Impressions of Coincident Speakers

I was talked out of them by a local dealer because I’m more rock music with solid state components. The speakers are a funky load and I believe were designed for tubes with high efficiency being a priority.

Thank You for your input.

Brad

Paging @charles1dad a happy Coincident speaker owner.

jond

Thnx for the reference to charles1dad.  I will PM him this week.

Brad

@jond

I don’t believe that I can offer much meaningful help. The only Devore speaker I’ve heard is the Orangutan 96 model and that was under audio show conditions (RMAF, I had a nice conversion with John Devore who was very pleasant).

I have previous generation Coincident speakers (Total Eclipse II) which are different from what @bradf is interested in, the Super Victory III. I honestly don’t know how similar these different models compare sonically.

Total Eclipse II, 94 db and 14 ohm impedance load, Scan Speak Revelator silk soft dome tweeter/two 6.5" midrange drivers/two 10" woofers.

Super Victory III, 92db and 10 ohm impedance load, ribbon tweeter/ one 7" midrange driver/ one 12" woofer.  Both.are 1st order crossover designs (But quite possibly different parts).

Charles

@bradf

Gon member @clevelandbrownsfan has owned the Super Victory II for a few years and drives them with Atma-sphere M-60 OTLs and loves the pairing. It seems to me that the el 34 LTA amplifier should also be an excellent match.

Charles

@charles1dad 

I have not heard the SVIII, but based on the design and specs, I'm confident in the synergistic matching of the SV with the LTA ZOTL Circuit. and I am very impressed with the materials and design of the cabinet, also speaker and crossover components are exceptional quality. The only question I have yet to answer, is the bass characteristics of this speaker. Would you please read my opening discussion and comment on the details concerning bass and room size that  I have outlined above. It's evident that the Total Eclipse II has far more bass capacity than the SV III, but your description of the bass characteristics would probably be helpful (at least in part)  in determining if the bass meets my preferences as denoted above.

 

Thank You

Brad    

@bradf 

The Coincident Total Eclipse II were built from the ground up to be very compatible with tube amplifiers and this includes SET amplifiers (Thus the high 14 ohm impedance and 94 db sensitivity),  The other aspect to ensure successful pairing with tube amplifiers is the tuning of the woofers. So the chosen Q factor was addressed to provide sufficient damping and bass control. 

In my opinion Coincident got this 'very right'  excellent control without being overdamped. I've used 3 different tube amplifiers,  100 watt push pull KT 88/ 40 watt push pull el 34/8 watt SET 300b. No issues whatsoever with any of them.

  I also have used a loaned Lamm 90 watt push pull amplifier and a First Watt S.I.T ( 35 push pull D.I,Y. version).  The bass control, impact and texture was really good with each despite their distinct sonic signatures being easily preserved.  

In general terms I can say that the Coincident sound is high resolution/low degree of coloration/very open presentation. With good placement the speakers seem to disappear from the room (Depending on the recording in use). Definitely high resolution and clarity but thankfully not analytical or clinical sounding by any stretch.

The Super Victory III with the ribbon tweeter could be perhaps more resolved than my speaker with the soft dome tweeter (But perfect for me😊). One more comment,  the musical pace and flow characteristics are very fluid and natural.  Definitely not a stiff or mechanical type of presentation. I hope that this helps somewhat.  I've had the Total Eclipse II for over 12 years and they along with my 300b SET mono blocks are not going anywhere. 

Charles 

Another long-time (12 year) owner of Coincident Total Eclipse II here.  I would echo Charles' sentiments regarding the speakers' low coloration, wide open soundstage, excellent dynamics and ease of load.  While I always have felt the rated 94+dB sensitivity was perhaps a bit overestimated, they are easily driven to room filling volume (and some) with a 30 watt push-pull tube amplifier (Berning EA230), and can achieve extremely high SPLs with anything over 50WPC.  I have tried them with a K&K Audio modified ST70 running in class A with KT88s strapped to triodes to produce 8WPC, but they always felt a bit starved for my room size and preferred listening volumes; I generally use a modified Berning ZH270 as my daily driver.  My experiences with Israel's other, newer speaker designs via audio shows (RIP, RMAF) has shown a strong family resemblance to what I hear with my Total Eclipse.  No plans to change speakers anytime soon.

