I was talking about Manhattan below 96th Street - what borough are you talking about? Paul Stewart is not that great of a store - here's the shoe page from their site:
http://www.paulstuart.com/category_template_viewall.cfm?MainCatId=14&ProdCatId=1008&subProdCatId=0&headermenuid=1
I was afraid to look to see whether they still carry Edward Green. |
I agree with the comment of buying some quality used equipment on Agon or similar sites (there are a couple more). As a systems engineer, you are probably somewhat mechanically oriented so a little tweaking and repairs can bag you some fine equipment that others may have given up on. I have a treasure in a maplenoll apollo that IMHO, will stack up for quality with most any out there. I had the great luck of finding one that Lloyd walker personally tweaked and sold. The best part, i got the entire setup including a pretty good cartridge for less than 3500. I had a UNIverse cartridge i quickly put on this beast so the sound competes with anything out there. I also own a vintage pair of Klipschorns that I picked up 8 years ago for less than 1800 and had a set of interconnects that by themselves is worth 1000 retail. I had to go to North Carolina to pick up but it gave me an excuse for a road trip. I have several other steals that i got just watching and waiting. You can spend mega-bucks but you dont have to. Lots of people who are tired of a particular system or component will part with them at cents on the dollar. |
Yeah, Paul Stewart is not great at all. Edward Green would be about $1000, I guess. Anyway, I usually buy for at least half those prices on ebay.
I too was talking about Manhattan below 96th. In Brooklyn, in a good area, you can rent three bedroom for $1800.
But that's enough of this, let's continue about stereo. |
No doubt that good sounding gear can be had for a low amount of money but pushing performance and refinement is going to cost money and the curve gets harder to climb the further you go. Enjoy what you can afford and work hard to make what you spend really count (which it appears you have been doing).
I have always made my more expensive purchases from a portion of work bonuses so it was my personal reward. I guess I am at a good place with audio now because the last good sized influx of cash I decided that I didn't really want anything so I just bought quite a few LPs. |
You have 2 issues
How can anyone afford this? A lot of folks in this forum are solidly in the baby boomer demographic. If you take care of the essentials- family, your life's work, savings/investments, you'll find that stuff that's a stretch at your age is affordable in your late 40's and thereafter- if you take care of the essentials now. For now, focus on analog OR digital (living in NYC, CD's seem more practical for mobility/space issues. OTOH, lots of places to look for vinyl).
Living in NYC- you're paying lots to live there, take advantage of it. You can listen to home audio anywhere, but focus on the things that a big city offers- arts, social outlets, folks who share your interests. Lest I forget- buy shoes on-line. |
I would suggest that you try to meet with some designers and modifiers of equipment. You can also join an audio club(BAAS in SF) and get to hear a lot of the new equipment without having to buy it. Some people on Audiogon will let you listen to their systems. All of the above may somewhat satisfy your need to get new stuff. I also agree about tubes, horns, analog, etc. I would stick to older stuff that has stood the test of time. The big breakthrough for me came when I met Ori(Oritek Audio in San Jose). He showed me my new expensive stuff did not compare to some cheaper stuff. His preamp/dac(which in one configuration is the best digital I've ever heard), his modified Dynaco 70(comparable to Lamm), his modified speakers(perfect for my listening room)showed me that I had misspent money. In short, I think you have to get lucky. If you keep going out there and try(and not buy), maybe you will too. |
Mceljo got it exactly right. I would like to add: Welcome to the real world! I costs money to buy the best of anything (material), and to complain about it and decry the fact that others can is silly. Lots of advise already on how to buy used, etc. But, I have to take issue with some of the comments about NYC.
