Synergistic Research has finally figured out what a lot of cable makers have known for a long time -- that you don't need active shielding and all the expensive gizmos that go along with it to produce good sound.
So, after you spent all that money on ground-breaking MPCs and Galileo MPCs -- and then the expensive ground-breaking Transporter to replace them -- all those wires snaking around back so you could not figure out what was attached to what -- and tuning bullets and improved tuning bullets -- SR has now launched their Ultra Performance Atmosphere cables -- sans active shielding -- thanks to Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere for the great name. Name poaching is back in fashion.
Trying to unload all of your game-changing SR cables with their active shielding gizmos should be fun -- at the same time everyone else is rushing for the exit. Good luck. Many of your beloved-turned-redundant SR purchases may already have found a new home -- in your Used Audio Gear Storage Closet.
I note that the famous-turned-mundane SR tuning bullets and improved tuning bullets have been supplanted by Red and Blue Ground Plane Tuning Modules. Sounds great. But just wait till Black and Orange Transducer Ground Plane Ultra Tuning Modules come along. Did you notice? Everything is a transducer nowadays at SR.
Speaking of transducers, I wonder why SR would call their resonator HFTs transducers when they have nothing whatsoever to do with real transducers such as speakers and microphones? I guess it's because transducer sounds better than resonator -- a term used by so many companies to describe a variety of room treatment products. I guess it's harder to sell your products when everyone is using the same product name.
I also wonder why SR would talk about their game-changing FEQs "exciting" HFTs when they do no such thing. FEQs look to me like souped up Schumann resonance devices. I have 10 Schumanns in my system -- and lots of DIY HFTs that cost a buck a piece to make vs. the famous SR HFTs at $60 a pop. Schumanns do not "excite" HFTs or other resonators. But saying they do sounds really good. What could be more exciting then a device that "excites" another device. Makes the head spin. The fact is that these room treatments may complement one another but they act independently of one another despite all the exciting promo material. Sorry for this digression.
With the launch of Atmosphere Ultra ICs and speaker wires SR finally admits that their earlier cable offerings were not really Ultra after all -- although they wanted you to believe they were via their promo material and all the reviewers dutifully in tow for the Tesla, Galileo and Element series. Did you notice? SR always finds ways to depreciate the value of their earlier offerings just as buying interest starts to cool for their recent "game-changers".
And this time is no exception. Just when you gave up on the Tesla series and Galileo series and you thought that the Element series was the cat's meow they have found a new way to keep you chasing the cable rainbow -- that merry-go-round fueled by wondrous marketing -- the Atmosphere series ICs and speaker wires. Of course they "set a new benchmark for absolute performance levels" and "deliver state-of-the-art performance" with their “cutting edge technology” while on the way to delivering their "legendary holographic sound" and “the highest levels of performance in the industry”. Did you expect anything less from SR? I note that the background with SR's new Ultra Performance Atmosphere cables is appropriately "ultra black" where before it was only "jet black" and "ink black". Sounds great. You can always depend on SR to come up with a darker shade of black.
As usual, to cover all ends of the market, there are 4 levels of Atmosphere. The good news is that Level 4 is only $5000 for a pair of speaker wires. I wonder how much they will fetch on Audiogon once their upgrades arrive? Shades of Apex and Apex LE. Remember Apex? "Apex is a paradigm shift in cable performance ... [a] no compromise interconnect for the listener who wants it all." Ah, the good old days when SR superlatives were in their infancy.
But the game is not over yet. Wait till SR's new Atmosphere "Ultra Performance" cables are supplanted by the Atmosphere MKII and MKIII. As sure as the sun rises in the east new game-changers will follow on the heels of old game-changers. You can always count on SR for a new angle -- and a good laugh. Stay tuned -- excuse the pun.
We have crossed paths many times in the last decade. Mostly good and I think we are both looking for the next best thing for a fair price.
I do appreciate cable makers (or any audio equipment maker) that experiments outside the norm in their designs. That’s how the technology advances.
