How much difference will a phono stage upgrade make?

Here is a factory tour:  Manley Labs' Chino, California headquarters

@12hz, 

I have the Primaluna and a Manley Chinook.  I've used the Chinook with it, a homemade 300B amp, Creek Evolution 100, NAD M22, and a Schitt Freya.  

The Chinook makes a huge difference.  I still think of it (over speakers, tubes, and amps) as my best piece of kit regardless of price.  I was reluctant to buy an expensive (expensive to me) phono pre but did so at the firm recommendations of several folks who I like and trust on the 'Gon.  They were right. 

I do wish the countless loading options were available via dials on the front of the unit as opposed to dip switches on the rear, but, hey, I'm not moving them often after set up anyway.  

I can wholeheartedly recommend it. Now, that said, the Herron is likely a great phono pre worth looking at too.  I'm not familiar with it other than it's top notch reputation. 

The Chinook has a tubey but accurate sound.  It sounds big, luscious, warm and detailed all at once.  Massive soundstage and palpable realness.  

millercarbon:

The OP has his mind set on all tubes. Others have their mind set on features. Or whatever.

For those with their mind set on music, and especially for those musically minded listeners willing to listen and decide for themselves

I'm actually very much interested in the music above all else. (Aren't we all?) I'm not a gearhead and I have no means of doing comparisons between high-end components, as I live in a small city with no access to the equipment discussed here. I drove 1000 miles to audition my amplifier and speakers and I'm glad I did, but it's not always possible. Hence, I rely on these forums for information, with the understanding that others' opinions may not always mesh with my listening preferences. I'm not stubbornly set on tubes for arbitrary reasons, it's just that my amp is a tube amp and I really love it. (For how it translates the music!) By logical extension I figured a tube phono stage would share the attributes that I like in my amp. Again, I wasn't looking for specific recommendations, I was really just looking for a nudge from this community, some assurance that a big investment in a new phono stage wouldn't simply produce nominal results by comparison to my current, less expensive phono stage. I don't want to be underwhelmed after spending $2500. 

I'm sure the Herron phono stage is great. It's also $1000 more than my already stretched budget will allow. (And as others on this thread have already suggested, even the Manley may be more than I need for my current set-up.)

Anyway, thanks for your input. I hope that asking the question I asked didn't somehow imply that I care more about an allegiance to tubes than to the music. That's not at all the case. I'm trying to build a good system that I can eventually just forget about and enjoy my albums.

Every move in the phono stage link has made a big difference, positive and/negative. 
I’m currently using a Musical Surroundings Phonomena ii which I like a lot and is VERY flexible for just about any cart you throw at it.  There’s a ii+ out now.  

bpoletti:

Save your money and get a Herron Audio VTPH-2a. No need to upgrade when you have the best. The Herron is the last stop on the upgrade path.

Back when I was researching phono stages I came across a lot of comments just like this. Also more than a few deriding or mocking for being so up front about it. Now that I have one though I have to say, its basically true.

In fact only reason I can think of to qualify it with "basically" is there are people like the OP who have preferences for things other than pure sonic upgrades. The OP has his mind set on all tubes. Others have their mind set on features. Or whatever.

For those with their mind set on music, and especially for those musically minded listeners willing to listen and decide for themselves (hardly any reviews, Herron doesn't hand them out, you have to BUY one!) there may well be no better choice.

The Chinook will be a nice upgrade over the Tube Box and you should be very happy with it.

Thanks everyone for your useful comments. Ultimately I wasn’t looking for suggestions as to which phono stage to upgrade to, as I’ve done research ad nauseam and landed on the Manley Chinook Special Edition MK II. The Gold Note seems to have a lot of loyal fans, but I’m pretty firmly committed to the idea of tubes along my entire signal path. (Also, with the external power supply, the Gold Note ends up being substantially more expensive than the Manley.) That being said, the overwhelming enthusiasm expressed by everyone about the upgrades you all have made has me thinking that this would be a good move and money well-spent. Again, thanks for your comments. 

As others have already suggested another +1 for the Gold Note PH10

+ for the Chinook. Tube upgrade makes it really good. 

I think a huge upgrade can be made if you will replace a tube phono stage with some decent new generation SS phono stage. Look for Gold Note PH-10 with external PSU if you want to try the most versatile SS phono stage with two inputs for whatever type of cartridges. The MC is fully adjustable, this is really a new concept, you will not find anything like that from any other manufacturers, and the price is so nice! Gold Note is user friendly like no other phono stage, build quality is superb, design is amazing. Sound quality is very impressive. Simply a must have ! 

I have a NAD M12 pre/dac, a Technics SL-1200G TT with an Ortofon Quintet Black MC cartridge, and Tannoy Definition 8 dcti speakers.  The sound was quite good using the M12's phono input.  I purchased a Parasound JC3 Jr and the sound is sooo much better.

If you like the sound of the Pro-ject can I suggest the Pro-ject Phono Box RS with the battery PSU. I use it with a Quintet Black S giving excellent results. Don't hear it with the standard PSU you will be disappointed.

