How much will you pay for an exotic cartridge....

Probably 2K
but it depends
Corona infected country: cartridge for free + 1k from the distributor cash

you can't regulate people. The only way is to educate people.
For educated person charlatan lawyers don't make sense. 
In audio there is no known standards so education is tricky - for example I know 3 persons capable to calculate and to wind output transformer properly. But these proper results are different. So at the very end it's not standard - it's subjective experience or taste.

Sorry about typos - problem with phone screen

@daveyf 
charlatan lawyers -

there are a lot of unregulated people who cal themselves legal experts that give advice. Members of the public think they are getting a solicitor which would afford standards and protection. Instead they get idiots who ball things up - rip off people and provide a poor service - sadly - in the short term people are happy with cheap fees - until something gpes wrong...

Contracts apply only for the parties involved. The ''third persons''
can't claim any right to others contracts. Judicial simplification
is the reduction to ''creditor'' and ''debtor'' relation. So the importer
has an contract with manufactirer with mutual obligations . If one
of bouth commit default the other can bring charges against him
according to the involved national or internation (private) law. 
Those implay judicial procedures which are costly so the practical
solution is dissolving of the contract. Without mutuall trust there is
no honest relation possible.  At present with ''on line'' product
distribution the relation  is ''reduced'' to direct contract between
producer and buyer with the same ''general'' contractual obligations.
On priciple that is. The seller should publish his liability. 



 

Agree with millercarbon’s points. Hell, sometimes with the savings you can buy a SECOND, if you get ripped off on the 1st one or some reason, and STILL come out ahead. And I really think getting ripped off is pretty rare in this game (always shop smart). For those of us who can buy mail order and install it ourselves, the reality is that there is very little value to dealer / distributor support on a cartridge. I build a long-term relationship with my local dealer for tube amps, speakers, turntable, etc - and it works out great! Both parties happy. With cartridges the value just isn’t there. You buy the cartridge, and if it’s going to be defective it’s most likely going to be immediately apparent - so you request a refund for DOA, which applies no matter the source (PayPal or CC dispute as a last resort for sellers who won’t play ball). After that, it’s probably either going to die by your own (error) hand, or through use over a long lifetime (hopefully!).

The only exception to this is if you miss out on any sweet trade-in or rebuild deals that may be provided only through the "authorized" channels (it would have to be a hell of a sweet deal though) - or manufacturers that won't service retip / rebuild cartridges without a paper trail. 

@lohanimal I think what you states applies far more to gear like amps and speakers than it applies to cartridges. Same goes for cables, reputed to be the biggest profit source in high end audio.

BTW, are there actually any “charlatan lawyers”..?

As the world of high end audio shrinks - so do the dealers that can demo a product. I don't mind uplift when there is good product support and advice - along with demos. Theres a lot of risk in audio these days and at the top end i guess businesses taking big risks on products that don't sell in high numbers justifies a greater uplift. There's an awful lot of manufacturers and dealers who really are not making much money at all - in fact it is a labour of love and in many cases a side job. it's no wonder that many shops and importers have shut up shop and closed down. Maybe they have to work harder for their money now and expect lower profits, but that might not be financially feasible. Think about it - import - duties - stock - premises - staff even before a sale...
I owned my own law firm for a short time and sold it within a pretty short time as people thought to shop for law on the web and through the odd internet search - whilst the law society did not clamp down on charlatan lawyers. You pay your money and take your choice.
I try to buy new goods from dealers - that's just me.

interesting thread.

i happen to be the customer described in the opening post who bought the cartridge which prompted the USA distributor to get upset. it’s a complicated situation which i’m not going add anything here about. people have their perspectives and opinions.

i have bought and sold many pieces of hifi gear in my life, and typically anyone who is selling the brand/model that i have bought gained from my ownership of that product. i am pro-dealer, pro-distributor and pro-manufacturer.

that particular distributor decided his own path.

in my day job i manage a franchised auto dealership and deal with this stuff x1000.

btw; i love the cartridge, it’s easily the best i’ve ever heard. and i've heard a few.

if you are one of those folks who are happy with the performance of their thirty year old cartridge and its veiled performance, then I can see how saving a lot of $$ is beneficial.

