I Was Considering Active, Then I Watched This ...

I am shocked, shocked there’s misinformation from Steve Guttenburg. How could anyone with such great taste in attire possibly misinform?

A lot of mis-information in that Guttenberg article.
Almost none of his generalisations are true of ATC.
- All amplification made in house and has been for decades
- No DSP, all analog active crossovers with class A/B output 
- exemplary reliability as required by around the clock studio use
- Service/replacement of active amps available for models that are decades old
Not sure if Steve is just ignorant or has gone soft in the head?

An active speaker can:

- correct for unit to unit driver variation better than the best manufacturing


- tune the crossover perfectly in frequency and time for the exact drivers in every unit produced


- correct for phase across the whole frequency spectrum

- use current feedback from the driver to implement distortion reducing drive

- use position feedback to reduce distortion

- use feed forward control methodologies to reduce distortion


... As a start


External amps will never be able to accomplish what internal amps will be capable of if accurate sound reproduction is your goal.

Hmmm. 

My understanding is that to run in an active configuration that the amps neednt be inside the speaker.The conveniance of having the whole lot in one package appeals to our sense of tidyness,the advantage is the direct amplification without a passive crossover. 

Time for a break in this discussion? Hi Ho Silver, Away!

Enjoy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKXc1Ai2rEA&ab_channel=PetrStanicek

audio2design - very interesting comments, thanks.

Deep understanding of the drivers and how to correct for their faults and understanding what is a factor of driver and cabinet and correcting for same.

invalid75 posts12-11-2020 8:45pmI don't understand why you need a speaker manufacturer to build an active speaker, when you can make a lot of speakers active with an active crossover and your choice of amps.

Damning truth for me is that I have been going to trade shows for 30 years and have never heard anything particularly good as the rooms are awful and totally mask speakers. If you are using shows as reference I don’t know what to say.

Active speakers will be for people who want accurate reproduction. Passive speakers will be for people who think what they like is accurate.

It is impossible to achieve in a passive speaker what is possible in an active speaker. It is a simple truth.

douglas_schroeder2,742 posts12-10-2020 9:12pmOne damning truth for me is that in 15 years of shows I don’t recall any active speaker (Legacy audio being the exception; hybrid) making my top 3 of show, ever. Until they actually DO outperform they are for me a waste of my time.

That's "invalid" I am not seeking a speaker manufacturer to build me an active speaker, but I do like your advice. I will need to research what you are talking about and see how to exactly do this.

I don't understand why you need a speaker manufacturer to build an active speaker, when you can make a lot of speakers active with an active crossover and your choice of amps. 

http://prnt.sc/w0w9bv

If this worked, the speakers would be on either of the fireplace (which will be removed). I think, from the corner on the left to the side of the door is around 12’. Windows to the left (no widow coverings). Room L’s into the small kitchen to the right. The length of the room is 40’ with the front door exactly opposite the one you see in the pic.

Slightly vaulted ceiling walls are wood paneling and eventually, the floors will be vinyl planked floors. The ceiling is OSB which I think is a bit sound deadening?

The person who built the house must have worked at an OSB factory or something a lot of the interior walls are OSB too. Not to mention the top side of the ceiling joists and the underside of the floor joists are also fully sheathed in OSB. Unrelated, but kinda weird.

I originally had some Spatial in mind or maybe some Magnapans but I’ve heard neither. With little room to pull any speakers out into the room, away from the wall (there will be couches and chairs in close proximity, then a dining table beyond that). I think anything that needs room to breathe might not be a good fit.

This is when I started thinking active(ly).

I was hoping that our next home would have had a nice, dedicated listening room, but as I previously mentioned, due to Covid, my wife and I had to step it down a bit. Basically, this place is a cabin.

Not in a rush either, this home is in a big state of disrepair. I am hoping to be listening to some tunes by late next summer, after getting through this mess.

For that "Close to the wall thing" I going to listen to some (passive) Larsons on the 26th.

I forgot how, but I will try and get some photos up of the room up. I haven't even taken possession yet, so they might just be from the MLS site.

Maybe I'll call Fritz about a floor stander Eric?

Thanks for all the info folks, great stuff.

People fixating on whether the amp is internal or external are emphasizing the wrong thing.  I'm sure there are a lot of cheap active speakers that aren't very reliable but that's because they're a cheaply made throwaway items.  You can get active speakers with external amplifiers.  If you want ATCs with external amps you can order them that way.  They just stick the amp in a separate box, no big deal.  Both ways are compromised with different strengths and weaknesses.  There are great examples of both and terrible examples of both and personal preference obviously comes into play.  The stuff people get hung up on.