Yes, NYC can be an expensive city to live in, but it doesn't have to be; not to the extent expressed here so far. But I think the tendency to exxagerate the problem is indicative of a bigger issue, which is at the root of a lot of what is going on socially and politically in our country. Some of us tend to guage how we are doing economically by how others are doing, instead of finding satisfaction in our accomplishments, and being more at peace with our own lot in life; while being willing to work our butts off to improve that lot. There is a tremendous amount of wealth in NYC, and the fact that some can afford to spend $125 for a car service to the airport doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with having to, or choosing to, pay $50 for a yellow cab instead. Sure, rents in the city are ridiculous, but what is wrong with a twenty minute subway commute to a nice nighborhood in Brooklyn or Queens, where one can pay half or even a third of what one pays in Manhattan. BTW, last time I checked sandwiches at Starbucks were $6.25-$6.99, not the $10 claimed. There are plenty of places to get a good meal for well under $10 in NYC. If someone has a problem walking past the many expensive restaurants on the the way to Mamum's Falafel, then I think they need to do a little soul searching. I don't mean to get heavy about this, but I get a little tired of the crying about the high cost of audio gear. BTW, there are many places to take in great live performances for little or no money in NYC. With several music conservatories, faculty and student recitals can be wonderful; for no money. |
Move to a low cost rural area. Buy a nice house in teh country with no neighbors and a large empty room that you can make into your own personal concert hall.
Take the money you save by not living in NY and buy nice gear and lots of music to listen to whenever you want.
You can do the same in NY but for much higher cost of living. You'll get all the other amenities with it to.
Of course, in the country, your leisure options will be different. Hunting, fishing or whatever. But you'll maybe have lots of time to enjoy your investment in music.
Dreams...... |
“It's not having what you want - It's wanting what you've got”
Sheryl Crow – Soaking Up The Sun. |
I believe there is research showing that Americans don't compare themselves to people they are doing better than economically, but instead to those who are doing better than them. Hence, someone making $350,000 doesn't consider himself wealthy even though he is making 6-7x the average income. Instead he thinks he's just getting by because he knows many people who make $2,000,000+ annually. He doesn't exult in what he has achieved, but envies others for what he aspires to. It plays out in the audiophile realm...people describing their $15k systems as modest. As the great philosopher L. McCann spoke: "Trying to keep it real, compared to what?" |
|
Well living in Manhattan doesn't help that's for sure. I live in Queens and I own my apartment. I bought it when real estate was cheep and it has almost quadrupled in value. I do cut out most things people hold dear, no smartphone don't miss it, rarely eat out, drive a 12 y.o. car. I have an okay stereo, nothing amazing like some folks have and I could care less. I like music not what it's played on. I'm a rare person, I have money in the bank, my apartment is almost paid off and I do it on less than 50K/year. |
Onhwy61, my point precisely. And then you have the bigger issue of many supporting economic policies which are irrational and self-defeating, which seek to "even" the playing field by, instead of encouraging self-reliance and initiative, try to take as much as possible from the wealthy. I am not wealthy by any means, but to the wealthy who gained their wealth through hard work, and creativity, I say: Good for you, buy that AR Reference component, so that when you get the itch to upgrade, I can have a shot at owning something I would not be able to afford otherwise. |
Well living in Manhattan doesn't help that's for sure. I live in Queens and I own my apartment. I bought it when real estate was cheep and it has almost quadrupled in value. I do cut out most things people hold dear, no smartphone don't miss it, rarely eat out, drive a 12 y.o. car. I have an okay stereo, nothing amazing like some folks have and I could care less. I like music not what it's played on. I'm a rare person, I have money in the bank, my apartment is almost paid off and I do it on less than 50K/year. |
frogman.. most wealthy people either inherited their bounty or made killings based on POLICY.. see wall street and bankers. to put down people of lesser wealth with the why don,t people work harder is just more of people participating in there own domination. still waiting on trickle down and tax cuts to start working are you? |
Frogman - You're not too far off the mark. We all tend to want more no matter how much we have. My wife and I make a solid income, just under $200k combined, have two cars that are paid for and live in a "small" house that's under 1,400 sq-ft. We don't have any debt outside of the house payment, contribute to savings and retirement so I consider that we're financially responsible, but sometimes I wonder where all our money goes when I compare to friends that are living on less than half of what we make. I actually feel like I'm wasting my money, sometimes, by needing as much as we seem to make. I know it's possible to live on much less but I also know that we could spend more if we had it. I think the last time that I saw the statistics we were in the top 5% for income in the US and almost everyone I know lives in a bigger house and many drive nicer cars. I often wonder how much dept they must have. I think the key is to focus on your financial life and make good decisions for you and your family. It's impossible to compare to other because you don't know if they really have the money that it appears or are just carrying a ton of debt. |