I am one of those guys on audiogon who actually compared some of the best NOS vintage cartridge to $3000-5000 NEW modern LOMC cartridges reviewers are raving about. I did the comparison tests in my own system, not at distributor’s system or his shop. And i paid for all my cartridges and purchased over 50 different samples, in my situation it wasn’t about saving money, more like a personal research.

Never in my life i would buy a $4000 cartridge again, the price has nothing to do with performance and i know it. This is nothing but marketing and someone already explained this strategy in the earlier posts on here. You’re perfectly explained how big is the distributors margin in modern high-end world.

The only way to find out what’s the best is to buy and compare, the only modern cartridge i’d like to keep is my Miyajima Kansui, the rest of my cartridges are all those rare vintage models (the best ever made, mainly MM and MI, but some of the best LOMC too .. all in perfect condition like new and fully original).

@chakster  Great points...maybe. Kind of depends on whether you believe that as cartridge prices increase performance remains the same, past a certain level. IME, that is not always the case, some of the more $$ cartridges do sound better than their cheaper brethren. OTOH, if you are one of those folks who are happy with the performance of their thirty year old cartridge and its veiled performance, then I can see how saving a lot of $$ is beneficial. 

Not everyone living in the world where $6000 cartridge is normal and $4000 is bargain. Even saving $2k you still have to pay another $4k just for the cartridge (this is madness). 

A lot of great cartridges cost 5-10 times cheaper and the difference between grey market sellers and official dealer is very little so it makes no sense to buy from grey market dealers trying to save $100. So for the reasonable priced cartridges (say $1k max) this problem is irrelevant. 

Some people created a lot of troubles accepting prices like $4000-6000 for a cartridges!

When your cartridge retail is $6000 you can save about $1k buying from grey market dealer, but the manufacturer will never swap your worn cartridge for the new one (or next model) for 60% of retail like they do for official buyers, they will send you back to the dealer. Both scenario is weird, once you bought it officially you're hooked and the manufacturer suck your money forever, when you bought it on the grey market cheaper your cartridge can be used until the stylus worn out or suspension collapsed and then it will be refurbished by some one else with different parts.    

In my opinion it's better to select and buy 6 different cartridges for the price of 1 for $6000.  
  

Grey market goods are still manufactured by the company , they are just distributed through alternate means.  Perhaps a dealer in EU needs to unload excess inventory and sells to an out of territory dealer.   These products are of the same exacting quality we all expect, they simply weren't sold by the authorized dealer the manufacture expects to sell in a specific country.  Nothing "Illegal" about it, in fact the vast majority of the used items on Agon are by any definition grey market.

Someone made a watch analogy earlier in the thread, only real difference is the demand for watches is far higher than for Audiophile gear.   

I imagine it would blow some peoples minds to think there is a wait list for all steel sports model Rolex's.  I remember when I bought my first nice watch after college, Rolex wasn't a great brand and they were desperate for sales.  Now sales people actually laugh at customers who ask to see/purchase the popular models such as a Submariner.   I live near NYC and can't get my local AD to return my calls or allot me a watch.  Leaves me no choice if I want a particular watch to buy it "Used" as there is no other option aside from popular Grey websites that seem to alway have inventory being provided to them.  

This all reminds me....I actually wrote to my Rolex AD yesterday offering to buy an $11k watch (less popular model) and I never heard back from them!!  some business they are in today, hate to see what happens to them when the economy turns.

For what it’s worth, I think the term "gray market" was coined in the USA in the late 1970s, to describe a market for certain exotic automobiles that could be purchased in the US through normal dealer channels but which in that case would be loaded down by emission control devices and huge ugly bumpers which were then mandated by the US DOT. In those days, those cars if sold in the European country of origin, usually Germany or Italy, were unhampered by such devices, looked a lot better, were a lot faster. (I remember test driving a legal 1976 Porsche 911S; it was a joke on the Porsche reputation. From 1975 to maybe the mid- to late 1980s, "legal" Porsches were no fun.) In response to a demand in the US for unfettered performance from these expensive cars, there was a business associated with illegally importing Euro versions and modifying them to comply with US standards for emissions and etc. Such emission controls could often be removed by owners, once having passed inspection. Problem was that the workmanship performed and the add-on gizmos installed in order to pass inspection were often shoddy. Those cars were not warranted except possibly by the shady companies that marketed them, and that was the "gray market". If something went terribly wrong, you were stuck. Re-sale value was poor.