@charles1dad 

@palasr 

 

Thank You of the informative and helpful description you both have provided.

I understand that as a result of the chosen woofer / q-factor, that the bass drivers are well dampened and well controlled with tube amplification.  In my case 42 @ 8 ohms/51 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

Im trying to figure out if because of the moderate wattage typically used to drive these speakers if the woofer output is more tame and neighbor friendly at moderate listening levels then what a separate sealed box 500 watt, integral amp REL type subwoofer would produce (even at a lower volume level). I want to hear what's on the recording and hear the lower register of the kick drum but not at the expense of disturbing neighbors. 

I'm hoping that at least some of that makes sense to you with regard to my preference in bass performance. Basically, I just don't know what to expect from these two 12" aluminum woofers.

Thanks for all your help and advice

Brad 

@bradf 

Im trying to figure out if because of the moderate wattage typically used to drive these speakers if the woofer output is more tame and neighbor friendly at moderate listening levels then what a separate sealed box 500 watt, integral amp REL type subwoofer would produce (even at a lower volume level). I want to hear what's on the recording and hear the lower register of the kick drum but not at the expense of disturbing neighbors. 

Brad in my opinion you will be fine. I wouldn't say that the bass reproduction is "tame" it is present yet controlled,  certainly not  overemphasized or too prominent. It will be suitably proportional to the volume level chosen. I believe that the proposed LTA push pull amplifier is going to be a fantastic pairing with the Coincident Super Victory III. 

I really suspect that this combination is going to be very open, transparent,  3 dimensional with beautiful tonality and harmonics but avoiding gratuitous warmth.

Charles 

 

I owned a pair of Partial Eclipse II's for over 12 years that I bought new and have nothing but good things to say about them.  Always ran them with lower powered tube amps from 12 to 55 wpc.  When the amp wasn't up to snuff the Partials revealed it.  Israel builds great speakers - I can't imagine you not liking them especially w/that LTA amp.

@charles1dad 

Thank you so much for taking your time to answer my questions.  You have been very helpful. Your description of the bass not being overemphasized or too prominent pretty much answered questions I had regarding the overall bass character of the SV III. Prominent and overemphasized bass is exactly how I find the REL R305 I have, even when matching sub to speaker volumes, and is what I am trying to stay away from. I think I remember at one time reading that you had installed different caps in your Super Eclipse . I may be mistaken, but if  you did, what where brand were they. Just interested for future reference

Thanks again

Brad

Hi brad,

Just to clarify I have the Total Eclipse II and not the Super Eclipse which is the model below the Totals (And highly praised in their own right). The stock tweeter capacitor is a Solens. I replaced these (Only 1 capacitor per speaker) with the Duelund CAST copper foil.  Sound went from  "very good"  to a full step upward in sound quality. Expensive capacitors and yet a true bargin for the level of improvement rendered. Increased resolution/openess and became even more organic, very impressive capacitors. I don't know how similar the Super Victory III crossover is in regard to parts. I suspect not too different. 

Charles 

@pehare 

Thanks for relating your real time use and experience with your Coincident Speakers. 

Im thinking that facing the subs inward would tame the subs somewhat by eliminating any wall reinforcement.  I only ask this, because I had read where a reviewer stated the sub position didn't matter much in his room. Can you share any experience you have with the subs facing in opposed to out.  Note: with the speakers seperated 9 feet , if the sub side was positioned outward it would be a little less than 3 feet to the side wall.

Thanks again

Brad

 

Thnx

Brad 

Hi Brad mine were placed about 8 feet apart between rack and about 18" from rear wall which is the long wall and sounded better with the woofers pointed inward.  Good luck and have fun!