When I hear people say that dsp can take room problems out of the equation I have to say something.  It can certainly help, but a really reverberant room isn't going to be solved by dsp.  An empty plaster room with wood floors in a brick house is going to have problems and dsp can't solve them.  It can ameliorate them to some degree but there's no way speakers can stop the echo.

@high-amp

I would love to see Fritz try a 2.5 or 3 way model with his drivers and materials, but I don’t want to put the poor guy on the hook for my dumb ass ideas. ;-)

Best,

Erik

+1 erik_squires

If passive is an option and I could make them work in my room.
Fritz would be high on my list...Custom made floor standers?

audiorusty - In the past, I purchase a microphone off Amazon and downloaded Room Perfect. I found the whole thing a little overwhelming.
I gave up and returned the mic. I need the DSP for Dummies edition!

Darko seems to like the Buchardts A500 bookshelf's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctB_Dfmv4s

OK folks. Listen up. Here’s WHY active crossovers are so very much better than passive.

... Except when they are not.

A single loudspeaker driver is an inductor, and provides a frequency dependent,

the fact that there are multiple impedance peaks in most driver’s impedance curve should give us a clue that they are not electrically a simple inductors but an inductor, plus a resistor plus a resonant circuit.

But do please go on...

give you a frequency dependent impedance curve which looks like a Coney Island roller coaster. And that’s just for a tweeter high-pass circuit.

So, without taking this much further, almost any competent SS amplifier will handle these impedance issues. Please look at the simulated speaker load curve in any Stereophile amp review. Even for tubes, it’s not that bad.

Some speakers, like << PLUG!! >> Fritz << /PLUG! >> are naturally a lot better than others and will behave very very well even for modest tube gear.  Joseph Audio is another brand that seems to take impedance flattening seriously.

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that you cannot make an exceptional active crossover, but these arguments have for the most part been overcome by modern, low output impedance amps.

I’ve heard TERRIBLE fully active systems, and I’ve heard sublime traditional systems.



Best,


Erik

djones51 - I was considering these:

A700 Bundle White — Buchardt Audio

twoleftears -  8C speaker | Completely accurate music reproduction. - Dutch & Dutch 

Getting close to double the price of the Buchardts'. Not most pleasing looking speaker. And nothing against bookshelf's as long as there on the bookshelf, not really big on stands. Unless of course, there like theses: 

  Fleetwood Sound Company - Loudspeakers by OMA | Home

I respect Steve, I do not follow him closely, but in previous videos of his that I have seen, he seems to come from a position of experience and research. In this video he seems to come from a position of speculation and assumption. There are plusses and minuses to everything and the only opinion that matters is yours.

With such lousy room and not really any options for acoustic treatments, a few have suggested that active is possibly a cure-all for this?

The only way an active speaker can help with a lousy room is if they give you access to adjust the parameters in the DSP to allow you to tune the speaker to the room. Active speakers with ARC is one way of adjusting the parameters. Out board DSP units like those from MiniDSP, DBX,  XTA and others, allow you to adjust the parameters via built in interface or computer or both.  You can also adjust some of the parameters with out board analog e.q.s

SG states about ¾’s of the way through his rant that "as the speaker ages you get stuck with the out-of-date DSP”

Any technology will become out of date as it ages. DSP in a lot of cases can easily be kept up to date with software updates downloaded from your computer.

Dutch & Dutch seem very appealing--active done right.  For people who don't want to mess around and for people trying to reduce boxes/clutter, clearly the way to go.

What speakers are you looking at high-amp?

Don't forget the seniors with hearing loss who may be best suited for actives firing directly into the face.

