How an audio rack can enhance your amp/pre

06-17-15: Mapman
I was listening to my daughters school orchestra play outdoors yesterday on a lovely summer morning.

Being the audio kook that I am, of course I was evaluating the sound including comparing to an indoor auditorium concert a couple weeks earlier.

I kept thinking this sounds quite nice but perhaps this would be the easiest orchestral concert to reproduce on a home hifi with good results in that the dynamics heard outdoors compared to indoors are reduced significantly.

It re-inforced to me what I already kinda knew, that the venue is perhaps by far the biggest factor in determining how things will sound.

06-16-15: Charles1dad
Tbg,
I have also heard tales of Agear's room as well, urban myth or reality? 3 years and still no pictures😊.
Charles

06-19-15: Tbg
Agear. Lampizitor and Pitcher! I think our tastes differ.

My, How you boys do wander.

I've been experimenting with 4 different Star Sound Platforms lately and it seems the bigger the better. The "Rhythm" with heavy base, 3 inch cones and large floor discs sounds Magical compared to any other devices tried under my speakers in 40 years.

07-08-15: Ebm
Try Symposium rack for best sound.

07-15-15: Roxy54
Agear,
What was the result of that comparison?

07-12-15: 1extreme
Some of the posts in response to the OP really suck.

When someone posts their impressions that they have personally perceived and they do so in an honest, sincere manner, it is wrong to call what they are experiencing "garbage". He was not miss-representing a technical fact he was stating his personal impressions. That is what this hobby is all about after all.

You who consider yourselves to be "audiophiles" should know better. This audio passion is almost all about personal impressions and preferences. Posters should feel free to post those personal impressions here on this site without derision.

07-16-15: Wolf_garcia
NUTS…for "the group" (!) excepting Ralph who gets things, I offer this simple possible clarification: I use MY OWN EARS for my ultimate opinions on sound (yeah I know..astonishing), and admit I've never met a Charlotte based engineer…but I've met Charlotte…adorable…and she said, "Agear keeps dragging people to his house to shout LOOK AT MY RACK!" at them, and then drops their names like a used surgical glove. If anybody measures "the fruits of pointy interventions" (the title of my next epic and slightly tawdry poem) please don't ruin my nap with the results. I'm sensitive...

07-16-15: Dgarretson
I wouldn't conflate golden ears with thin experience in racks and footers. And this is after all a FORUM, not Diogenes the Cynic with lamp and a coronation of one honest man. The thread has becomes thread-bare for lack of comparisons between the admittedly small number of available "engineered" racks solutions. Hopefully more experiences will arrive in time.

07-22-15: Schubert
Atmasphere, I assume you know this, but if not--- The acoustic do-over on MAC's Meirs concert hall has made as good a 350 seat space as you will hear.

07-17-15: Theaudiotweak
Bdp24,
Like a visual concoction of Dali the artist not the speaker. Some of these materials and shapes have been exciting at first but over a short period of time prove troubling for mind and body. Always into trying new things. I almost grew up in the 60's. Tom, Star Sound Technologies.

07-18-15: Geoffkait
Wahoo wah! Go Cavs! When I went to UVa Scott stadium was the world's largest outdoor bar.

07-28-15: Maril555
I didn't want to participate in this thread, but anyhow...
I used to have numerous Sistrum platforms in my system.
Under the speakers, amps, preamp., etc.
After reading glowing accounts of Sistrum owners here, I'm somewhat surprised nobody noticed how much they affect tonality of the system.
I can report from my own experience, and with absolute certainty, that Sistrum platforms do change an overall tonality of the component, they are under. Make it sounds brighter, probably emphasizing upper midrange, lower treble.
They are NOT neutral by any stretch of imagination.
This is not to say, they don't make positive contribution, and the change of tonality may be complimentary in some systems context.
But come on!!! This is a huge qualifier, all potential owners should be aware of.
Going back and reading some past Sistrum reviews, I have found at least one, when the owner compared it to other support systems, and came out with the same conclusion.
It's so obvious, it's really hard not to notice.
Since then I have tried many others (Herbies, Mapleshade, Symposium, Stillpoints, HRS, SRA), and still have some in the various parts of my present system
In the end, my personal impression is as follows:
All rigid designs, metal in particular, introduce their own resonant frequency, as part of "their own" sonic character, for the most part, making a sound of the component leaner and brighter.
Rigid wood structures (maple stands, platforms, etc) have a tendency to "dull and color" the sound.
The best designs by far, are the ones implementing sofisticated vibration dissipation technologies. There are different approaches to that.
Some notable examples are Stillpoints Ultra 5 and Ultra SS,
SRA, HRS (that I tried personally).The others like Critical Mass, Nordost, etc., i have no experience with.
They tend to be very effective in dissipating harmful vibrations, "cleaning up" the sound in the process, and at the same time imposing very small, if any sonic footprint of their own.
In my limited experience, SRA is probably the least "intrusive" one. Makes all the positive changes, w/o any detrimental side-effects, that I can notice.
Stillpoints are exceptionally good, but somewhat component and system dependent.