Anyone compared directly Allnic 1201 or 1202 with the Manley and Sutherland phonos ? Yeah, comparing tube stages with solid state may create additional difficulties, can be just very different.
I am asking because I have Acoustech designed by Sutherland and thinking ahead. Almost certainly will go after tube phono, almost..

I had a project tube box, I think it was the tube box S. It was okay, but there was a noticeable improvement when I replaced that with a jolida jd9. The musical surroundings Nova phonomena was also an improvement over the tube box. My most dramatic improvement was upgrading from the jd9 to a Manley Chinook. After reading this thread tonight I swapped out the Chinook for my parks puffin just for kicks. The parks puffin compares very nicely to the Chinook and the puffin is only $400.

Before you buy another preamp would you consider rolling tubes? That's another avenue to explore. 

Oh yeah, the Herron gets pretty good marks from everyone who owns one! Had mine since late last year. Easily the best component I've ever had. Or ever will, probably. Turns out there's a reason why they hardly ever come up used, and go in a flash when they do. My search turned up several people who had heard the various Herron versions go head to head with all the much more expensive supposedly best stages- even the earlier 2, even the original Herron, total match for anything out there. I don't want to diss the others, at this level there are no bad choices. But I did come across several people who said the Herron was better than ... fill in the blank.... and then added, and that wasn't even the current one! So you could get a used one (if you can find one, seriously, not easy- Itried!) and be very, very happy. 

But, why buy used? Why not just give Keith a call? I'm sure he'll be happy to build you one. He builds them to last, with fanatical obsession to detail.

How much difference can it make? Might want to check out my review. My wife heard it through a closed door! Cannot recommend enough. 

In the fairly near future, PS Audio will introduce the Stellar Phono stage, targeted for the low $2000s.  It sounds like it might be a real winner, and all PS Audio is easy to audition in home for a month.  Just a thought.

I too used a Primaluna Integrated with a Tube Box DS.  I made a smaller jump with HUGE results, upgrading to a Musical Fidelity MX-VYNL.  

The RCM is not tube based but as is the case with most quality components these days, the sonic differences between tubes vs. solid state is less than in the past. One thing I considered when debating tubes vs. non-tubed phono stages was the necessity for very low noise tubes in phono stages (and the expense of procuring/replacing them.) My experiences with tubes aging and getting noisier with the passage of time led me to prefer using tubes in preamps and amplifiers instead of phono stages. Perhaps those with more experience than I can weigh in on whether they have more noise issues with tubes in their phono stages vs. other components that amplify voltages to a lesser degree.

I started off with the Pro-Ject Tube box as well.  It was pretty decent, especially considering its cost.  Moved on to the iFi iPhono 2, and then a Parasound JC3 JR.

Each was a step up in SQ, but just a little bit each time.

Then I found the Gold Note PH-10.  I bought one last year and it was a game changer.  Stupidly, I sold it, thinking I could do better staying around the same price range. Boy how wrong I was.. A few other phono preamps in between, and lots of money not-so-well-spent..

.....I finally bought another PH-10 , but this time with the PSU, and it's even better than I remembered.  Very flexible, and can accommodate just about any cartridge imaginable. 

Unless your set on a tube phono pre, I would take a hard look!

YMMV
Rob

Rega Aria is also Excellent .

I owned a Chinook (now a Steelhead) and it was a very good upgrade. I also had an Aesthetix Rhea which I liked except for the low level tube rush. The Chinook is dead quiet if that's important to you and I would say is about 85% of the Steelhead sonically. Haven’t heard the Herron, though I read it gets very good marks from every owner that has one. I don’t think you’d be disappointed with any of these.

A Project DS-2 with Telefunken smooth plate tubes or some other reallygood 12AX7's is a killer .

I think the take home lesson is that if you select the "right" phono stage at the higher price point, you will be very pleased, and the expense will seem worthwhile.  If you make a "bad" choice, then even if you've spent big bucks, you won't necessarily be so happy.  I put the word in quotation marks, because "bad" is to a large degree subjective (although there are some expensive pieces of audio gear that are per se bad).  So, do as much homework as you can before taking the leap.  In my opinion, the Chinook would be a good choice, but that's only my opinion.  People also seem to love the Herron phono stages.  But both of those may be better than your ancillary equipment merits, at this point in time.  Think of a used Chinook or older model Herron, maybe.  And make sure anything you choose is well suited to your cartridge in terms of gain and loading.

Thanks, photon46. I haven't heard of that one--I'll look into it. I quite like the sound of tubes, so I'm trying to keep things aligned with that preference. Is the RCM Sensor Prelude a tube phono stage? (Easy enough to find out, I suppose.)

I've made several phono stage upgrades in the past. The last upgrade was the most difficult to get right. I tried several well reviewed phono stages listing above $2000 and was disappointed in the sound quality for the money spent compared to my previous ~$600 phono stage. Then I acquired an RCM Sensor Prelude and that one knocked it out of the park, exactly the sort of sound quality I wanted. It was a very serious upgrade in fidelity. Vinyl reproduction has more links in the component chain, so it's more likely to take experimentation to get what one seeks in my experience.