Thermal compression the ignored factor and why many systems start to sound fatiguing after a 1/2 hour or so of use, Impressive sounding at 1st, hard sound after some use. Most think its there ears or there just tired of listening. But to me hi eff designs mostly free of this issue means one can listen all day long without tinnitus or listening fatigue.
How to get the impact of a live concert?
Yes, I know, big speakers, lots of power. : ) But I really am looking to "feel" the dynamics of the music, like you would at a concert. I'm not only talking about bass, although that is certainly a part of it. My wife and I were at Dave Matthews Band concert last night and it always amazes me, how impactful music is when it's live. Obviously, I understand they have a LOT of power driving a LOT of speakers, but they were filling the whole outdoors (outside venue). I'm only trying to fill my listening room. Would a good sub help? Different speakers?
I currently have Gallo Reference 3.1's and Klipchs Forte II's (Crites mods) driven by a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista M3.
I currently have Gallo Reference 3.1's and Klipchs Forte II's (Crites mods) driven by a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista M3.
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Hughp3, you are correct. But many modern drivers can have a lot more excursion than the head of many kick drums, depending on how that drum is tuned. I have dual 15" woofers in my speakers, which helps a lot. If I really crank the system, it will play at levels I can only tolerate with earplugs- you can feel your organs vibrating in your chest, pants cuffs moving, etc. If I had a real drum set in the same room, I would experience the same thing. Without a sound pressure meter its hard to say if I am really at the same volumes but for me its moot- I don't play the system that loud :) |
I may be off line here but to replicate say a live kick drum: would not the speaker array need to excite Exactly the same volume of air (both in front and to the rear) at at exactly the same speed, at exactly the same frequencies etc.. as the kick drum? Then we also ask the same system to replicate a clarinete at the same time and on and on. Not going to happen any time soon with current technology. I have a good system (Krell, Wilson, AR Ref5) and its still lacking to live instruments and voice.. Its a quest |
My speakers at home are rated at 97 db. My room is 17' x 21' and I listen about 12 feet from the speakers. I have always felt that our MA-1s (140 watts) did the best job- it seems impossible to clip them on that speaker. Duke just illustrated in spades why that is so, and also the need for efficiency in a speaker. A potential customer called recently. His speakers were rated at 87db at 2.83volts/1 meter. The impedance was 4 ohms, but the manufacturer admitted to the customer that that was a typo and the real impedance was 2 ohms. Doing the math that puts the speaker at only 81 db. A speaker with efficiency this low is not criminal, but only because there is no law against it! The fact of the matter is that I would never be able to use that speaker in my room without 2000 watts per channel. I don't care what amp you have, there is no amplifier made that makes 2000 watts and sounds like real music. Efficiency is important! - if for no other reason that if you want the speaker to sound like music, it will not do it if the amplifier cannot also sound like music. |
Thanks, Mapman. The actual situation with regard to dynamic compression is more complex than what I described above, but I don't fully understand all the mechanisms at play. The I've seen measurements which indicate that the advantages of high-efficiency speakers in this area are even greater than the arithmetic suggests. In some cases, the measurements actually indicated dynamic expansion (the opposite of compression), but I can't explain why. Duke dealer/manufacturer |
The real thing is the real thing, but short of that there are many ways to achieve good results. First of all, you must realize that everything matters when it comes to optimizing a system...amp, speakers, cables, room, PC's etc..! Budget will narrow down the field considerably. Are you building a completely new system? How big is the room? Music genre most appreciated? |
One thing to look at is minimizing thermal compression. As a ballpark rule of thumb, a driver will exhibit about 1 dB of thermal compression at 10% of its rated power. Now this "rated power" would be according to some engineering standard. Usually "music program power" is twice the actual rated power. And "recommended amplifier power" is who knows what, but probably at least twice the actual rated power. "Peak power handling" is utterly useless. So you want to take whatever the manufacturer is claiming and transcribe that back to "rated power". Next, you want to consider the "crest factor" in music. The crest factor may well be 20 dB or more on good recordings, which means that you have peaks 20 dB louder than the average volume. So if you're going to listen at 85 dB average, you'll probably want to be able hit 105 dB peaks with negligible (1 dB or less) thermal compression. And look at how the speaker's efficiency is rated. Anechoic? In-room? Is it relative to one watt, or 2.83 volts? Based on broadband average SPL, or a single peak? What protocols a manufacturer follows can make a big difference on paper, and you need to correct back to 1 watt (at the listening position) efficiency to make apples-to-apples comparisons for the sake of examining thermal compression. I know of an instance