plenty of raw power, especially overhead. That's one area where Ayre is outclassed by Hegel, at least in my application. Harbeths have relatively low sensitivity, but other than that, they were deliberately designed to present an easy load. See JA’s measurements in Stereophile. Rememeber that these are thin-walled critters with roots going back to the BBC designs. As an old LS3/5A fan, that was one thing that originally caught my attention many years ago, when I first started thinking about them when I was forced to sell my Quad 57s.
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>I agree with @blisshifi that it would be best to hear the amp with your speakers in your room before making a purchase. Is this possible? Again, no, Howard, absolutely impossible. The fact that that’s not an option is the biggest reason why I started this thread.
> If not, you need an option to return the amp if you do not like it. Yup. You do realize that you’re mansplaining now, right? 😉 I’ve been involved with high-end gear since the 1970s and was actually a frequently published audio reviewer in mainstream magazines throughout the 1990s & 2000s. So I understand the logistics. And tbh, in the case of Ayre in 2024, that may be easier said than done. I’m finding that dealers who have handled Ayre in the past are finding it hard to even obtain product these days -- something not often mentioned on dealership Web sites but made clear when you speak to a dealer on the phone. Perhaps the recent rave reviews of the VX-8 & EX-8 in high-profile venues like Stereophile have increased demand beyond what this small company can keep up with. Anybody got a used EX-8 they'd like to part with? I thought so. Ayre owners seem to want to hang onto their gear for a long time.
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Check out The Music Room. They currently have a 590 for around 5800.00. They are also Benchmark dealers. You’ll see a many other potentials as well. They have a great return policy which would allow you to sample some of these pieces. You might even talk to them and tell them what you are doing and they may have you buy an amp or three and give you some sort of discount on return shipping or something for what you don’t like. |
@geof3 Thanks, that’s good info. I also found a dealer -- one that I’ve had good experiences with it in the past -- that has a no-questions-asked 60-day return policy that includes the Devialet. The Devialet is so impressive in so many ways, but is so tersely documented, possessed of such bizarre configuration options, and based on such unusual circuitry, that, with no chance to hear the thing before buying, I couldn’t consider dropping $10K without a generous return policy. And since I’d have to combine it with an analog front end (and maybe a streamer) of some kind, I’d give the Expert Pro 220 maybe a 50% chance of being a good fit. Nonetheless, it’s such an interesting product with so much potential that I’m sorely tempted. If the 22lb Pass Labs XP-12 preamp only offered a little more connectivity, I'd love to hear what that particular odd-bedfellows pairing would sound like.
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@cundare2 I have purchased several products from The Music Room and they are excellent. Their web site says “New product lines for which TMR is an authorized dealer carry a 60-day satisfaction-guaranteed return policy. Return shipping costs are at the expense of the customer unless the product is defective. Full manufacturer warranties are in effect for these products”. I suggest you ask them for an integrated amp under 40 pounds. please see their preowned list of integrated amps. |
Hi @cundare2 ! Have you considered the Mola Mola Kula? I have the Makua with onboard Tambaqui and it is excellent. While I did sell my matching Kaluga amps in favor of Audionet Max amps, the newer class D in the Kula really do sound nice for a one box light package, and you can get it with the Tambaqui inside. Put a Grimm MU1 streamer and Roon Core in front of it and there you go. I still like your Ayre option but I agree the Devialet is a bit weird. :) |
@fastfreight I’m embarrassed to admit that I didnt' remember hearing anything about Mola Mola, but a quick Google refereshed my memory. At first glance, it looks like a Makua preamp paired with, say, a Devialet might do everything I need, other than, possibly, streaming. I'll continue to investigate. At this early stage, I'm not even sure of pricing, much less specs. I see Herb in Stereophile liked the Mola Mola DAC. Thanks for the heads-up re: a company that almost slipped through the cracks.
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OK, I dug a little into the Mola Mola line and, really, it looks pretty terrific in more than one way. Howevere, I can’t seem to find a price list. There are a few reviews of individual components that list a purchase price at the time of the review, but I can’t find much in the way of current pricing. UPDATE I still can't find a current price list, but my gut feeling is that Mola Mola gear is out of my price range. DAC + pre-amp came in close to $30K a couple of years ago. Worse, this Dutch company's presence in North America is spotty. The company Web site lists only one NA "appointment-only" distributor/dealer that doesn’t list pricing, or much of anything useful that isn’t already on the MM Web site. No idea how service works -- ship back to the Netherlands? Really, really nice-looking products (at least on paper), but probably not a good fit. |
I can understand that...I feel that way (biased) about some amazing gear from other countries. But I say nothing spotty here. Bill Parish at GTT has fantastic service and most of all knowledge. Just talk to him. I think the Makua w Tambaqui is the sweet spot, save a stand alone Tambaqui. So many people have these and love them. Getting the Makua lets you play with different amps now and later. And the Makua is visually stunning. I only stream, no vinyl or other inputs, but still I love the preamp w DAC. If you have an issue, Bill will take care of you. It takes a much more expensive preamp to best the Makua, and the internal Tambaqui is exactly the same as their stand alone Tambaqui. And together it is a value if you consider yourself getting a DAC like the Tambaqui :) |