@pehare 

Thanks

 

Brad

@bradf, I bought a pair of Super Victory II speakers used about 6 years ago. I am going to make an assumption that the SVIII is not a radical redesign. As Charles1dad mentioned, I drive the SV’s with Atma-sphere M-60’s. The M-60’s don’t break a sweat, however, these speakers were not happy driven by my Coincident Frankenstein 300Bs.

The tweeter and midrange (i think) used in the SVII are no longer available, which may have been the motivation behind launching the SVIII. Also, the coincident website indicates that the SVII did not have an aluminum woofer, but this is not correct. So the woofer may be a different woofer, but my guess is that it is fairly similar. The coincident website indicates some adjustments were made to the crossover to accommodate the new drivers. I suspect the crossover design is similar, perhaps with some adjustments to cap and resistor values.

You ask some excellent questions. I own both the Super Victory II's and a pair of the old retired Triumph Extreme II monitors. I had the opportunity to extensively audition (about 5 hours) a pair of PREs. Tonal accuracy and coherence is a strong suit in all the coincident speakers I’ve heard. I would say my SVIIs as they are currently set up give a nice, tuneful, articulate bass.

Again, as they are currently set up, imaging is quite good. Not the strongest center fill I would say, but superb outside the center. They image convincingly outside the speakers in my 15 ft wide room, giving the impression of an image of 25-30 ft wide on some recordings.

Both bass response and imaging benefited from an enormous effort in optimizing speaker and listening position placement as well as room treatment. In the absence of this, speaker performance in those areas was disappointing. These will not be speakers that will work in any room, and might not be the best in a room where you don’t have freedom to add extensive treatment due to esthetics considerations. The side firing woofers allow for a narrow baffle, which is a plus with respect to imaging, but the side firing woofers can be a bit more demanding when it comes to placement.

If I were to offer a performance criticism on my speakers, it would be that the midrange is not the loveliest or most refined I’ve every heard. The new drivers in the SVIIIs may be an improvement in this area, but I suspect this is going to be problem when using any 7" as a midrange driver.

I have no experience with the Super 9s, so I can’t be of help on those.

Now then, I need to tell you that I rebuilt the crossovers using about $1200 in parts. This work utterly transformed the SVIIs. Before the crossover rebuilt, the speakers were laid back to the point of being boring. You are only going to get so much out of $3 Solens fast caps. On the other hand, the inductors are pretty good, so I didn’t replace those. The transformation was significant enough that I suspect my modified speakers will out perform anything in the 10-15K price range.

Would I spend this kind of money on this speaker with no return option? No. I can justify buying used if the price is right, because if I can’t make the speaker work in my room and my system, I can resell without loosing my shirt.

 

 

@brownsfan

Thanks very much

 I find your approach to describing the attributes and shortcomings of your SVII's  very insightful and provoked some thought with respect to speaker placement flexibility or difficulties, pending on room size, common furnishings, and acoustical treatment.  I agree with you, the side firing woofer does allow for a narrow front baffle, enhancing staging and imaging, but may present  limited flexibility in placement  to achieve optimal performance, which in your case required some degree of acoustic treatment.  While still retaining decor aesthetics, I am limited to my existing bass/corner traps and Synergistic Research FEQ / HFT's for treatment.  Since this is a fully furnished family room , any additional acoustic treatments would not be practical or visually appealing.  Even thought this speaker has the cabinet and electronic design, component type (Ribbon Tweeter) and quality, and the sonic attributes that I look for in a speaker,  it s application in my room is questionable.  While not being able to audition this speaker and  the "Absolutely No Return" policy may be more of a risk and/or loss that I am willing to accept.  

Thanks again

Brad

@charles1dad 

Under "Whats New" on the Coincident site, states the SV III uses AuricCap capacitors, metal oxide resistors, high gauge OFC air core inductors.

Thnx

Brad

@bradf

Even thought this speaker has the cabinet and electronic design, component type (Ribbon Tweeter) and quality, and the sonic attributes that I look for in a speaker, it s application in my room is questionable. While not being able to audition this speaker and the "Absolutely No Return" policy may be more of a risk and/or loss that I am willing to accept.

