Im looking for the next upgrade. I'm not real sure which way I want to go Help!

The Don Sachs pre I mentioned earlier is amazingly still available and actually dropped in price to $2250.  Also there’s one in the cheaper metal case for only $1500. I’d take either of these over a PrimaLuna in a heartbeat, but that’s me. 
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649919944-don-sachs-model-2-line-stage-preamp/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649898977-don-sachs/

and +1 @fstein 

+1 @jerryg123 

+1 @knotscott 

OP- the room and setup will determine AT LEAST 50% of the sound quality you will hear. Always dial in those first, THEN buy different gear if you feel you must.

 

fisher_400

71 posts

11-27-2022 at 03:51pm 

Although I am a 100% tube amp person, a tube preamp and especially so with tone controls into a SS power amp will sound great. A tip: use new JJ E83cc for 12AX7s available at Amazon. 12AU7 use Brimar tall plate (ebay), 6SL7use 6SU7 Tong Sol and 6SN7s use Sylvania 6SN7GTA.
 

Intended as sarcasm?

Although I am a 100% tube amp person, a tube preamp and especially so with tone controls into a SS power amp will sound great. A tip: use new JJ E83cc for 12AX7s available at Amazon. 12AU7 use Brimar tall plate (ebay), 6SL7use 6SU7 Tong Sol and 6SN7s use Sylvania 6SN7GTA.

I have been reading all of your suggestions.So far I am thinking my next step will be a tube pre amp.I came across a Prima Luna EVO for 1600 so far. I am also looking at Manley's 300B pre amp as well. opinions please

An amplifier better suited to those panels will work wonders.  Gryphon certainly makes wonderful amps and integrateds.  Of my customers, the best match we Have found with MLS is AVM.  The warmth of the MOSFET output stage combined with the raw power of their amps delivers a pretty awesome combo.  
 

I am not a Gryphon dealer.  I am an AVM dealer. 

I am looking for a fuller sound I’ve heard ESL 13’s with a Gryphon Mephistopheles and was very impressed. Right now in thinking what I have is on the anemic side

The room and placement are a huge part of the equation

@pvmike I owned ML Montis and heard 11A and 13A several times. I would describe the sound as smooth, never in your face. The presentation is pleasant but does not excite nor is it extremely engaging. It’s more about striking the balance and keeping away from potentially crossing over the boundaries. These speakers play it safe  

I think going with a good tube preamplifier like the ARC Ref series will definitely be a significant improvement compared to the preamp section of your streamer but I wouldn’t bet on the overall presentation to yank you out of your chair and cause you to start tap dancing. That’s not what the MLs are about. If you want that type of excitement you need dynamic speakers that can do that.
Just my opinion.

Slow way the heck down. It all takes time. 

Big thing is your room and getting your ML's setup right. 

Room acoustics!!!

I would recommend a Audio Research tube preamp. This would be the next step in refinement and fidelity. I would recommend buying used and look in the $5K range.

Enthusiasm for this pursuit is key and admirable. The increases in fidelity are nearly limitless. I have been pursuing this for over fifty years and each upgrade during that time has rendered my system’s sound better and much more enjoyable. But to get the very best sound requires a great deal of planning and research.
 

You have done really well so far. I think after purchasing a great preamp I would spend a lot of time listening and learning before embarking on the next steps. As you move on you will want a well thought out game plan for future upgrades. I recommend Robert Harley’s The Complete Guide to High End Audio as a great place to get the lay of the land.

I use a pair of ML Impressions with an ARC tubed preamp and a Classe two channel amp. It has delighted me for years, and I have never felt a sense of fatigue and or any kind of thin sound. 

The MLs will sing with good tube pre and amp combo.  Adding a sub can be fun if it's set up well, but I'd definitely make letting the MLs breath the higher priority.

I don’t think using the streamer as a preamp is doing you any favors at all, and I’d look to try a good tube preamp that I bet will yield improvements across the board. What’s your budget? I’d highly recommend looking at this Don Sachs pre that will add life and tonal richness to your system yet still with excellent, natural detail, and it’s only $2450. If it doesn’t work just turn around and sell it for little/no loss, but many say this is an end-game preamp. Definitely worth a shot for what you’re looking for IMHO and could save you big $$$ over other options.  My bet is it’ll blow you away just going by what you’re hearing now and how elated other Sachs pre owners have been.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649919944-don-sachs-model-2-line-stage-preamp/

I am looking for a fuller sound I’ve heard ESL 13’s with a Gryphon Mephistopheles and was very impressed. Right now in thinking what I have is on the anemic side

I used to have a system very similar to yours.  None of those components are still in my system.  So really you can go in any direction.  

Now my ML's were CLS and needed a behemoth amp to drive them.  i don't know how many watts your ESLs need with their powered woofers.  If you can get away wtiht 20 or 30 watts, I love the electrostatic sound.  

Assuming that is true, the easiest way for you to make a big change in your sound is with an integrated tube amp.  If you must to SS, I highly recomment the Kinki Studios XXXXX+  (I have one but can't remember the initials).  Great integrated.

JErry

I am thinking about a dedicated tube pre amp

Think about a really good tube preamp, it will be a big step up.

What sound characteristics are most important to you, and what improvements are you looking for over what you have now?