Roxy, if my criticism of what I perceive as an utterly over the top example of fawning over, exaggerating of, and mythologizing the benefits of pointy bits seems to you to have a tone of desperation (!), you miss my beautifully (and, dare I say, poetic?) thoughtful and scientifically, or not, hopefully Belicosity Draining points. Vibrapods and other small squishy things work for me (they also keep things from sliding around…an added plus), the 5 thousand dollars of pointy shelves Star Sound is about to give me (thanks guys…you're the BEST bespectacled geeks EVER) might sound better (emphasis on "might"), and I don't keep my weed in my rack drawer as it is RUINED by all that damn vibration. Also, I am at a loss as to how to get the vibration away from the electronic bits mounted inside my guitar amps (with the speaker in the same space, which I think is supposed to vibrate), as well as those inside my sub…all of which currently sound fabulous…makes no sense…and now with the increasing popularity of active speakers there is likely to be a complete meltdown among the Seekers of Theoretical Draining (STD), as all could be lost. I think I'm just going to squirt gallons of silicone into my gear and call it a day. |
07-20-15: Atmosphere
Geoff, the key is to teleport the mechanical energy away from the vibrating object or at a minimum trick the mind into believing it has happened.....:)
We can easily see the effects of improper setup relating to the use of points (or lack thereof) in our cutting lathe (you can see the extra vibration in the grooves via the microscope) so I know for a fact that the above statement is incorrect. You missed the double entendre in my statement Ralph. Geoff did not. In terms of the correctness inherent in my joke (which does indeed allude to the SS concept), it depends. Music and musical instruments are vibratory entities and do not benefit from absolute stability like a lathe or a SEM. Speakers, walls, subs, and even tubed gear can be viewed in a similar fashion (in theory...). Sound anchor comes from a more traditional, isolation based model which can work too. I guess you could do some simple accelerometer measurements on your speaker cabinets and compare SS and SA. Ralph, have you ever tried a SS stand? BTW, you need a haircut....the old hippie aesthetic went out the door a long time ago....:) |
Wolf_garcia, your post deserves no responce. |
Well, to be accurate absolute isolation is not feasible but that's actually not the issue since we know all the mass on spring systems behave as low pass mechanical filters anyway. The objective of course is to construct a device with as many directions of isolation and as low a resonant frequency in those directions as possible without over damping or under damping. Most (well designed) devices have resonant frequencies circa 3 Hz which as fate would have is not low enough to filter the peak resonance of the Earth crust motion. Nevertheless, 3 Hz devices sound very good. |
Thanks Atmasphere, I didn't know MAC used ringers. |
Long hair on a male is not a hippie aesthetic, it's a Native American one. I represent that remark ;-). |
I'm pretty sure long hair on a man these days means he knows Karate. |
I didn't know MAC used ringers. At the time they only had one other person playing bass. So they came to my high school looking for recruits as we were close by and our orchestra was the best high school orchestra in the state. Times sure have changed! |
07-20-15: Bdp24
Long hair on a male is not a hippie aesthetic, it's a Native American one. I represent that remark ;-). To what degree do you represent that remark? My wife and I are both essentially Norwegian/Scottish, but she is also an 1/8 Cherokee and something else. She has a beautiful mane of hair and tans beautifully while I look like I don't belong....:) To me, long hair means you're a disciple of Robert Bly (or at least read his poetry) and run through the woods with no shoes or shirt on the way to that drum circle. For all we know, that's where Atmasphere amps were born....not in a lab with measurement devices in the throes of a sweaty, ecstatic frenzy.... |
TBG…your response to my post noting it deserves no response is in fact a response, although maybe the word "responce" means something else, although more likely you can't spell the word. I will take this to mean it stands as the perfect post and all others are "post post perfection" from all but previous posters. |
Hello Atmasphere,
In our opinion, you have taken our statements out of context. Please understand our comments here with regards to Live Vibe Technology™ and the information regarding Star Sound products is assumed that our technology is in place inside the equipment, below the equipment, adapted to musical instruments and/or building structural frameworks.
Therefore in response to your information listed on 07-20-15 we wish to assert the following:
Energy caused from vibration cannot be eliminated - physics 101.
“The technology of points and vibration absorption materials is not going to go away” - and we agree. Live-Vibe Technology uses Audio Points™ as the initial point of contact with equipment and flooring however we do not employ absorption materials in our innovations other than brass and steel. Brasses and steels too have damping (absorptive) factors.
