In-Room responce measurement with Legacy Focus SE speakers

Nothing attached.  but the differences you describe sound more like differences in 2 amps rather than differences in speakers. Could also be the source compaonents.  The Legacy SE is very easy to drive.  take your amp and signal path componentns over to your dad's house for a test.  apples and apples.  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/amtproductions/53619694364/in/dateposted-public/Thanks for the ideas @carlsbad2 That is a great idea, but unfortunately I am visiting the folks on the other side of the country from where I live, so no go on narrowing the scientific method testing with the exact same gear (smart idea though).

I would imagine room dimensions and pressurization is a huge component as well, is that right, more in regard to the "feel" of notes/frequency reproduction? I honestly thought the woofers in his towers weren’t working from the way things sounded, and felt.

I need to read how to properly link or input images: I am massively screwing that up. Flickr apparently is a no-go?

My system:
Legacy Studio HD, Adcom 555 modified, Bel Canto DAC 2.8, Pioneer PD-65 CD player modified
Room 12x17x9, speakers along long wall, couch against back wall.

The room is often the cause of such issues.  It can be the speakers, of course, but very often having a very reflective room causes it to sound distorting at higher volumes.  The reflections seem to overpower the direct signal.  Good way to test is to compare the listening experience at the normal location and listen also very close to the speakers.

What @erik_squires said. Room reflections are distortion. 

There are a host of reasons this sort of thing can occur and it usually is a combination of factors including, bad speaker design, defective driver, bad amp/speaker match and room acoustics. 

A peak at 100-130 Hz is going to make a system with what I call wet bass. I like my bass dry and always put a 2 dB notch there. What you describe is usually too much energy in the 2 kHz to 4 kHz region which makes a system difficult to listen to at volume and very sibilant. This is a very common room problem. 

Listening to a multidriver system near field is a very bad idea as you start to hear the individual drivers. If you want to get an idea what the speaker sounds like in an anechoic environment take it outside and place the speaker on a 5 foot ladder on soft ground. What a PITA that is. 

DEQX solves the problem by taking a very near field measurement of each driver at 6 inches then measurements from the listening position. From these measurements it can extrapolate what is due to the room and correct for just that and not the sound of the speaker which you do with EQ to taste. This is what your father's system needs, a DEQX Pre 8. Then he can make it sound however he likes. 

@erik_squires  and @mashif  thanks for the input on reflections.  I was wondering a little about that as well, but I discounted it because of the size of the room (to me) is huge vs the speakers in them.  You're right, if I stand near-inbetween the speakers I get a better full range of tones. The speakers are several feet away from boundaries and each other.  However, there really is very very little in 'furnishings; his listening room is a huge finished basement.  It doesn't 'echo' per-se, but it's not like a living room with lots to break up sound. 

Maybe the fatigue aggravation at mid to higher volume (65-70db) is the reflection distortion, and the complete lack of weight and bass is lack of room pressurization?  It nearly sounds like (to me) that the two 12" woofers aren't even running.  I've walked around the space and I can't find any stronger or weaker bass nodes, even along the walls (bare).  When I've done very crude measuring, there is an easy 20db difference from 80-110hz (full range sweep) with 100-120hz being a very prominent mountain peak.   

Can you list his system components?   An expensive yet excellent solution is the Legacy Wavelet II with room correction. Or possible a few acoustic panels on the side wall for early reflections at least? 

It nearly sounds like (to me) that the two 12" woofers aren’t even running.

yeah, that’s a tell-tale sign. What’s happening is you have very long decay times in the mid-treble range due to the size of the room and highly reflective surfaces. As a result your speakers sound unbalanced tonally, plus the distortion-like effects. You can no longer hear details.

It is kind of like watching a movie with the audio out of sync with the video but here the delayed sound is now incoherent with the direct sound, and the more you turn up the volume the more of that delayed sound you’ll hear, especially in the midrange (Fletcher-Munsen curve).

With enough absorbers the details will emerge but so will the bass. That is, you’ll tonally change it so it’s less bright, more bass. Like taking all the veggies out of a stew, all you’ll be left with is the meat.

