In-Room responce measurement with Legacy Focus SE speakers

@erik_squires Morning.  Thanks again for things to try.  I'll look more into the "gated measurements" method.  I'll also look into OmniMic.  REW is really incredibly powerful program (free even!), and I think can be used even at a very surface level to help gain some objective info.  In my system/room at home REW helped me figure out exactly what frequencies were making bass boom, which helped me make some parametric EQ changes.  If you get time you should give it a look. 

Father is SUPER sensitive to bass, so for him little bass is perfectly ok to him.There is no way he will move his speakers (he can be, 'intractable'? about some things).  As we discussed, big goal is getting rid of the room echo/delay/reverb to a more moderate-mild level.  Like you noted, that alone will bring up the level or presence of existing bass. 

AM Acoustics Room Mode Simulator: I meant to say thanks for this!!!  I had found that awhile ago and forgot about it and where to find it!!  This is super helpful! 

@mijostyn I think if I can get him to do even moderate absorbing panels, it will make sizeable improvements that he will like.  I think the space COULD be perfect/exemplary and world class acoustically, but like we all know do we want to go thru the effort labor and expense?  In his space, it wouldn't take much really since there is no bass management issues (other than the lack of it!!!! :D )
But maybe I can talk him into a subwoofer at some point!  But these things take careful progress.  I think as we get older in ways we can become sort of set and resistant to things....even if we heard a difference, and even if that difference were 'objectively better'. 
And Erik is 100% correct about the bass coming out-- in putting absorbing panels directly inline with the face of the speakers and in-between, (so imagine 2, 2x4 insulation panels on chairs right and left of each speaker, and 4 of them in the 7' space between the speakers again 'in line' with the face of the speaker), you can easily hear a LOT fuller tone and sound, "as if you did an EQ boost in bass frequencies"......however, get this.....in doing a REW frequency sweep at the seated position, there was NO change in bass room frequency response!  Yet, you can easily hear maybe 15% more "bass"!!   
-----"Also, we want the room to interact a little.  Diffuse sounds with a steady decay are really important to avoid a headphone-like experience and give us the illusions of the listening venue."--- as Erik notes here, the above treatment I did in fact created a bit of this effect: it was JARRING (in context)!  I played a familiar track for him and removed the panels fast, and you can hear almost a pressure decrease in your ears. 

I think with how much I would bet my father would actually agree to do acoustic treatment wise, he would correct 30-40% of the room echo reverb, and gain maybe 20% more mid bass presence. 

@erik_squires no I am thinking you are right: there is for sure a bigger need to get the speakers and room mechanically properly tuned: I don't think ANY EQ or DSP would bring out what the speakers are properly capable.  Chances are all those things would do is create distortion somewhere else. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/amtproductions/53619694364/in/dateposted-public/Thanks for the ideas @carlsbad2 That is a great idea, but unfortunately I am visiting the folks on the other side of the country from where I live, so no go on narrowing the scientific method testing with the exact same gear (smart idea though).

I would imagine room dimensions and pressurization is a huge component as well, is that right, more in regard to the "feel" of notes/frequency reproduction? I honestly thought the woofers in his towers weren’t working from the way things sounded, and felt.

I need to read how to properly link or input images: I am massively screwing that up. Flickr apparently is a no-go?

My system:
Legacy Studio HD, Adcom 555 modified, Bel Canto DAC 2.8, Pioneer PD-65 CD player modified
Room 12x17x9, speakers along long wall, couch against back wall.

@erik_squires  and @mashif  thanks for the input on reflections.  I was wondering a little about that as well, but I discounted it because of the size of the room (to me) is huge vs the speakers in them.  You're right, if I stand near-inbetween the speakers I get a better full range of tones. The speakers are several feet away from boundaries and each other.  However, there really is very very little in 'furnishings; his listening room is a huge finished basement.  It doesn't 'echo' per-se, but it's not like a living room with lots to break up sound. 