“A proper stand and platform design can be proven effective” - and we totally concur however we do Not agree with your comment “proven effective for the past 6 decades”. If you are implying ‘sixty years’ of vibration management in audio;
To the best of our knowledge:
Audio Points was the second ever conical shaped product in the audio marketplace and began selling in 1988. Tip Toes was the first and began selling in late 1987. In the mid 1990’s audio racking was still largely referred to as furniture. We can trace the first absorption stands using sand, lead and rubber based systems from companies such as Zoethecus and Bright Star along with the first mechanical grounding racks from RoomTune and Sound Anchors to the early 90’s. The Sistrum Platforms™ release was in 2000 and was the first audio racking system marketed bearing the name recognition as a “platform”.
My father was an audiophile. As a teenager I spent a lot of time with him at Bell Laboratories whose engineers were also avid audiophiles. They took Fisher amplifiers to another level of performance , built their own electronics designs, modified the best Garrard had to offer, constructed their own speaker systems, tuned up Fisher reverb tanks for stereo systems but never did they mention or quantify anything on vibration control. This was the 60’s.
In the early 70’s Mr. Dick Boak of the C.F.Martin & Company (guitars) built a couple equipment racks out of exotic woods for a few friends. We knew our gear sounded a bit better on the more rigid build and different woods but never understood why and could not come up with any information or knew anything about vibration control as a topic for increasing equipment performance. I have owned McIntosh, Dynaco, Acoustic Research, and Sansui during the same time period and could not locate any mentions of vibration control in any of their owner’s manuals.
Employed as a sound engineer and spending over a dozen years in the music business - vibration was only ever discussed and/or addressed in recording studios as a minor topic when studying acoustic surroundings, microphone stands and record mastering but again it was never perceived as a principle science for improving sound quality.
During Star Sound’s inception period some sixteen years ago, our group of engineers spent hours researching vibration control in consumer audio and professional sound industries and found very little information. Agreed historically there were many uses and approaches to controlling vibration outside the audio sector but again very little written, little understood in what has become a highly subjective and sensitive subject here on AudioGon.
Our primary purpose participating in this forum is to learn, gather knowledge, provide information but more importantly listen to people who experiment in sound. We cannot afford the time for debates targeting “ours is better than theirs” arguments. Star Sound is presenting a newfound technical approach to vibration management and admits we do not have all the answers.
Our technology has gone full cycle in audio related fields. We have listener accepted products and prototypes in use - both inside and underneath electronics and loudspeakers, musical instruments and structural sound room environments. Live-Vibe Technology™ is currently undergoing third party testing by a licensed UL® approved laboratory in order to quantify this proprietary vibration management science. Additional acoustic testing will be provided by two privately owned recording studios adding more data to compare with the laboratory profiles.
In closing Atmasphere, we have never stated vibration does not make a difference in performance so please do not turn around and run in the other direction. We have products available that will greatly improve the sound of your string bass as well. You are always welcome to telephone us anytime.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
Agear, only in the hair length sense. I too have Norwegian ancestory, the closest I come to Native American is my dad was from S. Dakoda! I used to tan, but stopped when cancer's starting showing up on skin in my 40's. Too much time at the Santa Cruz beach in my 20's! |
Atmasphere, I assume you know this, but if not--- The acoustic do-over on MAC's Meirs concert hall has made as good a 350 seat space as you will hear. |
07-21-15: Bdp24
Agear, only in the hair length sense. I too have Norwegian ancestory, the closest I come to Native American is my dad was from S. Dakoda! I used to tan, but stopped when cancer's starting showing up on skin in my 40's. Too much time at the Santa Cruz beach in my 20's! Ha! An aging hippie like Atmasphere then....excellent. Studies have shown that THC accelerates hair growth in 50-something males. Santa Cruz is a hell of a lot nicer than SD. UC-SC is one of the most beautiful campuses I have ever seen (and I am not talking buildings....). If I had gone to school there, what with the open curriculum and other temptations, I would have graduated with a major in "consciousness" and not much else. My mother-in-law is an Erickson and was raised in Southern cal. Baked in baby oil for much of her youth and got a nasty melanoma that almost killed her. My folks both grew up in Africa, and their Derm is constantly plucking little skin cancers out. Scary stuff.... |
07-22-15: Schubert
Atmasphere, I assume you know this, but if not--- The acoustic do-over on MAC's Meirs concert hall has made as good a 350 seat space as you will hear. How does it compare to the Symphony hall in downtown Saint Paul? Sadly, I only went once due to training.... |
I would say its better than Ordway in downtown St. Paul, but a much smaller space. |
What the hell are you guys talking about? And WHY? |
Just nonsense in an effort to irritate you personally . |
Just shop talk Draudt. Now back the to regularly scheduled programming.....:)
I do plan on upgrading to the Rhythm or Backstage when able. I currently use the 101s from yore.... |
however we do Not agree with your comment “proven effective for the past 6 decades”. If you are implying ‘sixty years’ of vibration management in audio;
To the best of our knowledge:
Audio Points was the second ever conical shaped product in the audio marketplace and began selling in 1988. Tip Toes was the first and began selling in late 1987. In the mid 1990’s audio racking was still largely referred to as furniture. We can trace the first absorption stands using sand, lead and rubber based systems from companies such as Zoethecus and Bright Star along with the first mechanical grounding racks from RoomTune and Sound Anchors to the early 90’s. The Sistrum Platforms™ release was in 2000 and was the first audio racking system marketed bearing the name recognition as a “platform”.