Alternatively, move the speakers and listening location as far from reflective surfaces as possible. Don’t forget the ceiling and floor as well for absorbers.

Morning @fthompson251 I sure can.  Integrated amp: Rega Ellicit Mk4.  CD Player & DAC: Rega Saturn.  Streamer: iFi Zen Stream.  Speaker wire: Deulund (12').  Turn table: Rega Planar 3. 

I am wondering about room correction software/hardware as well, and I know that Wavelet would be perfect especially for his over all system and room.  He does have some yellow insulation panels that I'll be testing out this weekend.  I was just hoping to get some baseline measurements and comparisons to baseline "what the Focus SE outputs WITHOUT room interaction, first.

Room correction software won't help you much in highly reflecteive environments.  They are better for correcting bass problems, but you can adjust the bass just as well for you by any EQ, such as the Schiit Loki, but you won't fix the reflected sound problem and therefore distortion.

@erik_squires that is EXACTLY what I was wondering, and you articulated all of it perfectly.  In my little living room space, at very normal levels (50-60db), you can still feel the weight of a guitar pluck from low to high strings, and feel metallic strikes, etc.  With his, you hear the note or the pluck....but that's it...you hear it's 'note', and nothing else.  You may 'hear' a finger drag along a string, but you don't feel the sound like on my system/room.  It's almost like I want to put a bunch of big subs everywhere to 'feel' notes/frequencies....not just bass.

That long delay time you mention I think is exactly what's happening.  There isn't 'reverb' or echo, but there is for certain mainly just empty cavern (mostly).  I want to remember watching a couple of well made videos with Darko and a guy in the states who were creating new listening spaces from the ground up, and dealing with this like this.  I'll try to find and re-watch them. 

He has his speakers VERY far from walls (I'm measuring exactly a bit later), but it's easily 6' from front wall, and 7' from side walls, with nearly nothing in the space from the chair forward. 

@erik_squires no I am thinking you are right: there is for sure a bigger need to get the speakers and room mechanically properly tuned: I don't think ANY EQ or DSP would bring out what the speakers are properly capable.  Chances are all those things would do is create distortion somewhere else. 

This looks like a lot, but is fairly straightforward

Legacy

These speakers are high sensitivity 95.4, it is not the amplification.

Use science, facts, to find basic information. Then go from there.

In the end, it’s your and/or his ears to make final adjustments

Measure your space, then measure your father’s space. Hmmmmm. I would tell him you want to know what you are missing, rather than what is wrong with his. You know him best.

1. Inexpensive Sound Pressure Level Meter (they do not have to be perfectly calibrated or accurate, just give you ‘relative answers’ as to the differences of the tested frequencies).

Make sure it has bottom threads for a tripod

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Pressure-30-130dBA-Warranty/dp/B00ECCZWWI/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=9C7f4&content-id=amzn1.sym.225b4624-972d-4629-9040-f1bf9923dd95%3Aamzn1.symc.40e6a10e-cbc4-4fa5-81e3-4435ff64d03b&pf_rd_p=225b4624-972d-4629-9040-f1bf9923dd95&pf_rd_r=HADBE7E3TSGCJCQ5FSB0&pd_rd_wg=0k7W6&pd_rd_r=3cbb90e6-11c0-4da6-9e6c-5eadd5dd7557&pd_rd_i=B00ECCZWWI&th=1

 

2. Test Tones: CD (not LP) this one, Amazing Bytes has 29 1/3 octave frequencies, individually selectable. two of them well priced available now.

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/7290000?ev=rb

 

3. Tripod, position meter at listening position, seated ear level

 

4. record results. I make enlarged copies of the booklet’s page, record the results. compare your initial, father’s initial will tell you something.

5. improve frequency balance, still using measurements.

5a. The Manual has specific information:

https://d2digq31msfd9c.cloudfront.net/uploads/manuals/Focus-SE-Manual-2021_opt.pdf

Pg 7, speaker placement

Pg 21: Bass Equalization

Pg 22: Built-In Fine Tuning (rear toggles switches): Treble: 0, -2db; Bass 0, -2db

5b. refine speaker location and toe-in, still using the meter. Distance from rear/side walls, toe-in;

5c. stuff rear port, what lost? what improved? If stuffed is best, then refine 5b.

