Wolf_garcia – I have to step in here:
Scotty333 joined Audiogon in 2000 and is now named Wisper. He like many listeners had to change their moniker when Audiogon modified their profile a few years back hence locking out a few veteran members.
Wisper telephoned us stating he wanted to write a review on the Rhythm Platforms. Any company would be "nuts" to refuse that offer considering his depth in knowledge, product ownership over time and years of listening experiences so you might wish to refrain from further attacks on individuals.
On a more personal note:
I spent many years as an FOH sound engineer, worked with a host of reinforcement providers, did stints in recording studios, cut half speed masters for vinyl, highly used and recommended Sorbothane® and foams and was contracted by very successful musicians and am now blessed to be associated with a few “bespectacled geeks”.
That said I consider myself as qualified and experienced as anyone to address your insults.
You struck a nerve insulting our people but rather than airing opinions here in public, I would greatly appreciate a phone call to discuss any further differences in opinions on our crew and clients.
With your background in professional music I am sure we will get along just fine. Who knows, Star Sound may send you a sample of our product for an audition where you could position our Platforms under guitar amps and/or studio gear as well.
Your feedback can be forwarded directly to me and would be very welcomed versus airing insults prompting more confrontations here on AudioGon. In addition, once you hear our systems, no one will question your reporting whether the results are positive or negative.
Please feel free to take us up on our offer as a listening test could very easily change your current opinion.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC
877-668-4332 |
Hello TheKong,
In answer to your question on mechanical diodes (7-15-15)
A diode allows current to travel in only one direction. A mechanical diode allows gear rotation in one direction to be transmitted through the system.
Most believe “theoretically” that a mechanical diode related to vibration and resonance transfer processes moves energy in one direction.
Our opinions are that this theoretical process is ‘Not Possible’.
The geometry and shape of the Audio Points indeed provide a high-speed conductive pathway for energy to flow in one direction towards earth but heavily relies on the laws of physics, motion and the all important gravity to keep the majority of resonance flowing towards ground. ‘Ground’ is noted as the greater mass or energy sink available in the listening room such as floors, structural walls and ceiling grids.
Despite all the known sciences listed above, energy can still and does flow upward via conductive metals or other materials such as woods and acrylics, etc forming the conduit. Our simple analogy: if you remove the cap off a fire hydrant releasing the flow of water and take your fist - pushing it in against the flow is attainable though it may take a stronger person to accomplish this, it can be done. Energy movement related to an Audio Point™ can also move upward although the majority flows in downward trajectory towards mother earth based on the laws of science as we understand them.
There are some ‘isolationists’ who believe and teach that floor born energy travels up an equipment rack and poisons the equipment and yes we agree ‘in theory’. Even with geometry and science behind the Sistrum Platforms moving energy towards ground; minor amounts of energy can still travel in the opposite direction. The same holds true when using just Audio Points. Our opinion is this minimal trace of energy has no audible effect on the sonic performance.
Live-Vibe Technology™ is based on energy traveling everywhere, never ending and remaining in constant motion. Energy is a constant variable that cannot be destroyed. When related to musical reproduction, energy is generated from electro-mechanical and acoustic means, it establishes laminar flows and travels on structural surfaces (walls, floors and ceilings), it builds and propagates on all smooth surfaces, it is attracted to conductive metals, it dissipates as heat, it diffuses when two of the same frequencies collide, and the list goes on... “Energy caused from vibration is boundless”.
That said; defining a newfound approach to vibration management is extremely difficult at best. We choose to participate in an area of audio reproduction where little is known, little is understood, little is written and opinions and theories abound. We choose to participate in an unknown variable.
The fact that the High-End Audio Industry elects to name, classify and describe vibration management in one word - “isolation”, proves beyond any doubt the public is left on their own to form their own understanding. The term “Isolation” is only a small part, a categorical approach, a single methodology of which there are many in attempting to manage vibration. The term isolation easily relates and forms up an understanding especially to the novice. We know this to be true as we too began our careers under the same influences.
