My stereo room is 12x12 and already have the Sonus Faber V speakers and love them. I'm looking at upgrading to the VIII, but don't know if I have enough room. I'm running these with the Naim Star, NAS and use Nordost Frey 2 speaker cable and power cord. Also, am looking at trading my Star in for the Lumin T2 streamer and the new Levinson 5805 integrated. Any thoughts or suggestions?
My opinion (which is worth what you payed for it) is that the Sonetta VIIIs are going to be a really big speaker for that room. I don't think you will gain anything by moving to the larger speaker in that small of a room.
I would look to step up to a higher quality speaker rather than just a larger speaker. Not sure what your total budget would be but that would be my first priority.
Not sure what speaker size you are considering, but as everyone here on audiogon knows my opinion = bigger is NOT better. Especially if the listening room is limited size,,,12x12,, ceiling 8 ft? 12x12 x 8 is limited,,,12x12 with say a 16 ft ceiling, now you have options. IMHO smaller the speaker = superior the sound,,,let me rephrase that,,, the bigger the speaker = less chances at high fidelity... Been around audio now 40+ years, I know what I am talking about You must be new at this hobby.
What I would do, have your room professionally treated by GIK. If you haven’t already, it will balance your bass to mid/treble energy better, in addition to improving clarity and imaging.
Do that long before you think about switching speakers.
I cannot tell you how many people do this and discover how much bigger their speakers sound.
I'm in a basement space which is bigger than your room but with low ceilings. It absolutely could not accommodate tower speakers -- Focal 836, Martin Logan ML 60s. Bookshelves with a sub was the ticket. Easy to play with placement, too.
You can toss all the above bad advice. Some of it is outright plain wrong. Adding bass for example is exactly what you need. Your biggest problem is not size but being square, 12x12. But 16x16x8 would be bigger but at least as bad. Simplistic thinking combines with poor understanding. People hear the obvious boomy bass in a room like yours and assume too much bass so solve it with small speakers. Wrong.
I wouldn't go with any of the stuff you like but I wouldn't hesitate a moment to get better speakers simply because they're "too big for the room".
Regardless of speaker you're going to want to control the lumpy bass identical dimensions causes, and early reflections. In that order.
Lumpy bass is best solved with more bass, not less. Using multiple subs will allow you to put them in different locations to excite different room modes and ultimately achieve much smoother bass. Duke himself, owner and speaker designer at Audiokinesis, says the benefits of multiple subs are even greater in small rooms than large.
Just one of the ways people misunderstand the realities of the situation you're asking about.
Will the speakers fit in the room? Will you be able to place them with drivers at least 3 feet from walls and ceiling? Then they are not too big.
Easiest way to get good sound in a square room. Use active speakers with digital control like Genelec, Dutch and Dutch, Kii, new company GGNTKT might be another. There are others you can research. I've used passive speakers with outboard control it helps but isn't as good. You'll need less room treatments and get better results. One thing you don't need is a passel of subwoofers in that small room you can get all the bass you need for music with a couple of Genelec 8361A.
I am in a 12x12 with focal 1028be and Hegel h360 and still sometimes wish for more speaker. I think it depends on your listening style as much as anything else.
Many Japanese audiophiles do something highly counter-intuitive: They use large horn loudspeakers in small rooms. Speakers conceptually similar to the Altec Model 19.
But maybe they are onto something: These large-format horn loudspeakers have fairly narrow and unusually uniform radiation patterns. So they put less energy into the early reflections, and in general the narrow radiation pattern results in the direct sound dominating over the reflections. And the uniform radiation pattern means that reflections will be spectrally correct, such that they support (rather than degrade) the timbre.
I’m not necessarily suggesting a pair of Altec Model 19’s, but rather advocating the general concept of starting out with controlled-pattern loudspeakers when the room is challenging.
Also, if this is a dedicated audio room, given its square footprint, I suggest setting up your system on a diagonal. This geometrically precludes early sidewall reflections. It is the earliest reflections which most strongly convey a "small room signature". If we’d rather hear the acoustic signature of the recording venue, then in a small room the earliest reflections are the ones we most want to minimize. In my opinion.
And maybe even try your system ALMOST on a diagonal... like perhaps off by ten degrees. This puts your woofers each at a different distance from all of the walls, which may make a worthwhile improvement in the bass region.
Had a friend who worked at Stereo Exchange in New York . He once told me being able to have any system he desire , that the most important thing in a Audio System setup was Acoustics . Work on the acoustics of any particular room then worry about the hardware . That up to 70% of what you hear in a particular system is the sound of the room .The good thing of working your room is you do it only once . You can upgrade this or that of your system but what you did for the acoustics of the room never changes . Take care and be safe .
That up to 70% of what you hear in a particular system is the sound of the room
Absolutely!! Until you treat it, you can't hear anything. What I think happens is that over a long period of time, Audiophiles learn to hear past the room acoustics, but it's like watching a movie in a smoke filled room.