These are astute observations and reinforce the reality of some degree of tradeoffs have to be recognized and accepted. Every speaker is going to have its own package of positive and negative aspects.

With the Super Victory III there’s no return policy (Negative) however buying them direct lowers their cost compared to most other arrangements (Positive). You are buying a well thought out, established and high quality product. No question there’s stiff competition from other quality manufacturers held in high regard.

I just believe that the more scrutiny applied will uncover concerns about literally any speaker as none represent perfection. I do understand the concerns regarding side firing woofers. In my case the woofers facing inward was just okay. When I changed to outward firing position this resulted in a "substantial " improvement. Case by case scenario as it will simply depend on one’s listening room acoustics.

Front firing woofers are certainly an alternative solution but they’ll have their own placement considerations as well. It’s always going to be something that’s going to have to be dealt with 😊. I happen to believe the Super Victory III and the LTA amplifier would be a marvelous sounding match. But certainly to be fair you do have other teriffic options available.

Brad, so it seems that Coincident has replaced the Solens capacitor with Auricaps, an improvement I’m sure. Must give credit, even with the Solens my speakers were very good. But as mentioned before the sound quality escalated with the wonderful Duelund CAST copper foil capacitors.

Many good choices and paths to follow without question. Coincident speakers and LTA surely represents one.

Charles

 

Hi Bill (@brownsfan)

I'm glad you chimed in with your always intelligent, thoughtful and insightful perspective.  It's always appreciated. 

Charles 

OP, I am recently on a hunt for more sensitive speakers and came across some at this Nashville dealer which are not on most people's short lists (such as Devore).

Here: 

You will notice that this is a dealer who has very consciously stocked speakers that pair well with tube amps and also sells tube amps.

I have come to learn, thanks to brownsfan and some others, that a lot of work often needs to go into the room in addition to the choice of gear. It's not the most convenient thing to believe, but it has the virtue of being true.

@charles1dad 

I am in agreement with you. Well thought design, high sensitivity, benign load, and exceptional sonic qualities. Probably a very good match for the LTA ZOTL 40. Probably the best high sensitivity speaker value on the market, But may not be suitable for my room size / type, although that's still under my review.

@brownsfan provided a very intelligent perspective regarding the negative and positive aspects of this speaker , with an overview of speaker/room interaction and what was required of him to optimize SQ in his room.  After I responded to his observations and advice to me, I realized i didn't ask his room dimensions / configuration. Something I really need to do, to better understand the conditions of his room and speaker interaction that  he encountered.

 

Thnx

Brad

@brownsfan 

Hi Bill.

To better understand the speaker and room interaction you encountered while configuring your room to achieve the resulting SQ; would you please provide your room size, What type of wall, ceiling, floor material, etc.. Dedicated room or multi function., etc

Thanks again for all your time and help. It's a definite benefit in helping me make an informed decision.

Brad

@charles1dad 

I just believe that the more scrutiny applied will uncover concerns about literally any speaker as none represent perfection. 

 

Your right, I do have a tendency to open rocks to see how they work

@brownsfan 

Woofers, firing in or out - ?. Sonic differences between the two positions?

 

Thnx

Brad

@bradf @hilde45 ​​​​@charles1dad, thanks for your kind words!  Now then, my room is a second floor bonus room that has been appropriated as a dedicated listening room and is roughly 14-15 wide, 20 ft long, and with 8 ft ceilings.  I'm using a short wall orientation, and my rack is behind the listening position.  Amps are on the floor right next to the speakers, keeping the speaker wire as short as possible per Ralph K's instruction. The room is nicely symmetrical forward of the listening position.  The flooring is a really nice Luxury Vinyl Plank over OSB, and the ceiling is fairly heavily treated above the listening position.  I have a clever arrangement along my side walls that deflects sound from the first reflection zone back towards the front of the room, so that I have suppressed most of the reflections in the 8- 20 millisecond range that is most responsible for compromising image.  This is a much better solution, in my opinion, than using absorption at first reflection points.

