Impressions of Coincident Speakers

Thank You for your input.

Brad

jond

Thnx for the reference to charles1dad.  I will PM him this week.

Brad

@charles1dad 

I have not heard the SVIII, but based on the design and specs, I'm confident in the synergistic matching of the SV with the LTA ZOTL Circuit. and I am very impressed with the materials and design of the cabinet, also speaker and crossover components are exceptional quality. The only question I have yet to answer, is the bass characteristics of this speaker. Would you please read my opening discussion and comment on the details concerning bass and room size that  I have outlined above. It's evident that the Total Eclipse II has far more bass capacity than the SV III, but your description of the bass characteristics would probably be helpful (at least in part)  in determining if the bass meets my preferences as denoted above.

 

Thank You

Brad    

@charles1dad 

@palasr 

 

Thank You of the informative and helpful description you both have provided.

I understand that as a result of the chosen woofer / q-factor, that the bass drivers are well dampened and well controlled with tube amplification.  In my case 42 @ 8 ohms/51 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

Im trying to figure out if because of the moderate wattage typically used to drive these speakers if the woofer output is more tame and neighbor friendly at moderate listening levels then what a separate sealed box 500 watt, integral amp REL type subwoofer would produce (even at a lower volume level). I want to hear what's on the recording and hear the lower register of the kick drum but not at the expense of disturbing neighbors. 

I'm hoping that at least some of that makes sense to you with regard to my preference in bass performance. Basically, I just don't know what to expect from these two 12" aluminum woofers.

Thanks for all your help and advice

Brad 

@charles1dad 

Thank you so much for taking your time to answer my questions.  You have been very helpful. Your description of the bass not being overemphasized or too prominent pretty much answered questions I had regarding the overall bass character of the SV III. Prominent and overemphasized bass is exactly how I find the REL R305 I have, even when matching sub to speaker volumes, and is what I am trying to stay away from. I think I remember at one time reading that you had installed different caps in your Super Eclipse . I may be mistaken, but if  you did, what where brand were they. Just interested for future reference

Thanks again

Brad

@pehare 

Thanks for relating your real time use and experience with your Coincident Speakers. 

Im thinking that facing the subs inward would tame the subs somewhat by eliminating any wall reinforcement.  I only ask this, because I had read where a reviewer stated the sub position didn't matter much in his room. Can you share any experience you have with the subs facing in opposed to out.  Note: with the speakers seperated 9 feet , if the sub side was positioned outward it would be a little less than 3 feet to the side wall.

Thanks again

Brad

 

Thnx

Brad 

@pehare 

Thanks

 

Brad

@charles1dad 

Under "Whats New" on the Coincident site, states the SV III uses AuricCap capacitors, metal oxide resistors, high gauge OFC air core inductors.

Thnx

Brad

@brownsfan

Thanks very much

 I find your approach to describing the attributes and shortcomings of your SVII's  very insightful and provoked some thought with respect to speaker placement flexibility or difficulties, pending on room size, common furnishings, and acoustical treatment.  I agree with you, the side firing woofer does allow for a narrow front baffle, enhancing staging and imaging, but may present  limited flexibility in placement  to achieve optimal performance, which in your case required some degree of acoustic treatment.  While still retaining decor aesthetics, I am limited to my existing bass/corner traps and Synergistic Research FEQ / HFT's for treatment.  Since this is a fully furnished family room , any additional acoustic treatments would not be practical or visually appealing.  Even thought this speaker has the cabinet and electronic design, component type (Ribbon Tweeter) and quality, and the sonic attributes that I look for in a speaker,  it s application in my room is questionable.  While not being able to audition this speaker and  the "Absolutely No Return" policy may be more of a risk and/or loss that I am willing to accept.  

Thanks again

Brad

@charles1dad 

I am in agreement with you. Well thought design, high sensitivity, benign load, and exceptional sonic qualities. Probably a very good match for the LTA ZOTL 40. Probably the best high sensitivity speaker value on the market, But may not be suitable for my room size / type, although that's still under my review.