Profoundly ignorant doesn't even begin to describe this comment.
I owned the passive version of the active speaker I currently own (Legacy Audio Calibre). Fronted them with a Musical Fidelity M6 500i integrated amp and an Esoteric K-03 player. The passive and active speakers reside in the same location in the room set up the same way. The current set up is significantly better. Micro and macro dynamics, sound staging, inner detail are all improved. Believing the blanket statement that active speakers cannot do these things well is like believing that all horn speakers have resonances and a cupped hand sound to vocals. It is just not true. 

russbutton

Great post, thanks but could you clarify this please"

 "So instead of dropping $7,000 on that Threshold Stasis 8.0 power amp. You could spend much less on an active crossover and the various much more modestly priced amps of your choice"

The active speakers I'm looking at are the full meal deal, amps, Dacs, DSP all in. Spending less on an active crossover and purchasing a cheaper amp. This sounds like separates. How does it work? 

dave_b

+1 " You lost me at desktop 😳"

OK folks. Listen up. Here’s WHY active crossovers are so very much better than passive. A single loudspeaker driver is an inductor, and provides a frequency dependent, reactive load to an amplifier. Looking at the image here, the blue line on the bottom is the frequency dependent impedance curve for an SB Acoustics SB29RDAC Ring Dome Tweeter, and it typical of any dynamic tweeter. As you can see, it is anything but flat, yet it is listed as having a 4 ohm impedance. It’s 4 ohms at about 1200 hz, but at 600 hz, has an impedance of nearly 10 ohms.

Now if you put a passive crossover circuit in front of it, you add capacitors, resistors and inductors, which then give you a frequency dependent impedance curve which looks like a Coney Island roller coaster. And that’s just for a tweeter high-pass circuit.

Now when you add in mid and bass drivers, with high and low pass filters there... It’s a real mess. But we’re not done there yet. Nope. Many of your extreme hi-end loudspeakers add in equalization to their crossover designs, which makes that impedance curve even worse. This is very hard for an amp to properly manage. That’s why people drop many, many thousands of dollars on things like Krell, Threshhold, Bryston, or Rowland Research solid state power amps.

Now when you use an active crossover, an amp channel only has to manage a single driver. There’s no passive, reactive component in between the amp and the loudspeaker driver. Then you don’t need a megabuck amp to deal with it.

All of the Linkwitz loudspeaker designs use outboarded active crossovers. Earlier designs used analog crossovers, but his last designs were all digital crossovers. There are some digital crossovers that offer DSP EQ, which allows you to tailor the total system response for the room you are in. Then you’re not just limited to whatever sound your speakers give you in the room you’re stuck with.

The lowest cost active crossovers are typically pro grade, from manufacturers like Behringer, dbx, Rane or even Nady. There are many manufacturers. Some of the best known home audio digital crossovers are from miniDSP.

Another major benefit is that you can use much, much lower powered amps when you use active crossovers. A lot of power is wasted having to push through a passive crossover. You really don’t need to push many watts into a tweeter or mid-range driver to get a lot of level out. You could even run a single ended tube amp on your tweeter, and a mid-level tube power amp on your mid-range driver, and a solid state amp for the bass driver. You have a lot of options.

So instead of dropping $7,000 on that Threshold Stasis 8.0 power amp. You could spend much less on an active crossover and the various much more modestly priced amps of your choice.

Hey, I'm old too, and I love my separates, but I don't have a lot of money at this time to chase that right combination and even if I did have the cash, I even have less time (because I'm old) to recoup if I don't get right the first time around.

With such lousy room and not really any options for acoustic treatments, a few have suggested that active is possibly a cure-all for this?

This is a great, thread with lots of good opinions, I'm just soaking them ALL in!

But I thought the whole idea is that powered speakers (with DSP) are suppose to take the room (somewhat) out of the equation?

DSP with active or passive speakers will help do that if used correctly. One of the advantages of active is DSP tuned crossovers. You mentioned Buchardt, it's companies like them and Dutch and Dutch,  Kii, GGNTKT and others looking to the future not back at old guys like me is what high fidelity will be not what it was, but better. 

You lost me at desktop 😳

curlyhifi

But I thought the whole idea is that powered speakers (with DSP) are suppose to take the room (somewhat) out of the equation?

I'm really surprised at the varying opinions here, pretty divided with pros & cons.

1extreme

" My boom box in the garaurage..."  

I'm just trying to get it right in my liviauring room.

I consider myself to be fortunate. I live in a house that was built in 1800.
I have always been passionate about good sounding music that is well recorded. I have one system that plays music throughout the house and outside patio and porch areas.( Music everywhere ). I also have five different systems that are set up in separate rooms. Out of the five I have one system that consists of Benchmark HGC DAC 2 controlling a Mac mini and an Oppo 105 feeding 2 Focal TWIN6 BE powered Speakers along with 2 Focal CDM Subwoofer playing in the Den. The sound is amazing soft or loud it really delivers. I also have a Krell KRC-3 and KSA-200 s powering B&W 805N (rebuilt ) with REL S/510 subwoofer in a dedicated listening room. Now playing the Krell in the listening room it blows away the Benchmark Focal system . When I had the Krell in the Den it wasn't as good as the Benchmark Focal. When it comes to powered speakers it all depends on your room and how you set them up. BTW there is a place for both.