I can also say that I've gone through a lot of hardware, but I've NEVER played merry go round with my room acoustics. I've only added more pieces.
Square rooms should be avoided. You will have a hard time overcoming the limitations and acoustic issues of a square room by upgrading any of your components. If the spare room is your only option, I would seek help fro GIK before doing anything.
Two questions: 1) Have you specifically identified what you think is inadequate about your existing speakers? 2) As others have noted, a 12X12 room is problematic from due to standing wave issues at specific frequencies. Do you have any acoustic room treatment installed? If not, you might consider that first.
It is always interesting when someone says they love their speakers and want to upgrade..please don't tell me you are looking for more bass. Everyone is looking for more bass. I would guess you are looking for a rich textured mid-range with good front to back layering and you would like the speakers to disappear so you are left with just the music.
The Charney Audio Maestro would be a perfect fit for your room. Charney designed the Maestro specifically for smaller rooms. I happened to be at Charney yesterday we listened to the Maestro with Lii Fast8 drivers ($2800.00) in his 14x19x9 room. Although the room is too large the Maestro put on a great performance. Very open soundstage, pinpoint imaging, with adequate clean bass. The Maestro maintains all the goodness of the upper tier Charney offerings just designed for a smaller room friendly platform.
The Lii Fast8 is a new driver for Charney and the site hasn’t been updated yet.
Duke, millercarbon, and erik have some valid points. Square rooms are bad particularly for bass, directional speakers are the best way of avoiding room interaction and a large percentage of the way a system sounds is due to the room. So how do we integrate all these factors. Will going to VIII's solve anything? Not really. With more bass it might even make the situation worse. This is a room for small Maggies, ESLs and some absorption on the front wall behind the speakers. Horns would also work like Klipsch Heresys or Cornwalls. Down the line you could add four small subs like Duke's system. I really like Sonus Faber but dynamic speakers like that need more room to breath. Right now you are being assaulted by early reflections from all sides.
Square rooms should be avoided. You will have a hard time overcoming the
limitations and acoustic issues of a square room by upgrading any of
your components. If the spare room is your only option, I would seek
help fro GIK before doing anything.
J.Chip
Mijostyn
Duke, millercarbon, and erik have some valid points. Square rooms are
bad particularly for bass, directional speakers are the best way of
avoiding room interaction and a large percentage of the way a system
sounds is due to the room. So how do we integrate all these factors.
Will going to VIII's solve anything? Not really. With more bass it
might even make the situation worse. This is a room for small Maggies,
ESLs and some absorption on the front wall behind the speakers. Horns
would also work like Klipsch Heresys or Cornwalls. Down the line you
could add four small subs like Duke's system. I really like Sonus Faber
but dynamic speakers like that need more room to breath. Right now you
are being assaulted by early reflections from all sides.
millercarbon
You can toss all the above bad advice. Some of it is outright plain
wrong. Adding bass for example is exactly what you need. Your biggest
problem is not size but being square, 12x12. But
192.168.0.1routerlogin192.168.10.1 would be bigger
but at least as bad. Simplistic thinking combines with poor
understanding. People hear the obvious boomy bass in a room like yours
and assume too much bass so solve it with small speakers. Wrong.
I
wouldn't go with any of the stuff you like but I wouldn't hesitate a
moment to get better speakers simply because they're "too big for the
room".
Regardless of speaker you're going to want to control
the lumpy bass identical dimensions causes, and early reflections. In
that order.
Lumpy bass is best solved with more bass, not less.
Using multiple subs will allow you to put them in different locations
to excite different room modes and ultimately achieve much smoother
bass. Duke himself, owner and speaker designer at Audiokinesis, says the
benefits of multiple subs are even greater in small rooms than large.
Just one of the ways people misunderstand the realities of the situation you're asking about.
Will
the speakers fit in the room? Will you be able to place them with
drivers at least 3 feet from walls and ceiling? Then they are not too
big.
Hi all, Thank you very much to everyone who posted. I had an idea of what issues I should pay attention to. I will write the results here again. Best regards.
don’t under estimate your NAIM. Look at speakers that don’t require the 3’ into the room rule of thumb. Duke mentioned some, others are Larson and Vandersteen Treo, there are of course many horns that do this. Not my cup of tea, but I get it. Don’t overtreat the room. The diagonal experiment Duke suggests is FREE, try the gig tommorow
I am the king of small rooms, I have had many set-ups in small rooms that sounded great. In fact I had a 12X12 room not long ago. A small room has it’s limits on volume because the room gets saturated and the sound is bouncing all around. But listening in the near field can be very interesting and enjoyable. My only concern about larger speakers in a small room is if the tweeter and midrange drivers get too far apart you my have an issue with seating height and finding the vertical sweet spot. Other than that bigger/better speakers always sound better than smaller/lesser speakers (most of the time with some exceptions).
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