@dover   Very interesting post. The Air Tight PC1 you mention is a good example of this pricing strategy. Now maybe this cartridge was so under priced at its inception and that the market demand was so huge after the review, that this lead to a change in the pricing. We have to believe that market demand drives pricing...and that the price now asked is apparently in line with said demand. OTOH, IF folks were unwilling to pay the current asked price, and the only price that sufficient demand for the PC-1 was at $2000...then I question whether this cartridge would be selling at its current price. Or, maybe the demand is so low, that the distributor feels that they need to absolutely make a killing on each unit sold in order for it to be practical. Either way, presumably the distributor knows what they are doing---or not??

@bbyer Another excellent post! One that i totally agree with. The dealers that i have had long time relations all are willing to talk price, but I wouldn’t bother them either with the scenario that you brought up. Maybe a lot of these folks are losing a lot of $$ due to the pricing differential that is evident on cartridges from country to country. I do know of one a’phile who buys and sells cartridges on a frequent basis, none of which retail for anything less than multi thousands of $$ here in the US. He is absolutely doing two things, one is buying off-shore...and two, is not paying anything like what the US dealers are expecting...

I have a great relationship with many dealers, that is precicesly why I don't want to waste their time on what would inevitably be a fools errand.  
Fact:  US MSRP is $8995
Fact: EU MSRP is $6995

This i s a music forum in the end so I'll put it simply and quote Kenny Rogers " You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and when to run".   

I don't want to waste peoples time chasing after what, at best, will be their potential to match a price I can simply press a button and buy online from an authorized dealer in the EU.  I wont owe anyone anything for the amazing deal they get me. 

Cartridges are a tough thing to test and buy, hard to demo and short of an install it's hard for a dealer to show value.   I did have a dealer who happened to deal in my turntable once allow me to bring in my turntable and compare it to his with the cartridge I wanted to buy already mounted.   Total dealer effort?  Make room for me to place my TT on his rack.   

Dealers serve a purpose as I've said previously and I wouldn't have been through a few pairs of speakers without them over the last couple of years.  They have helped enormously to trouble shoot and earned high margins on those sales.   I'm simply saying that selling Lyra's to savvy buyers makes the dealer value prop very difficult.   If I was a dealer, I wouldn't be happy with what AQ are doing to Lyra from a price perspective only.   Being a consumer, I'm hopeful my dealer beats the EU pricing but it's not going to be an easy conversation for me to have as a consumer who does value my relationship with my dealer.  Just not to the point of handing over an extra couple thousand dollars.

Oh, the answer is as little as possible.

I disagree that the dealer has been ruined. Not if you know how to relate to them. If you become a good customer many of them will give you much better pricing than you get on line and you can be assured that you are getting the real deal. The best dealers interact with one another so your dealer can get pretty much anything by swapping equipment with the dealer that has what you want. 
Most music lovers are not audiophiles. They want someone to come in and set up a system for them and teach them how to use it and service it when necessary. You can not get that kind of service on line. 

I find this discussion interesting. But what I would like to know, what is the correct understanding of the gray market in audio. It seems implied that the ‘gray market’ in audio seems to ‘just happen’, or perhaps are counterfeit goods?

As a person who likes mechanical watches as well, I was always told that the vast majority of the gray market for watches were actually received/were sold their merchandise via actual *distributors*, who for a variety of reasons, could not sell a volume of ‘excess’ merchandise to retailers, thus cut their losses by selling them cheap to a gray market seller. Some distributors , as I understand, are forced to buy a certain quantity of product from manufacturers knowing they don’t have the retail market to support their overall inventory, and much of that is earmarked for gray market sellers. They essentially make their profit on the retail market they have relationships with and ‘dump the rest’.

I’ve purchased a gray market watch, but not one of incredibly high value, but one from a very reputable manufacturer, which is actually my daily watch. I took a chance knowing that any problems I may have would probably be minor, and was worth the risk.

I’m not sure I would take the same risk on a multi-thousand dollar piece of audio equipment, (or watch for that matter), as a warranty and factory authorized service of that piece may be necessary. That said, I do understand the risk one might take to obtain an actual trusted and reputable manufactured item at a fraction of the cost of retail. Again, it is a risk, but one a buyer may be willing to take. ‘We’ do it with used gear all the time.