Maybe the fatigue aggravation at mid to higher volume (65-70db) is the reflection distortion, and the complete lack of weight and bass is lack of room pressurization?  It nearly sounds like (to me) that the two 12" woofers aren't even running.  I've walked around the space and I can't find any stronger or weaker bass nodes, even along the walls (bare).  When I've done very crude measuring, there is an easy 20db difference from 80-110hz (full range sweep) with 100-120hz being a very prominent mountain peak.   

@erik_squires that is EXACTLY what I was wondering, and you articulated all of it perfectly.  In my little living room space, at very normal levels (50-60db), you can still feel the weight of a guitar pluck from low to high strings, and feel metallic strikes, etc.  With his, you hear the note or the pluck....but that's it...you hear it's 'note', and nothing else.  You may 'hear' a finger drag along a string, but you don't feel the sound like on my system/room.  It's almost like I want to put a bunch of big subs everywhere to 'feel' notes/frequencies....not just bass.

That long delay time you mention I think is exactly what's happening.  There isn't 'reverb' or echo, but there is for certain mainly just empty cavern (mostly).  I want to remember watching a couple of well made videos with Darko and a guy in the states who were creating new listening spaces from the ground up, and dealing with this like this.  I'll try to find and re-watch them. 

He has his speakers VERY far from walls (I'm measuring exactly a bit later), but it's easily 6' from front wall, and 7' from side walls, with nearly nothing in the space from the chair forward. 

Morning @fthompson251 I sure can.  Integrated amp: Rega Ellicit Mk4.  CD Player & DAC: Rega Saturn.  Streamer: iFi Zen Stream.  Speaker wire: Deulund (12').  Turn table: Rega Planar 3. 

I am wondering about room correction software/hardware as well, and I know that Wavelet would be perfect especially for his over all system and room.  He does have some yellow insulation panels that I'll be testing out this weekend.  I was just hoping to get some baseline measurements and comparisons to baseline "what the Focus SE outputs WITHOUT room interaction, first.

@mijostyn "Sibilant' is a very good descriptive word for what his room/speaker set up sounds like to me.  As mentioned, to my ears it sounds as if the woofers aren't even functioning.  It's funny you mention about getting an anechoic effect by taking the speakers outside: I had done that at work one summer for our fire crew (we have big old crappy yamaha tower speakers in our gym), and the sound was HORRIBLE. 

@elliottbnewcombjr Thanks for the idea and links for things!  This is exactly what I am wanting to do, using Room EQ Wizard (REW) just to get a very crude general idea of what the speaker is doing at the listening position with it's ability to play and record a frequency sweep.  I have a mic, and REW generates the sweep itself and records it in sync.  I also think REW has the ability to 'eq' some to the audio being output (audio out from headphone jack or via USB to DAC), so I could theoretically do a little crude tweaking for testing.  

The big thing I am seeing is trying to 'fill the space' some: it's very empty in general, and large in volume.  As @erik_squires mentioned, I think what is happening is long delay times, and a bit of that effect of having your speakers outside: there is no reinforcement of lower tones/frequencies, and mid to upper frequencies ARE being reinforced and just doing their own thing.

@fthompson251 I think you're right.  I'm going to try just shifting everything backwards (towards the front wall) and starting there just to hear the difference/comparison.  Always finding doing one extreme to the other with some things really helps you know at least the boundaries of things. 

@elliottbnewcombjr   I had uploaded an image to Flickr online, and gone thru the process you mentioned but for some reason when I hit "post response", I immediately get a warning screen "you are currently being blocked".  I need to figure out the work around or better hosting site online (maybe dropbox?).
Thank you for helping confirm what I was doing though!  I'll be moving things today to test out just tonal responses. 

@erik_squires and @fthompson251  and @elliottbnewcombjr 
I did some real crude measurements (REW) and noted in looking at the RT60 measurements, he has around 600+ms of 'reverb'  from 1200Khz up to 15,000khz, with the highest being 800ms at 5000khz where it plateaus mostly to 15,000khz .  

I did a little clap test.....yea....it's a cave.