Floating in air, free from vibration, anti-vibration footers and racks, stop vibration, vibration should be destroyed, eliminate vibration, et ALL are results born from this inaccurate name provided us by our forefathers, mostly industry journalists and not people of science.
What would we hear or better yet, what would you be listening to without vibration?
Star Sound’s atypical approach to managing the negative effects caused from vibration by transferring resonant energy to ground via high-speed conductive pathways is but one part of the overall defining Live-Vibe Technology™.
Our opinion is that each unique piece of equipment has a preeminent operating efficiency.
We know every product is made differently. Materials, mass, design, build structure, etc - for all products are entirely different from one another. No two are the same. The only thing in common with all these variables is that every product has a set of frequencies where the utmost in performance (optimum operational efficiency) is attained while functioning in an ever changing vibrating environment.
Unfortunately we also realize that no matter what tests are performed in a laboratory, when the product is placed into a different environment these operational frequencies and results will also change.
How does one locate that state of optimum performance since every product is unique and every environment is different?
Our opinion is to let the product vibrate all to its own. While in a state of constant motion the parts and chassis will self adjust to optimum provided the properties of detrimental Coulomb friction which are formed from vibration are provided a high speed exit away from the source.
Let it vibrate! The equipment, room foundation, racking, walls, floors and ceilings are going to vibrate regardless. Listening to music is a dynamic experience where everything involved in reproduction or live performances is going to vibrate; even our own diaphragms located inside our heads - vibrate.
TheKong, thank you for another great question.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
Hello Atmasphere,
In our opinion, you have taken our statements out of context. Please understand our comments here with regards to Live Vibe Technology™ and the information regarding Star Sound products is assumed that our technology is in place inside the equipment, below the equipment, adapted to musical instruments and/or building structural frameworks.
Therefore in response to your information listed on 07-20-15 we wish to assert the following:
Energy caused from vibration cannot be eliminated - physics 101.
“The technology of points and vibration absorption materials is not going to go away” - and we agree. Live-Vibe Technology uses Audio Points™ as the initial point of contact with equipment and flooring however we do not employ absorption materials in our innovations other than brass and steel. Brasses and steels too have damping (absorptive) factors.
“A proper stand and platform design can be proven effective” - and we totally concur however we do Not agree with your comment “proven effective for the past 6 decades”. If you are implying ‘sixty years’ of vibration management in audio;
To the best of our knowledge:
Audio Points was the second ever conical shaped product in the audio marketplace and began selling in 1988. Tip Toes was the first and began selling in late 1987. In the mid 1990’s audio racking was still largely referred to as furniture. We can trace the first absorption stands using sand, lead and rubber based systems from companies such as Zoethecus and Bright Star along with the first mechanical grounding racks from RoomTune and Sound Anchors to the early 90’s. The Sistrum Platforms™ release was in 2000 and was the first audio racking system marketed bearing the name recognition as a “platform”.
My father was an audiophile. As a teenager I spent a lot of time with him at Bell Laboratories whose engineers were also avid audiophiles. They took Fisher amplifiers to another level of performance , built their own electronics designs, modified the best Garrard had to offer, constructed their own speaker systems, tuned up Fisher reverb tanks for stereo systems but never did they mention or quantify anything on vibration control. This was the 60’s.
In the early 70’s Mr. Dick Boak of the C.F.Martin & Company (guitars) built a couple equipment racks out of exotic woods for a few friends. We knew our gear sounded a bit better on the more rigid build and different woods but never understood why and could not come up with any information or knew anything about vibration control as a topic for increasing equipment performance. I have owned McIntosh, Dynaco, Acoustic Research, and Sansui during the same time period and could not locate any mentions of vibration control in any of their owner’s manuals.
Employed as a sound engineer and spending over a dozen years in the music business - vibration was only ever discussed and/or addressed in recording studios as a minor topic when studying acoustic surroundings, microphone stands and record mastering but again it was never perceived as a principle science for improving sound quality.
During Star Sound’s inception period some sixteen years ago, our group of engineers spent hours researching vibration control in consumer audio and professional sound industries and found very little information. Agreed historically there were many uses and approaches to controlling vibration outside the audio sector but again very little written, little understood in what has become a highly subjective and sensitive subject here on AudioGon.