Synergistic, and Hi-fidelity come to mind. Some of their designs are really "outside the box" thinking. But oh the prices! And as you have stated the constant upgrading that sometimes seems like a re-marketing scheme.
sabai,
My latest find is the Cerious Technologies graphene cables. You can actually see how they are crafted by an on line video. These cables do provide that extreme audio quality that we crave but for a very fair price. Try the speaker cables and let me know what you think. BTW, I’m just an impressed customer.
Regarding Dunlavy, you stated, " ... In fact, most listeners couldn't even tell their own cable from anyone else's cable in the test group." With all the new cables being brought out by various manufacturers these past few years, this still does not surprise me. I think it is very interesting that not a single cable maker has even tried to refute Dunlavy's cable tests. This speaks to the nature of the cable business, in my opinion. Not that there are not some excellent cables out there. There are. It is just that most are not even worth mentioning, let alone trying to differentiate from others. In spite of the hoopla that cables makers surround their cables with, it's the same old cable game out there today.
You make a valid point when you state "rarely has the new offering sounded any different then the prior series". I have stated earlier on the Forum, and I believe this to be true, that if cable makers were brought into a room and various cables were swapped in a double blind test, few would be able to identify their own cables. There is not only very little distinction between the various versions that each maker brings to market, there is very little distinction between the cables of one maker and another. The exception is the very best cables from the best cable makers.
I will not name names here because some makers feel so threatened and become so defensive about this that they go nuts and jump all over me whenever I talk this kind of sense on the forum about their cables and the price/performance ratio. Since most lack the courage to face these points straight on they have employed various tactics. "Kill the messenger" is their favorite ploy -- attacking me personally and my work. Anything to draw attention away from the subject at hand. Any diversionary tactic goes. They have even gone to such extreme lengths as to send me veiled threats by email and to elicit the support of sympathetic proxies to try to shoot me down. These are the actions of "the cornered desperado".
And especially with cables, it would be great to have a bunch of us, with trust, lending out our cables so we could audition them in our OWN systems. As Jmc said, can't make any bold statements yet. We are at the mercy of the "snake oil" sales pitch. Although Cable Company and Scott Walker offer cable lending libraries, in the end they are high priced at the sale, and you would be better to find the cables elsewhere, at the expense of loosing your lending fee. I have reached out on the Audio Club thread, and have some interest... That's where we can really get a fair trial before buying. And to Sabai's point, rarely has the new offering sounded any different then the prior series. I mean, as a whole, are we that easy? I mean, I understand something in our DNA keeps as reaching for improvements, and amazingly, once the hook is in, the rational part of us always hides the checkbook from the discussion. I can't afford to throw anymore money at this hobby with incremental gains...and most times losses when I look at the price minus the trade-in or out going replaced item sale.
Or worse, the expensive pile of boxes in the corner ! LOL
03-07-15: Colekat You know guys, I have a very good friend who is a cable maker. He is Jonny Wilson of Snake River Audio.
Interesting that you would post this today. I just popped a pair of Jonny's Cottonmouth Signature speaker cables into my system about 2 hours ago. They are sounding very nice, but it's much too early to make any bold statements.
I could not have said it better than when you stated, "if you get hooked into the big boys game, your gonna throw money money at ghosts. I mean what happens with thier [sic] prior offerings, suddenly they suck!"
I tried four or five well-reviewed cables (and interconnects, etc.) years ago, and was impressed enough with Virtual Dynamic Davids and Au24 interconnects that I never had a further urge to "improve" my mid-level system.
Largely diminishing returns simply aren't of interest to me.