@erik_squires I’m on your side man! You were 100% right, and dead on!!!!! Maybe you’re just ahead of your time and they are behind the curve? 😆

So he happened to have 6 of those yellow 2" fiberglass panels (unfinished). I talked him into letting me place them stacked two high directly between the speakers (in line) and directly next to the outside left and right of the speakers.
This had a MASSIVE effect on the sound quality.
The RT60 showed those exact same trouble spectrum, but instead of being 600ms to 0ver 800ms of reverb, the were cut down to 400 to 200ms!!!
Granted, if I snap my fingers or clap my hands, you still hear an echo, but I am ’moving the needle’ and getting him to actually realize he has horrible reverb/echo, and can hear some dramatic shifts to the opposite effect.
I am hoping to now find ON the walls where to put these 6 (which will lessen the new ’nulling’ effect by at least half), and make some strong suggestions for getting actual acoustic panels installed of size.

I think the actual biggest issue is his ceiling: the greatest expanse with NOTHING on it. His front wall doesn’t even have the equipment on it: it’s just bare, so I am going to start with that wall in general, first.

I honestly haven’t heard ANY room bass bloom as of yet, and I would be a little surprised if I did (I even did the walk around against the walls and never found any more bass). But, with the panels directly next to the speakers , things actually did sound ’fuller’ and warmer, and the bass ’felt’ more present. There was NO change to the frequency sweep...but the RT60 as I mentioned was dramatically different. I’m trying to get him to learn to hear what is actual recorded room/studio spatial sound (studio echo), vs his-room-created echo, or over-enhancing echo (imagine a recording with studio atmosphere and echo/time delay sound, coupled with a room that creates the same effect from the speakers!!).

There were a couple singer-guitar solo pieces I played that he immediately didn’t like, "it sounds a bit dead, like there’s no room or space where they are playing": yes, that is because there isn’t any (the tracks were VERY closely mic’d).....but does it sound like they are HERE, in the room with us?" Then I would play a track that did have a bit of studio space (more open room mic’d), and he noticed a big difference in the two different tracks. Then, I removed the panels entirely from that second track, and asked him "does it sound a bit much, like ’too much’ sound for just a guy and a guitar? In comparison?" He sort-of admitted it sounded better with the panels in place, but I could also tell that he was struggling to sort of be open to/accept what he was hearing (I’m learning a lot too).

There are so many recordings and sessions and events that are actually poorly or not the best recordings, or mic work, or space...but when I hear those things on my system, I am nearly elated because I can hear and feel how different recording CAN be. Like an NPR Tiny Desk of Tyler Childers, vs "Our Vinyl" recording session of the same 3 Tyler Childer songs, vs "Red Barn Radio" (all three on Youtube). Thanks to the videos, you can see where things are microphoned, the room treatment, the space. On my system the ROOM changes with the session: the sound matches the different spaces, different tone acoustics and room space cues. With my dads system-they all sound ’mostly’ the same, and lack impact and feel.

@yoyoyaya I was almost thinking the same thing!  Like, I wish I had and played the guitar, and could play a tune in the space, then play the same song thru the sound system and illustrate how much is "one generation of echo/reverb sound", and when the other is COMPOUNDED echo/reverb!!

@yoyoyaya HA!!! Bigger is not always better!!!  It's funny his space is over sized and empty, and my space is VERY small and VERY not symmetrical. 
I honestly think someone could have a really cool business of doing live -[ place your favorite instrument here]- sessions in someones listening space and sound system to help them dial in tone/frequency issues, and find short comings in the room or equipment chain.  

@mijostyn   The room is just so large, in a VERY large full size basement (it's effectively the nicely finished region of the whole basement  with the basic 'foundation walls' as the boundaries, (listening area = 34'L x 24'W 10'H) with the other areas of the basement as unfinished and even open-wall-stud framing mainly.  So to my ears and measuring, the Legacy speakers never really "pressurize" the room/basement.   So lucky for him, he could always add subwoofers if really needed--but I think for his room/system the biggest boom (see what I did there) would be from dealing with the "empty chamber syndrome" effect. 