5d. further adjustments:

1. preamp tone controls

2. preamp built in equalizer

3. external equalizer with bypass

Mine: dbx 2231: dual channel 31 1/3 octave frequencies; bypass; optional noise reduction.

https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/2231

1. Find a curve that the meter says is best
2. Find a curve that your ears say is best.

I am having a hearing test soon. At age 75, I am sure they will find something(s). After that, I can try using the equalizer without hearing aids. That’s just for me, not listening with you or others. Thus use bypass to get back to ‘normal’

Next, I may get hearing aids, who knows. What refinements when the hearing aids are in?

I bought this version of the DBX from Amazon (already in USA, returnable). Absolutely Identical. I needed XLR/RCA adapters, then I could use my existing cables

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NAK4BE8?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

 

 

 

@mijostyn "Sibilant' is a very good descriptive word for what his room/speaker set up sounds like to me.  As mentioned, to my ears it sounds as if the woofers aren't even functioning.  It's funny you mention about getting an anechoic effect by taking the speakers outside: I had done that at work one summer for our fire crew (we have big old crappy yamaha tower speakers in our gym), and the sound was HORRIBLE. 

OP:

One very useful tool you should also know about is the AM Acoustics Room Mode Simulator. Put your room dimensions in and it will show you the lowest modes. Try to keep your speakers and listening location out of those.

It won't help your reflection problems, but when you have that sorted, the bass will come out and you'll be all nit picky about that too. 😁

 

 

Best,

 

Erik

Yeah, I think that the speakers are too far from the front wall plus their location may have room node cancellation. Try moving them the toward the front wall (behind the speakers) 1 foot at a time to get a rough idea if that improves. His side walls are far enough away but something at the first reflection point to absorb will help. The Rega Ellicit Mk4 is not a high powered amp so it's adequate for power but not going to deliver strong bass with out some room reinforcement. JMHO. Moving speakers is free. You may fin that 4 feet out sounds fuller in the midrange and bass. 

@elliottbnewcombjr Thanks for the idea and links for things!  This is exactly what I am wanting to do, using Room EQ Wizard (REW) just to get a very crude general idea of what the speaker is doing at the listening position with it's ability to play and record a frequency sweep.  I have a mic, and REW generates the sweep itself and records it in sync.  I also think REW has the ability to 'eq' some to the audio being output (audio out from headphone jack or via USB to DAC), so I could theoretically do a little crude tweaking for testing.  

The big thing I am seeing is trying to 'fill the space' some: it's very empty in general, and large in volume.  As @erik_squires mentioned, I think what is happening is long delay times, and a bit of that effect of having your speakers outside: there is no reinforcement of lower tones/frequencies, and mid to upper frequencies ARE being reinforced and just doing their own thing.

OP:

Yep, so the frequency response plots won't help you as much as time/energy plots.  REW has a number of tools for this, but their own forums are better places to go. 

With my own tools there's usually a gated measurement in the mid-high frequencies specifically to remove reflections from the measurement.  This lets me measure more or less, how well the direct sound reaches my room, but does nothing to tell me about intelligibility. 

This is why we turn to other views like waterfall and decay plots.

Best,

 

E

eric is right,

my method is to find the best you can, then consider room treatments, not start/try/guess room treatments without measurements.

I understand you young whippersnappers like sweeps, software, automatic calibration ...

I like single tones, every 1/3 octave, hand written chart. old school!

One last thought, OP:

You can use basic tone controls to bring out the bass, but generally speaking the better order of operations is to add room treatments first and then EQ/room correction afterwards.  Of course, using a bass control is easy, so you may want to just do that until you decide about the room treatments, but since the room treatments affect the tonal balance, be prepared to do it again, so for this reason I strongly suggest AGAINST big hammer approaches like room correction being your first option.

Best,

 

E

To attach a screen shot, any photo, it has to be on the web, not on your computer.