You know guys, I have a very good friend who is a cable maker. He is Jonny Wilson of Snake River Audio. He went into business because he was not thrilled with the sound quality of the cables he had tried, especially for the price they were charging. It started with power cords, and now he offers a full loom of cables and some digital offerings as well. Now he buys wire stock from the very same wholesaler a lot of the big boys buy from, assembles them all by hand, all hand soldered with silver or gold connectors, cryo'd just to be sure. It takes two weeks to get an order out because of the process. Now the Fat.... They are sensational sounding cables, at 1/5 th the price of anything out there of equal build and sound quality. As you could only know by using them, they are a great deal and a great product at a fair price, and he can't sell more than 5 or 6 sets a month. Are there better sounding cables, depends on your preference. Dealers tell him that they could sell a ton of them if he RAISED THE PRICE THREE OR FOUR FOLD. Cables are a funny thing with "audiophiles", if they don't cost a bundle they must suck! I have a full set on my home theatre rig and family room system. PCs, ICs, digital, balanced, unbalanced... All OCC Cu with a layer of gold or silver, depending on your choice. So why all this, he makes 30 percent in pocket, 30 percent, a lousy 30 percent for top of the line cables. Good cables are expensive to make, only the end user can determine weather or no they are worth the expense. We can yap back and forth the end game, but how many cable makers are in this discussion. Now before I get off my soap box, I TOTALLY AGREE, if you get hooked into the big boys game, your gonna throw money money at ghosts. I mean what happens with thier prior offerings, suddenly they suck! But, good cables do cost money to build !
If you plot the results folks have, the good the bad and the ugly, assuming you can get access to them all, you will most likely see that the negative results for the device under test do not fit the curve of the total number of results. That's because they are *outliers* and can be *ignored.* Of course died in the wool skeptics are free to believe whatever they wish. No skin off my nose. If the device fails you will see it in the data, so no worries.
Sorry... I'm a scientist, so I always get a kick out of suggestions like just ignoring the results of tests you don't agree with (i.e., negative results). This is a great way to not have to change your mind (and "win"). And of course people do that all the time in science (and every other domain of life) as well.
I think HDMI 2 and beyond should be making cable manufacturers very very focused on new generation needs combined with simplification. I look at my HDMI 2 cable -which provides "4 K Video and up To 32 channels of AUDIO!! And then I look at my reference MIT interconnects with "FAT" wire and ungodly size "NETWORK" "BOXES" and say -to myself "why the 'front door' is audio "ALONE!!" So much more difficult to transmit than "ULTRA HI-DEF" audio +++ video with enormously greater technical requirements?? Yes, I'm feeling choked. Anyone else?
You hit the nail on the head -- the bang for the buck. Many cable makers get away with audio murder -- inferior cables at superior prices. There is another thread at the moment that highlights this very thing with a cable maker -- not Synergistic Research, by the way. I don't want to pour oil on the fire so please look this up if you are interested.
A couple of years ago I stepped away from power cable chase because I wasn't getting the bang for the buck that I was expecting. I sold what I had and purchased Audience powerChord e's for my entire system... which actually put money back in my pocket after selling what I had.
What I liked about Audience was they stuck with their well received powerChord for a long time before bringing out their powerChord e. I've been content ever since until I couldn't resist buying one of their Au24 power chords.
What convinced me to buy the Au24 power chord was the ability to buy the MP (Medium Power)14 gauge version which is about half the price of the 10 gauge Au24 power cable.
I'm a guy that is a firm believer that if you can't torque it... you must torch it... so buying a 14 gauge chord to replace my 10 gauge powerChord e was a leap of faith for me. When I hit the play button, what I heard was enough for me to think what I has hearing was like one of those too good to be true rare middle of the night times when nobody else was on the power grid
When I turned the system on next day and heard the same amazing improvement, I immediately thought what a brilliant marketing move it was for Audience to cut the cost of the Au24 power chord and still offer a better product.
How awful -- humor at a company's expense -- or at an industry's expense -- heaven forbid. From the point of view of cable companies, everything is at the customer's expense. So why not turn the tables with a bit of humor and look at things from a different perspective. Is this really about my true colors? Or about the true colors of cables companies? I think we have seen this kind of tactic before on the Forum -- trying to distract from the OP by shining the spotlight on the original poster.
Some may appreciate the humor, others may not. It's like food, music and women -- a matter of taste. No problem. Each to his own. But no need to get upset. This is not the Audio Grand Jury. It's just a Forum. If you lighten up you may be able to enjoy the ride.