You might want to take a look at my prior posts. As I mentioned in them, my Scully LP mastering lathe employs a heavy steel table which has adjustable points built into its feet. It was made in the late 1940s. Upon the table is a special vibration-damping platform, on which the lathe itself resides. The lathe has three feet, all quite pointed and adjustable which engage cups built into the platform. So this use of points precedes the Mod Squad by about 3 decades and change. It is incorrect to say you can't get rid of vibration. A proper vibration damping system translates vibration into heat. I use Ultra Resolution Technologies platforms which were developed by Warren Gehl (currently at ARC; he also designed a very effective platter pad for damping resonance in LPs; although very effective neither product is still in production) and they have proven quite effective. Platforms are also used beneath powerful microscopes for the same purpose and are shown to be quite effective- so much so that some audiophiles have used the same platforms in their home systems. |
07-23-15: Atmasphere
however we do Not agree with your comment “proven effective for the past 6 decades”. If you are implying ‘sixty years’ of vibration management in audio;
To the best of our knowledge:
Audio Points was the second ever conical shaped product in the audio marketplace and began selling in 1988. Tip Toes was the first and began selling in late 1987. In the mid 1990’s audio racking was still largely referred to as furniture. We can trace the first absorption stands using sand, lead and rubber based systems from companies such as Zoethecus and Bright Star along with the first mechanical grounding racks from RoomTune and Sound Anchors to the early 90’s. The Sistrum Platforms™ release was in 2000 and was the first audio racking system marketed bearing the name recognition as a “platform”.
You might want to take a look at my prior posts. As I mentioned in them, my Scully LP mastering lathe employs a heavy steel table which has adjustable points built into its feet. It was made in the late 1940s. Upon the table is a special vibration-damping platform, on which the lathe itself resides. The lathe has three feet, all quite pointed and adjustable which engage cups built into the platform.
So this use of points precedes the Mod Squad by about 3 decades and change.
It is incorrect to say you can't get rid of vibration. A proper vibration damping system translates vibration into heat. I use Ultra Resolution Technologies platforms which were developed by Warren Gehl (currently at ARC; he also designed a very effective platter pad for damping resonance in LPs; although very effective neither product is still in production) and they have proven quite effective. Platforms are also used beneath powerful microscopes for the same purpose and are shown to be quite effective- so much so that some audiophiles have used the same platforms in their home systems. Robert's statement was correct IMO. The products that translate vibration into heat are not perfect. Their are active products as you mentioned that are analogs of what is used in the world of SEM (http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1371914466.jpg) and may have some merit, but I know people who have used them and converted to Sistrum. Furthermore, you cannot easily translate that technology for products that really vibrate like speakers, subs, and walls. ): Do you amps run cooler on those stands? Why did they go out of production? |
Hello Atmasphere,
Sorry for missing your previous thread information on the cutting lathe and hopefully we stand corrected.
Are you sure the cones were not used as a truer means of leveling and stability requirements or were actually designed for vibration management purposes? It is long recognized that cones positioned into a cup provides a more efficient means for restricting slippage and movement.
We would really appreciate it if you could refer us to any information where Scully quantifies this system was designed as a method of vibration management. This would be the first documentation we have ever come across pre 60’s related to our studies.
Our answer to your previous writing with regards to vibration was ‘specific’ in that you cannot “eliminate” vibration. However your new statement is correct with regards to “getting rid of vibration” by converting the vibration into heat. Conversion through multilayered damping is a well applied methodology but we find those techniques to be a much slower process in comparison to our approach.
Star Sound’s adaptation is to transfer resonance at high-speed via conductive pathways away from the source of vibration keeping everything related to and the signal in constant motion. The earliest research we found on Resonance Energy Transfer was published in the IBM Journal dated 1968 titled - The Resonistor - A Frequency Selective Device Utilizing the Mechanical Resonance of a Silicon Substrate by R. J. Wilfinger, P. H. Bardell and D. S. Chhabra.