There may be easier ways, this is what I figured out:

I make a new virtual system, i.e. dads floor plan, import the screen saver (jpeg) to the virtual system. that gets it on the web.

right click the photo and copy image address (not the photo)

next, in your post: using the photo icon top bar (6th from left), paste the image address (url)

....................

after that, you can delete the virtual system if you want.

Build a Listening Room within the Basement,

say13 wide x 20 deep, x your height (NOT a square) Then your materials/surfaces/reflections will be much easier to deal with.

Others can suggest ’better’ room sizes, and then, within that space, try the speakers on the short end, or along the longer side walls

I have always had my speakers on the short ’front’ end, i.e. currently

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/9511

btw, my speakers are on wheels, easily adjusted toe-in for one listener or two (both off-center), and: for best listening, I roll them forward and in, further away from rear and side walls.

 

@fthompson251 I think you're right.  I'm going to try just shifting everything backwards (towards the front wall) and starting there just to hear the difference/comparison.  Always finding doing one extreme to the other with some things really helps you know at least the boundaries of things. 

 

@elliottbnewcombjr   I had uploaded an image to Flickr online, and gone thru the process you mentioned but for some reason when I hit "post response", I immediately get a warning screen "you are currently being blocked".  I need to figure out the work around or better hosting site online (maybe dropbox?).
Thank you for helping confirm what I was doing though!  I'll be moving things today to test out just tonal responses. 

@erik_squires and @fthompson251  and @elliottbnewcombjr 
I did some real crude measurements (REW) and noted in looking at the RT60 measurements, he has around 600+ms of 'reverb'  from 1200Khz up to 15,000khz, with the highest being 800ms at 5000khz where it plateaus mostly to 15,000khz .  

I did a little clap test.....yea....it's a cave.

@OP Nice place to record in with that reverb. Not so good for listening.

 

OP:

I was pretty much right, and yet no one on Audiogon ever takes my advice. Sigh. 😪

The good news is these frequencies are easy to deal with without getting too thick/exotic or expensive. GIK and ATS acoustics are places to start. GIK makes some panels you can have printed on with artwork.

Let your T60 be your guide and tackle the problem frequencies first. When you are done the bass will be more exposed and you’ll want to start considering speaker placement and bass traps (considering, not buying) if your room modes are severe. You may even end up with a system that sounds like it has too much bass, or has severely strong notes. All that will happen in time.

@erik_squires I’m on your side man! You were 100% right, and dead on!!!!! Maybe you’re just ahead of your time and they are behind the curve? 😆

So he happened to have 6 of those yellow 2" fiberglass panels (unfinished). I talked him into letting me place them stacked two high directly between the speakers (in line) and directly next to the outside left and right of the speakers.
This had a MASSIVE effect on the sound quality.
The RT60 showed those exact same trouble spectrum, but instead of being 600ms to 0ver 800ms of reverb, the were cut down to 400 to 200ms!!!
Granted, if I snap my fingers or clap my hands, you still hear an echo, but I am ’moving the needle’ and getting him to actually realize he has horrible reverb/echo, and can hear some dramatic shifts to the opposite effect.
I am hoping to now find ON the walls where to put these 6 (which will lessen the new ’nulling’ effect by at least half), and make some strong suggestions for getting actual acoustic panels installed of size.

I think the actual biggest issue is his ceiling: the greatest expanse with NOTHING on it. His front wall doesn’t even have the equipment on it: it’s just bare, so I am going to start with that wall in general, first.

I honestly haven’t heard ANY room bass bloom as of yet, and I would be a little surprised if I did (I even did the walk around against the walls and never found any more bass). But, with the panels directly next to the speakers , things actually did sound ’fuller’ and warmer, and the bass ’felt’ more present. There was NO change to the frequency sweep...but the RT60 as I mentioned was dramatically different. I’m trying to get him to learn to hear what is actual recorded room/studio spatial sound (studio echo), vs his-room-created echo, or over-enhancing echo (imagine a recording with studio atmosphere and echo/time delay sound, coupled with a room that creates the same effect from the speakers!!).

