How do you know when a stereo sounds good?

I suppose this thread might be viewed as part of Synergistic’s research.   

@danager what you call an adult conversation is laughable. This entire thread is a joke. The premise was to evoke a conversation leading to testimonials and shilling Teds over priced gear.

There has been no conversation here and it is the same old boring BS.

I will make a contribution for you, buy some decent  cables, some magic elixir for your connectors and you will be in audio heaven.

Yawn…..

@mapman +1 

If you have to ask that question then you had best give up audio altogether. 

It's basically a matter of how close an electronic reproduction come to "live performance" Perhaps you've never been to a live concert ?

when you spent your kids' College funds on cables: that's when you know.

The last few posts prove my point, and if that makes me an "angry bird, I can live with that.

@roxy54  I can't.  I'm angry that my religious fervour and fanaticism has been exposed.  I am unworthy to be in the presence of agnostics.

Why are you agreeing with him cleeds when he is one of those who is speaking of measurements?  

@danager what you call an adult conversation is laughable. This entire thread is a joke. The premise was to evoke a conversation leading to testimonials and shilling Teds over priced gear.

There has been no conversation here and it is the same old boring BS.

I will make a contribution for you, buy some decent  cables, some magic elixir for your connectors and you will be in audio heaven.

Yawn…."

Did you stamp your foot when you wrote that?  

Three pages of posts would probably disagree with there is no conversation here and your childish disregard for everyone who did participate with your one word condescending smirk is probably wondering like I am "Who the heck cares whether your bored or not and why if that's how you feel would you think its at all beneficial to the post to add it?"

I don't see a product mentioned in the OPs post.  If I was in a business of providing products to a specialized demographic I'd also want to better understand my clientele.

If cables and elixirs bring you pleasure and that's how gauge your enjoyment great.  That at least moves the conversation instead of detracting from it.

 

 

@roxy54 you are in good company. Strange world where measure AND listen are on the fringe middle while the two warring flocks go at each other with blind religious fervor….

The middle is never a fringe.  Vice versa.

It seems the core of arguments here and on all other audio groups revolve around what it is that constitutes good sound with people on one side who all but claim subjective observations of sound quality are meaningless. That people who believe stereos that sound good to them, do in fact sound good, are somehow delusional. Question, where are these staunch objectivists defending their position that what subjectively sounds good is not necessarily the most important criteria where sound quality is concerned?

Good question. Really good question. So far as I can see all the answers boil down to, "I know it when I hear it." A majority go even beyond that, "I know it when I feel it." They talk about being drawn in, losing track of time, etc. One even went so far as to say, "When I can listen to Adele." Talk about a high bar!

But, unless I missed it, not a single one said, "When it measures good."

Amazingly, no one said, "When the double-blind test confirms it sounds good."

Astoundingly, no one said, "Well on account of expectation bias I am never really sure of anything."

So kudos compliments and atto-boys on a clever discussion topic. Still, don’t judge, as Stilgar might say, hastily. The question is, "How do you know". So it could be you got the answers you did because this is those of us who know. Could it be people insist on measurements because they don’t know what sounds good?

Measurements are another tool that smart people know how to apply for example to help decide what products to choose to listen to so they can then make their subjective decisions about what sounds good more effectively.

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

How do you decide what products to listen to? A crystal ball? What looks good? What some guy on the internet or a reviewer says you should? Only the ones at the local dealer if there even is one near you? Only the ones in a friend’s house, if available?

Maybe. But if you are building a system with components, putting those into a room, and you want those components to perform well together and thereby have a better chance of sounding good or maybe even outstanding once you get that far best to learn to read and interpret measurements. Not that you might not stumble onto something good otherwise, but....facts matter. Especially technical ones. You can choose to ignore them but does not change the facts.

 

 

mapman

19,678 posts

11-28-2021 11:22am

I suppose this thread might be viewed as part of Synergistic’s research.

How do you decide what products to listen to? A crystal ball?