I have the woofers facing outward, with the outer edge of the speaker about 32 " from the side wall, and with the speaker about 30" out from the front wall as measured to the back of the cabinet.  I found, on my flooring, that the speakers performed MUCH better using Herbie's footers that using the Coincident supplied spikes. 

Outward firing was much better in this room than inward firing.  I suspect that having the woofers firing towards each other in a narrow room gives too much cancelation due to out of phase waveforms

If one is not careful to dial in speaker position and the main listening position, these speakers are capable of inarticulate bass.  If one is careful, they are capable of nice articulate bass.  This just isn't a speaker that you can plop down anywhere and get it to workup to its potential.

The Auricaps are a nice improvement over the Solens caps. I've used them in other crossover rebuilds, and they offer a nice performance at reasonable cost. The tweeter cap in the SVII is an 8.2 mF cap, so they aren't going to be cheap.  I went with Jupiter coppers and have Duelund Silver in parallel.  The Jupiters are humongous and went for about $550 a pair.  The Duelund Silver parallels added another $200.  If I were doing this again, I might try the VCap ODAMs for the tweeter. 

This is a tough call for you.  If you don't have the luxury of a dedicated room, you are pretty much playing Russian Roulette with any speaker you can't return.  Every speaker, regardless of design, is going to have an optimal placement and relationship to the main listening position in a given room, or said in another way, no speaker is going to reach its potential in a given room if you can't accommodate the optimal position.   So you will be wanting to find a speaker that is happy with what you can give it.  It is essentially impossible to predict that a priori.  

 

 

It's been a long time since I heard some coincident speakers.   But when they were the "new thing" back in the late 90's a local dealer carried them and I always found them way too colored for my liking.  Hence I wasn't surprised by the notorious Stereophile Review:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/coincident-speaker-technology-troubador-loudspeaker

 

I don't know if the designer has upped his game since then.

 

At the same time I really like the Devore O speakers which some say are colored as well, so...it's pretty subjective.   I don't know where one hears coincident speakers these days.

@brownsfan  

Bill,

Thank You for responding to my questions regarding your listing area and position of woofers.  I am unable to comment at this time due to some deadlines , but as soon as time permits, I will follow this discussion up.

Thanks very much for all the time and knowledge you have contributed to my cause.

Brad

 

@prof 

Thanks very much, I find your comments of interest and appreciate the review link

Brad

I don’t know if the designer has upped his game since then.

Yes he has upped his game considerably from those early years (circa 1996) . Ironically Recent and current generation Coincident speakers are admired for their relatively minimal coloration as several posters on this thread have pointed out. Needless to say no speaker is truely "colorless "

Charles

 

 

That's good to hear charles.

I can't find any new reviews which have measurements.  Only an older sound-stage review of the coincident super eclipse, where the measurements again look pretty awful. 

I don't think measurements are always needed, but I do think they can shed some light on the performance of a speaker.

@prof 

No problem I understand,  you have to use whatever criteria you're most comfortable with.  The Coincident Total Eclipse II I own simply sound splendid and that's kept me thrilled for over 12 years. So for me actually listening has been the overwhelming deciding criteria I rely on. 

Charles 

@prof 

Stereo Mojo gave the Super Victory II their product of the year award.  Listed below is the link to the review leading to this award. In my mind I have no question regarding there SQ , The Coincident line has been proven to match very well with OTL amps. The owner / designer of Atma-sphere OTL Amps favors this speaker, and I got to say Ralfs expertise is light years beyond the average joe here on AG  (I guess I should only speak for myself)  Its more about the whether this speaker is a suitable choice for the restrictions my listening area imposes and the resulting speaker / room interactions. 

Coincident Speaker Technology Victory Review: Bound For Sound

For me, how some speakers may work in my room are obvious. For example a Harbeth Monitor would be no problem. On the other hand a Magnepan Magnaplanar 3.7; big problem. 