I was just curious if the audio selling/distribution chain in similar to that of watches.

In reference to my post above, I made an error. The item that I priced at $6500 at Yodibashi, after all discounts, is the Technics SP10R, the chassis only, which retails in the US for about $10K. “SL1000R” is code for the complete turntable including tonearm and plinth, which is much more costly..

I would pay big bucks asap dude.

Air Tight PC1

Original Price - $2000
Price 3 months later after TAS Review - $4000
Price then rose to $10000 over a short period of time ( happened to conincide with the release of the dumbed down versions PC7 etc that are still more expensive than the original PC1 ).

My issue is dealers who want full retail margins but are unable to provide product for audition. And then they wonder why people buy offshore.

If dealers/distributors/manufacturers dont ensure global parity in pricing ( allowing for local taxes ) then they dont have an appropiate business model for this world.

And then there are the $6-10k cartridges churned out with manufacturing faults like crooked stylus etc, but thats another story.

 

Facts and theories, Facts can be assumed to be ''true statements''.
But not all statements are truth-functional. That is those can't be
considered to be either true or false (tertium non datur). 
Well an enumeration of facts is not a theory. Theory is an attemt 
to explain the facts. Our problem by such attempt is implicite or
explicite mixing with personal valuatinon . As stated before value
judgment are not truth-functional. They can make ''sense'' but only
in the context of an culture or customs. Consider ''watershed'' 
between digital and analog sound. By CD introduction anybody
was convinced: ''it is done with analoge''. However our forum is
a proof that this is not ''the case''. Aka ''not true''. 
Similar to CD-versus-analog is the case with ''digital'' versus
traditional market. Our on division of labor based society means
that assumed skills for the old- are not sufficient for the ''new
division of labor''. Older people have difficulties to accomodate
to ''digital revolution''. This may explain the fact of dealeship which
 is ''fade away'' and buying on internet. Skills are also ''factual'' 
we can't assume them if they are not present. Not everyone has
chaksters skills to buy on inretnet in order to save his (modest)
means (grin).

Just want to clarify what Chakster says I wrote about purchasing audio items in Japan. I last shopped at Yodibashi Camera which is an enormous department store in the heart of Akihabara, the capital prefecture for purchase of anything in the world related to audio or cameras.  Yodibashi is about the size of the original Macy's in NYC, maybe bigger. You can buy pretty much anything for the home in that store, but 3 whole huge floors are devoted to audio and/or cameras.  The prices in Yodibashi vary all over the place, in comparison to US prices.  In some cases, you can pay 20% to 40% less than US list prices. In other cases, there is no advantage to purchasing there vs here in the US. In no case did I see any product that cost more in Tokyo than it does here in the US, unless it was a product that is actually MADE here or in Europe. 

As to cartridges, there wasn't much if any discount on Audio Technica, for example, at least nothing to make you excited.  (I checked out the AT5000 in May, 2019.) This applies to a few other brands, but I can't name them off hand. But at Yodibashi, you get an automatic discount (8 or 10%, can't remember) just for using your credit card.  You get another 8% off the listed price (which includes VAT), if you have your foreign passport with you and can show it to the sales desk personnel.  I calculated I could buy a Technics SL1000R for about $6500 net, and they had them in stock, no waiting. I mentioned this before in another thread with Chakster; you DO NOT have to pay the Japanese VAT if you can present proof of your foreign citizenship. I think the large differences in the savings between one product and another, by purchasing in Tokyo vs the US, has everything to do with the mark-up by the respective US distributors, where that product is also sold by US dealers.  Some distributors ARE a bit greedy.  Some are superb, like Robin Wyatt. 