There were a couple singer-guitar solo pieces I played that he immediately didn’t like, "it sounds a bit dead, like there’s no room or space where they are playing": yes, that is because there isn’t any (the tracks were VERY closely mic’d).....but does it sound like they are HERE, in the room with us?" Then I would play a track that did have a bit of studio space (more open room mic’d), and he noticed a big difference in the two different tracks. Then, I removed the panels entirely from that second track, and asked him "does it sound a bit much, like ’too much’ sound for just a guy and a guitar? In comparison?" He sort-of admitted it sounded better with the panels in place, but I could also tell that he was struggling to sort of be open to/accept what he was hearing (I’m learning a lot too).

There are so many recordings and sessions and events that are actually poorly or not the best recordings, or mic work, or space...but when I hear those things on my system, I am nearly elated because I can hear and feel how different recording CAN be. Like an NPR Tiny Desk of Tyler Childers, vs "Our Vinyl" recording session of the same 3 Tyler Childer songs, vs "Red Barn Radio" (all three on Youtube). Thanks to the videos, you can see where things are microphoned, the room treatment, the space. On my system the ROOM changes with the session: the sound matches the different spaces, different tone acoustics and room space cues. With my dads system-they all sound ’mostly’ the same, and lack impact and feel.

@yoyoyaya I was almost thinking the same thing!  Like, I wish I had and played the guitar, and could play a tune in the space, then play the same song thru the sound system and illustrate how much is "one generation of echo/reverb sound", and when the other is COMPOUNDED echo/reverb!!

@erik_squires A lot of us read and take your advice.  But it is those who don't who are vocal and argumentative.  Often taking your advice results in quiet satisfaction of a problem solved.  

Jerry

@amtprod - if I wasn't on the other side of the Atlantic, I'd come over and do it for you :)) As the old saying goes, big room, big problems.

@yoyoyaya HA!!! Bigger is not always better!!!  It's funny his space is over sized and empty, and my space is VERY small and VERY not symmetrical. 
I honestly think someone could have a really cool business of doing live -[ place your favorite instrument here]- sessions in someones listening space and sound system to help them dial in tone/frequency issues, and find short comings in the room or equipment chain.  

@amtprod If the room is really bad there will be positions where the woofers won't be functioning. You have to walk around to find the bass.

The single most important aspect to building a great system is finding a good room to put it in. When I was a graduate student down in Miami the huge showroom at Sound Components sounded great. It was something like 30 X 100 feet. In the meanwhile my system was crammed into a studio apartment and the bass was....difficult. In the public health service I rented a house that was open concept. None of the spaces were particularly large, but walls were missing everywhere and it sounded great. The house was one big diffusor. When I built my own house I had that in mind eliminating walls and doors where possible. I also use speakers with very controlled dispersion which helps a lot. Unfortunately, It does nothing for bass. That is where 4 subwoofers come in. If you are running on a budget Audiokinesis sells it's system for something like $2500 for an amp and four subwoofers. If you can spend more Kef makes a great little balanced force unit and Martin Logan has a pair of balanced force subs. After that it is Magico and even if you can afford them they are big and ugly. Everything else on the market is standard fare. If used with digital bass management they can be OK but not as good as the units I mention above. 

@mijostyn   The room is just so large, in a VERY large full size basement (it's effectively the nicely finished region of the whole basement  with the basic 'foundation walls' as the boundaries, (listening area = 34'L x 24'W 10'H) with the other areas of the basement as unfinished and even open-wall-stud framing mainly.  So to my ears and measuring, the Legacy speakers never really "pressurize" the room/basement.   So lucky for him, he could always add subwoofers if really needed--but I think for his room/system the biggest boom (see what I did there) would be from dealing with the "empty chamber syndrome" effect. 

In placing a few simple insulation panels directly between and aside the speakers (2, 2'x4' yellow insulation panels) in line with the face of the speakers: two in the middle, two on each side, you not only hear dramatically less echo/ringing, but things actually sound like they have more body to them, and warmer.  Yet, in doing a room frequency sweep measurement, there is NO change in frequency response.  I get the feeling if properly treated, the room and system will sync together better and maybe there won't be 'more bass', but all the hash/echo.reverd will be cut and enough body created to really bring out what I know the system and speakers are capable of.