Our primary purpose participating in this forum is to learn, gather knowledge, provide information but more importantly listen to people who experiment in sound. We cannot afford the time for debates targeting “ours is better than theirs” arguments. Star Sound is presenting a newfound technical approach to vibration management and admits we do not have all the answers.
Our technology has gone full cycle in audio related fields. We have listener accepted products and prototypes in use - both inside and underneath electronics and loudspeakers, musical instruments and structural sound room environments. Live-Vibe Technology™ is currently undergoing third party testing by a licensed UL® approved laboratory in order to quantify this proprietary vibration management science. Additional acoustic testing will be provided by two privately owned recording studios adding more data to compare with the laboratory profiles.
In closing Atmasphere, we have never stated vibration does not make a difference in performance so please do not turn around and run in the other direction. We have products available that will greatly improve the sound of your string bass as well. You are always welcome to telephone us anytime.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
Hello Atmasphere,
Sorry for missing your previous thread information on the cutting lathe and hopefully we stand corrected.
Are you sure the cones were not used as a truer means of leveling and stability requirements or were actually designed for vibration management purposes? It is long recognized that cones positioned into a cup provides a more efficient means for restricting slippage and movement.
We would really appreciate it if you could refer us to any information where Scully quantifies this system was designed as a method of vibration management. This would be the first documentation we have ever come across pre 60’s related to our studies.
Our answer to your previous writing with regards to vibration was ‘specific’ in that you cannot “eliminate” vibration. However your new statement is correct with regards to “getting rid of vibration” by converting the vibration into heat. Conversion through multilayered damping is a well applied methodology but we find those techniques to be a much slower process in comparison to our approach.
Star Sound’s adaptation is to transfer resonance at high-speed via conductive pathways away from the source of vibration keeping everything related to and the signal in constant motion. The earliest research we found on Resonance Energy Transfer was published in the IBM Journal dated 1968 titled - The Resonistor - A Frequency Selective Device Utilizing the Mechanical Resonance of a Silicon Substrate by R. J. Wilfinger, P. H. Bardell and D. S. Chhabra.
Regards to the microscope isolation tables, Bell Engineers improved the techniques of stabilizing electron microscopes during the development of the world’s first transistor production line implemented by Western Electric, Allentown PA in 1951.I know this statement to be accurate as it was a principal project my father participated in. We understand and definitely relate to why isolation tables were developed but have issues with their applications in audio reproduction where sub-harmonic frequencies and chassis micro motion play an extremely small role related to musical instruments and the audible range of human hearing.
The only comparisons in performance we have obtained related to these devices used in audio was provided by Norm Luttbeg who recently published a review on the Rhythm Platform for StereoTimes Magazine and Ddraudt a well experienced audiophile here on AudioGon. I am sure you can contact both of them for their opinions.
We have discovered situations where a science and product developed for minimizing vibration dedicated to other purposes such as microscopes, heavy machinery, underwater or flight research or building foundations related to earthquakes generally does not provide sonic results that one might imagine when applied in conjunction with audio equipment and listening environments.
It has become obvious to us that there is a great deal of information and technology yet to be discovered and understood linking the various sciences of vibration control to a common single understanding especially when it boils down to personal opinions on likes and dislikes when listening to or making music.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
In the 90’s when wood furniture stands and shelves transcended into equipment racks designed to control vibration, the audio world began to form methods of understanding how additional materials will alter performance in sound reproduction and have become the gospel for treating vibration in audio. These learning curves, most of which were adopted from other scientific and practiced applications of vibration control were largely borrowed from other industries.
Every equipment racking company in audio has theories as to how their products perform. Not one of them including Star Sound has produced any type of third party testing. There is no standard methodology recognized for testing products for comparisons sake.
Every equipment rack at one point or another does some of the same things attempting to manage vibration. Some employ absorbents such as sand, lead, Sorbothane® or types of rubber and foams used as damping materials where some use various stones, acrylics, others use carbon polymers and woods that have various effects on performance but the vast majority of racking has ‘one’ material in common with each other and that is metals.