@brownsfan provided a very intelligent perspective regarding the negative and positive aspects of this speaker , with an overview of speaker/room interaction and what was required of him to optimize SQ in his room.  After I responded to his observations and advice to me, I realized i didn't ask his room dimensions / configuration. Something I really need to do, to better understand the conditions of his room and speaker interaction that  he encountered.

 

Thnx

Brad

@brownsfan 

Hi Bill.

To better understand the speaker and room interaction you encountered while configuring your room to achieve the resulting SQ; would you please provide your room size, What type of wall, ceiling, floor material, etc.. Dedicated room or multi function., etc

Thanks again for all your time and help. It's a definite benefit in helping me make an informed decision.

Brad

@brownsfan 

Woofers, firing in or out - ?. Sonic differences between the two positions?

 

Thnx

Brad

@charles1dad 

I just believe that the more scrutiny applied will uncover concerns about literally any speaker as none represent perfection. 

 

Your right, I do have a tendency to open rocks to see how they work

@brownsfan  

Bill,

Thank You for responding to my questions regarding your listing area and position of woofers.  I am unable to comment at this time due to some deadlines , but as soon as time permits, I will follow this discussion up.

Thanks very much for all the time and knowledge you have contributed to my cause.

Brad

 

@prof 

Thanks very much, I find your comments of interest and appreciate the review link

Brad

@prof 

Stereo Mojo gave the Super Victory II their product of the year award.  Listed below is the link to the review leading to this award. In my mind I have no question regarding there SQ , The Coincident line has been proven to match very well with OTL amps. The owner / designer of Atma-sphere OTL Amps favors this speaker, and I got to say Ralfs expertise is light years beyond the average joe here on AG  (I guess I should only speak for myself)  Its more about the whether this speaker is a suitable choice for the restrictions my listening area imposes and the resulting speaker / room interactions. 

Coincident Speaker Technology Victory Review: Bound For Sound

For me, how some speakers may work in my room are obvious. For example a Harbeth Monitor would be no problem. On the other hand a Magnepan Magnaplanar 3.7; big problem. 

 

 

 

 

@brownsfan 

Every speaker, regardless of design, is going to have an optimal placement and relationship to the main listening position in a given room, or said in another way, no speaker is going to reach its potential in a given room if you can't accommodate the optimal position.

If one is not careful to dial in speaker position and the main listening position, these speakers are capable of inarticulate bass.  If one is careful, they are capable of nice articulate bass.  This just isn't a speaker that you can plop down anywhere and get it to workup to its potential.

Both bass response and imaging benefited from an enormous effort in optimizing speaker and listening position placement as well as room treatment. In the absence of this, speaker performance in those areas was disappointing. These will not be speakers that will work in any room, and might not be the best in a room where you don’t have freedom to ad

 

Wnen setting up / positioning speakers , I follow the George Cadas Near Field Setup or a modification of, along with his Golden Cubid setup.

Of course like most Audio perfectionist I spend a good portion of a day or two inching speakers and seating around assisted by the floor grid and layout pattern outlined in "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith. I also tried to employ (where I could) other methods based on Jim's book. Equipment Rack relocation and the corner traps resulted in the most significant improvements in sound by eliminating or reducing center fill reflection and standing waves.

I believe, my near field arrangement / configuration helps with the first reflection.

After looking over my listing area (family room) I believe  that the walls would be able to accommodate sound absorbing treatment panels, without distracting from the aesthetics of the room (too much) if obtaining a reasonable SQ requires it.  I have been fairly satisfied with SQ in the past without these treatments, but recognize probably further gains could be realized with additional treatments.

@brownsfan 

So you will be wanting to find a speaker that is happy with what you can give it.  It is essentially impossible to predict that a priori.  

I agree 100%.  I think that with a reasonable amount of knowledge /  experience one can get a pretty good idea of what type of speaker would be better suited in a specific size and configured room; at least to a certain degree.  I have found that my room works best with front ported and acoustically suspended speakers but that really limits ones speaker options, especially if a high sensitivity speaker with benign impedance is a priority. 

 After reading the information you provided, I realize the potential of this speaker to be a more difficult fit (in my room) with its 12" side firing woofers, opposed to The Devore Super Nine 7" front firing woofer. I appreciate  your  Candance in describing not only the attributes of the SV, but also the shortcomings that one should be concerned with. Like Charles had mentioned, There are" concerns about literally any speaker as none represent perfection".   

