How do you know when a stereo sounds good?

When you take the time to learn how audio works, and then instead of wasting your money on things like magic fuses, over priced cable, AC noise isolators that do nothing, Schuman toys, teensy acoustic resonators, and all manor of stuff that does little or nothing, and spend time and money on the stuff that matters oh, like acoustic panels, bass control including sub arrangements, achieving an in-room response that is effective, learning to balance direct/reflective sound, and speakers that don't distort ... then you may have a system that sounds good.

However, you know you really have reached the pinnacle when the owner of an audiophile tweak company goes out of his way to insult you on audio forums.

There is no right or wrong in this hobby. There are only personal subjective preferences to what makes music sound good to each individual. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and accept. 

Because while there are rights and wrongs, or at least valid and false claims. That is what is hard for many to accept. It's fun to believe in magic, but magic is illusion. It is not real.

@jerryg123 , do you mean Ted Denney's group? That is the only audiophile hate group I am aware of on Facebook.

Ask a relevant question @boxer12 , and I will answer it. I played around with cables, etc. 25+ years ago, realized I was an idiot, and moved on. You? Nothing I observed was not easily explained and the usual explanation was bias.

First, I have to address @aewarren's post. Unless you like to whine, Adele will never be listenable. If I didn't speak the same language as Adele and didn't interpret every song as a whine fest, perhaps I may like her. Unfortunately, short of a brain injury that is not going to happen.

@winnardt , i sort of see where @hilde45 is coming from, and perhaps it is the crux of Ted's post. Without a "reference" how do you know if your system is good or bad? And even with a reference, how do you know that the reference is good. From there, what is "good". Quite obviously one audiophiles good is another's crap. People will say "when it sounds like a live performance" ... what venue, where are you sitting, what was your mood, what was your concentration level. Even for a live recording, what is on the recording is never any more than what the recording/mixing engineer thought it should sound like with their system and their ears and brain.

I will take a different tact. Few people have the tools or knowledge, and far fewer the inclination to do the work and understand what, for them, or even in general, "sounds good". You can only "explore" what sounds good, even to you, when you can control for variables. Some of the people who have done this over time we know very well, i.e. everyone knows who Floyd Toole is, perhaps the king of "measurements" in audio, but no one questions that because the result of his measurements is targeted at what we prefer, in general, subjectively. One could say the same about Nelson Pass who intentionally makes amplifiers that are not accurate, never really claims they are except for specific aspects, and who even communicates and markets as such to suit the tastes of his customers. Then there are people behind the scenes intentionally adding distortion and even noise because they know for their target audience, in general the result will be preferred. Floyd, Nelson, and the people behind the scenes learned all this by controlling variables (which includes mood and bias).

I got a private message on my first day, suggesting a look at system pictures, as it would be eye opening. It was. I thought most hard core audiophiles would spend far more time and money on their listening space. I was wrong. How can these people know if their system sounds "good" if they don't even know what their system is capable of or what could be wrong with it?

How do I know my system sounds good?  I know the distortion of my speakers is low. I know the distortion of my electronics is low. I know the on-axis frequency response is flat. I know the off axis response is smooth and controlled and room response is close (but not exact to what Toole and others recommend). I tuned that to my liking, including too much time on acoustics and an unhappy handyman/carpenter. I suspect age may play into my preference for a more elevated high frequency response.

Does this guarantee that my system "sounds good". No. Does my many audiophile buddies saying "wow" when they hear it suggest it sounds good? Possibly.

Here is the crux, everything, including my turntable goes through DSP. I know, heresy! That means I can control everything. Want the system warmer, it is warmer. Want some nice tube distortion (also another form of warm), you got it. Want to center the image a bit, throw in some crosstalk. Want a perceived wider soundstage/concert hall, through in a touch of reverb. I still don't have that one where I want it yet. For me personally, it is normally pass-through, though I find with some music and my mood, the tube "simulation" sounds better to me. When I have friends over who are die hard tube fans, they are amazed that with a few buttons I can turn the system into something they associate with tubes. Some really like the touch of reverb, but I don't think it sounds right yet.

How do I know my system sounds good? Because I built the best "reference" I could within budget and time limits, which gave me a system I could isolate variables with which allowed me to explore what I like and which sounded good to me, but which I could adapt to others preference or my moods. There are some things I want to try to give me even more flexibility, but time is never our friend.

It sounds good when you forget that you are listening to a sound system, and just get lost in the music.

That happens more often in my car than anywhere. Probably the result of there being no distractions (other than driving of course).

@mahgister ,

My home system is fantastic, I am comfortable, and drive a nice car, but you can get a great system in a family sedan as an upgrade these days.

It was purely a comment about state of mind. When I am in the car, it is just me, the other cars, and my music. There is no computer drawing me to do some extra work to keep the company going, no treadmill telling me my butt should be smaller, nothing that needs to be cleaned or washed, no food to make, and I rarely make or answer calls in my car. It's my "safe space" :-)

@khughes , you are forcing me to both rethink my answer, to some degree, and revisit the question.