Asking audiophiles what constitutes good sound is somehow intrinsic to Synergistic Research? LOL

Typically we look at measurements to determine what to listen to first, compatibility with our systems. Personally I tend to like amplifiers that double power as impedance halves, with high dampening factors. That said, it tells me nothing about what will sound best in my stereo, for that I listen, subjectively. Pretty much like other audiophiles who also own good sounding stereos.

Yours in music,

Lead Designer/CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

What is so funny about that?  Lol.

Audio Research has it right, measure and let Warren listen as final Quality Assurance…..of course, they are inventing, designing, building and supporting real stuff…

@winnardt

You said: "It’s like asking the question, "Am I in pain?" That’s not a question I can make sense of without some kind of science fiction scenario." Can you elaborate on that paragraph? I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

The OP asked for someone beside himself how he could know if he was enjoying music. I said, that’s like asking someone else "Am I in pain." That sentence does not make sense to you. It doesn’t make sense to me, either. That’s why the equivalent sentence, "Am I enjoying my stereo?" is equally senseless. It’s an ill-formed question and cannot be answered. See, SEP, e.g. to read more.

Why are so many getting all bent out of shape?

Its simple, I know it sounds great because it sounds great to me. My system has an audience of one, me. Could it sound better? Absolutely. Things can always be made better. Sometimes this can be a dramatic difference, like the recent modifications I did to my heavy plinth diy Lenco. Damped the top plate, fine tuned the isolation base I built and braced/coupled the main bearing. Huge improvement in the sonic presentation. So I know it can be better, but it’s still great as it is. 

Hello, ted_denney!  Churches with choirs are the easiest and cheapest places to hear live music. Find a church in your area that is offering a free, live music, Christmas program. Go to it, sit up front, and listen carefully. Does you system sound like that? If so, be happy. If not, where is it falling short? Now, you have a place to focus for making improvements. Enjoy the music.

@danager LOL stomp your foot.

You are funny.

Later dude.

Yawn................

@jerryg123 

dude you attacking me is getting old

I am not anti cabler

my comment was sarcasm pointing out holes in the OP but sarcasm  is obviously a foreign concept for you. 

I love cable

 

@grislybutter sure okay good deal. See you around I guess.

 

"Angels on pins, I’m counting angels on pins...."
(Musical interlude: Pick your own tempos and chords, and sing...
{ones’ that you can, or can’t, hit} ).

All audio can sound ’good’, until it hits the listeners’ ears.
Then the decision is up to the listener: ’Dis’ good, or ’dis’ suxs.
Listener is the final instrument in the system.
Next is objective, final is obsession...

I’m somewhere betwixt the last 2....
Done for fun vs. fanaticism pretty much nails it...and me. ;) *G*

“I am not anti cabler.” 
 

Has virtue signaling jumped the shark?

hilde45

My confusion comes from your interpretation of what the OP wrote. He didn't ask: "How does someone else determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That's how you interpreted his question but I don't think that's what he asked (it's possible I'm still confused). He asked: "How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That question is directed at the person listening to the music. I think the simple answer is if it brings pleasure, one is likely enjoying listening to music. Just like if you have pain, you know it yourself (I'm living proof of this one).

The other part of your reply that I did not understand was the science fiction scenario. I didn't get what that meant either.

Has virtue signaling jumped the shark?

@wturkey

This is quite possibly a subject that could be great for a new thread, should there be an opportunity.

My initial thoughts are that it has always been in existence of course, but only in recent times has it become so over-used in many areas of our day-to-day life its use and mis-use is becoming thoroughly transparent (and maybe even passe, as you suggest.  I don't know).

 

winnardt

111 posts

11-29-2021 10:11am

hilde45

My confusion comes from your interpretation of what the OP wrote. He didn't ask: "How does someone else determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That's how you interpreted his question but I don't think that's what he asked (it's possible I'm still confused). He asked: "How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That question is directed at the person listening to the music. I think the simple answer is if it brings pleasure, one is likely enjoying listening to music. 

+1

I am a bit short on time, so I can say this, briefly and hope it makes sense.

OP: How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo? 

I determine I enjoy listening to music in the same way I determine I'm in pain: I just feel and know it.