In placing a few simple insulation panels directly between and aside the speakers (2, 2'x4' yellow insulation panels) in line with the face of the speakers: two in the middle, two on each side, you not only hear dramatically less echo/ringing, but things actually sound like they have more body to them, and warmer.  Yet, in doing a room frequency sweep measurement, there is NO change in frequency response.  I get the feeling if properly treated, the room and system will sync together better and maybe there won't be 'more bass', but all the hash/echo.reverd will be cut and enough body created to really bring out what I know the system and speakers are capable of.

I would love to get him the KEF unit (2 of them): I had heard two of them in a friends showroom space, and they were excellent value for function.  I know his Legacy will perfectly create the tone and detail of a bass note guitar (there is ZERO bass reinforcement/boom at any frequency), but would really benefit from a bit more "body feel" so to speak. 
Happy Easter
~alan

I am sure most have seen this video series, but just in case I thought I would post.

I found this very useful to hear 'before and after' from his space....yet played thru my fathers system and echoy room--so it's VERY obvious the echo/reverb.

 

@erik_squires
1) "Try recording your speakers and then listening that with headphones, or a friend’s voice in the room."  THAT IS A BRILLIANT IDEA!!!!  He has a very good headphone amplifier and headphones, so this would be a perfect exercise.  I can play a couple of his favorite tracks and use my Zoom H4N stereo audio recorder: it is mostly very good at accurately recording full tonal range and area, not a specified ' directed lobed area of recording: should be very similar to the human head and sphere of hearing. 

2)  That is exactly why I had started by placing those absorbing panels DIRECTLY next to the speakers--to help him hear the 'opposite' extremity, before the sound even reached at least the side walls and front wall.  Even then, from the sitting position if you snapped your fingers you can hear it vibrate and almost echo.  I look at speakers like a semi-directed rock-being-dropped-in a-pond with square banks.  The sound radiates in ALL directions, at varying intensity and  phase: some frequencies cancelled, some reinforced, some refract and reflect, some gradually fade away.  It makes complete logical sense for most to grip onto "first reflection points".  It is insanely complex really how we try to reproduce a 3 dimensional musical performance with two speakers, who project dominantly from ONE dimension---so that first reflection is a very simple spot to lock onto "fixing" issues this audio-problem creates. 

He doesn't have nearly enough to really properly make effective changes, but I think I can present enough of a positive shift that he will like what he hears more, and will follow thru with getting a nice series of absorbers/diffusers to help him really get the most the system is capable of creating.  He's insanely lucky that he has NO true oddities or issues like bass booms that can be very difficult to remedy.  He just needs to break up and absorb things mostly. 

Happy Easter! (and thanks for continued help and idea!)

~alan

@mijostyn I agree with you.  To me, his space needs 2 subwoofers (at least at this point it sounds like they do).  Frequency tests show 130hz and lower just drops like a stone.  Example : 1000hz is at -24db, and 80hz is at -44db at the nominal listening levels.  I need to be careful though, father is VERY sensitive to bass and can be irritated instantly if he thinks/feels like it's 'boomy' or loud. I have heard a ton of systems with extremely articulate and impactful bass-you hear the detailed pluck or hit of bass, but you also feel it's impact and weight.  With his system currently, it's just mainly the audible portion of the note/pluck/hit.

However as you and Erik have noted the greater issue is room echo/reverberation/decay and the corresponding impacts on phase and timing of the frequencies.  Like you mentioned, we need to break things up, diffuse and absorb in general (there's nearly nothing in the listening area from the chair to the front wall-just the speakers.  Just monkeying with a handful of panels and some ladders with blankets in key spots against the walls is showing how dominant the echo is in the room, and how it's coloring and even creating a cancelling or veiling of ACTUAL recorded room qualities \ instrument qualities, etc.  He's able to hear at least some improvements, but he's also very sensitive to changes so just easing in on things.