I’ve had 3 sets of powered speakers/monitors on my desktop system. None were from big-name/big-quality studio monitor specialists such as Genelec, ATC, Hedd, and so on.

I ended up moving away from powered monitors for 2 reasons, both somewhat peculiar to me & my system:

• The smaller factor: Any active speaker can issue self-noise (consequence of the amp running the driver direct, not through a passive crossover). None of the 3 powered pairs I had did this to any real degree, but I’ve read too many user comments about too many brands (including some good/expensive brands) to completely disregard this--particularly in my nearfield application.
• The bigger factor (by far): Most active speakers are the province of professional audio studios. There are a few audiophile examples, but really very few. So in general, as one surveys the field of possible powered monitors, the majority of all candidates are designed for users to rarely if ever simply use them for music enjoyment. To whatever extent powered monitors are "voiced," most of the voicing is aimed at flat, clinical, even forensic sound.

If I had the space and the funds, I would happily try one of the powered ATC models. My passive monitors are ATC SCM12 Pro’s, and they really made me a believer in what ATC can do for music.

I don’t exactly feel the trepidation that Steve Guttenberg speaks about in this video--but in general I do feel that for someone like me, whose primary interest is music appreciation, powered studio monitors are probably not the place I should be looking.

This is just his (Steve G.) opinion and he has not tried other active speakers. I have heard the ELAC Navis ARB-51's active speakers and they are great. I think all audiophiles at least should give active speakers a try, why not? It is part of the hobby. Bryston has an interesting approach to active speakers: https://bryston.com/active-loudspeakers/

rsure

... the downside of losing everything if something goes wrong is a huge negative, at least for me ...

Same here. That’s one reason I buy separates.
It shouldn’t be rocket science to find an amplifier well-suited to any given speaker. If that’s not the case, then there’s something wrong with the speaker.

jperry- and you care about what he says because ...?
You need to listen for yourself.

It’s not the listening part I was questioning it’s the compact nature of the active speaker over that of a passive and what better effects they might have on a lousy room. Something, I thought an active speaker may be a better solution for.

Also, it seems extremely difficult to listen to active speakers anywhere, at least around this neck of the woods. So if I want to listen for myself, it looks like I have to arrange a purchase with an in-home trial. If that’s the case, I really need to narrow down the field as I don’t want to get on the return shipping merry-go-round.

SG states about ¾’s of the way through his rant that "as the speaker ages you get stuck with the out-of-date DSP"

According to Buchardt their active speakers have been designed to be upgradable by switching out the active module which can be easily done in 5 minutes with only a screwdriver. They will be producing a series of videos on how to do this shortly.

Not sure if any of the other active speaker manufacturers offer this option to upgrade, but it sounds like a good future proof feature.

I'm holding out for a pair of active speakers with an internal amp, DAC, CD player that is also portable. Hey! My boom box in the garaurage does that.

"Fools and young tone deaf rubes may beg to differ, but The Audiophiliac speaks truth!" 

Don't forget the seniors with hearing loss who may be best suited for actives firing directly into the face. 

I used to be in the pro-actives camp until my own experience with them. I read all the great reviews and also lisetned to (sounded great) and bought the KEF LS50Ws but after having different issues with 3 (yes 3!) pairs of replacements I finally managed to get a full refund from the dealer.

While there is probably an advantage in that you get a properly matched amp and speaker in one system the downside of losing everything if something goes wrong is a huge negative, at least for me. It doesn't help that none of these speaker companies have any meaningful warranties on their active systems with 1 year being the norm (at least the ones that I know of). I was lucky my KEF LS50s had all the issues in the first year itself so could get replacements and finally the refund. 

Actives not for me after my experience with a powered sub.  Granted the sub is 13 years old, but it is a Paradigm Sub 12 that cost $2499 new.  Worked great until it just stopped.  Plugged into a surge protector and wired to a Marantz Pre/Pro that is still working fine.  My guess is that the amp or the board controlling the amp just quit.  Nothing much I can do to fix it.  Think about spending significant $$$ on a pair of actives-- and then the amp in the speaker stops working after a decade or so.  You OK with that?  Not me!