The puzzle to me was why someone with access to their own mind would ask this question. That's why my initial post proposed another way to ask the question. And those who have answered it clearly took it as posed in that other way, or they'd have had nothing to say. Gotta leave it there.

"The puzzle to me was why someone with access to their own mind would ask this question."

Thank You hilde45!!! That has been my point all along! But Ted Denney thinks that I'm obtuse.

Most people fell in the pit of measurements as proof of the system S.Q. ( this is not even false for sure, measurements are NECESSARY tools in engineering)

Or most others retreated in their subjective trench: if i like  it, it must be  good... ( this is not even false either) This is no argument but a watchword for common place statement....

 

My main point :

Objectivist and subjectivist alike IDOLIZE the gear...

Where is acoustic power in this insane logic?

 

I never know what my gear sound potential could be BEFORE acoustic treatment and control...

@wturkey 

the amount of hatred and absurdity is stunning here

To me it sounds good when the music can have a deep effect on me. When it sounds exceptional, then you will have shivers when you hear the song next time coming up even on TV or on your phone - even a low quality playback will be enough to recall the experience and bring you back to when you heard the song "for the first time for real".

Of course, this cannot be true for every music we play, as let's be frank - most live music is quite mediocre. Recordings take a notch (or several notches) down from there.

Yet, when you have a life changing live performance or song that talks to your soul, even taking that notch down is still a much more fulfilling experience than a whole bunch of mediocre live shows. That's how I know when a stereo system sounds good. Just forget about mesurberating. You will instantly know when the system sounds good. People will look as if they got an adrenaline shot or are just back from a trip to a different universe. When you need to reason the qualities, then there's always room to improve.

In short, when you get a Life Changing Experience, then it sounds good.

The sound waves travel my small room at a speed of sound, 343 meters per second or 1125 feet per second......

My room is 13 feet square... More than 80 crossing through my room each second...

 

 

This means my room atmosphere is like a tense violin cord....So sensible to any small change that is is easy to hear any new elements introduced in a room we already know...

My brain#ears decipher sound waves differently each one of them and make decision in SOMETIMES ONE MILLISECOND... ( Hass effect)

Then anything in the room, any acoustic material content, his geometry and the topology of the room, will deteriorate sound or improve its recognition in a way far greater than upgrading a good amplifier for a so called better one...

 

It is acoustic who dictate sound quality AT THE END...Not measurements of electronical piece of gear nor our own satisfaction after an upgrade...

Not the branded name of speakers or amplifiers...

Buy good gear FIRST and forget them after that , and read about acoustic....

And no acoustic tweaks will replace acoustic control...On the opposite we may replicate any tweak effect in a room by using acoustic treatment and acoustic Helmholtz mechanical control....

For example using angles in my speakers position and an acoustic screen i mimic an headphone effect ( the sound floating not in my head but around my head with some recording)...

But it is more easy to buy ready made costlier product than making our own acoustic listening experiment for sure...I dont negate the usefulness and practicality of products at all.. Few people use an audio dedicated room like i did...

I just want to make my point known....Acoustic reign supreme in audio...

Objectivism or subjectivism about the gear is a deceptive marketing effect RESULTING from years of customers publicity conditioning...

 

 

 

In short, when you get a Life Changing Experience, then it sounds good.

This is called a circular reasoning... This is a publicity motto... Sorry....

This is even used for decades to sell new upgrading product...

i always liked myself all my pieces of gear, one after the other all my life....But was never satisfied really... Guess why?

 

The only way to know if your system sound at his potential working peak, nevermind the gear, is by acoustic control...

After that all your albums sound interesting, all of them reveal the acoustical choices made at the recording time...

My worst album acoustically are now revealing and interesting...

If you look ONLY for very good audiophile recording it is a sign that your system dont worked at his potential working peak YET...WHY?

When your audio system is under control, all albums are suddenly musical in their own way, with specific acoustical choices and trade-off made by the recording engineer and even the bad one are interesting to know...

 

Music through sound and sound through music....Not one without the other....