I would love to get him the KEF unit (2 of them): I had heard two of them in a friends showroom space, and they were excellent value for function.  I know his Legacy will perfectly create the tone and detail of a bass note guitar (there is ZERO bass reinforcement/boom at any frequency), but would really benefit from a bit more "body feel" so to speak. 
Happy Easter
~alan

I am sure most have seen this video series, but just in case I thought I would post.

I found this very useful to hear 'before and after' from his space....yet played thru my fathers system and echoy room--so it's VERY obvious the echo/reverb.

 

 

Want to make a few points here:

1. One major reason we have trouble hearing a room is the ear/brain mechanism is actively filtering, which takes actual energy (i.e. the consumption of carbohydrates) and is tiring. Try recording your speakers and then listening that with headphones, or a friend’s voice in the room. You’ll be amazed at how much of the room reaches your ears but which your brain filters out in order to process the meaning of the words which were spoken. Do t his a few times and you can develop the skill to turn the filtering on and off. Takes a little practice.

 

2. IMHO, the Audioophle consensus is wrong about first reflection points. They matter but only if you already have a controlled acoustical environment. That is, you need a certain critical mass of absorbers before the 1st reflection points can make a perceptible difference. I’m not saying first reflection points never matter but that you shouldn’t get tunnel vision about them. Given a choice between an overall well treated room with controlled reflection time but no panels at 1st reflections and a room with only 1st reflection points treated the former will absolutely win. For this reason, do both, and don’t be disappointed if you place 4 panels and don’t hear a big difference.

3. Don’t forget the AM Acoustics Room mode simulator which in your case could be a real life saver. It will help you place your speakers and listening location more ideally, which you should do before considering 1st reflection points.

@erik_squires
1) "Try recording your speakers and then listening that with headphones, or a friend’s voice in the room."  THAT IS A BRILLIANT IDEA!!!!  He has a very good headphone amplifier and headphones, so this would be a perfect exercise.  I can play a couple of his favorite tracks and use my Zoom H4N stereo audio recorder: it is mostly very good at accurately recording full tonal range and area, not a specified ' directed lobed area of recording: should be very similar to the human head and sphere of hearing. 

2)  That is exactly why I had started by placing those absorbing panels DIRECTLY next to the speakers--to help him hear the 'opposite' extremity, before the sound even reached at least the side walls and front wall.  Even then, from the sitting position if you snapped your fingers you can hear it vibrate and almost echo.  I look at speakers like a semi-directed rock-being-dropped-in a-pond with square banks.  The sound radiates in ALL directions, at varying intensity and  phase: some frequencies cancelled, some reinforced, some refract and reflect, some gradually fade away.  It makes complete logical sense for most to grip onto "first reflection points".  It is insanely complex really how we try to reproduce a 3 dimensional musical performance with two speakers, who project dominantly from ONE dimension---so that first reflection is a very simple spot to lock onto "fixing" issues this audio-problem creates. 

He doesn't have nearly enough to really properly make effective changes, but I think I can present enough of a positive shift that he will like what he hears more, and will follow thru with getting a nice series of absorbers/diffusers to help him really get the most the system is capable of creating.  He's insanely lucky that he has NO true oddities or issues like bass booms that can be very difficult to remedy.  He just needs to break up and absorb things mostly. 

Happy Easter! (and thanks for continued help and idea!)

~alan

  He's insanely lucky that he has NO true oddities or issues like bass booms that can be very difficult to remedy.

 

Don't be so sure, yet.  You can't hear bass problems because you can't hear bass.  Once the mid-treble issues are dealt with these may become apparent and need to be dealt with separately.

@amtprod The problem with rooms that size is you start to get into echo problems. That echo gives away the size of the room. You want to hear the acoustics in the recording, not those of your room. You wind up in the wrong venue. The solutions are to break it up with a wall or barrier, a lot of sound absorption and speakers with tightly controlled radiation such as horns, dipoles and line sources. In a room that size I would want to see at least four 15" subwoofers. My room, is 16 feet wide and I use eight 12" subwoofers. Getting out below 30 Hz at volume takes a lot of driver. Speaker specs are very misleading. We do not listen to our systems 1 meter from the speakers and they never mention the room. A speaker is going to sound different depending on the room. Another thing a room that large might benefit from is a line source. A full frequency line source needs to be 32 feet tall or stretch from floor to ceiling. Line source speakers project sound better by an order of magnitude which is why you see them at big concerts. Sound Labs would make you an electrostatic speaker 40 X 118" With four 15" subwoofers you could have one h-ll of a party. 