Nitro is oldo?  So nothing matters but your brain...uh, no!  Anyway, I watched Steve again and I have to say, he is spot on.  Fools and young tone deaf rubes may beg to differ, but The Audiophiliac speaks truth!

Also, it wouldn't be hard to tap into and replace the onboard amplifier with an outboard on.

And for that matter, it wouldn't be that difficult to turn a passive speaker active without outboard amplifiers and a processor.

It is interesting that you actively described (??) the difference between an "audiophile" and a "music lover." OMG. So horrrrrrrible! I am an aging (old) fellow who was born LONG before this "stuff" became a drug to the masses and so damned confusing to beginners that they listen to the garbage of today and think it's MUSIC. I KNOW that I love music, no matter if it is from an old AC/DC tube set or a modern source. It ain't the box, it's your ears and MIND which hear the music. If you become obsessed with the electronics, you forget WHY you are listening in the first place. de KQ2E

Teo seems HighO!  It’s a compromise to have active speakers and is technology mostly embraced by the professional audio sound people.  They listen for frequencies, not tonal shadings or micro dynamics...certainly not for the differences in instrument voicing or spatial imaging.  All of us have goals in what we hope to achieve in our systems.  If having active speakers and DSP lights your fire and attains your personal goals, then congratulations!!  Some of us want to hear the sweet rosin flaking off the bow of Bell’s violin as he digs in for the climax, or the burnished breathy whiskey colored texture of a Coltrane sax solo.  So many colors exist for those willing to explore the jagged landscape of high end audio...I’ll choose my own amplifier.  

Outboard active, with separate amplifiers. where cabling and wiring and crossover and amplification choices can be individually made.

Some of the components of passive filtering have to remain. Should remain. Must remain.

As there are some parts (aspects of the total equation) that are best done passive.

This tends to be the best use of active or passive.

Take the best part of each and abandon the parts that don’t work very well.

This is both a tall and complex order that not all audio participants are going to welcome, due to the complexity that is going to come into existence. A whole bunch of areas where some sort of minimal competence will have to be gained, over time.

A gear-head solution for the deeply involved.

For the rest of the audio world participants, it is out of range, it fades into the mists of overt complexity.

Thus the argument remains and will remain.. as each person shapes the nebulous impenetrable clouds of that innate complexity... into the shape they see in their minds.

There is no solution here. Only an innate complexity that is largely too complex for just about anyone here -to bother with.

If they penetrate the mystery and gain skills that allow them to swim well in that complexity of half passive and half active... the message cannot be brought back and then somehow interpreted by those who aren’t going to ever ’go there’. 

The message will be lost in translation. It will be viewed as gobbledygook seeming as if it is coming from the mists of the given personal projection - into unfathomable reaches.

Meaning... one cannot venture to the audio godhead... and come back with a decipherable message for others.

That’s not how it works.

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices. -J. Krishnamurti

and you care about what he says because ...?

You need to listen for yourself.

I have only seen a few of this guys videos, and have never liked him. Doesn't really sound like he even gave many options a listen.

I can't really comment on full range actives as I have never heard a high end pair (I do have a JBL L16 that sounds great for what it is).

About a year and a half ago I upgrade to the Legacy Whisper XSD, so active woofers and just wanted to make one comment in regards to his concerns of fitting the amplification into the speaker.

I would imagine most (if not all) active speakers, are utilizing digital amplification for the woofers like the Whispers. The whole need for that hefty transformer and size of some other components in the component amplifier is to drive the low end. Take that need away with digital for the bottom end, and the rest of the amplification could likely be fitted with analog if so desired.

Next time say up front its the Audiophiliac so I know not to waste my time.

 ...quantum linked directly to a performer’s recorded brainwaves....

Sounds interesting....you go first. ;)

At 2000£ retail one could challenge the passive dogma and go for actives and there are plenty of decent models out there. 
But you can’t get a dCS Vivaldi inside a speaker enclosure. You can’t shrink a Pass or a D’Agostino or your favourite valve amplifier. You can’t have a hefty power supply with separate wiring for analogic / digital. 
The manufacturer might be able to give you a reasonable compromise on a budget. But the word “budget” is key. Active done right is separate sources / crossovers / amps. 
I suppose a massive enclosure could accommodate some of the above. But there is a reason why people separate streamers from dacs, dacs from preamps and so on. The fact that it can technically be done doesn’t mean that it should or that it sounds better. 
I tried most room corrections on the  market - now I am playing with Room Perfect. If room correction sounds BETTER there is something wrong with your system / room.