Star Sound products and designs employ metals only. A Sistrum single shelf is a speaker, amplifier, component platform. The rest of the industry uses multiple combinations of various other materials to achieve their product and performance but are left with a technical approach that cannot service all equipment profiles.
What some readers may be missing is steel and brass also damp energy as each metal and alloy has specific damping factors based on their chemical makeup (damping charts are easy to research). Steel and brass also provide diffusion and phase cancellation where energy is converted into heat so we are not much different than other product in the marketplace other than we employ a mechanical grounding device designed to vibrate in a sonic environment.
We are not focused on where vibration comes from or how much vibration is created or what types of vibration disrupt product operational efficiency that negatively affects components, speakers or listening environments sonic. Star Sound products become infused as part of the overall vibration formula – joined at the hip.
In answer to the questions listed below: Star Sound comments posted here are with regards to Live Vibe Technology™ is assumed that our technology is in place inside the equipment, below the equipment, adapted to musical instruments and/or building structural frameworks.
It is also assumed that all applications and statements are determined in a musical reproduction environment. Earthquakes, locomotives, 4 Hz frequencies, earth’s crust rotations, etc related to other sciences are beyond our studies and research criterion. Star Sound limits in house testing to audio/video equipment and the sound room relative to human hearing capability.
Question: “Hey, what happened to the vibration coming up from the floor? That's a much bigger problem than anything the component can dish out. And that what the rigid rack amplifies. Hel-looo!”
Answer: With our technology implied, energy formed from vibration coming from the air, flooring, walls, and ceilings, mechanical, electromechanical or acoustic means is not an issue. We approach managing vibration as a single concept versus categorically analyzing it coming from one location or one form or one direction at a time.
We experimented with springs many years ago and determined a soft float design establishes greater amplitudes of lateral motion causing changes in speed and decay. When applied in combination with steel shelving, additional materials were required to maximize the effort as the direct instrument chassis contact area was too linear. The formula became extremely complex and the sonic results varied due to various types of equipment’s chassis mass. Rather than build products specific to weight restraints or choosing various springs for each type of component, this highly functional concept was placed aside.
The Sistrum rod assemblies and Audio Points provided a much higher speed of energy flow with no weight restrictions.
Our reply to the latter portion of this question is how can one provide proof that a Sistrum Platform ‘amplifies’ vibration from the flooring or any other source for that matter? We understand where ‘rack chatter’ originates when using wood blocks and shelving as vibrating wood produces an audible range of frequencies hence the comparisons in the sound between MDF, maple and other exotics are discussed often on this forum but having a bit of trouble in hearing noise amplified by heavy dense steel.
Question: “The stand does have it's own resonant frequency, as absolutely everything does, so it's very likely, that it transfers that own residual (it cannot dissipate a 100% of it) resonant frequency back into the component, therefore adding that resonant frequency to the sound made by the component itself.”
Answer: Yes, every form of racking design no matter what materials and processes are employed will do this. In our opinion - based on physics, laws of motion, and gravity in combination with the phenomena known as Coulomb friction the geometry of the Sistrum design maintains the majority of resonance flow towards ground. Please review previous information with analogy on our response here, dated 7-18-15 (water flow and fire hydrant).
It is also the opinion of the company that the minute amount of energy ‘feeding back into the equipment’ will not affect the sonic merit of the equipment nor infuse a hardness in sonic or ‘metallic sound’ when placed atop a Platform. The resonant frequency of the Sistrum Platforms is well above and below human hearing while functioning in a listening environment. Naturally if you hold up a metal shelf and whack it with a hammer there is quite an audible frequency ring and that will vary depending on the material used to make up the hammerhead but that situation and self generated frequency does not relate to a listening room.
We would never argue that you did not experience total satisfaction from the Sistrum performance. I began my career with this company discussing systems with hundreds of listeners and audiophiles having attained tremendous amounts of knowledge over the years. I also learned through this experience there were other variables related to system synergy such as audio components, cables mix, power and distribution, mirrors, picture frames, bookcases, lamps, rugs, curtains, windows, speaker placements, rooms, etc., creating problems that were first realized in tandem with our products.