You won't see a Lyra or a Koetsu cartridge, at least not any of the high end Koetsus, for open sale at any audio store in Tokyo where I have shopped. I did buy a Koetsu Urushi at a high end boutique, in about 2009. I had to pay for it in full and wait two weeks for it to arrive at the dealer by special order, and this was only achieved because my son is a fluent speaker of the language. None of the salespersons at Yodi or at this other store spoke English, and they have limited willingness to try to figure out what you want.  I had one salesman at Yodi just walk away, in frustration.  The check-out people do speak enough English to help you make the purchase. And you can often corral another customer to help you with language. By the way, that Urushi cost me about one-third of the US price, and it was fully warranted by the Tokyo dealer.  When I got home, I noticed that the cantilever was out of alignment.  I sent it back and got another sample, with no questions asked.  I think the US distributor for Koetsu may be one of those who takes a big cut for himself, maybe because he can, due to the popularity of the product. But my experience is all about being there in Tokyo.  The only thing I ever bought off one of the vendors on eBay was a used Fidelity Research FR64S; the transaction was perfect and the product exactly as described.

@bbyer I agree with you. This is a problem for US dealers, although I suspect they really don’t care too much about it! Also, remember that the EU dealer is still making a nice profit at the EU retail price..although I also suspect they are not making quite the ’Killing’ that the US reps and dealers are looking to score.
Now OTOH, if something goes wrong with the cartridge, which although unlikely ( although not impossible, as I stated above, my Lyra did need to be returned to Japan for work under warranty) the US rep has to stand by the product. With a cartridge, I would have to believe that the cost to cover warranty is still pretty minimal...and certainly not thousands of $$.
Another point that I have not made...in the US- the question becomes how many ’middle men’ are involved in the cartridge business...compared to other markets? Nonetheless, the point/question in my OP still stands.

I am thinking about a cartridge upgrade and recently began investigating Lyra Etna Lambda.  Retail price in the US , as set by their distributor, Audioquest, is $8995 for the standard MC model.  

My search led me to a UK dealer and another in the EU, their retail price is 6950 Euros about $7k vs the $9k US price.   I can either pick one up next time i'm in Europe or have my friend mail one to me so the dealer/distributors remain in compliance.   Seems to me the US mark up is being artificially pumped up by Audioquest . Cartridges aren't amps and are easy to ship and they are not going to cause me problems with a different voltage, etc. 

Now I'm not going to waste any local dealers time auditioning the cartridge and am relying on the tremendous word of mouth if I do purchase from an out of country dealer and I'll have to have my usual pro do the install for me for a few hundred dollars as an added expense but I'll still be thousands ahead and i've yet to ask for a discount from any of these dealers.

I support US dealers and buy a tremendous amount from a few great guys on this board each year and I price isn't my only factor in whom I give my money.   But if I were to ask a dealer to sell me a $9k cart for $7k (full EU retail) I'd be considered a low baller!  What could a US dealer do in order to compete with the couple grand weight that has been placed on its US dealer network in the world of Google we live in?

This is a real problem for the Lyra brand and for those US dealers who are trying to sell to internet savvy consumers willing to pay the price of a stamp.

My Decca Super Gold retip and Decapod cost around $850 with shipping. It was cheaper new back in 1987.

Around 350 bucks. The price of the Ortofon Quintet Red MC I recently stuck on a Linn Akito arm...utterly worth it.

Dear @daveyf : In reality I’m with the official cartridge distributors but like you I’m against the extremely high profits those cartridge distributors have. This is the main issue why the grey market is growing up because manufacturers and/or official dealers leave us with no other good choice that the grey maRKET.

The cartridge business is already a controvertial subject.

When for the audiophiles " money is no object " then they buy to official distributors no matter what because they are wealthy enough to do it several times they want it.

The other alternative is what I did or do it with expensive cartridges: look in the second hand atractive price market, yes it has some trade-offs but I have not really bad experiences through second hand bougth audio devices and especially cartridges, tonearms or TTs.

R.

Grey market dealers sells original cartridges, but the manufacturer identify them by serial numbers, so they remove serial numbers or replace serial number with fake numbers (if it’s possible), especially for an exotic cartridges that made in a small numbers like ZYX. Once the manufacturer can track down the source used by grey market dealer to buy his stuff they will shut down that source, because every cartridge with real serial number is fully trackable, manufacturer know exactly who bought it from him! Isn’t it so simple to understand or not ?