Regards to the microscope isolation tables, Bell Engineers improved the techniques of stabilizing electron microscopes during the development of the world’s first transistor production line implemented by Western Electric, Allentown PA in 1951.I know this statement to be accurate as it was a principal project my father participated in. We understand and definitely relate to why isolation tables were developed but have issues with their applications in audio reproduction where sub-harmonic frequencies and chassis micro motion play an extremely small role related to musical instruments and the audible range of human hearing.
The only comparisons in performance we have obtained related to these devices used in audio was provided by Norm Luttbeg who recently published a review on the Rhythm Platform for StereoTimes Magazine and Ddraudt a well experienced audiophile here on AudioGon. I am sure you can contact both of them for their opinions.
We have discovered situations where a science and product developed for minimizing vibration dedicated to other purposes such as microscopes, heavy machinery, underwater or flight research or building foundations related to earthquakes generally does not provide sonic results that one might imagine when applied in conjunction with audio equipment and listening environments.
It has become obvious to us that there is a great deal of information and technology yet to be discovered and understood linking the various sciences of vibration control to a common single understanding especially when it boils down to personal opinions on likes and dislikes when listening to or making music.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
"Star Sound’s adaptation is to transfer resonance at high-speed via conductive pathways away from the source of vibration keeping everything related to and the signal in constant motion." Hmmm…a line certainly worthy of any Faith Based Audio mythology discussion as it makes exactly ZERO sense…what also mystifies me is that there is any connection between claims of lowering the temperature of amps and providing profound tempo improvement using pointy things stuck to racks (!), and damping unwanted vibration in lathes and microscopes (necessary), except as it applies to the History of Damping. I do think the cello spike could make a great barbecue skewer though…and has the added benefit of making burnt food sound better. Underwater Earthquake Flight Research notwithstanding, I anxiously await the results of "further research" into the science of how vibration control (read my paper, "Microscopes and Subwoofers, a Paradox in Waiting"…Merkel Press $2.95) yields a "common single understanding" boiling down to "personal opinions on likes and dislikes when listening to or making music." Seriously, statements like can provide me with what surfing genius George Greenough described as "the innermost limits of pure fun." |
07-24-15: Wolf_garcia
"Star Sound’s adaptation is to transfer resonance at high-speed via conductive pathways away from the source of vibration keeping everything related to and the signal in constant motion." Hmmm…a line certainly worthy of any Faith Based Audio mythology discussion as it makes exactly ZERO sense…what also mystifies me is that there is any connection between claims of lowering the temperature of amps and providing profound tempo improvement using pointy things stuck to racks (!), and damping unwanted vibration in lathes and microscopes (necessary), except as it applies to the History of Damping. I do think the cello spike could make a great barbecue skewer though…and has the added benefit of making burnt food sound better. Underwater Earthquake Flight Research notwithstanding, I anxiously await the results of "further research" into the science of how vibration control (read my paper, "Microscopes and Subwoofers, a Paradox in Waiting"…Merkel Press $2.95) yields a "common single understanding" boiling down to "personal opinions on likes and dislikes when listening to or making music." Seriously, statements like can provide me with what surfing genius George Greenough described as "the innermost limits of pure fun." Wofly, there are several engineers who are part of the SS conglomerate (http://www.audiopoints.com/aboutUs.php), so maybe we can get one of them to chime in for a more exhaustive discussion? They typically don't waste time with these forums, but it might be worthwhile since this subject is treated with such scorn by many without backgrounds in mechanical engineering. Robert told me that back in the 60s and 70s, one of the primary prerequisites to getting a sound "engineering" gig was long hair. Was that part of your pedigree? :) As for the temperature thing, I have made personal observations to that extent. Maybe its a matter of simple ventilation, etc. Who knows. I know Robert did measurements. |
Appreciate the info and review of these racks. Vibration control is an important part of getting the most out of your system.
Thanks |
Just in case nobody else mentioned it already there is a slight, uh, difficulty with many racks and that is they actually amplify vibrations. It all depends on what the designer had in mind and hiw he was able to execute his design. As I am find of saying for the best sound the floor is often the best place to put stuff. |
Wolf_garcia, what has always perplexed me about engineers is their belief that we know everything about natural laws. But I've sat in civil engineering doctoral defenses and heard of "safety factors" to assure buildings will stand. I heard of engineers tracking what happened in the Challenger disaster and finding too many holes in the rings holding in the O rings caused them to break one after another with the O rings popping out.