Star Sound averages two refunds per annum for dissatisfaction in performance. With sales well into the thousands of units, we remain highly motivated by public response and acceptance. We also fully and openly admit there are unknowns that exist within our understanding and that of our systems performance. In 1999 we were the first company providing a trial period with refunds for every product ever sold. To the best of our knowledge in 2015 Star Sound the first company paying for third party testing in order to evolve the science.
Over time we have improved greatly upon the technology and overall sonic performance as demonstrated with the newer Sistrum Apprentice and Rhythm Platforms compared to the fifteen year older original Platforms and would jump at the chance to possibly get our second generation products back into your system for an audition.
Thank you for a providing good questions and participating in this thread.
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
Hello TheKong,
In reply to your many qualified questions about Star Sound claims as to the function and scientific proof of their technology (questions listed above on 06-09/2015):
The Audio Points™ were first marketed in 1989 representing the second of two mechanical grounding products offered in High-End Audio, TipToes was the first manufacturer in what is now commonly referred to as the accessory marketplace.
Star Sound equipment racking products are now fifteen years young and are ever evolving.
A research test involving public consumption of our products was implemented in 2003. We adapted the technology inside electronics and loudspeakers chassis focused on the smallest of electronic parts such as resistors and transistors. A limited quantity of these products were sold under the Harmonic Precision™ name brand. The test was successful in that it provided further proof the technology has multiple applications.
We recently placed the technology into structural walls, flooring and ceiling grids which represents one of our finest innovative achievements titled The Energy Room™.
Beginning in 2000 a group of six musical instruments were targeted as a destination for the technology. It took quite some time before releasing the initial offering involving the cello and upright bass. The Tone Acoustics Brass EndPin™ began selling in 2014 and is being accepted and played by some of the finest musicians in music today.
This historical information is submitted as physical evidence supporting our core theories on how the technology functions. It validates, via the end user, that Live-Vibe Technology™ is highly functional, has worked in multiple applications related to the recording and playback sciences and continues to expand gaining public acceptance on all fronts.
Regards to your request for scientific proof:
The examples of your aforementioned industrial ‘anti-vibration’ companies as noted in your questionnaire are associated and focused more on the studies and applications of “isolation” whereas our approach to vibration management is an entirely different and/or an opposite methodology.
The majority of testing and results displayed on their websites are 100% controlled and published by the same company selling their respective products. It is common to see this type of product testing in the commercial marketplace as well as the Audio Industry and has long been accepted as scientific proof the product works.
Currently there are no charts or graphs depicting acoustic or mechanical measurements displayed on the Star Sound website based on in-house ‘self’ generated testing. We elect not to present this type of data simply because in the highly subjective world of High-End Audio, it is well known to some manufacturers that self proclaimed results can be presumed by many as extreme bias, a marketing tool to increase sales or add more confusion to an already ‘little known and understood’ science.
We have developed this new technology based on the theories and successes originating from a small group of dedicated, highly educated and successful engineers with vision and a tremendous amount of feedback from the end users of our products.
Live-Vibe Technology™ is currently undergoing third party testing by a licensed UL® approved laboratory in order to quantify this proprietary vibration management science. This testing will offer an objective analysis of this technology as it relates to all types of electronic and acoustic equipment, as well as musical instruments used in the recording, playback, and live performance settings. Additional acoustic testing will be provided by two privately owned recording studios providing additional data to compare with the laboratory profiles.
In closing:
Live-Vibe Technology is a new atypical approach to vibration management. It is currently supported by a small research and development company titled Star Sound Technologies with the focus on audio and video reproduction, sound environments and musical instruments.
Our goal is to become the the first company in all of audio whose opinions and theories related to vibration management evolve into a more highly functional and diverse science.
Please feel free to telephone us and we will be happy to chat and answer all of your questions.
TheKong, We thank you for your time, quality questions and interest.
As always - Good Listening!
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