 

“the amount of hatred and absurdity is stunning here.”

 

Agreed. There is a stunning amount of absurd hatred afoot.

Hatred is a strong word that shouldn't be misused. I would say strong disagreement.

When you take the time to learn how audio works, and then instead of wasting your money on things like magic fuses, over priced cable, AC noise isolators that do nothing, Schuman toys, teensy acoustic resonators, and all manor of stuff that does little or nothing, and spend time and money on the stuff that matters oh, like acoustic panels, bass control including sub arrangements, achieving an in-room response that is effective, learning to balance direct/reflective sound, and speakers that don't distort ... then you may have a system that sounds good.

However, you know you really have reached the pinnacle when the owner of an audiophile tweak company goes out of his way to insult you on audio forums.

Thanks great post!

 

But there is 2 part in acoustic management for a small dedicated room...

1) Balancing diffusion/reflection/ and absorption is conventional passive materials treatment..

2) active mechanical control with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers are the missing part of your acoustic description...

And you mix together many things that perhaps dont work with some which work... I own a grid of cheap Schuman generators i myself modified and it work...But the audible effect, at the same time subtle and powerful, could be hidden by a not so much refine room or a problematic system, for example with speakers not isolated mechanically from vibrations or in a house with a too high electrical noise floor ....

In the race to reach a good S.Q. people rush to EASY solutions, and some begin to try Shuman generators but it is not this that we must begin with  in the first place....It is way better to eliminate vibrations from the speakers for example....or like you justly said manage material acoustic  passive treatment...

 

The problem is people are ready to pay for costlier "tweaks" BEFORE learning the basic acoustic...

My best to you....

 

When you take the time to learn how audio works, and then instead of wasting your money on things like magic fuses, over priced cable, AC noise isolators that do nothing, Schuman toys, teensy acoustic resonators, and all manor of stuff that does little or nothing, and spend time and money on the stuff that matters oh, like acoustic panels, bass control including sub arrangements, achieving an in-room response that is effective, learning to balance direct/reflective sound, and speakers that don’t distort ... then you may have a system that sounds good.

However, you know you really have reached the pinnacle when the owner of an audiophile tweak company goes out of his way to insult you on audio forums.

There is no right or wrong in this hobby. There are only personal subjective preferences to what makes music sound good to each individual. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and accept. 

There is no right or wrong in this hobby. There are only personal subjective preferences to what makes music sound good to each individual. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and accept. 

Because while there are rights and wrongs, or at least valid and false claims. That is what is hard for many to accept. It's fun to believe in magic, but magic is illusion. It is not real.

There is not right or wrong in people attitudes...They are free and had the right to their own experience and justification...

But in audio there is right or wrong about   to manage the way to reach a good S.Q.

For example basic acoustic installation active and passive is way more important than the choice between 2 good pieces of gear for an upgrade....

How do you know your gear qualitative peak without putting them in an optimal environment?

 

Who want to upgrade "blindly" or partially deaf because he does not know what his speakers/amplifier/dac are able to do in an ideal room, who want upgrading based on publicity and without any control on mechanical, electrical and acoustical working dimensions?

 

hilde45

I think the purposes of the OP’s questions were to see if anybody had an explanation different from "I just feel it and know it." I agree with you that the vast majority of the answers will likely be that one, but that doesn’t mean someone might have a different way of saying it or a different perspective. To you, there’s only one answer and the question was meaningless, but you can’t know ahead of time what the other answers will be. Maybe someone will surprise you with an answer you hadn’t yet considered.

And you still didn't explain the science fiction part of your reply.

First, someone who sell pieces of gear will say: your feeling about yourt system is not enough... You need this piece of gear to increase your experience...The measuruments AND your listening experience would say so...

 

Second, it is not false to speak like that, but ANY "TWEAKS" must be experimented in a good acoustic settings first... WHY ?

Because many costly tweaks even good one COULD be useless or way less useful in a good acoustic settings...

I sell creativity not products...

Acoustic is the black matter in audio and the elephant in the room....NO TWEAKS in my system could replace my acoustic treatment and controls anyway... Even those i tried and which  worked well... NONE....