We don't know everything. We know how to build building that mainly stand, circuits that mainly work, etc. You know you cannot explain why Tom's cello spike works so you think you are smart deriding his efforts, without having a clue about what you are talking about. And then you turn around and say you "anxiously await" vibration research.
Finally, if people hear differences where engineers say there can be none, should good engineers or scientists focus on why people hear those differences rather than saying there can be none? |
NO insult to engineers on here, esp. to Al who in no way resembles following tale.
I was at a history seminar once upon a time where a Navy Admiral came to talk about the roots of Naval Aviation .
One ex submarine guy asked the Admiral why the Navy recruited engineers heavily as pilots .
Reply was" because they are smart guys who understand what one needs to be a good carrier pilot, but lack the imagination to imagine crashing " .
I don't know if that's just a standard pilot joke, but he wasn't laughing . |
Tbg,
I couldn't have stated it better. If I'm understanding correctly, Starsound is giving him platforms to review. If so, that makes me sick. How could he possibly be impartial when reviewing platforms when he has already decided that they have no merit and are no better than sorbothane.
His ego-driven rants are really boring too. I hope that he discovers how good Starsound products are just so he'll have to eat...crow. |
I do not post much here, because of all of the "baby talk" that goes around. A side note : I know a guy who owns a very sophisticated sports car, and tweaks it till no end. I would ride in it, after something else he has done, and, he would ask me if I feel the difference in the ride ? ( I am the passenger ). The truth is, NO. He would visit me and, I would ask him if he hears the difference in my system, since the last time he was here, and he would say NO. Different hobbies, different senses, different interests. The point I am trying to make, without using sophisticated words, or scientific babble, is quite simple. Listening to music is a part of all of our lives. My sister, who enjoys listening to music as much as I do, listens to a $500. Bose radio, and, " she enjoys it, immensely ". I envy her. Being an audiophile ( spending money on equipment, and tweaking ), brings us closer to "the real thing", which, shows individuality amongst us, but shares our interests, senses, and of course, hobby. Hearing people bicker about right or wrong ? Enough of the BS already. This is a fun hobby, for me, anyway. I want a sound. Each of you want a sound. It IS ALL audible. Lets just enjoy, share, and learn. To all of you who bash "snake oil", well, good for you. The non like of horn based systems ( or box, or panel), well, good for you. Those who prefer tubes vs. ss, or the reverse, good for you. I would rather listen to music, through my system, than read these forums, particularly, the bantering. Just saying. I mean no harm to anyone. Just everyone, grow up. MrD |
07-25-15: Geoffkait
Just in case nobody else mentioned it already there is a slight, uh, difficulty with many racks and that is they actually amplify vibrations. It all depends on what the designer had in mind and hiw he was able to execute his design. As I am find of saying for the best sound the floor is often the best place to put stuff. I prefer to amplify my vibrations. I come from the "Spinal Tap" engineering school of thought. If I was examining gnat testicles using SEM, then maybe an active stand? |
You can make an active stand out of passive materials. Tom |
I prefer sapphire threads or if I'm pinched for money bungee cords. |
Passive is the new active? Do tell. |
I take issue with specific things said here using convoluted statements that are clearly nonsense (clearly…just carefully read some of this stuff), and have no beef with tweaks people find useful…I might have a comment or 2 about those tweaks though…heh...Regarding TBGs comments, I did NOT claim the spike didn't work as designed, I merely was having some fun with it (I know I'm supposed to practice mirth control but pretentious gasbags are simply such low hanging bullshit fruit it's impossible to not "skewer" this stuff) and still think it would make a great barbecue device. Roxy is apparently unable to detect sarcasm and parody, but I've found that many around here lack the humor gene, and she (he? both?) can rest assured that Star Sound is extremely unlikely to send me any samples as their offer included the word "may," and I'm not interested in disassembling my rack anyway. Since Agear is obsessed with my background, I will note that I did have long hair in the 60s and 70s, but I was a full time musician then and learned about sound by necessity and exposure to live and studio experiences…I eventually fell into small venue concert sound design and operation about 20 years ago which is a fun thing to do and has taught me a lot about what works, and I seem to be good at live sound mixing which is surprising in that extremely handsome elderly semi professional longboard surfers rarely do that sort of thing. I have never claimed to have "golden ears" (they're more "fleshy" toned) and recommend that people claiming they do should never be trusted. I have real issues with using this forum for unpaid advertising and shilling products, and feel Star Sound has crossed the line repeatedly both by their own ridiculous self promotion and tacit approval of what I think is an utterly over the top and bizarro rant by the OP…I'll go after that sort of thing every damn time, or whenever I feel like it. |
07-27-15: Wolf_garcia