where one speaker was rated 8 dB louder than another, yet their real-world efficiency was essentially identical. Okay, we didn't talk about amps much, but consider that the speaker's impedance curve may well work against the amp's rated power output. Impedance curve dips and/or peaks (especially above the bass impedance peaks), along with nasty phase angles, can all reduce the real-world power than a speaker delivers. Plenty of reserve power seems to always contribute to improved dynamics, so err on that side. How far back are you sitting? How big is the room? Do the speakers approximate a point source, or a line source? Wide pattern or narrow pattern? All of this will affect the SPL at the listening position, which is what you want to be looking at. As a ballpark approximation, you can probably expect the room's reflections to add back about 3 dB at the listening position from a typical point-source speaker in a moderately reverberant room. If the manufacturer already did that when he calculated the speaker's rated efficiency or sensitivity, you don't get to add that back in again. But you do get to add the second speaker's output, which will increase the SPL at the listening position by about 6 dB relative to a single speaker. So suppose you have honest 88 dB/1 watt/1 meter point-source-approximating speakers, and you listen from about 13 feet away. Why thirteen feet? Because that makes the math for this example easier - you see, thirten feet is about 4 meters. So expect about 12 dB of theoretical anechoic falloff going from one meter back to 4 meters (6 dB per doubling of distance from a point source), then add back in 3 dB for the room's reflections, plus another 6 dB because you're listening to two speakers, and you have 85dB/1 watt at the listening position. In order to deliver uncompressed peaks of 105 dB at the listening postition, your speakers would have to be rated at about 1000 watts (not "music program", not "recommended amplifer power" and certainly not "peak" - but rather, rated consistent with an accepted engineering standard). If you listen at about 9 feet, then you need 3 db less output from your speakers to hit your target of 105 dB uncompressed at the listening positon. So you can get there with honest 500 watt rated speakers. This of course is not all there is to dynamics, but it's a start. A little arithmetic will show that efficient speakers with moderate (doesn't need to be extreme) power handling are good candidates. Subsitute an honest 98 dB speaker into the example above and you can get there with an honest 100 watts rated power handling at 13 feet, or 50 watts at about 9 feet. And I'm NOT saying these numbers are absolutes; rather, I'm trying to raise awareness of thermal compression and emphasize the role that speaker efficiency and power handling play. Duke |
Because of their transmission line frequency dependant manner of sound wave propogation via wave bending, good walsh drivers might have a design advantage when it comes to delivering percussion dynamics at certain frequencies with minimal effect on others resulting in less distortion in that different freqencies leave the cone at different locations unlike a conventional dynamic driver. My ohms are scary good with percussion and dynamics when the recording presents a challenge. |
I agree with an earlier post in this thread by Wolf Garcia that it is virtually impossible to get that explosive quality of a kick drum right over a home system. I use very efficient horn speakers which have a self-powered dynamic subwoofer system and that in part is the biggest failing of the system. The dynamics of a live performance can be startling- not just loud. But, in most halls of any size, you've got a much bigger room, high SPLs (too high much of the time in my estimation) and in rock concerts, very heavy, powerful bass that is taking advantage of a big room. You also notice how the sound of the room changes as the venue fills, and it seems, at least to me, once the seats are filled, the sound board guys usually crank it up more. I don't like listening at ear shattering levels in my room, which is not terribly large anyway. So, even though I can get some serious dbs from my system, even with modestly powered SET amps, I choose to get the noise floor as low as I can first, so I can make out as much 'nuance' at low levels. With a good quiet record surface of a good, dynamic recording (keep in mind I'm a vinyl only guy, so I have to contend with record surface noise, among other things), I can get a very good approximation of 'lively' through my system. But, if I go to the club about a mile down the road, not a big room, it holds a hundred people, so it's a good bit larger than my listening area, you hear that kick drum, and you know you've failed. (Oh, yeah, I can make my bass slam if i crank the crossover settings and gain up on the woofer, but that sounds unnatural). This is one of the reasons I'd eventually like to migrate to a larger horn loaded woofer system in my next, larger room. |
I went to a guyÂ’s house to listen to his speakers a couple of months ago. He had some old Jensen pro speakers. When we played my Salk demo disk the first half of the songs sounded a lot like a live concert. There was little image, boomy bass and a live music sound. The sound was arguably better than my Salks. When we played the last half of the disk the sound just fell apart. The first half was mostly amplified music that sounded a lot like the amps used on a stage. The second half was mostly natural music that could be listened to with little amplification. You can imagine what would happen if you put a live symphony orchestra on stage amps. LOL Bob |