Once a buyer purchased a cartridge from the grey market dealer like juki on ebay they are ONLY protected by ebay and paypal if the cartridge is not working on the first try, once a brand new cartridge opened and used there is NO extended warranty at all (even manufacturer will not give you such warranty because cartridge has a wear factor and no one replace a cartridge for free, such warranty does not exist in this world), you can’t return a cartridge to grey market seller if it was used for some time and then stopped working or if the owner destroyed the cantilever by mistake. Anyone can return only defective units, but the defect must be recognized in a few weeks or so.

But ZYX owners can return their cartridge using trade-in program anytime they want to (only via distributor like SoraSound in Chicago for example) !

This is simply amazing bonus if the reason to buy some great cartridge is not to safe $1000 once, but to stay with great cartridge forever with ability to change/upgrade it forever, to build a good relations with the distributor, this is a clear benefit for those who can pay for expensive cartridges (and for those who know exactly what they are doing and why).

The problem, as i said earlier, is that exotic cartridges designed with exotic parts made for the manufacturer exclusively, just look at the ZYX Boron pipe cantilever (image made by myself) then try to find the same cantilever from any re-tippers, they don’t have such cantilevers at all, they can only offer Boron Ron with glued stylus, as you can see ZYX method is completely different and stylus is not glued, do you see any glue here? This is ZYX Airy 3, same cantilever on ZYX Premium 4D (owned both).

But another problem is that a ZYX has SEALED BODY and someone have to crack it if there is a problem with coil or if the cantilever must be replaced. In the end when it comes to a third party re-tipper it will be completely different cartridge, a Frankenstein that does not perform like the original one any part changed/replaced by some "smart" re-tipper.

ZYX like many other manufacturer does not bother with refurbishing or re-tipping, instead, they are giving to the customer a brand new cartridge with discount if the buyer purchased a cartridge with real serial number via official distributor only. Smart people buy from the manufacturer then trade-in for the next model by sending their used cartridge to the manufacturer. In this scenario they pay only difference between old and new model to get brand new model instead of the old model. Or they can stick to the old model, they will send it back when it’s worn and same model will be 40% cheaper, this is what a manufacturer can offer for their distributors only. End of the story.

Buying an exotic cartridge for $3-8000 to end up with SoundSmith retip is BS. Exotic cartridges are unique in everything, almost every part is unique and this is why some of them are so expensive.

Only people who does not understand anything about cartridge design can argue with it.

P.S.

Why i am talking about ZYX so often is because of my personal experience, it was the most expensive cartridges in my life, this is what i call exotic cartridges. I can not talk about different brands, but i think the situation with exotic cartridges is the same for most of the brands today.

The manufacturers are not idiots, they are giving very special options only to their distributors to support the system they like if they wish to sell worldwide only via distributors.


And they are always against the grey market dealers. Do you understand why ?

@rauliruegas I tend to agree with you --customers should buy where the price is right! However, this is exactly what the US distributor does NOT want you to do. By having the ability to actually shop the merchandise and therefore shop the price, takes away from his ability to control his margin...and he wants to insure that he has a HUGE margin!
This fellow is not the only one with this business plan; currently, it is quite prevalent with a lot of distributors of high end gear in the US.

Dear @analogluvr  :  As you I bougth VDh cartridges from Netherlands with at least 50% off  retail price.

In the past I bought from  2juki and never had any problem because he gives you warranty and I know by first hand experiences where he honor his words.Ibougth too from Japan distributors for export market with full warranties and all those grey market distributors including the one from China sale original cartridges.

We as customers have to go where the price is rigth for each one of us for each one budget. As simple as that.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

chakster,

So what? Someone asked and i mentioned the biggest grey market dealer who sell some cartridges with fake serial numbers, he replaced them on ZYX cartridges, these cartridges are very expensive and exotic.

So you automatically assume it is Chinese?

By the way, the OP never mentioned "biggest grey market dealer". These are your words.

Ralph, I generally agree with your post. However, in this instance we are talking about a cartridge...and not any other type of gear. The rep for this particular cartridge adds $8k to the retail price in Japan to arrange for the shipping and future servicing (if any...and with cartridges how often does this occur...although I personally did have to have warranty work done on my Lyra.. but I still think that is pretty unusual).
The more interesting thing is that in this case, the rep came out with threats against all of his off-shore competitors...because he was sure that they were under selling him. ( which I am 100% sure is correct...and that’s because they don’t  have the same business plan as this guy...which IMO...is simply to fleece the consumer to the absolute max).