Since Agear is obsessed with my background, I will note that I did have long hair in the 60s and 70s, but I was a full time musician then and learned about sound by necessity and exposure to live and studio experiences…I eventually fell into small venue concert sound design and operation about 20 years ago which is a fun thing to do and has taught me a lot about what works, and I seem to be good at live sound mixing which is surprising in that extremely handsome elderly semi professional longboard surfers rarely do that sort of thing. I have never claimed to have "golden ears" (they're more "fleshy" toned) and recommend that people claiming they do should never be trusted. I have real issues with using this forum for unpaid advertising and shilling products, and feel Star Sound has crossed the line repeatedly both by their own ridiculous self promotion and tacit approval of what I think is an utterly over the top and bizarro rant by the OP…I'll go after that sort of thing every damn time, or whenever I feel like it. So that probably means your hair cells are fried and you have tin ears like a lot of X-musicians I know. When was the last time you had them tested? How old r u? An audiophile friend of mine fraternizes with one of the guys from Kansas and his ears (by his own admission) are fried. Due to his tinnitus and overall damage, he is not even able to appreciate stereo reproduction (which may be a blessing in disguise given all the sourness of demeanor it generates on these forums....). Robert would indeed send the racks but questioned whether you were seriously interested since your focus (as a non-SS user) appears to be mudslinging (framed by brittle attempts at humor).... |
Wolf_garcia, I have always said, as have others, that sarcasm is often misunderstood as we have no body language to so judge your meaning. |
|
I didn't want to participate in this thread, but anyhow...
I used to have numerous Sistrum platforms in my system.
Under the speakers, amps, preamp., etc.
After reading glowing accounts of Sistrum owners here, I'm somewhat surprised nobody noticed how much they affect tonality of the system.
I can report from my own experience, and with absolute certainty, that Sistrum platforms do change an overall tonality of the component, they are under. Make it sounds brighter, probably emphasizing upper midrange, lower treble.
They are NOT neutral by any stretch of imagination.
This is not to say, they don't make positive contribution, and the change of tonality may be complimentary in some systems context.
But come on!!! This is a huge qualifier, all potential owners should be aware of.
Going back and reading some past Sistrum reviews, I have found at least one, when the owner compared it to other support systems, and came out with the same conclusion.
It's so obvious, it's really hard not to notice.
Since then I have tried many others (Herbies, Mapleshade, Symposium, Stillpoints, HRS, SRA), and still have some in the various parts of my present system
In the end, my personal impression is as follows:
All rigid designs, metal in particular, introduce their own resonant frequency, as part of "their own" sonic character, for the most part, making a sound of the component leaner and brighter.
Rigid wood structures (maple stands, platforms, etc) have a tendency to "dull and color" the sound.
The best designs by far, are the ones implementing sofisticated vibration dissipation technologies. There are different approaches to that.
Some notable examples are Stillpoints Ultra 5 and Ultra SS,
SRA, HRS (that I tried personally).The others like Critical Mass, Nordost, etc., i have no experience with.
They tend to be very effective in dissipating harmful vibrations, "cleaning up" the sound in the process, and at the same time imposing very small, if any sonic footprint of their own.
In my limited experience, SRA is probably the least "intrusive" one. Makes all the positive changes, w/o any detrimental side-effects, that I can notice.
Stillpoints are exceptionally good, but somewhat component and system dependent. |
Agear…if you didn't have your cranium so far up your wazoo you could respond to the gist of my comments rationally instead of lamely picking at me personally, although attempts at bullying are to be expected among the insecure. I have plenty of non "Kansas" older friends (60s and older) who are absolutely at the top of their games in sound engineering despite years of this stuff, working musicians included…mastering pros like Bob Ludwig (Mainer!) and Grammy winners like my former CT neighbor Elliot Shiner are hardly "probably" disabled, although the squealing of "whining strangers" might be too high pitched for them to enjoy, even if it's squeals of joy over the astonishing musical panacea of pointy bits . If I have tin ears like people in Kansas (!), it certainly hasn't stopped me from an ongoing successful musician and sound technician career, as well as my ability to really enjoy my hifi rig. There is an important difference between mudslinging and questioning the efficacy of silly statements about pointy things, and if my humor or sarcasm is missed by anyone…well…tough shit. |
07-28-15: Wolf_garcia
Agear…if you didn't have your cranium so far up your wazoo you could respond to the gist of my comments rationally instead of lamely picking at me personally, although attempts at bullying are to be expected among the insecure. I have plenty of non "Kansas" older friends (60s and older) who are absolutely at the top of their games in sound engineering despite years of this stuff, working musicians included…mastering pros like Bob Ludwig (Mainer!) and Grammy winners like my former CT neighbor Elliot Shiner are hardly "probably" disabled, although the squealing of "whining strangers" might be too high pitched for them to enjoy, even if it's squeals of joy over the astonishing musical panacea of pointy bits . If I have tin ears like people in Kansas (!), it certainly hasn't stopped me from an ongoing successful musician and sound technician career, as well as my ability to really enjoy my hifi rig. There is an important difference between mudslinging and questioning the efficacy of silly statements about pointy things, and if my humor or sarcasm is missed by anyone…well…tough shit. Call Robert and set up that demo..... |
07-28-15: Maril555
I didn't want to participate in this thread, but anyhow...