@mijostyn I agree with you.  To me, his space needs 2 subwoofers (at least at this point it sounds like they do).  Frequency tests show 130hz and lower just drops like a stone.  Example : 1000hz is at -24db, and 80hz is at -44db at the nominal listening levels.  I need to be careful though, father is VERY sensitive to bass and can be irritated instantly if he thinks/feels like it's 'boomy' or loud. I have heard a ton of systems with extremely articulate and impactful bass-you hear the detailed pluck or hit of bass, but you also feel it's impact and weight.  With his system currently, it's just mainly the audible portion of the note/pluck/hit.

However as you and Erik have noted the greater issue is room echo/reverberation/decay and the corresponding impacts on phase and timing of the frequencies.  Like you mentioned, we need to break things up, diffuse and absorb in general (there's nearly nothing in the listening area from the chair to the front wall-just the speakers.  Just monkeying with a handful of panels and some ladders with blankets in key spots against the walls is showing how dominant the echo is in the room, and how it's coloring and even creating a cancelling or veiling of ACTUAL recorded room qualities \ instrument qualities, etc.  He's able to hear at least some improvements, but he's also very sensitive to changes so just easing in on things.

I think I have things calculated and types of panels he should get and install, but I wish there was like a diffusion/absorber kit you could rent to test out!!!!!!!!!!  I want to be sure to preserve the immense sound stage and depth he has, but tame the echo reverb, and "warm things up" so there's more feel and presence to the sound.

@erik_squires Ya just wanna jinx things, don'tcha?!?! 🤣

"Don't be so sure, yet.  You can't hear bass problems because you can't hear bass.  Once the mid-treble issues are dealt with these may become apparent and need to be dealt with separately."

With the minimal panels and other makeshift absorber/diffusers I'm playing with, I won't say there's "bass", but things have at least a little more flesh so I know I'm going in the right direction.  With 2, 12" woofers I would have to think mechanically there is enough umpfh there to make things move (ported enclosures as well).

Ya just wanna jinx things, don'tcha?!?!

 

Ahem, I'm not the one who declared there were no bass problems... that's exactly when the jinx happened!

Frequency tests show 130hz and lower just drops like a stone.  Example : 1000hz is at -24db, and 80hz is at -44db at the nominal listening levels. 

Well, that does sound bad, but use gated measurements instead of sinusoidal pink noise.  This will exclude the room.  Not sure how REW works, but with OnmiMic I get gated measurements above a certain frequency, and overall below that.  If it really is that bad you should consider heavily treating an area of the wall and pushing the speakers into it to get at least some bass re-inforcement. 

 

This is a great discussion lots of thing to try and will keep us from getting boared.great reasoning.

@amtprod There is no such thing as overdoing it. The more you kill what the room is doing the more you will hear what is in the recording including the third dimension, which is not the sense of depth as in distance it is the sense that the instrument of voice in front of you is a three dimensional object. The only caveat is that bass does not respond to room treatment. You start with enough acoustic power to do the job, then you tailor it with digital signal processing to sound right. 

The only caveat is that bass does not respond to room treatment.

Kind of, sort  of....

All my suggestions so far have been subtractive.  That is, to remove sounds in the room.  If you only subtract mid-treble then your balance shifts to the bass.

From experience and theory I can state that this absolutely brings out more bass and make speakers sound more powerful (I'd say larger but that sets some readers off into  an irrational tizzy). 

Will it fully fix the OP's issue? I'm not sure, but I do now his judgement about the bass problems will change after the room is treated. 

Also, we want the room to interact a little.  Diffuse sounds with a steady decay are really important to avoid a headphone-like experience and give us the illusions of the listening venue.

