The room will blow your mind. You are welcome to fly to Charlotte and hear mine if you like.
Why Oregon? Did you grow up there? My younger brother lived in Portland for many years, and my family would vacation on the coast, etc. What version of Scandinavian were your forefathers? Outside of MN (where I lived for over 10 years), there are lots of Scandinavian folk in the pacific northwest...particularly Washington state....but mostly Norwegian (of which I am 25%) |
I was listening to my daughters school orchestra play outdoors yesterday on a lovely summer morning.
Being the audio kook that I am, of course I was evaluating the sound including comparing to an indoor auditorium concert a couple weeks earlier.
I kept thinking this sounds quite nice but perhaps this would be the easiest orchestral concert to reproduce on a home hifi with good results in that the dynamics heard outdoors compared to indoors are reduced significantly.
It re-inforced to me what I already kinda knew, that the venue is perhaps by far the biggest factor in determining how things will sound. |
06-17-15: Mapman
I was listening to my daughters school orchestra play outdoors yesterday on a lovely summer morning.
Being the audio kook that I am, of course I was evaluating the sound including comparing to an indoor auditorium concert a couple weeks earlier.
I kept thinking this sounds quite nice but perhaps this would be the easiest orchestral concert to reproduce on a home hifi with good results in that the dynamics heard outdoors compared to indoors are reduced significantly.
It re-inforced to me what I already kinda knew, that the venue is perhaps by far the biggest factor in determining how things will sound. Agree 100% |
Agear. Lampizitor and Pitcher! I think our tastes differ. |
06-19-15: Tbg
Agear. Lampizitor and Pitcher! I think our tastes differ. Clearly. BMC would not be my find choice. Norman, you have not had the 7 or GG in your rig although I understand you wanted to hear one. If you want digital to approach your TT, it would be worth a spin. As for Dale, show settings are worthless. |
My, How you boys do wander.
I've been experimenting with 4 different Star Sound Platforms lately and it seems the bigger the better. The "Rhythm" with heavy base, 3 inch cones and large floor discs sounds Magical compared to any other devices tried under my speakers in 40 years. |
My, How you boys do wander. Its called intra-thread banter Ddraudt. You've never encountered it before? I've been experimenting with 4 different Star Sound Platforms lately and it seems the bigger the better. The "Rhythm" with heavy base, 3 inch cones and large floor discs sounds Magical compared to any other devices tried under my speakers in 40 years. Bigger is indeed better..... |
Put Rhythm Platforms under my speakers again yesterday and WOW!
they are magical. I had tried the apprentice and they were a big improvement over what I had been using. tried the Apprentice XL and, at twice the mass, they were better, more detail and better image. Going back to the Rhythm's was sheer pleasure. Jaw dropping image! Mesmerizing involvement and intimacy!
I see many more Rhythm racks in my system soon.
Cheers D |
Ddraudt, coming on Wednesday? |
Try Symposium rack for best sound. |
07-08-15: Ebm
Try Symposium rack for best sound. Only after a side by side comparison with a similarly priced Starsound product.... |
A/B Racks when will that happen???? |
Easy to A/B platforms ...suggested many times over many years to many reviewers. Tom |
I like this thread, because, some of us hear differences when tweaking, and some bash it as snake oil. I am on the side, that every tweak I have done, to my systems, and others ( and it has been a lot in over 45 years ), has made a sonic difference. Some differences were small, some were huge, some for the better, some for the worse. But, always, audible. This is going back as far as, carefully applying mortite, to the underside of a turntable platter. Later, applying green paint to the inner and outer edges of cds, and, of course, footers and weights, of all sorts, under, and, on top of, equipment/speakers. The list is endless. The science is less meaningful to me. It is all part of being an audiophile ( and videophile ), because, to the end, we all want to extract more information from our recordings. MrD. |
Well said Mrdecibel. I am in your camp as well.... |
For anyone in N. California, there is a four-tier Star Sound stand available on AudiogoN for local pick-up. $550, I think it is. I'm in S. California or I'd snap it up myself. |
Sorbothane feet (Vibrapods and other things) under everything including my main speakers (not the sub) obviate the need for a fancy rack in my humble (!) opinion. The amp, DAC, everything gets soft rubber feet…my TT came with large hollow rubber feet that do their job…Stillpoints? Don't tell 'em you can use pods of some sort instead and save some bucks…they'll be crushed. |
Wolf_garcia, I'm sorry but about ten years ago, I gave up on all soft or rubberized feet as well as all wood feet. They all lack all prat or toe tapping to the music. There was no leading edge on percussion and certainly no trailing edge.
I love the sense of presence of the musicians and singers. With the above, I hear only elevator music. |
Really surprised to hear that you use sorbothane pucks Wolf. Many years ago, I did as well. I also used special wood blocks. Then came the tip toes, and Goldmund cones.
Anyway, since then, I have moved on to Sistrum supports and Audio Points, and I still use the Goldmund cones beneath my DAC. Just for fun 3 weeks ago, I took them out and replaced them with the Cardas wood blocks. What a difference for the worse!Just as Tbg described. The musuc sounded dull and flat. Reconsider and see if you don't hear a very positive difference.