A manufacturer that bypasses his distributors in a given country will not have any distributors in that country for long! So it is in their interest if they are in the game for the long run to make sure their product isn’t being gray marketed by one of their other dealers or distributors that has decided to not play by the rules.


So for that simple reason a distributor can often exert pressure on a manufacturer if that distributor does good numbers. Once a relationship like that is ruined, it can be very hard for the manufacturer to get re-established as that sort of thing has a way of spreading. As an example, there is a Canadian speaker manufacturer that started bypassing his dealers here in the US. Dealers here in the US don’t want to do business with him anymore, and other manufacturers like us tend to not recommend his product as its so much harder to deal with.


If you want domestic support for a foreign product, good luck trying to take that to the distributor, even if you bought it second-hand. You got it on the cheap- that is the flip side- you might have to pay more on the other end.

Just a reminder if anyone is considering a trip to Japan, the “consumption” (sales) tax rose on 1 October 2019 to 10% nationwide.  That applies to damned near all domestic purchases.

@bukanova

Grey market dealer buys directly from manufacturer, this is part of game.

No, they don’t buy from the manufacturers as far as i know, do you know exactly what you mean, can you recall any brand?

I discussed it with the distributor of ZYX in USA for example, nobody know the source of carts grey market dealers offering, but serial numbers are fake on grey market items from juki and this is why it’s impossible to track down the source. Fake serial on the cartridge body and blank field in the manuals where must be a serial number. I know exactly what i’m talking about.

I’m pretty sure they can only buy privately from another dishonest distributors, not for the manufacturer, because the Japanese manufacturer never deal with grey market sellers in China.

A lot of fake coming from China, just because other things manufactured in China, but exotic high-end cartridges manufactured in Japan and it’s another culture, they can’t make 100 more cartridges illegally for grey market sales as Chinese can do with clothes and some cheap stuff.

@mmai

I know 2juki, but the OP never mentioned such seller in his posts.

So what? Someone asked and i mentioned the biggest grey market dealer who sell some cartridges with fake serial numbers, he replaced them on ZYX cartridges, these cartridges are very expensive and exotic. His price is cheaper, but a distributors will give the buyer much better service, great prices and will treat customers like best friends. SoraSound in USA, Chicago.

I can’t speak for all distributors, but with my personal experience with grey market dealers and official distributors i choose official distributors. As some of you guys here i was looking for a cartridges and noticed big price difference between official retail and ebay, it was long time ago and i did not understand why it was cheaper. Believe me, the official distributor can offer much more than a grey market dealer, i bought my next officially and i can tell you for sure that grey market seller does not have an access to the manufacturer (to the cartridge designer in Japan), but the distributor know him personally and can quickly solve any issues with the cartridge (this is a perfect service for the buyers).

However, when it comes to very expensive cartridges i'm fine to buy used cartridges from audiophiles who bought them from official distributors only (if it’s not a vintage cartridge), but definitely not from the grey market cheaters. 

WHOA!
You guys are gonna have a stroke. Glad I'm not in that atmosphere and am happy.

@ chakster

2juki is the biggest grey market dealer on ebay, he’s from Hong Kong.You don’t know this ?

I know 2juki, but the OP never mentioned such seller in his posts.

The real question is why this grey market do exist? It’s not Robin Hood deal for manufacturer and grey market dealer and usually both of them do know what they do and why. Grey market dealer buys directly from manufacturer, this is part of game.

Although no question asked makes some opportunities for both. For good and for bad :)

Not completely relevant to exotic cartridges but......

I dealt direct with Jico for new stylus even though there are plenty of USA distributor for Jico stylus.

They had no problem dealing with me direct, taking PayPal and communication by email was in perfectly good English from them.

Not exotic carts but the principle is there.

@vortrex  I can tell you are the exact customer that the agent should keep away from! You already know it all......:0(

@daveyf you sound like the perfect customer for a real estate agent.  There is a reason they are still in business in 2020.

@chakster As someone else has pointed out, the cartridge in question is $8k more than the price in Japan...which IF you read my OP...a little slower, you would see is what I stated....but no, you just have to jump to conclusions. Your understanding of my posts is faulty...and you continue to want to try and debate my meanings and put words into my mouth, I’m done with you.