I used to have numerous Sistrum platforms in my system.
Under the speakers, amps, preamp., etc.
After reading glowing accounts of Sistrum owners here, I'm somewhat surprised nobody noticed how much they affect tonality of the system.
I can report from my own experience, and with absolute certainty, that Sistrum platforms do change an overall tonality of the component, they are under. Make it sounds brighter, probably emphasizing upper midrange, lower treble.
They are NOT neutral by any stretch of imagination.
This is not to say, they don't make positive contribution, and the change of tonality may be complimentary in some systems context.
But come on!!! This is a huge qualifier, all potential owners should be aware of.
Going back and reading some past Sistrum reviews, I have found at least one, when the owner compared it to other support systems, and came out with the same conclusion.
It's so obvious, it's really hard not to notice.
Since then I have tried many others (Herbies, Mapleshade, Symposium, Stillpoints, HRS, SRA), and still have some in the various parts of my present system
In the end, my personal impression is as follows:
All rigid designs, metal in particular, introduce their own resonant frequency, as part of "their own" sonic character, for the most part, making a sound of the component leaner and brighter.
Rigid wood structures (maple stands, platforms, etc) have a tendency to "dull and color" the sound.
The best designs by far, are the ones implementing sofisticated vibration dissipation technologies. There are different approaches to that.
Some notable examples are Stillpoints Ultra 5 and Ultra SS,
SRA, HRS (that I tried personally).The others like Critical Mass, Nordost, etc., i have no experience with.
They tend to be very effective in dissipating harmful vibrations, "cleaning up" the sound in the process, and at the same time imposing very small, if any sonic footprint of their own.
In my limited experience, SRA is probably the least "intrusive" one. Makes all the positive changes, w/o any detrimental side-effects, that I can notice.
Stillpoints are exceptionally good, but somewhat component and system dependent. I have never had SS make stuff brighter. I have read similar comments about Stillpoints (which I have owned as well). Much of the effects of grounding via steel and bass is subsonic (according to Robert at SS). What it can do in some circumstances is unmask a component's personality. If tone control is the goal, wood or rubber can be good as are softer sounding cabling. I have heard your speakers sound great and bad depending on the setup (tubes are the way IMO). I know Robert worked on some SS mods for them in the past ironically....:) I believe SS still has a demo policy, so opinions are honestly irrelevant (as they should be). |
Maril555,
I don't doubt your listening impressions via Star Sound products, you heard what you heard in your system. I'm unaware of any product regardless of review/reputation that has achieved 100% consensus/agreement, never happens. Too many system and listener variables to contend with.
There was a thread on this site in the past where Still Points and Star Sound were compared. Although the majority who tried both preferred SS, some preferred SP, THIS MAKES SENSE TO ME. I haven't experienced the tonal problems you encountered, different ears,room,componrnts etc.The best one can do is try a product for themselves and listen to it in their system. Outcomes will vary as expected.
Charles, |
Well said Charles.
Maril, what stands did you use and did they sit in your rack or the ground? |
Getting back to the OP's question, I would answer, "by staying out of the way."
IMO, the purposes of a rack are to provide a firm platform protecting equipment from external vibrations (I believe pointy footers under the rack help with this), to allow organization of components that facilitates short and unobstructed cable runs, to be sonically neutral with no ringing, self-noise or effect on system tonality and, in the best examples, to allow good ventilation around, above and beneath the components.