07-20-15: Atmosphere

Geoff, the key is to teleport the mechanical energy away from the vibrating object or at a minimum trick the mind into believing it has happened.....:)

We can easily see the effects of improper setup relating to the use of points (or lack thereof) in our cutting lathe (you can see the extra vibration in the grooves via the microscope) so I know for a fact that the above statement is incorrect.

07-20-15: Bdp24
Long hair on a male is not a hippie aesthetic, it's a Native American one. I represent that remark ;-).

07-23-15: Atmasphere
however we do Not agree with your comment “proven effective for the past 6 decades”. If you are implying ‘sixty years’ of vibration management in audio;

To the best of our knowledge:

Audio Points was the second ever conical shaped product in the audio marketplace and began selling in 1988. Tip Toes was the first and began selling in late 1987. In the mid 1990’s audio racking was still largely referred to as furniture. We can trace the first absorption stands using sand, lead and rubber based systems from companies such as Zoethecus and Bright Star along with the first mechanical grounding racks from RoomTune and Sound Anchors to the early 90’s. The Sistrum Platforms™ release was in 2000 and was the first audio racking system marketed bearing the name recognition as a “platform”.

You might want to take a look at my prior posts. As I mentioned in them, my Scully LP mastering lathe employs a heavy steel table which has adjustable points built into its feet. It was made in the late 1940s. Upon the table is a special vibration-damping platform, on which the lathe itself resides. The lathe has three feet, all quite pointed and adjustable which engage cups built into the platform.

So this use of points precedes the Mod Squad by about 3 decades and change.

It is incorrect to say you can't get rid of vibration. A proper vibration damping system translates vibration into heat. I use Ultra Resolution Technologies platforms which were developed by Warren Gehl (currently at ARC; he also designed a very effective platter pad for damping resonance in LPs; although very effective neither product is still in production) and they have proven quite effective. Platforms are also used beneath powerful microscopes for the same purpose and are shown to be quite effective- so much so that some audiophiles have used the same platforms in their home systems.

07-24-15: Wolf_garcia
"Star Sound’s adaptation is to transfer resonance at high-speed via conductive pathways away from the source of vibration keeping everything related to and the signal in constant motion." Hmmm…a line certainly worthy of any Faith Based Audio mythology discussion as it makes exactly ZERO sense…what also mystifies me is that there is any connection between claims of lowering the temperature of amps and providing profound tempo improvement using pointy things stuck to racks (!), and damping unwanted vibration in lathes and microscopes (necessary), except as it applies to the History of Damping. I do think the cello spike could make a great barbecue skewer though…and has the added benefit of making burnt food sound better. Underwater Earthquake Flight Research notwithstanding, I anxiously await the results of "further research" into the science of how vibration control (read my paper, "Microscopes and Subwoofers, a Paradox in Waiting"…Merkel Press $2.95) yields a "common single understanding" boiling down to "personal opinions on likes and dislikes when listening to or making music." Seriously, statements like can provide me with what surfing genius George Greenough described as "the innermost limits of pure fun."

07-25-15: Geoffkait
Just in case nobody else mentioned it already there is a slight, uh, difficulty with many racks and that is they actually amplify vibrations. It all depends on what the designer had in mind and hiw he was able to execute his design. As I am find of saying for the best sound the floor is often the best place to put stuff.

07-29-15: Maril555
If I remember correctly, I had SP-101s under the speakers and power amps, and SP-3s under preamp, CDP
Maril555 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

07-29-15: Maril555
If I do understand and remember the principle of the SS design correctly (as explained by Robert himself), that's how it works.
The stand rigidly couples to the component it's supporting, and transfer it's vibration into itself, sothe stand vibrates and then dissipates that energy.
Since the stand vibrates itself, and it surely does- Robert told me and I experienced that myself, you can actually feel it's vibrating as the speaker plays loud, bass- heavy passages. The stand does have it's own resonant frequency, as absolutely everything does, so it's very likely, thta it transfers that own residual (it cannot dissipate a 100% of it) resonant frequency back into the component, therefore adding that reonant frequency to the sound made by the component itself.
What I feel is, that a metal stand resonant frequency is audible, as the leading edge and upper midrange emphasis.
I belive, devices such as Stillpoints Ultra and SRA are more effective in dissipating larger portion of the equipment- generated vibrations into heat, or maybe their own resonant frequency is less intrusive and more sympathetic", than the Sistrum one.
Someone smart said something to the effect, that "all support systems sound, as they look-"metal sounds "metallic" and wood "soft", or something like that. I find that statement to be correct

07-29-15: Geoffkait
Hey, what happened to the vibration coming up from the floor? That's a much bigger problem than anything the component can dish out. And that what the rigid rack amplifies. Hel-looo!