Your room acoustic treatments are tweaks. You are modifying the spatial volume of your room or affecting how the sound waves reflect or diffract. Whether you modify signal before the speaker or modify the sound waves after the speaker doesn’t matter. You are still tweaking the sound to suit your own personal belief of the ideal sound. Your ideal of what is good is not necessarily anyone else’s ideal. 
 

If you have to tell people they are believing in magic because you can’t hear what we do, then you need more art in your life. 

Your room acoustic treatments are tweaks.

 

 

For sure there exist 2 methods to fine tune the room acoustically: BY EARS or with a MIC and an electronical equalizer...

 

But ask any acoustician about electronical equalizer... They dont use it generally and if they do it is only a secondary tools...

I use my ears with my timbre recognition BIAS for sure...

But the fact that 2 people EARS and hearing bias are different CANNOT made acoustical principle in Helmholtz method VOID and useless...

 

Acoustic principles are not "tweaks" they are science.... The way you use them is according to your SPECIFIC EARS for sure...

I use Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid.... Nothing is a "tweak" here for 2 reason: it cost NOTHING to experiment with that, i used cheap bottles and plumbers tubes...

And "tweaks" is about a particular READY MADE SOLD device, Helmholtz method in acoustic is not a "tweak"...

Tweak are secondary addition to an audio system in the audiophile lingo...

Acoustic is not a secondary addition to an audio system, it is ESSENTIAL and a dedicated room is the more important luxury in audio...

Good observation! thanks ...

Great hall acoustic differ completely of small room acoustic...

 

Reflections and reverberation time for example are not used the same way...

We can use POSITIVELY in a small room the reverberation time to improve the imaging...

In a great Hall there exist general principles of design very well known by MILLENIA beginning with the geniuses Greek architect of theater...

Small room acoustic is a very late and contemporary subject matter existing only for decades....Who was looking for a small audio room acoustically designed in 1950 ? How many? Even now people THINK that the S.Q. COMES from the speakers DIRECTLY....And from their amplifiers...they ignore that the final waves to reach their ears has crossed their room hundred of times in ONE SECOND...For my 13 feet room : 83 times...

Each ear by Haas principle of first frontwave give to the brain a DIFFERENT time responses in MILLISECONDS...Anyway.... It is easy to study that...And what are the implication for the way the brain construct imaging for example and others acoustical cues....

 

 

Most audiophiles were CONDITIONNED like i was about electronic design

orientation toward GEAR selling not toward ACOUSTIC of small room...

I was deluded myself by this general ignorance LESS THAN A YEAR AGO...This is the reason behind my posts here...Acoustic may cost peanuts ....Or a small dedicated room can easily cost more than 100,000 bucks...

My room is not perfect but BEAT my 7 headphones....

 

 

I am pretty sure the OP of this thread KNOW very well this matter subject by the way.... And better than me, Ask him....I am not an acoustician nor a specialist in audio myself....Just a customer without money who was dreaming Hi-FI and knowing how to read books about acoustic or others, i created my own devices......

 

I dont need an upgrade now why?

My audio system is not perfect at all being low cost and my room was created by me not by a pro at high cost...

Because my sound quality make me able to listen the ORIGINAL acoustic cues from the original live recorded event ( It is not perfect, but Goddam good) so well i can forget audiophile expanse till my death....I never ask for perfection with a 500 bucks audio system...But i am not envious anymore of high cost system even if their potential are better than mine...i listen music with good S.Q. fore the FIRST time in my life then i am very satisfied... ALL my albums sound great not only the few audiophile recordings i own...

Music through sounds and sound through musics....Not one without the other....

 

 

Is not the Orchestra Hall built before its performers ever step foot?

@winnardt

To you, there’s only one answer and the question was meaningless, but you can’t know ahead of time what the other answers will be.

No, that’s unfair; look back at my very first post which offers one other way to construe the question. Further answers have been interesting, too. So, no -- I’m not saying there can only be one answer. Give me some credit.

Can’t help advance you on the science fiction question.