The Sound Anchors solid steel, sand-filled, rack and stands I use do an excellent job at all of the above. I use a Sound Anchors rack, amplifier stand, and custom made cradle bases for my speakers. All of these are anchored to a concrete floor using edenSound Bear Paws, which are massive, brass points. Several features of the Sound Anchors racks and stands include their heavy mass, the damping effect of the sand filling, adjustable bar supports which can be positioned directly beneath the footers/contact points of all sizes of components, ability to use after-market footers under components (e.g., Herbies, Stillpoints, etc.), the open air flow above, around and beneath components and the ability to customize widths, heights, and component opening sizes. They are made in the USA and are great people to do business with.
From what I see of the Star Sound platforms, they also seem to accomplish the above stated goals. I cannot comment on their effect (or not) on tonality. Being modular, they seem to be infinitely adjustable. I can see why people like them. I suspect the sonic differences between systems supported on a suspended wood floor and those supported on a concrete slab-on-grade are much greater than the sonic differences between Star Sound or Sound Anchors racks.
My only issue, alluded to in my original post, is the prevalent and excessive use of "scientific" explanations in this industry that create an illusion that only a certain product can provide the conditions necessary for great sound. The cable industry is the worst at promoting this (e.g., your cables will not sound good without using OCC wire, or silver wire, or dielectric-biasing, or a network box, or, or, or...). Audiophiles are such a tweaky, detailed group we seem to eat that stuff up and sometimes lose the forest for the trees. Maybe that is why I find Wolf's posts hilarious, because he doesn't take this stuff too seriously and finds humor in being irreverent to the BS attached to the industry. |
Mitch2, if I find a product valuable for the realism of my system, I usually seek some explanation. With regards to vibrations one reads a number of explanations. One entails what is a variation of springs under the devise whether they are actual springs or like poll magnets. Then another focus is on grounding the component to something much heavier. Points are part of this as the foot pounds per square inch increases with a point. I don't think there is much scientifically to say that these are really different other than having different resonant frequencies. But every device under ones component affects its sound.
For years I found very modest benefits with different devices, but with the Stillpoints Ultras and the Star Sound Rhythms there are big differences. I have my preferencs, but clearly there are stark differences. Perhaps there is good science underlying these designs and perhaps they are beneficial to only one aspect of the sound. I don't think science can lead us to one technique that clearly satisfies everyone's tastes in what they hear. |
Agear, Charles,
My rack is DIY with maple shelves, something like a Mapleshade.
I do use SRA Ohio stands under the Lamm amps and Tron Syren, that sits on the rack.
I'm getting SRA rack though.
As I mentioned previously, I've had my whole system on various SS stands at some point, so I have pretty good idea about the product.
So, let me ask you guys- do you really feel, that Sistrum stands are completely neutral and don't emphasize leading edge and don't accentuate some parts of the upper midrange/lower treble spectrum?
It clearly did so in my system.
It's not completely objectionable, and is noticable more on some recordings, and less on the others.
But it is there! And since I'm very sensitive to the issue, I've moved on to more 'benign" solutions.
Again, I can see somebody not to be affected that much, or to be willing to accept the compromise for whatever reason. And that is the whole different story.
What I'm having a problem with, is the fact, that people imply SS is devoid of any sonic signature. |
Maril555,
I would have a hard time saying that any audio product is devoid of some level of sonic signature. I do understand and appreciate your experience and impressions. All I can say is is that in regards to my system and individual components the Starsound products have been a significant plus across the board, tonality has been improved in my opinion not hindered. The natural tonal richness and harmonic overtones were revealed in their complexity and beauty. I have little tolerance for added brightness, I do seek improved openness and transparency and this is what I have found with these products. Sometimes equally experienced listeners will simply have different
outcomes and sonic impressions in their respective systems. If I heard the same brightness that you described, I would have quickly gotten rid of these products.
Regards,
Charles, |
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Maril, what stands did you use and when? SP4s, SP101s? SS products are ideally used on their own without any intervening construct. The products have evolved like everything else.
As for its "sonic signature," its a chicken and egg scenario to some degree. Is it the rack or the equipment? I find my 101s fairly "neutral." What changes mostly is speed, focus or coherency, and ambient data.
Again, if your system is bright or tipped up in character, then SS might not be the answer. For example, some speaker manufacturers rely on wood cabinet resonance for bass and tonality control, and a product that drains that vibration can cause the speaker to sound lean. That being said, I put a vintage pair of Pioneers I bought on Craigslist for $75 as a surrogate while I waited for my speakers to be completed. I put them on a set of "Apprentice stands" which are current generation and smoke the SP4s which I assume u used. I had a speaker designer over who said they sounded better than a lot of 10K speakers he has heard over the years. I have a SOTA system/room where everything change is glaring. Its not a soft, marshmallow sound from the 70s.....:) |