 

Brad,  No problem!  

Recent Coincident designs are anything but colored.  I avoided box speakers like the plague until I bought my Triumph Extreme II monitors.  I listen to a lot of live music, or at least I did until I moved to the middle of nowhere, and I could not find a box speaker I could live with at any kind of reasonable price until the Coincidents.  I might question the designer's business model but never his ears.  There is not a single piece of Coincident gear that I have heard that is not true to tone.  That includes the electronics.  At best, coincident gear is capable of sublime beauty. 

If I were in the market for new speakers, which I am not, I think Audiokinesis and NSMT 100 speakers would be on my short list.   I'd travel to audition, and have long conversations with both designers before purchasing.  I've talked to both of them in the past, and trust both of them to give me a straight answer on room requirements and compatibility of ancillaries. The AK speakers are nice to look at.  High WAF, I would think. 

I've really just put too much effort into optimizing the SVIIs and optimizing the room around them.  You get to a certain point and the chance that a change is going to make things worse gets pretty high.  But you know how it is, we are all perfectionists, so on occasion I long for more refinement in the midrange. 

@brownsfan 

I might question the designer’s business model but never his ears. There is not a single piece of Coincident gear that I have heard that is not true to tone. That includes the electronics. At best, coincident gear is capable of sublime beauty.

Bill, very interesting how you succinctly summarized Coincident ’s greatest strength (And they do many things well) . Purity and truth of tone/timbre. As you well know I own the Statement Line Stage, Frankenstein 300b and speakers. They do in fact share this trait. Israel Blume does rightfully deserve credit for this accomplishment. "Capable of sublime beauty " this has been my experience. Well said Bill.👍

Charles

 

 

 

@brownsfan 

Every speaker, regardless of design, is going to have an optimal placement and relationship to the main listening position in a given room, or said in another way, no speaker is going to reach its potential in a given room if you can't accommodate the optimal position.

If one is not careful to dial in speaker position and the main listening position, these speakers are capable of inarticulate bass.  If one is careful, they are capable of nice articulate bass.  This just isn't a speaker that you can plop down anywhere and get it to workup to its potential.

Both bass response and imaging benefited from an enormous effort in optimizing speaker and listening position placement as well as room treatment. In the absence of this, speaker performance in those areas was disappointing. These will not be speakers that will work in any room, and might not be the best in a room where you don’t have freedom to ad

 

Wnen setting up / positioning speakers , I follow the George Cadas Near Field Setup or a modification of, along with his Golden Cubid setup.

Of course like most Audio perfectionist I spend a good portion of a day or two inching speakers and seating around assisted by the floor grid and layout pattern outlined in "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith. I also tried to employ (where I could) other methods based on Jim's book. Equipment Rack relocation and the corner traps resulted in the most significant improvements in sound by eliminating or reducing center fill reflection and standing waves.

I believe, my near field arrangement / configuration helps with the first reflection.

After looking over my listing area (family room) I believe  that the walls would be able to accommodate sound absorbing treatment panels, without distracting from the aesthetics of the room (too much) if obtaining a reasonable SQ requires it.  I have been fairly satisfied with SQ in the past without these treatments, but recognize probably further gains could be realized with additional treatments.

@brownsfan 

So you will be wanting to find a speaker that is happy with what you can give it.  It is essentially impossible to predict that a priori.  

I agree 100%.  I think that with a reasonable amount of knowledge /  experience one can get a pretty good idea of what type of speaker would be better suited in a specific size and configured room; at least to a certain degree.  I have found that my room works best with front ported and acoustically suspended speakers but that really limits ones speaker options, especially if a high sensitivity speaker with benign impedance is a priority. 

 After reading the information you provided, I realize the potential of this speaker to be a more difficult fit (in my room) with its 12" side firing woofers, opposed to The Devore Super Nine 7" front firing woofer. I appreciate  your  Candance in describing not only the attributes of the SV, but also the shortcomings that one should be concerned with. Like Charles had mentioned, There are" concerns about literally any speaker as none represent perfection".   