My initial concern was the weight and impact of the bass and how it may be a nuisance to the neighbors, after all,  two 12" woofers is bound to generate some questions or doubt (at least for me.) For others some look for bass weighted speakers , like the Legacy Focus SE, with four 10" long throw Sub woofers (different folks, different flavors) Charles had described the bass as: "I wouldn't say that the bass reproduction is "tame" it is present yet controlled,  certainly not  overemphasized or too prominent. It will be suitably proportional to the volume level chosen." In addition to other comments / info I came across, I am drawing the conclusion that the low end wont overload or overpower my room, but requires careful speaker placement and dial in to achieve articulate bass; I would think that this would be true of any speaker going to 20-22Hz or below. On the other hand a 2.5 way with 2 ea 7"mid/woofers should be a little bit more forgiving in its placement requirement. Based on the information you provided, the real question may be; does my room have the flexibility to properly accommodate the SVIII. I'm going to contact Israel Blum and see what has to say about this and other topics and maybe arrange for a demo at his location, although a demo would reveal the SV's potential, how effective it would be in determining what sound I could expect in my room carries with it a big question mark.

I may plan to demo the Devore Super Nine in SFO.  If the dealer would permit me to use my Integrated and cables, the sound would more closely coincide with what I would be able to reproduce at home, and not so much and apples and oranges comparison.

 @brownsfan 

having the woofers firing towards each other in a narrow room gives too much cancelation due to out of phase waveforms.

I understand the problems with out of phase waveforms. But also consider the phase issues that two subs can create.  

This may or may not be, since I don't know much about open baffle speakers, but supposedly the interference between the forward and back pressure wave of the woofer some how results in a bass reproduction that some people find more musical and real than that produced in a sealed woofer.

There's an interesting statement from Stereophile found on the Coincident web site regarding facing side firing woofers inward.  Listed below.

The Stereophile Show 2001 provides a dramatic real world illustration of the benefits of mirror imaged side firing woofers. The demonstration rooms were plagued with a standing wave centered at 100 hz ( elevated in amplitude by 12db!). This was the case when the Total Eclipse woofers were firing to the outside and as other exhibitors experienced, when the woofers were front facing . However, when the woofers aimed to fire to the inside, the room standing wave was avoided and flat frequency response to below 30 hz was achieved.

I'm sure its room specific in terms with speaker to speaker and side wall distance

@pehare 

Hi Brad mine were placed about 8 feet apart between rack and about 18" from rear wall which is the long wall and sounded better with the woofers pointed inward.  Good luck and have fun!  

 

@charles1dad 

 I do understand the concerns regarding side firing woofers. In my case the woofers facing inward was just okay. When I changed to outward firing position this resulted in a "substantial " improvement. Case by case scenario as it will simply depend on one’s listening room acoustics.

Case by case scenario as it will simply depend on one’s listening room acoustics.

 

I agree Charles, positioned inward works for @pehare . Positioned outwards works for you and Bill. Room size and  acoustics dependent.  

 

​​​​​​​@charles1dad @brownsfan @hilde45 @pehare @palasr @prof @pehare @jond 

First off, sorry about the underlining of statements.  I haven't figured out (yet) how to highlight the text in this format.

I can't express how grateful I am in all the informative responses I received, and I appreciate all the effort and time you guys took in assisting me.

Your logical reasoning and the subject matter presented was and is very helpful, in a greater capacity than probably what I would have been able to come up with on my own.

Thank You Very Much

PS:  I will get there

Brad - Portland Oregon

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks again Bill

I'm sure I'll check into REW software.  Sounds like a practical and more accurate means of speaker placement . I may also want to research room correction hardware

Depending on how far the speakers are from the front wall, I sit between 10 and 12.

I think currently Im sitting about 10' with the front of the speakers out 5 feet (approx) front baffle to front wall.  One limiting factor is I really can't move my seating any further aft, due to a division in wood and carpet flooring. The aft legs of the sofa are near the edge of the carpet.

Thanks again

Brad