When do you know your system is pleasing to listen to? How do you conclusively prove to yourself that your system sounds good to you? How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo? Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy?

This is not the innocuous question this may seem to be. For those that don't know Ted, Ted has been on a multi-year, perhaps multi-decade attack on using measurements in audio. He created a "subjective" forum on Facebook where one is not allowed to discuss measurement, he makes fun of people who use measurements on multiple forums and in general to the point of being banned frequently.  It makes total sense, Ted's business is based around selling products that with few exceptions will produce no measurable benefit or a measurable difference so small as to be considered inaudible by any reasonably accepted metric. Even for the most obvious products, i.e. power conditioning Ted has never published any tests that show either a verifiable benefit other than a link one time by a 3rd party that showed just the slightest improvement.

Ted has published innumerable questions like this over the internet, in multiple independent forums, many of which he is no longer welcome at, and in multiple Facebook groups. So what you see as an innocuous question, I see as free marketing.

So since this is a free marketing posing as a question, I will respond with a

Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy?

The answer is yes, yes I do.

- I don't think that my speakers are low distortion, I know they are.

- I don't think that my amplifiers are low distortion, I know they are

- I don't think my crossover are not adding coloration to the music, I know they don't

- I don't think I may or may not have system noise/ground/noise, I know I don't and where I did, I used products with known and verifiable benefits to fix the issue

- I don't have to guess at what my direct / reflected sound is, I know what it is

- I don't think I have an ideal in room frequency response (or more accurately whatever I want it to be), I know I do.

 - I also don't question whether my DAC is free or any number of real and invented artifacts,

- And just for good measure, I don't think my turntable is set up ideally. I know it is.

Now you may think that I believe the perfect path to audio nirvana is zero distortion and a perfectly flat response. You couldn't be farther from the truth. I am very aware of how distortion and frequency response can be manipulated in pleasing ways. I am also aware of what works for some music does not work for others, and even what works for one recording does not work for the next. So why did I set my goal to as perfect as possible?  Two reasons. One is I know exactly how my system performs, hence I know if what I hear is the recording or the system. Two, is I can (with signal processing) dial in whatever I want, depending on the recording, mood, who I am listening with, whatever.

Now I will give props where props are due. Ted does have a very good skill (other than marketing). I honestly believe that Ted has a very good ear, has a good feel for what his customers like to hear, or at least audio reviewers, and importantly, he knows how to set up a trade show room to sound pretty good, which is not an easy feat. There is a reason why Ted uses some of the best speakers made, and equipment that gives what many would consider a pleasant experience, typically tube gear with a typical higher frequency roll off good in a nasty hotel/trade show room. I have no doubt Ted spend hours listening in that room, moving the speakers, etc. till it sounds best, and having a good ear, is probably able to do this better than most.  What I don't believe is that SR equipment in the room, other than the acoustic panels, has much of any impact on the overall sound.

@khughes ,

I probably did not communicate well my intentions w.r.t. measurement, at least to remove all doubt.

The question was posed,

Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy?

To which I would still answer yes, because the measurements "removes all shadow of a doubt". I am not guessing about whether noise, distortion, and any number of variables I can control are detracting from my potential listening enjoyment (I do worry about some variables I have not found a way to control). I know that objectively, within the variables I can control (and justify the money for), that the sound reproduction I am getting is about as good as I can expect w.r.t. recreating what is on the recording medium. With that as a starting point, I can explore all sorts of different ways I can modify the sound to increase my enjoyment, and I already enjoy it a lot. So yes, I would say I have a suite of measurements that ensures I am getting good sound, but I would need to slightly reword to "and enables me to achieve sound I enjoy". I could not achieve the latter without the former. I may get lucky and stumble on it, but the odds would be much lower.

That's why I make the distinction - measurements can control, they can distinguish, they can provide for reproduciblity and repeatablity of particular setups, identify room modes, etc. They identify the "whys" for an individual, not as a general principle, because individual preferences are not determined (measured by, or identifiable by, are not the same IMO) by objective criteria. This may sound like a quibble, but believe it's fundamental to understanding the issue.

It does not sound like a quibble. It sounds almost exactly what I would write :-)  So let's take some license here, and perhaps illustrate to others why I took my approach. Let's say you love the sound of your system with piece of music X, but Y never sounds right. If you are counting on your amp, speaker, maybe some room interaction, lossy cables, etc. to make X sound right, you will never make Y sound right. With DSP, you can push a button and make X and Y sound "right" or at least as best as possible for you.

@noske 

The arguments are meant to first divide the groups and then once divided to isolate the target group. You will note above I called this post thinly veiled marketing which it is. It is meant to create a division between those who use measurements and those that don't and then isolate those that don't from those that do so that those that don't can be targeted with specific marketing and sales messages which don't work with the scrutiny of the other group.