Geoffkait,
You make some good points. Food for a lot of thought.
Monster Cable was the real game changer. Only the Monster was able to prove beyond doubt to both the believers and non-believers that there's indeed a difference between 2 cables. They made it all happen at circuit city. Only the Monster spoke the truth. I believe in the Monster.
I found the Forum post I was referring to earlier. Here is an excerpt from my 2012 post that refers to SR's uptrade program requiring you to purchase SR products double the value of the SR product you want to trade back for 70% credit.
"So, for instance, if you want to purchase the latest version of the PowerCell [value $5000 in 2012], you have to purchase $10,000 in SR products to take advantage of the SR trade-up program. Well, that's a lot of money for many of us. And what if the PowerCell is the only product you wish to purchase? You are left with having to sell your PowerCell off on the glutted aftermarket where the price of PowerCells has dropped drastically.
You are lucky to get much more than $2000 for a used PowerCell these days on Audiogon. But you are better off in the end because if you do get $2500 for your PowerCell you have to come up with $2500 for the new PowerCell instead of $6500 with SR. In the end, unless you are really hot on a new SR product besides the PowerCell, you are much better off not going the trade-up route. It is no gift to customers of modest means."
The SR uptrade program is a trap for the unsuspecting, IMO. Just do the math.
The SR program is called an uptrade program. As I pointed out in another thread a long time ago, if you continually run on the SR treadmill and continue to trade up you end up with nothing and SR ends up with everything. Just do the math. This is a great marketing illusion -- and one of the most profitable ideas SR has ever come up with, IMO. It relies on the susceptible to get on board. And I imagine they do. I did a long time ago until I finally realized that I was losing out on better valued cables from other companies -- and losing a lot of money staying on the treadmill.
Ozzy - someone should have explained to you that Synergistic Research has a lifetime "passport" upgrade program that provides you with 70% of the price you paid for your older S/R cables towards the price of brand new S/R cables. It is one of the very best programs in the industry! No meaningful upgrade path? Absolutely they have one and it is one of the best!
You stated, "... I found many other cables for far less money that provided much more audio enjoyment." I believe many people feel as you do. I was upgrading SR cables for quite a while then gave up when I discovered other cables delivered much better sound at a much better price. It's as simple as that. I believe SR may still have their uptrade policy but that is like going to the casino. The house eventually wins. I pointed out a long time ago on another thread that if you continually uptrade with SR you end up with zero and they end up with it all. But they make it sound attractive to lure those who are susceptible. As you rightly point out, they alienate their customer base and end up encouraging people to look elsewhere. I do give them credit for innovation in the area of room treatments. I think this is their strongest card at the moment.
Thanks for the useful information about the DIY HFTs. I like what mine do in my system. I live overseas and was never able to source the right sized cap on Ebay. They always ended up sending caps that were too wide. So, I have a modified version using the best sized cap I could get hold of and that works well.
Sabai, I owned at one time, the complete top of the line SR products. But, I couldn't keep up with the constant "new and better" products. When the "new" version came out, my recent $$$ purchases became worth a fraction of what I just paid and I was unable to purchase the latest and greatest version.
So, my biggest complaint with SR is that they don't provide the customers a meaningful upgrade path towards the "newest and greatest" version. I finally had to cut my loss and move on. In doing so I found many other cables for far less money that provided much more audio enjoyment, including some DIY versions.
But, you gotta give SR credit for continually searching for improvements to their products. Albeit at the cost of alienating there customer base.
P.S. I'm glad you like my DIY version of the HFT's.
Let's face it, if a base, generic cable worked perfectly, someone would make a $1000 version, numerous customers would buy it, and many of us would want to believe and dream of owning it...lust for it. It's part of 'phile's world.
IMO, some of us need to lighten up and take comments as they come -- and enjoy the humor. "Transgressors" do not have to be met with the "audio guillotine" falling each time someone steps over an imaginary line. Let's keep things friendly and enjoy the ride, shall we?