Wolf, the SPL meter would probably work fine, just place it near the speaker so you don't have to run huge volumes. If you are really intent in this borrowing a sine/square generator should not be that tricky. BTW, a sine generator does not do this test nearly so well as a low-distortion sine oscillator. Sine generators don't put out a perfect sine wave. |
Everyone has an opinion, some not as good as some others, but I have been doing this a very long time, (40 years), and I would ask first: what city do you live in? If you are in St. Louis I would invite you over to my house to hear my system:It takes me to a place where all I do is enjoy the music, whether I'm playing acoustic or electronic jazz, rock, or trip-hop, (Pandora Radio gets it done!),. I would suggest you: 1) Talk to someone you already know about building you a pair of his 15" 3-way speakers w/o the mid and high frequency horns (approx. $750.00), these would then become your sub-woofers. 2) Then order an XM-9 3-way cross-over from Marchand Electronics (Approx. $750.00), Hopefully, your amp has pre-out, amp-in connections, if so then you can insert the cross-over between them and send 100hz and above to your Fortes, and everything below 100 hz to the subs. Use the amp in the integrated to power the Fortes, and use another (VERY, VERY, CLEAN) amp to power the subs. The Marchand crossover has adjustments to smooth out the transitions between frequencies, and even though it a 3-way cross-over, you can use it as a two way ,(Phil Marchand will tell you how when you order it), and you won't have to buy another unit when you get the itch to upgrade! You can get inter-connects and speaker wire, (Canare), from that store in New York, (what's the name of that place?)Canare is used by studios to wire their mikes when they record music, as it is extremely open and neutral, and will transmit the detail you have paid all that money to hear. You should not need to buy any more monitors as some think that the Fortes out perform the Heresys in the bass. So, Give all the components at least a couple of months to start breaking in and call me, I will gladly and humbly accept your thanks. Concerts are generally bi-amped because monitors sound much better when they don't have to swing low bass notes, and the Fortes should give you great detail through their horns and woofers. This is how I have my system set up, and I am in concert every time I turn it on, (again, Pandora Internet Radio gets it done, kid!)I hope you have a good cd player or streamer, I use my computer for Pandora, but I still spin cd's . Hit me back, I would be interested to know what you think of my suggestions. My system: Audio Alchemy ACD-II cd player Lite Dac-AH D-A converter Jolida 3000-B preamp: tube Musical Design SP-1 preamp: prototype,tube Marchand Electronics XM-9: 3way cross-over Crown Straight-Line Two preamp: solid state Jolida 3000A power amp, 200 watt/ch:tube (monitor amps) Musical Design D-75 amp:solid state, (sub amp) Sound Dynamics 300Ti: monitors 8 in. 3way Custom 15" subs from your friend (who shall remain nameless: when I asked him to build mine he replied "I hate I ever started building speakers!"); so under no circumstances use his name ON THIS SITE, or NO HI-FI FOR YOU!!!(LOLOLOLOL) I cross my system over @ 80 hz, you may or may not prefer 100 hz. |
Hi Wolf, sure: You need an amplifier of any type, a speaker, a VU meter and a sine/squarewave generator. Run the sine through the amp and speaker. Put the VU meter on the amp/speaker terminals and set the level for 0VU. Now cover up the meter, turn the volume down and set to squarewave. Turn up the volume until you hear the same level. Uncover the meter. You will see it reading a lot less, typical is -25 to -20 db. Squarewaves are composed of odd ordered harmonics. You can see from this simple test that we are a lot more sensitive to them than the actual fundamental tone! |
Wolf, General Electric proved that that the human ears uses odd ordered harmonics to determine the volume of a sound back in the mid-60s. Its not really open to debate anymore- its more about- what to do about it? IMO what their research indicates is that you really don't want to add any odd ordered harmonic distortion, even in vanishingly small amounts if you can at all help it. BTW this is why two amps can measure the same bandwidth on the bench, but one will be bright and the other not. *Real* dynamics are indeed the difference between loud and soft, but in audio it usually is more about the distortion. When you get rid of it you find that the system can play any volume without sounding loud- its always relaxed, yet there is plenty of punch, enough to shake the walls. Now there are ways that audio products take advantage of this psycho-acoustic phenomena. An example is the SET amplifier. They have high distortion at full power and unmeasurable distortion at low power. As the music plays louder, the transients are where the real power comes into play. At low power what distortion the amp makes is mostly lower orders (2nd harmonic) but on transients where more power is required the odd orders come into play. This results in the loudness cues being present on the transients (as far as the ear is concerned). This is why SETs are known for being a lot more dynamic than their small output power would seem to indicate. Effectively, the distortion is masquerading as dynamics. If, on the same speaker you then substitute an amplifier that is lacking the odd ordered harmonics, you will find that you have to turn the volume up