My initial concern was the weight and impact of the bass and how it may be a nuisance to the neighbors, after all,  two 12" woofers is bound to generate some questions or doubt (at least for me.) For others some look for bass weighted speakers , like the Legacy Focus SE, with four 10" long throw Sub woofers (different folks, different flavors) Charles had described the bass as: "I wouldn't say that the bass reproduction is "tame" it is present yet controlled,  certainly not  overemphasized or too prominent. It will be suitably proportional to the volume level chosen." In addition to other comments / info I came across, I am drawing the conclusion that the low end wont overload or overpower my room, but requires careful speaker placement and dial in to achieve articulate bass; I would think that this would be true of any speaker going to 20-22Hz or below. On the other hand a 2.5 way with 2 ea 7"mid/woofers should be a little bit more forgiving in its placement requirement. Based on the information you provided, the real question may be; does my room have the flexibility to properly accommodate the SVIII. I'm going to contact Israel Blum and see what has to say about this and other topics and maybe arrange for a demo at his location, although a demo would reveal the SV's potential, how effective it would be in determining what sound I could expect in my room carries with it a big question mark.

I may plan to demo the Devore Super Nine in SFO.  If the dealer would permit me to use my Integrated and cables, the sound would more closely coincide with what I would be able to reproduce at home, and not so much and apples and oranges comparison.

 @brownsfan 

having the woofers firing towards each other in a narrow room gives too much cancelation due to out of phase waveforms.

I understand the problems with out of phase waveforms. But also consider the phase issues that two subs can create.  

This may or may not be, since I don't know much about open baffle speakers, but supposedly the interference between the forward and back pressure wave of the woofer some how results in a bass reproduction that some people find more musical and real than that produced in a sealed woofer.

There's an interesting statement from Stereophile found on the Coincident web site regarding facing side firing woofers inward.  Listed below.

The Stereophile Show 2001 provides a dramatic real world illustration of the benefits of mirror imaged side firing woofers. The demonstration rooms were plagued with a standing wave centered at 100 hz ( elevated in amplitude by 12db!). This was the case when the Total Eclipse woofers were firing to the outside and as other exhibitors experienced, when the woofers were front facing . However, when the woofers aimed to fire to the inside, the room standing wave was avoided and flat frequency response to below 30 hz was achieved.

I'm sure its room specific in terms with speaker to speaker and side wall distance

@pehare 

Hi Brad mine were placed about 8 feet apart between rack and about 18" from rear wall which is the long wall and sounded better with the woofers pointed inward.  Good luck and have fun!  

 

@charles1dad 

 I do understand the concerns regarding side firing woofers. In my case the woofers facing inward was just okay. When I changed to outward firing position this resulted in a "substantial " improvement. Case by case scenario as it will simply depend on one’s listening room acoustics.

Case by case scenario as it will simply depend on one’s listening room acoustics.

 

I agree Charles, positioned inward works for @pehare . Positioned outwards works for you and Bill. Room size and  acoustics dependent.  

 

​​​​​​​@charles1dad @brownsfan @hilde45 @pehare @palasr @prof @pehare @jond 

First off, sorry about the underlining of statements.  I haven't figured out (yet) how to highlight the text in this format.

I can't express how grateful I am in all the informative responses I received, and I appreciate all the effort and time you guys took in assisting me.

Your logical reasoning and the subject matter presented was and is very helpful, in a greater capacity than probably what I would have been able to come up with on my own.

Thank You Very Much

PS:  I will get there

Brad - Portland Oregon

 

 

 

 

 

@bradf, one final comment.  I encourage you to use the free Room Equalization Wizard software for optimizing speaker placement and establishing the best listening position.  It takes some effort to get up to speed on using the software, but it really isn't all that difficult.  There is a forum where you can go to ask questions, and there are a number of people on this forum that can also offer assistance in getting started including me and @hilde45.  I can tell you that I would never have gotten my room to where it is now had I not used REW.  None of the various guidelines, including the Cardas method, are able to really able to anticipate the peculiarities of side firing woofers.  REW can also help if your room is anything less than perfectly symmetrical.  