@vortrex I really dislike it when people come in public forums and insult entire professions with typically no knowledge of what the profession entails or what value they bring to the consumer! Your statement about real estate agents and car dealers shows me your ignorance. As an example, I recently sold a property and my agent was able to not only make this complex transaction easy for me, but also allowed me to realize tens of thousands of dollars over my expectations. To say that her experience was invaluable would be an understatement.

You grossly understated the dealer’s expenses. There’s usually some financial commitment to be a dealer for products that can include a payment, commitments to buy and carry a certain amount of inventory, training, travel, not to mention the costs of operating a business.

Grey market items often won’t be supported for warranty service. If you buy an "international" version and are in the US or didn’t purchase it from an authorized dealer, you may be S.O.L. if something happens.

There’s also the issue of education, demonstrations, etc. If you order it from Japan, chances are you’re going on other people’s impressions and making a blind purchase without having an opportunity to hear what it sounds like.

So, those are things to take into consideration.

While I wouldn’t consider it "exotic", when I purchased my Kiseki Blue NS, I chose to purchase it from a seller here on Audigon, saving approximately 35%. I felt it was worth whatever risk there was and had no issues with the purchase or performance.

Just be aware of the potential risks and consider the upside of working with a dealer.

@chakster no I do not own an Etsuro Gold.  Just pointing out what a scam dealers are, especially in the USA.

Like I said, I was merely pointing out that it is easy to buy direct from Japan IF the manufacturer allows it.  There are no language or payment issues as you pointed out.  My comments had nothing to do with whether they had USA distribution or not.

I don't believe the cartridges in Japan are more expensive.  You can see the retail pricing online if you search Japanese sites.

This is about the Etsuro Gold cartridge which is $21k USD retail through the USA dealer. It’s about $8500 USD less (retail pricing) through a legit Europe or Japan dealer for someone living in the US.

@vortrex

All Etsuro models manufactured by Excel Sound Inc.

This is your Etsuro Gold with $21k retail price in USA ?

A bit off-topic, but I will tell you more:

The current $8000 Excel Sound’s Etsuro Urushi MC looks very similar compared to the stylish and very rare Argent MC110 made in the 80’s in Japan for US market. They are both have unique sapphire base, similar specs and they came from the same manufacturer after all, just in different time. I have this Argent MC110 in my collection, one of the reason i prefer NOS vintage cartridges is the price, top of the line Argent DIAMOND (with Diamond cantilever) is no more than $3000 today, while the Etsuro Urushi is $8k and i am shocked that Etsuro Gold is $21k in USA.

The retail of Argent MC110 (the predecessor of Etsuro) from the same manufacturer in the mid 80’s was $385 in USA and Argent Diamond was $1200 in USA. Here is the document with prices and specs.

Hard to believe they can sell nearly the same cartridges, designed in the 80’s, but in better finishing for $21k in 2020.

Prices goes crazy nowadays in my opinion, not sure the quality goes up with the price, sorry.

After Mr.Fremer visited Excel Sound in they garage i was a bit disappointed, here is the video.

no secret, it’s Audio Tekne. I’m just making the point that it’s possible to buy direct from the Japanese without logistical issues. You will likely get far better service than any other dealer, which has been my experience. No PayPal, money is wired at a fixed low cost. English is not an issue. How do you think USA distributors are dealing with Japanese manufacturers? You think they can read and write Japanese?

Only if they do not have a distributor in USA, because if they have a distributor and still selling direct from Japan to USA then it’s dishonest to their own distributor. This is an exception, i can recall maybe 10 well known Japanese cartridge manufacturer that no one can buy from the manufacturer or even from the Japanese shops because they do not ship abroad. Someone at the company must speak English, but only to communicate with their distributor.

Also i remember @lewn comments after he returned from Japan, that retail price in Japanese shops for new High-End cartridges is the same or even higher than in USA. There is a tax in the Japanese shops on top of the retail price. 

@chakster no secret, it’s Audio Tekne. I’m just making the point that it’s possible to buy direct from the Japanese without logistical issues. You will likely get far better service than any other dealer, which has been my experience.  No PayPal, money is wired at a fixed low cost. English is not an issue. How do you think USA distributors are dealing with Japanese manufacturers?  You think they can read and write Japanese?