considerably higher to get the same apparent volume. But if you measure it with a sound pressure meter, then you will see what is happening. I find that getting as much bandwidth as possible, along with the no odd ordered harmonics is the key to getting life-like presentations. This is very hard to do with transistors, as the non-linear aspects of the devices themselves contribute to odd-ordered harmonic distortion (and to be clear, we are talking about vanishingly small amounts such that it is difficult to measure, but our ears are more sensitive to these harmonics than just about anything else), making is very difficult to build a transistor amp that does not come off as bright or harsh (both are indicators of the presence of odd ordered harmonics). This is not to say that you can't do it with transistors, its just that its a lot harder. I can count on one hand the number of transistor amps that do what tubes do easily in this regard, with fingers left over. IOW this requires a re-think of how we do things. Take a look at this article: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php The Power Paradigm is all about obeying human hearing rules, the Voltage Paradigm is about making the equipment look good on paper. If anyone is having difficulty understanding how the ear uses odd ordered harmonics, there is a simple test I can outline that demonstrates it very effectively. |
See This interactive chart for more details. |
There are certain parts of the sound spectrum (upper mid range I believe) that human ears, particularly male, are more sensitive to. Distortion that occurs in this range is of most significance towards a pleasant listening experience. Thanks to evolution and natural selection, this range also happens to correspond to that of the female human voice. Apparently, someone out there wants us guys to respond when our wive's are calling. Strange, but true.....:-) |
Music is only composed of harmonic content so yeah...but I don't think distortion necessarily increases perceived loudness. Example: I can play electric guitar cleanly or with various types and degrees of distortion (ss stompbox FET or Mosfet, or amp tube overdrive) and keep the loudness the same, and the level sounds the same...doesn't cut through a mix any more or less. Also, "loud and clean" can be perceived as louder since nothing is compressed...distorted tone will get lost in the mix easier. I might be wrong, but this is what I've experienced as a guitar player and live sound mixer for decades...If I'm mistaken please deduct 6 points from my score. |
Here you go: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/62/627320.html One thing not mentioned in that thread is the in 80% of all audiophile conversation, the word 'dynamics' can be effectively replaced by the word 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation. This is because most audio circuits make some odd-ordered harmonic distortion, and the ear uses odd-ordered harmonics to determine how loud a sound is. |
07-11-12: Newbee I would like to read this thread you are referring to but it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Do you have a link? |
I just went to a symphony concert Thurs. night--Ligeti's "Atmospheres," R. Strauss's "Also Spracht Zarathustra," and Host's "The Planets." Big, bombastic, large scale orchestral works. Generally speaking, it's a unique experience. However, the rig in my experience that came closest to reproducing that sensation was a pair of Wilson Alexandria XLF's driven by a pair of D'Agostino monoblocks with Transparent Opus MM Reference cabling. This setup had the transparency, the speed, the holographic imaging, and that most elusive part--a sort of baseline energy in the room even during the silent passages. |
It's all about physical compression that happens in the speakers and the room itself that reveals playback vs. live experiences to our ear/brain and there is simply not much we can do about it. It's simply physics that imparts this limitation. Loud won't cut it, it just exacerbates the compression factor. Every room and speaker system has an optimal or maximal loudness level beyond which this compression just increases (usually experienced as "beaming" from the tweeter/midrange drivers). Most speakers have an enclosure or driver limitation, or both, beyond which compression increases logarithimcally and again, there's nothing we can do about it. Some absorption can help reduce phase cancellation and increase dynamic range in the room, but again, only so far. I have simply accepted this and have learned that if I want live, I go see and hear live. |
Size matters, Modern stereo can reproduce small ensembles, single instruments, small groups with astonishing clarity, and presence. Imagine fitting them in your room love, live, thats how I see it. Now Imagine fitting 3 rock stars with their guitars, a drum set Live in your room, no amplification (what kind of havoc it would cause with acoustics) .... they will be squished against each other on one corner and the drums on the other corner (of your 15 x 20 ft room) ... It gets pretty loud pretty quick. Now lets get the LA phil in your room- (from google) A modern orchestra has about 100 instruments The string section includes 34 violins, 12 violas, ten cellos, eight double basses, and two harps, for a total of 66 instruments. The woodwind section includes three flutes, three clarinets, three oboes, three bassoons, one double bassoon, one piccolo, one English horn, and one bass clarinet, for a total of 16 instruments. The brass section includes four trumpets, six French horns, three trombones, and one tuba, for a total of 14 instruments. The percussion section contains a variety of instruments, including four kettledrums, and such instruments as the chimes, xylophone, triangle, and cymbals. Physics dictates to reproduce a concert exactly as it was recorded, you need the room of appropriate size, transducers which can reproduce the energy (this is what you would call dynamics) of over 100 players. Otherwise its just a window. Kind Regards |
