How to get the impact of a live concert?


Yes, I know, big speakers, lots of power. : ) But I really am looking to "feel" the dynamics of the music, like you would at a concert. I'm not only talking about bass, although that is certainly a part of it. My wife and I were at Dave Matthews Band concert last night and it always amazes me, how impactful music is when it's live. Obviously, I understand they have a LOT of power driving a LOT of speakers, but they were filling the whole outdoors (outside venue). I'm only trying to fill my listening room. Would a good sub help? Different speakers?

I currently have Gallo Reference 3.1's and Klipchs Forte II's (Crites mods) driven by a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista M3.
ecruz

Showing 6 responses by atmasphere

Wolf, General Electric proved that that the human ears uses odd ordered harmonics to determine the volume of a sound back in the mid-60s. Its not really open to debate anymore- its more about- what to do about it?

IMO what their research indicates is that you really don't want to add any odd ordered harmonic distortion, even in vanishingly small amounts if you can at all help it. BTW this is why two amps can measure the same bandwidth on the bench, but one will be bright and the other not.

*Real* dynamics are indeed the difference between loud and soft, but in audio it usually is more about the distortion. When you get rid of it you find that the system can play any volume without sounding loud- its always relaxed, yet there is plenty of punch, enough to shake the walls.

Now there are ways that audio products take advantage of this psycho-acoustic phenomena. An example is the SET amplifier. They have high distortion at full power and unmeasurable distortion at low power. As the music plays louder, the transients are where the real power comes into play. At low power what distortion the amp makes is mostly lower orders (2nd harmonic) but on transients where more power is required the odd orders come into play. This results in the loudness cues being present on the transients (as far as the ear is concerned). This is why SETs are known for being a lot more dynamic than their small output power would seem to indicate. Effectively, the distortion is masquerading as dynamics.

If, on the same speaker you then substitute an amplifier that is lacking the odd ordered harmonics, you will find that you have to turn the volume up considerably higher to get the same apparent volume. But if you measure it with a sound pressure meter, then you will see what is happening.

I find that getting as much bandwidth as possible, along with the no odd ordered harmonics is the key to getting life-like presentations. This is very hard to do with transistors, as the non-linear aspects of the devices themselves contribute to odd-ordered harmonic distortion (and to be clear, we are talking about vanishingly small amounts such that it is difficult to measure, but our ears are more sensitive to these harmonics than just about anything else), making is very difficult to build a transistor amp that does not come off as bright or harsh (both are indicators of the presence of odd ordered harmonics).

This is not to say that you can't do it with transistors, its just that its a lot harder. I can count on one hand the number of transistor amps that do what tubes do easily in this regard, with fingers left over.

IOW this requires a re-think of how we do things. Take a look at this article:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

The Power Paradigm is all about obeying human hearing rules, the Voltage Paradigm is about making the equipment look good on paper.

If anyone is having difficulty understanding how the ear uses odd ordered harmonics, there is a simple test I can outline that demonstrates it very effectively.
Wolf, the SPL meter would probably work fine, just place it near the speaker so you don't have to run huge volumes. If you are really intent in this borrowing a sine/square generator should not be that tricky.

BTW, a sine generator does not do this test nearly so well as a low-distortion sine oscillator. Sine generators don't put out a perfect sine wave.
Hi Wolf, sure:

You need an amplifier of any type, a speaker, a VU meter and a sine/squarewave generator.

Run the sine through the amp and speaker. Put the VU meter on the amp/speaker terminals and set the level for 0VU.

Now cover up the meter, turn the volume down and set to squarewave. Turn up the volume until you hear the same level. Uncover the meter. You will see it reading a lot less, typical is -25 to -20 db.

Squarewaves are composed of odd ordered harmonics. You can see from this simple test that we are a lot more sensitive to them than the actual fundamental tone!
Here you go:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/62/627320.html

One thing not mentioned in that thread is the in 80% of all audiophile conversation, the word 'dynamics' can be effectively replaced by the word 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation.

This is because most audio circuits make some odd-ordered harmonic distortion, and the ear uses odd-ordered harmonics to determine how loud a sound is.
My speakers at home are rated at 97 db. My room is 17' x 21' and I listen about 12 feet from the speakers. I have always felt that our MA-1s (140 watts) did the best job- it seems impossible to clip them on that speaker.

Duke just illustrated in spades why that is so, and also the need for efficiency in a speaker.

A potential customer called recently. His speakers were rated at 87db at 2.83volts/1 meter. The impedance was 4 ohms, but the manufacturer admitted to the customer that that was a typo and the real impedance was 2 ohms. Doing the math that puts the speaker at only 81 db. A speaker with efficiency this low is not criminal, but only because there is no law against it!

The fact of the matter is that I would never be able to use that speaker in my room without 2000 watts per channel. I don't care what amp you have, there is no amplifier made that makes 2000 watts and sounds like real music.

Efficiency is important! - if for no other reason that if you want the speaker to sound like music, it will not do it if the amplifier cannot also sound like music.
Hughp3, you are correct. But many modern drivers can have a lot more excursion than the head of many kick drums, depending on how that drum is tuned. I have dual 15" woofers in my speakers, which helps a lot. If I really crank the system, it will play at levels I can only tolerate with earplugs- you can feel your organs vibrating in your chest, pants cuffs moving, etc.

If I had a real drum set in the same room, I would experience the same thing. Without a sound pressure meter its hard to say if I am really at the same volumes but for me its moot- I don't play the system that loud :)