07-30-15: Maril555
Of course these companies have quite different designs. It is audibly evident.
That is what I was trying to convey in my original post.
Owners claim neutral sound of both designs, but in practice, they clearly "sound" different.

The primary damping material is a “very sensitive thermal reactive copolymer,” according to Tellekamp, who I suddenly imagined wearing a white lab coat. He didn’t scratch his chin and look sideways at me when he said it, but he could have. He went on, “This patented material has the ability to change darometer --- its hardness and softness --- very rapidly.”

I looked rapidly startled, and Kevin pounced. “Think of Jell-O as it moves from a liquid to a solid --- it’s the same idea.” He checked to see how I was taking it. Pretty well, actually. “The liquid state is only possible in an air-free environment. Air contains water, of course, which would act like a hardener and make our damping compounds appear --- and feel --- like foam.

I looked startled again, so Tellekamp went in for the kill: “Yup, we assemble our stands under a nitrogen blanket --- air free --- so all the stands are air free & airtight.”

Stillpoints Technology
systems are about resonance
control and low mass, as mass means energy storage and that is anathema
to them.

The Ultra appears to have two parts: the main cylindrical structure and a loose-fitting “cap” on the end. It is actually composed of ten internal components that form an elaborate vibration-dissipation system. The internal structure includes tiny ceramic bearings that dissipate micro-vibrations. The Ultra is a two-way device, meaning that it dissipates vibration entering from either direction (from the floor or from the component resting on the Ultra). Moreover, there is no vertical path for vibration through the Ultra. This device is the highest implementation of Stillpoints’ technology, which is reflected in the price—$900 for a set of four. An aluminum version, identical in every way except for the metal, is $640 for a set of four. According to Stillpoints, stainless-steel more quickly dissipates vibrational energy.

ive-Vibe Technology™ is based on the science of resonance energy transfer via a high-speed calculated conductive pathway to earth's ground maintaining vibrations a state of constant motion and creating a more efficient result.

2. The technical term applied to the study of vibration in High End Audio is "Isolation" which is one of many methods of treating the ill effects of signal degradation caused from vibration.The category topic of Isolation fails to differentiate there are other or more favorable applications and terminologies dealing in vibration management.

Isolate - To prevent a circuit or device from interacting with another or with an outside stimulus.

If we isolate vibration in any instrument we restrict operational efficiency and functionality in performance.

Why invest in a costly component or loudspeaker if the intention is to smother its sonic capability?

It is our opinion that the Audio Community should change this miss represented category title and begin calling it Vibration Management. One can never totally isolate or control vibration but there are sciences that can 'Manage' it.

The information and white papers provided here is the backbone of our technology and success and yes we have confidence in a completely opposite approach to the long time beliefs, understandings and technical methodologies applied to vibration management in audio.

It's new...It's live...and yes it vibrates too. We would not have it any other way hence the name Live-Vibe Technology dictates our passion.

07-30-15: Hdm

Some interesting reading on one of the SRA products here:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=38482

08-01-15: Bodhi
@Theaudiotweak, The Big Bang vs Stillpoints = no contest. Putting the breaks on vibration is what they do. That's ALL they do! (sorry, Terminator moment). The bottom line: It may get hot in the kitchen, but these devices don't break a sweat. Come to think of it, Stillpoints offer great high end 'bang for the buck'!

08-01-15: Bodhi
Cheers Agear, though I don't think any more or less wise than most folk here. I've been thinking of posting a thread about my experience with stillpoints, so I might post a separate thread in the tweaks section in the next day or two.

08-04-15: P59teitel
Well I just discovered palm trees could be very beneficial to my system's sound, so why not Jerusalem almonds?

08-04-15: P59teitel

What if I told you that while the palm trees are a newly-introduced variable, the adult beverage is a constant!

08-05-15: Geoffkait
theaudiotweak, you are half right. You must isolate the component using mass on spring or negative stiffness or whatever iso technique AND spike the component to the iso device AND spike the iso device to the floor. and the spikes must be points down. Now, I'm not saying spikes are not better than nothing. but spikes simply don't address very low frequency structureborne vibration. period.