@erik_squires Morning.  Thanks again for things to try.  I'll look more into the "gated measurements" method.  I'll also look into OmniMic.  REW is really incredibly powerful program (free even!), and I think can be used even at a very surface level to help gain some objective info.  In my system/room at home REW helped me figure out exactly what frequencies were making bass boom, which helped me make some parametric EQ changes.  If you get time you should give it a look. 

Father is SUPER sensitive to bass, so for him little bass is perfectly ok to him.There is no way he will move his speakers (he can be, 'intractable'? about some things).  As we discussed, big goal is getting rid of the room echo/delay/reverb to a more moderate-mild level.  Like you noted, that alone will bring up the level or presence of existing bass. 

AM Acoustics Room Mode Simulator: I meant to say thanks for this!!!  I had found that awhile ago and forgot about it and where to find it!!  This is super helpful! 

@mijostyn I think if I can get him to do even moderate absorbing panels, it will make sizeable improvements that he will like.  I think the space COULD be perfect/exemplary and world class acoustically, but like we all know do we want to go thru the effort labor and expense?  In his space, it wouldn't take much really since there is no bass management issues (other than the lack of it!!!! :D )
But maybe I can talk him into a subwoofer at some point!  But these things take careful progress.  I think as we get older in ways we can become sort of set and resistant to things....even if we heard a difference, and even if that difference were 'objectively better'. 
And Erik is 100% correct about the bass coming out-- in putting absorbing panels directly inline with the face of the speakers and in-between, (so imagine 2, 2x4 insulation panels on chairs right and left of each speaker, and 4 of them in the 7' space between the speakers again 'in line' with the face of the speaker), you can easily hear a LOT fuller tone and sound, "as if you did an EQ boost in bass frequencies"......however, get this.....in doing a REW frequency sweep at the seated position, there was NO change in bass room frequency response!  Yet, you can easily hear maybe 15% more "bass"!!   
-----"Also, we want the room to interact a little.  Diffuse sounds with a steady decay are really important to avoid a headphone-like experience and give us the illusions of the listening venue."--- as Erik notes here, the above treatment I did in fact created a bit of this effect: it was JARRING (in context)!  I played a familiar track for him and removed the panels fast, and you can hear almost a pressure decrease in your ears. 

I think with how much I would bet my father would actually agree to do acoustic treatment wise, he would correct 30-40% of the room echo reverb, and gain maybe 20% more mid bass presence. 

I am sure you've all seen John's video series on dealing with his rooms, but these (there are 2 or 3?) are exactly what @erik_squires  has been helping me with.

 

 

OP:

 

Don’t go buying OmniMic because I use it. REW had similar capabilities, you just have to check the settings when you do a sinusoidal sweep. There’s usually some parameter that say "stop listening after x milliseconds" I’m just not familiar enough with REW. That’s the gating limit. There’s possibly/probably also a way to blend the gated measurements with the ungated for bass. That’s something OmniMic just does out of the box but I’m pretty sure REW has something similar.

Alternatively, if you ARE using REW with the gating turned on, it will cut the bass response off.

......however, get this.....in doing a REW frequency sweep at the seated position, there was NO change in bass room frequency response! Yet, you can easily hear maybe 15% more "bass"!!

I did mention that the frequency response measurements would not help you in this case. 😀

This has to do with hour our ear/brain integrates signal volume over time. That is, the perception of bass, mid, treble levels is an average over time as opposed to an instantaneous measure. With very live rooms like yours we perceive mid/treble as much louder because it’s staying with us longer. The total energy is Direct Sound + Sound from up to 0.6 seconds ago = 1.4x amount of perceived sound (as an example).

Our ear/brain mechanism is exposed to a lot more of that energy during a listening session. As we move to cut the reflection times out the total energy there gets cut, and now we hear bass.

But oh man do some people have a really difficult time with this concept. 🤣

Also worth noting that studies have shown that having meetings in highly reflective rooms is literally exhausting. Your brain has to spend so much time listening through the reverb that it tires itself out making it harder to concentrate by the end of a lecture or meeting. If you’ve ever gone home after a long meeting feeling totally drained you probably had this to blame.

This is why colleges repeatedly invest in sound absorption in lecture halls.