Well done digepix,adamd1205 I have pioneer silver-pioneer elite [old]stuff, klipsch vpi hw-19.two ch and 5.1 and lots of music I love it.but I have a buddy that spent 98 k on one pair of masters,and he loves my sound and I love his.and we are still friends....... Its not what you spend its about the music isn`t It |
I like what Mceljo said. My wife and I do okay, one car note, house note, thats it. Everything else is paid for. We take vacations we have saved the money, however I see friends who make less, take elaborate vacations, have the best of everything and never think twice about spending. Then one day when one said, "I should try to start a savings account" it dawned on me how much better off I'm doing. If and when we get bonuses, my wife and I pay off anything credit card debt we have, which is usually little to nothing, a few hundred in each of our pockets, the rest in savings. I'd rather buy a new amp, or better speakers, but I also like the security of knowing if work slows, I can take time off without having to start selling off my toys. I have $3500 wrapped up in my system. I've been putting money back for new cables, because some new and exciting ones came out. Yesterday I took that money and bought music with it. I need too quit obsessing about buying new toys and focus on why I even have a stereo. It's not "audiophile" grade, but it sounds pretty damn good to me. |
What we tend to forget is just how well most of us have it in this great country of ours; even with all those horrible, greedy corporations, and wall-street types. Here we are, sitting comfortably at our computers, talking about the high cost of AUDIO GEAR (!?!?), when as we write there are uprisings in another another part of the world, where millons live on $2 a day. Yes, trickle down does work. |
I don't think a person can just use the mind to make audio purchases. I have made mistakes doing it that way. Just because an item gets good reviews doesn't mean one should buy it. Also, you can get the same buzz by buying some cheap tweaks. I know a friend who has the best system, and he felt the exact same way we do about purchasing a $300,000 amp. He wanted it, but he couldn't afford it(he eventually got it.). He had the exact same emotions that we have about a $2,000 amp. |
One mistake I have made is to buy a component that sounded great in another system or had a great review, but ended up not working in my system.
It's hard to avoid making this type of mistake buying used - it's how you react to it that can cost plenty. One time I bought a pair of speakers I had heard sounding good in another system, but not good in mine. I was told that they "needed quality electronics" to sound their best. Before I knew it, EVERYTHING had to be upgraded, and listening wasn't much fun until that had been done. I would have been far better off taking the attitude that a component isn't for me if, by itself, it doesn't improve my system.
So the lesson is: If anyone buys a $300,000 amp and it doesn't work in your system, save yourself a ton of money & gift it to me;) |
trickledown economic policy is just another bunch of hogwash you swallowed irroniclly on ronnie raygunz 100 birthday. hang on to your most cherished fantasies. when speaking about forgetfulness speak for yourself and not the 'we'. by the way unemployment is at 10 percent with millions of people over the age of 50 with no hope of ever working in their field of choice again. enjoy you ivory tower frogman. maybe get away from your comfortable listening position and your keyboard and check out the real world. |
Here's another example of to show that you can't compare yourself to others when it comes to finances. I have a good friend that started working the same day that I did and the way promotions work we'll likely always make just about the same amount of money unless one of us chooses to move into management. Most people consider him to be the typical selfish toy buyer and would never expect him to really be responsible with his money. All they see is his new toys, but what most didn't realize is that he's put more into his retirement than anyone I know, doesn't go into debt, but does spend very freely with the remainder of his money. I was scratching my head recently when he and his wife purchased a 4,100 sq-ft house that cost over $400k. I can't imagine wanting a house that big, but also don't know how'd I'd afford the payment. I found out later that he actually had enough cash in the back to put the majority of 20% down without selling their other house. I was impressed. As it turns out he'd been banking a ton of his per diem and overtime from several years of traveling for work. Even I didn't realize how financially solid he was. He's one of my best friends and I wouldn't have guessed how much money he'd saved in an effort to purchase the house of his dreams. |
Use some clever items, helping your self to define the term
"I refuse to follow the industry"
After this , audio evaluation, progression steps & urgrade path, can be a really easy, safe & fun activity.