I've helped others set up a room optimally in as little as 3 hours.  My own room took a good bit longer, because I was still learning about room acoustics and how to get the most out of REW while I was optimizing.  

One problem is that when trying to optimize using critical listening, at least for me, is that my ability to listen critically wanes after an hour or two.  Memory between sessions isn't exact.  Any change in one position will offer improvement at one frequency and compromise another.  REW allows you to study in depth the impact a given change in position has on the entire frequency range, as well as issues with  excessive decay times,  You can even use it to locate points that may be compromising imaging.  

Well worth the effort, regardless of which speaker you ultimately end up buying. 

@bradf, I might also mention that I was not able to get the SVIIs work near field.  My listening position is about 13 ft from the front baffle.  At that distance, the SVIIs presentation is pretty much like a single driver.  At 7-8 ft, you can, as I recall, discern between the sound coming from the mid and the tweeter.   

Thanks again Bill

I'm sure I'll check into REW software.  Sounds like a practical and more accurate means of speaker placement . I may also want to research room correction hardware

Depending on how far the speakers are from the front wall, I sit between 10 and 12.

I think currently Im sitting about 10' with the front of the speakers out 5 feet (approx) front baffle to front wall.  One limiting factor is I really can't move my seating any further aft, due to a division in wood and carpet flooring. The aft legs of the sofa are near the edge of the carpet.

Thanks again

Brad

@bradf 

My woofers face inward in my current setup, yielding a much better in room response (via listening and measurement), than facing outward.  Room is approximately 14.5 feet wide by 21 feet long, suspended wood-frame structure (I still miss my old cement floored room).  I have tried placement on both long and short walls and have oriented the woofers in both directions in both configurations. I wound up on the short wall where the speakers are around 9' apart, and close to 4 feet from the rear wall, with some toe-in.  I would say I listen in 'mid-field'; I don't use the stock spikes - Isoacoustics Gaia I footers made a huge improvement.   Experimentation is certainly necessary to achieve correct  placement with side-firing woofers; perhaps more so than typical front-firing woofers.  Happy listening.  

 

@bradf Depending on how far the speakers are from the front wall, I sit between 10 and 12.

I think currently Im sitting about 10' with the front of the speakers out 5 feet (approx) front baffle to front wall.  One limiting factor is I really can't move my seating any further aft, due to a division in wood and carpet flooring. The aft legs of the sofa are near the edge of the carpet.

Hi Brad,

I really suspect that 10 to 12' sitting distance will be fine for you. Although the Total Eclipse II are not identical to the Super Victory III, they share 1st order crossover design and Coincident similarities. Israel Blume does insist on certain philosophical and implementation ideas  that I believe apply to all of his speakers. 

I sit 10 ' from my speakers and the vast majority of the time I cannot place the music on the face of the speakers.  In other words the music seems to be everywhere but the speaker location. Now of course this varies depending on the recordings in use.  My point is that the speakers effectively disappear in the listening room with good placement and totally affected only by the. recording limitations. 

Just have this experience last Night. The musicians were either in my room or I was seated in their recording venue (Again it varies on the recording). Bill's suggestion of using a software program is an excellent idea. I did not but I just got lucky with my room😊. Brad thanks for your kind comments above and I wish you the best in this endeavor. 

Charles 

 

@bradf I think the SVIIIs will be fine out 10-12 ft.  If your listening position is fixed, that certainly makes the speaker placement protocol easier because it reduces the multivariate problem by one element, and a very important one at that.  In my room, the optimal speaker position was a little closer to the front wall, which if it holds true in your case, could get you another foot of breathing room between you and the baffles.  I'm a bit more optimistic about you getting a satisfactory sound with the SVIIIs if you are willing to use REW measurement.  

@brownsfan

I’m a bit more optimistic about you getting a satisfactory sound with the SVIIIs if you are willing to use REW measurement

+1

Charles