I think I have things calculated and types of panels he should get and install, but I wish there was like a diffusion/absorber kit you could rent to test out!!!!!!!!!!  I want to be sure to preserve the immense sound stage and depth he has, but tame the echo reverb, and "warm things up" so there's more feel and presence to the sound.

@erik_squires Ya just wanna jinx things, don'tcha?!?! 🤣

"Don't be so sure, yet.  You can't hear bass problems because you can't hear bass.  Once the mid-treble issues are dealt with these may become apparent and need to be dealt with separately."

With the minimal panels and other makeshift absorber/diffusers I'm playing with, I won't say there's "bass", but things have at least a little more flesh so I know I'm going in the right direction.  With 2, 12" woofers I would have to think mechanically there is enough umpfh there to make things move (ported enclosures as well).

I am sure you've all seen John's video series on dealing with his rooms, but these (there are 2 or 3?) are exactly what @erik_squires  has been helping me with.

 

@erik_squires "Also worth noting that studies have shown that having meetings in highly reflective rooms is literally exhausting."  Yup, I think we have all experienced that first hand in bars and restaurants, and theaters.  That's why when my father said "I don't like listening to music above "X" setting----I don't need to listen loud---it's just too aggravating", but I thought 'man I can barely really hear it, and for sure can't FEEL music?!!?', then checked on the DB meter and it was at 64+ DB, I knew it was the room acoustics. 

I work in wildland fire, and one year we had to stay at a fire camp that was in a school.  The Incident Team thought it would be great to have everyone sleep in the gymnasium.  I told my crew "no way....we'll find a different spot outside, even if it rains a little".  Couple crew said 'no way, I'm not risking getting wet, I'm going in the gym!'  Well, shove 800 fire fighters in a gym, and SNORING, and NO ONE is sleeping.  One of the guys ended up coming outside.  Next morning he said it was like being in a zoo enclosure. 

@mark200mph I am really glad for your comment!  I was hoping enough folks would be able to chime in and make this educational.  I'm trying to learn what web site to use to host images that I can post in here so folks can see some of what is going on. 

@erik_squires 🤣🐴🐐🐘🦏!!!!

So: here is an RT60 plot of the room untreated for a quick reference:

@erik_squires great insights again.  I was just doing reading up on the specific frequencies and energy/directionality.  I have been diving into that AM Acoustics web site as well, which has been PERFECT for this exact exercise: everything I am even roughly measuring and hearing, it is show as well.  It mathematically predicts the RT60 in sync to what I measured, and it is also telling me the exact same higher energy frequencies with specific notes to test. 

Here is a photo of the empty room: no diffusion.  I'll post the full semi-arc at the speakers and it's corresponding measurements to show the difference (now that I finally figured out what I was doing wrong with posting images!!!!)
Of note but not obvious is the 18"x18" boxed beam overhead, just "in front" of the seating position.

@erik_squires Agree on all points.  I'll send you a message on a couple details, and a sketch of the room and dimensions, so you specifically have a better idea. 

Here is the room "treated" sort of over the top with utilizing what we have on hand, and making the largest change to hear/measure what is improved/worsened.  From the RT60 measurements, you can see that we dramatically reduced the echo/ringing from over 700ms to just around 500ms, which some state is around average/acceptable in most contexts. 

Also attaching measurement sheet to show where things are placement and distance wise. 

@audiom3 Oh that is awesome to hear!!  I -LOVE-    my Studio HDs in my small living room Home Theater 2.5 channel set up.  I had Epos ES12s for awhile, which were "nice", but man the upgrade to the Studios was DRAMATIC!!!

I think with my fathers system, his speakers are in an enormous cavern, and there is a lot of reverb and ringing that are masking a fair amount of bas, (as noted and instructed by @erik_squires )   For him, the lack of bass is perfectly fine (he doesn't hear it that way), but for me......if I were playing Sabotage....YOU BETTER BE BRINGING THAT BASS!!!!!!!

Out of curiousity @audiom3  have you ever used REW and would you be able/willing to do an in room measurement?  I'd just like to see the difference in the bass response and levels comparatively.