One of this items I advise you as the starting point for your new clever audio life is the old "Red Rose R3"
A speaker that knows the heart & deeper meaning of music, that can open a whole new orizon in your senses & help you to escape from the usual hi-fi listening.
A 2X50W vintage (70's) preferably tube receiver or integrated is more than good enough (talk about smart buys).
A Lenco L75 is the next component to give you the chance to confirm & prove to your self your dedication to this hobby.
The 12" cherry arm for $250 is excellent for some great MM cartridges, the choise of them must directed by the amp too.
In general, the point of view for this clever approach, is to never pass the "good enough" threshold.
Strictly forbidden !
It is absolutely necessary to avoid the spider's web of the endless & unreasonable upgrade expenses & therefore to have the emotional space in your heart & the peace of mind to take pleasure in the use of your system & to commit yourself to enjoy the music at last ! |
Join the DIY bandwagon. Upgrade your system with a soldering iron and not your wallet! |
Hotmailjbc, why you feel the need to be insulting, and personalize what could, instead, be an interesting, and thought provoking discussion about a pertinent current issue is beyond me. But, I certainly think it speaks volumes about your ability to grasp the realities of the subject. No "put down of those with lesser wealth" was done by me whatsoever. But, it is obvious I struck a chord in you with my stated opinions. Opinions which are simply that...albeit supported by some pretty strong data; if you care to learn the facts. Just one example: there are more entrepeneurs than investors on the Forbes list.
Anyway, I think that your response is very indicative of one of the key differences between our respective philosophies about all this. I would prefer to have a constructive dialogue, you prefer to demonize, and be insulting. One other concrete, and very telling difference is in your comment: "unemployment is at 10 percent with millions of people over the age of 50 with no hope of ever working in their field of choice again". See, you would prefer to focus on the fact that some, unfortunately, might have to work in a field other than their chosen field; as if that were a great sacrifice. I would say, where is it written that life is fair, and that it is not very messy sometimes? And that what is necessary sometimes is to work; period. Anyway, this has certainly veered too far away from the subject of this thread. But, if you would like to continue this discussion in a mature manner, and hear the perspective of someone who was born and grew up in a socialist country, and who came to this great country without a penny in his pocket, feel free to email me privately
Regards. |
Even $50k system put together within the span of fifteen years would not cost per month as much as many other things. Some manage to spend $1k/month on food alone. Setting priorities and discipline are important. Almost anyone can afford good sound, but not the best sound and not right away. |
What I don't understand is how you can enjoy a stereo at any reasonably loud level in NYC? Small rooms in apartments and neighbors on all sides seem to preclude and decent listening volume. I understand music can be enjoyed at more modest volumes, but I suspect if I lived in NYC my neighbors would not be happy about me playing Telarc 1812 overture at 10pm when I get home from work (I work for a NYC firm, but not in NYC so I both spend a fair bit of time in the city and also work similar or worse hours).
The point of the above, is that I think you can save a lot of money by going with a smaller system. Me, I drool over MC301s and MG20s, when at modest volume, there is not a whole lot of difference between them and my MG1.6s even that is a pretty big system. Just be happy with what you have. I did just fine and loved music for over a decade with some infinities and a Sony ES receiver. I could afford spend them money on the system I really want, but like everything you have to make choices and the marginal utility just is not there. Heck, I would probably be happy with MMGs and an ST70.