Well, I am pretty sure wire directionality certainly comes into play. Mid you can't hear the difference in sound by simply flipping your interconnects around you're probably in need of a good old fashioned candle waxing. I won't even mention dielectric material, purity of conductor, the actual conductor metal, the size of the conductor, whether shielded or not, gee whiz, that's already a boatload of variables.
02-26-15: Chrisr We are ALL waiting for someone who can demonstrate that two cables can sound different given that they have 1) same length, 2) same gauge, 3) same connectors, 4) same copper quality.... just different geometry, and insulation.
No, YOU are waiting for someone who can demonstrate....blah, blah, blah.
Don't assume you are speaking for everyone.
I think the differences heard are because of different gauges and/or connectors. Nothing else.
That's better, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I think you're right. The differences will be slight if the construction is similar. Differences heard may be most affected by the conductors, gauge and connectors.
This is really interesting information. I will have to look up Dunlavy. His findings mirror my own feelings and, I imagine, the feelings of many others. Having heard a lot of cables in my system from different makers I agree that most are trade-offs -- if not trade-downs. I also believe that room acoustics are the most important area for improvement once your system is at a certain level. Witness the 30 to 40 room treatments in my system. This is an incremental process. At each stage the sound improves to some degree, depending on the element that is added and its placement. Placement is crucial when you have so many room treatments. Making them work well together is a real challenge -- and a lot of fun, as well. It sounds like Dunlavy is right up my alley.
We are ALL waiting for someone who can demonstrate that two cables can sound different given that they have 1) same length, 2) same gauge, 3) same connectors, 4) same copper quality.... just different geometry, and insulation. I think the differences heard are because of different gauges and/or connectors. Nothing else.
Brauser, lots of people have negative (null) results with AB comparisons, blind tests, whatever. Don't mean a thing because no one person and no single test can prove anything one way or the other. Even if the person is passionate, is sincere, is a good scout and helps older women cross the street. The best advice I can give is to throw out the tests that obtain negative results, there are lots of reasons why even well meaning people get them. They are just outliers.
Here is how I played the game. Seven years ago an audio buddy and major collector send me home with a bunch cables to try, all leading brands at the time. It took weeks to audition them all. I ended up buying mid level MIT because they sounded the best to me. I hate those ugly boxes on the cables. BTW, I have seen the video on youtube of some Guy cutting them open. Don't care, they sound good to me. I went from being a sceptic, to less sceptic after the 2nd set of cables.
Geoffkaik...Dunlavy most certainly was not deaf and designed some of the best speakers ever offered to the public. I talked to him on multiple occasions and he felt very strongly that past a certain threshold, high-end cable manufactures were just playing around with differences that were tradeoffs at best. His listening tests almost always ended with very little correlation of cost to discernable performance improvements. In fact, most listeners couldn't even tell their own cable from anyone else's cable in the test group. I suppose I should also mention that when it came to room acoustics and speaker placement (and such), he was very passionate about those topics and wrote a number of 'white papers' which have become something of a standard in the industry. In fact, if you go to one of your local high-end audio shops and talk about these kind of things, it's likely the advice that will be given will be a rehash of Dunlay's empirical findings, without the salesperson even knowing the source.
I am grateful for the improvements in my system due to the improving quality of interconnects and speaker cables. Also appreciate HDMI. May materials and designs (knowledge) continue to improve. I'm sure they will; our (tech) world is so young. Cheers.
It might be an interesting thought though probably not true, who knows? Michael Fremer over at Stereophile came THIS CLOSE to blind testing some $15K high end cables and win The Amazing Randi's Million Dollar Challenge.
Your comments about John Dunlavy are interesting. I have never heard about this before. But I mentioned somewhere in an old thread that if you did double blind A/B testing with different cable manufacturers in the room I don't think many makers would be able to single out there own cables. This is an interesting thought because if makers don't know their own cables what are the rest of us to make of them?
When I queried Audiogon about the thread being taken down it turns out there is a new person working there and they got things mixed up. So, this was not my doing -- nothing nefarious happening here. Just an honest Audiogon mistake.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