07-12-12: Rlwainwright bingo. In monkeying around with a dedicated room recently, it became very clear how parasitic most of our "listening environments" can be. I was able to get more snap out of a Marantz AV amp and cheesy, $300 Klipsh, Best Buy speakers in a dedicated room than my big rig in an untreated room. Mechanical grounding or acoustic "energy management" is important somehow in the home setting. That's exactly what I'm talking about! It's not the volume, it's the "snap, pop, impact", whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying I want concert level volume. I just want that feeling that live music gives or I should say, I want to get closer to that feeling. And I'm asking how I can get closer? Yep. Dynamic transients. Not SPL per say. |
In the early 80s I stuck 300 watt 15" bass guitar speakers in my Altec A7s...either JBLs or Electro Voice ...now THAT handled the thump. The "phased array" stuff you hear in most large concerts are interesting designs...usually stacks of class D self powered boxes with a couple of beefy 10s and one or two horn drivers in each, along with high power subs with 15 or 18 inch drivers. Much more bang for buck compared to the older stuff, and about 10 times the power. |
Have you ever heard a home system that has met the goals that you are looking for;if you have then I would take notice of what gear was being used and then compare to your setup and consider making changes. Remember that the listening enviroment will be a factor that you can try to emulate as well.I think you can come close to live sound but it is probally extremely hard to replicate;for me it is pink floyd that I heard twice in Mpls,Mn;I have a high end system and it comes close but it is still not the same as being in the metrodome mainfloor center stage not very far from david gilmour and richard wright;enjoy the quest as it is part of this fine hobby. |
Zu audio speakers use pro drivers based on those used in most Marshall stacks etc but modified for domestic use. I've never heard speakers with more guts, shove and scale....... Sure they're 101db but you can power them with 300w and no compression....... Dynamic scale, head room and speed are so unusual compared to HiFi speakers. Live music is where it's at for me....... Normal studio based CDs are lacking in musical emotion ........ But maybe I'm not normal l!!!!! |
I don't think there is any way to acheive live music dynamics in a home environment. As you said large speakers and big power will likely get you the closest if thats what you seek. A sub or two may help if your current speakers are bass deficient, but speakers are designed with a delicate balance and a sub will mess with that. I still prefer sound quality to huge dynamics that always come with high DB levels. |
I'd personally feel a little weird sitting alone in a huge room in my McMansion with huge speakers driven by mega watt amps...listening to my fave little jazz trios? I'd have to get a smoking jacket or something...Bach cello suites blasting away...really? I'm seeing Sonny Landreth at a cool local venue this weekend...seen him before and he's amazing...but I don't want Sonny and his band in my hifi room. I like his recorded stuff plenty, but live is to be seen live, and I enjoy the difference. |
it sucks that you have to pay for an astronomically-priced Focal, Kharma, Wilson, Rockport, etc. speaker system. but with adequate amplification with the right sources AND a well damped room, you CAN get (95% of) the impact of a concert performance. but it is extremely rare to come by an audio store that is willing to put that kind of a system on display. the day i got a glimpse of what is possible, on the other side of the room the Wilson WAMM speakers were placed was a Goldmund Reference turntable, and a rack of some of the best and most exotic gear available at the time. the speakers were driven by a pair of Levinson 20.6 class-a monoblocks and a bridged-mono bryston amp for the subwoofers (2 X 18 in. in 6 foot tall cabinets) . the room was magic whatever they played in it. i'm no expert but high-end audio at the extreme end of the scale is pretty phenominal if it's set up correctly. |
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One may get close to the live impact...but will never truly get there with today sources. There are many home speakers that can reproduce live dynamics if you put a band in the middle of them (lascalas, khorns, and many other horn speakers). NO ONE can disagree that multiple sets of lascalas driven with 1kw of crown power could reproduce a band VERY loudly....(makes me wanna puke just thinking of that combo) but the source is the issue IMO... |
Here's some reality...relatively "uncompressed" sound is one difference that the live stuff gives you...and NO home audio speaker I know of could handle even one live miked kick drum thump without exploding...none. Period...you need extreme "pro" drivers for that with huge voice coils and proper acoustic loading to get anything close to live uncompressed thump, and, frankly, I don't personally care to use that in my sweet little hifi rig. If you want live sound, hire musicians. |