Music should be about how it makes you feel more than having the best possible stuff.
|
frogman, you assume so much and dance on the old mantle of i crawled here without a penny from a cursed socilist country blah blah blah. wrap yourself in the flag and you can be somebody. i too came to life here without a penny and made it. i also see this great country prop up phony distators and bomb innocent people into oblivion and have the courage to stand up to what i think is wrong. i am a unabashed socialist and have spent my life fighting, rascism, sexism, ignorance and poverty, and militarism. since this is such a "free?" country i guess i have the right to do so . so keep your lectures about how we are so "lucky" to be here to yourself. grasp that. look up the word hegemony and you might gain some insight to how unquestioned acceptance of the status quo works. |
Hey hotmail, living in the Ozarks you should have no problem finding anyone to fight with regarding your views on just about any topic you choose. Why not seek one of your neighbors out for a good argument. Doing it here is only dragging this BS thread farther into absurdity. |
I guess I could just rest my case, as you have made it for me very nicely. I would have preferred to continue this privately, but if you insist. And, alas, I can't resist a good banter; I have a little free time today.
Predictably, hipocracy rears it's head. You want the privilege of lecturing others, but when they disagree with you want to silence them ("keep it to yourself").
You claim the high road, and while admitting to be an unabashed socialist, choose to live in this horrible, oppressive, capitalist society.
Anyway, fire away, but no further response will be forthcoming. See, I am glad that there is a viewpoint like yours as part of the mix. Kind of like putting a tube preamp in front of a too-aggressive ss amp. The end result can be just right :-)
To Adam1205, and other fellow Audigoners, I apologize for letting this get so far off-track. |
Well I was talking about trickle-down *technology*, not economic policy. Marantz's first customer was a near Eastern sheik; hardly anyone else could afford hand-built cost-no-object high end components. Sequerra's Model 1 Tuner was $2500 in 1975 (almost $10K in today's money for an FM tuner!). Within a year Kenwood had one based on the same principle for $599. In the '40s the IBM CEO famously said that there might be 7 customers worldwide for a computer. At $7M per ($76M in today's money), he was probably right, but today we can get computers for $499 that far surpass the performance of the old ones.
By the same token, you can get a wider bandwidth, more linear, more transparent system today that will run circles around most systems from the '70s (including musical satisfaction) for far less (adjusted for inflation). |
This logic does not work on hi-fi 'cause the customers were morons & so their demands are more about cosmetics than sound.
Another reason is the inability to measure the audio quality & to define standards as a target to surpass, so the progression remains always in doubt.
The consummers of the computer scene are practically oriented people, unlike the passionate & confused audio consummers that more often are fighting with their ego & complex syndroms of disorder personality.
This field is the paradise of the corrrupted. |
man people here really like to dish it out but sure can,t take any opinions other than "believe what i believe" or "buy what i buy" blah blah blah. typical a retentive audiophiles compensating for their shortcomings. trying elavating your consciouness instead of this total absorbtion with entertainment.......oh,, and the constant patronizing is just too much |
I lived in a pre-war building with concrete walls - no one ever complained in my building, but someone in the next building over once felt compelled to chuck pennies at my window until she got my attention ("I really like Neil Young, too, but I can't hear my T.V.").
The socialist versus the Fox News type: there should be an island for you ... |
I see some are bashing NYC. I have to say, for me, it worked out great. And I love the city.
I find NYC to have a great financial advantage in hifi. If you manange to settle in NYC, you will likely have a higher income than pretty much anywhere else within the same job. A hot dog vendor at Central Park on average makes $150,000.00 anually which is not much money here in NYC. However, a 3k cartridge is 3k for a NYC guy or a guy in Denton, Texas. |
I make millions and still can't find a satisfactory rig |
Many people can justify driving an Acura instead of a Honda Accord. For the difference, you could buy a very nice sound system. No one will think you're crazy for buying the Acura, and Acura's spending a lot of money on ads to drive that point home.
Still, if you don't care what people think, you might get more pleasure out of the sound system. |
@Jyprez:
For a NYC reasonable fee, I will help you find a satisfactory rig! ;-) |
And most people who live in Manhattan don't even bother with cars regardless of income. When they want to drive somewhere they just rent it.
But, hey, Acura is better then Honda Accord, and Lexus is better than Toyota. Both feel like bucket compared to most BMWs. |
Hotmail, it is bad enough this thread has de-volved into nothing but a rant about the cost of living in NYC. Throwing in the political crap is just making things worse. It doesn't matter to me if you follow Chairman Mao or Barry Goldwater, but can we keep the topic somewhat on audio instead of politics? There are lots of other forums where everyone can argue politics. Audiogon is what we make it. |
Everyone is different. Some people have children and big expenses, but also have correspondingly big incomes. Ordinary middle class people like myself look forward to tax refunds, other unexpected windfalls, and birthday and Christmas gifts. Also, selling old equipment to finance new stuff. I also buy 90% of my stuff used. |
Yup, this thread violates the sanctity of at least two of the four topics one ought not discuss in polite company: money, politics, religion and sex. It's all BS and opens a nasty can of worms... |
Ironically, audio discussion are very similar to duscussion that happen on relligious forums. Nobody ever convinces anyone of an alternate view and there's not way to tangibly prove who's right or wrong or if there's even a distinction. Audio costs lots of money and the marketing is often not much different than the lies spurted out by politicians. Finally, paying the retail prices of most high end audio gear is the equivalent of getting screwed so I'd propose that discussion about audio equipment is nothing more than a tasteful way of discussing money, politics, religion and sex... |
"so I'd propose that discussion about audio equipment is nothing more than a tasteful way of discussing money, politics, religion and sex..."
Brilliant!
And the reason that music is seldom part of the discussion. |
Wall St Bonuses, mine is coming in two weeks. Oh wait Wife wants a patio something we dont have, but we have a pair of Thiels :). Adamd1205 - I 1st heard the Thiel 1.2 in 1992 I didnt get to buy mine until 2007. Some of my other eq was gifts from my wife before the KIDS came, or a few years ago I quit smoking and put all the money over a years time into a strong box hence my Primare CD21 and TT. It takes time and alots of research and listening to everything you can so you dont waste your hard earned cash. I think its more about taking your time unless your talking about 40K mono blocks.
Good Luck. |
Yes please...
Let's close this topic here with this bitter wisdom. |
02-08-11: Thegoldenear
Wall St Bonuses, mine is coming in two weeks. Oh wait Wife wants a patio something we dont have, ... Which reminds me: Q: What's the difference between a penis and a bonus? A: Your wife will blow your bonus. |
@Johnnyb53 this is true :) |
don't be a fool with your money is the general advice. however, from what i am reading it appears that that is exactly what you have been. for some people it makes them feel good to spend $50,000 on a power amplifier. if they've got the money and it's burning a hole in their pockets, the spending it on the power amp is all good. but when someone spends that kind of money, they aren't buying for value. this audio stuff is like artwork: how much is a painting worth? well, how good is it? the answer to both questions is highly subjective. furthermore, once you have shelled out the cash, you have a vested interest in convincing at least yourself that the big money purchase allowed you to realize breathtaking levels of "transparency" that you could have never realized with less expensive equipment. there is a certain "emperor's new clothes" aspect to this stuff. that's high end audio in a nutshell...
the difference between high end and "mid fi" like nad and rotel is that in high end audio equipment the makers spend a lot more time designing equipment that colors the sound in a way that is presumably pleasing to the listener. so if you look at published specifications, it would be difficult to tell much difference. since high end audio is about coloration, the difference is more likely to show up in phase response charts, the kind of stuff that is rarely published.
you see some of these virtual systems that look like they are in specially designed rooms, complete with acoustical treatments. i'm figuring some of these homes have to be 5,000+ sq. ft. to allocate that kind of space to a dedicated listening room. then then load it up with several $100,000 worth of audio equipment. first of all, if you shell out that kind of money, you've got a great sounding system - cognitive dissonance would allow you to recognize no less - you don't shell out that kind of money and tell people: "i guess it sounds alright".
secondly, you can't beat room acoustics. i mean, audiophile talk of wanting to recreate the sound of live performance but if you go to a live performance at a large arena, the acoustics (and sound) are often terrible. so if you are going to shell out big cash it's probably not going to make a whole lot of sense unless you have an acoustically conceived room. but if the room is so acoustically good, you could just as well load it up with rotel or nad components and they would also sound good. in fact, i think that the room acoustics make a lot more difference than the differences that you would perceive in equipment. |