I would say from my experience that Sorbothane is the worst of all. |
Give Wolf a break guys. He works around live music constantly. Although I am in agreement with you, if he likes the "softer" presentation of sorbothane, so be it. |
No one is attacking him, we're just relaying our own experiences. |
Sorbothane doesn't soften anything sonically, although I can see the weird connection some make to that…it's in the same category as "vegetables that help you because they're shaped like your organs" like cauliflower looks like your brain…illogical results imagined by others (prat…really?) mean nothing to me, damping/draining unwanted vibration from components does…none of this has any effect on the treble content and in fact may sharpen it since there is less unwanted resonance or phase anomalies introduced by sympathetic vibration. My system puts out what goes in…if it's got brightness I hear it fine, if it doesn't it's certainly not due to the tiny rubber feet under my DAC. Certainly others hear things differently and bolting your gear to maple blocks on some "nirvana specific shelving" while driving spikes into the floor may make you think it's gonna drive your toes somehow, but I've seen too much audio superstition to be fooled into adopting much audio silliness. Some maybe, just not much…. |
Wolf,
Damping and draining are 2 different things, and Sorbothane isn't draining to ground as Starsound and some other products do. You may like it, and that is the only thing that matters, but the two technologies work in different ways, and they do not sound the same. |
Wolf, Sorbothane does audibly soften things, as, I choose to use them under certain components. Never under speakers, though. Sorry to disagree with you. MrD. |
I wish that relatively inexpensive sorbethane or soft ball materials worked optimally-- my drawer contains multiple sets of retired Audioquest pucks and various peel n' stick strips. They are effective in quieting noisy DVR hard drives, but in high-end audio they contribute almost as many problems as they solve-- bloating and slurring electronics and TT(e.g. older VPI TNT suspensions). Over the years I've migrated away from it in favor of points and roller balls-- all current Stillpoint models and Star Sound SP-1 and Apprentice platforms. I have a five-shelf Star Sound Rhythm rack on order and am hoping for good things from that.
Personally I've experienced better yield per dollar from high-priced footers and platforms than from high-priced cables. The pricey Rhythm rack may put this proposition to the test... The unanswered question is, is a rack just a rack or is a rack worthy of the respect given to a bona fide audio component? Do four sorbethane pucks make a Vibraplane? |
Roxy54,
I agree that no one is being attacked, we all have our differences based on listening experiences. In my case I've used sorbethane/soft compound products and also Star Sound brass points and then their Apprentice platforms. No comparison in my system, the soft material products were clearly inferior. Two very different tiers of sound quality quite honestly. No doubt however that opinions/outcomes will vary.For me it was an easy distinction to hear.
Charles, |
I agree with all the negative comments on sorbethane, but IMO the variation on that theme from Steve at Herbie's Audio Lab work very well for me . |
Charles1dad, or anyone else, do you include the Herbie's lab variations on the sorbethane theme in the clearly inferior category ? |
Schubert,
I will say that Herbie's were the exception to the rule, they are the best of the soft compound products in my system (by a wide margin). They were out performed by the Star Sound Audio Points regardless of the components compared. I could confidently recommend Herbie's as an example of a good soft material product. The Apprentice platforms move you into a higher realm of sound quality.
Charles, |
07-11-15: Tbg
Wolf_garcia, I'm sorry but about ten years ago, I gave up on all soft or rubberized feet as well as all wood feet. They all lack all prat or toe tapping to the music. There was no leading edge on percussion and certainly no trailing edge.
I love the sense of presence of the musicians and singers. With the above, I hear only elevator music. Very well said. I have used Herbie's stuff and it is modestly effective and affordable. I have also use Equarack footer and those are a step up in performance (and price). They do soften things and if your digital front end or rig is more forward and aggressive they can be used as a form of tone control but at a cost. SS has been my go to product since 2008. I am jealous of u guys who getting the Rhythm stands. Me want but cannot afford right now due to blowing my budget on other things.... |
Thanks 1dad, I have about 15 Herbies tenderfeet , nice to know I'm not totally nuts as I have always thought them to sound good under my CDP, Pre and tuner.
Their real wonder-product is the threaded glider feet to replace speaker spikes .
Unreal improvements underneath both my Meadowlarks and Gallos . |
Some of the posts in response to the OP really suck.
When someone posts their impressions that they have personally perceived and they do so in an honest, sincere manner, it is wrong to call what they are experiencing "garbage". He was not miss-representing a technical fact he was stating his personal impressions. That is what this hobby is all about after all.
You who consider yourselves to be "audiophiles" should know better. This audio passion is almost all about personal impressions and preferences. Posters should feel free to post those personal impressions here on this site without derision. |
Textreme,
Yes, this audio endeavor is overwhelmingly subjective in nature and I just assume an open forum such as this will reflect that point. We can only report our personal impression/experiences and recognize there will contrary opinion.
Charles, |
07-12-15: 1extreme
Some of the posts in response to the OP really suck.
When someone posts their impressions that they have personally perceived and they do so in an honest, sincere manner, it is wrong to call what they are experiencing "garbage". He was not miss-representing a technical fact he was stating his personal impressions. That is what this hobby is all about after all.
You who consider yourselves to be "audiophiles" should know better. This audio passion is almost all about personal impressions and preferences. Posters should feel free to post those personal impressions here on this site without derision. Yes and no. If there is not some objective reality to this hobby, these forums have no point. The fact that there is some consensus here against rubber footers is a neutral fact and not grounds for getting testy. |
1extreme,
As I noted before, the member who made the comment about garbage, Jaxwired, and the member who agreed, Bojack, disappeared rom this thread after their initial attack, apparently unsupported by fact or experience. |
Correction, it was Bojack who called the OP's comments garbage. Jaxwired said that self delusion is a powerful thing. I think envy is as well. |
I don't read any "facts" in this thread. What we have instead is an extremely positive "review" of a product from someone with no Audiogon background followed by a very small number of people repeatedly chiming in with agreement. That's not facts, but simply 3 or 4 people voicing their opinions. Furthermore, when someone disagrees with this limited viewpoint they are met with condescension.
I am not surprised that people who have purchased Star Sound products are very happy with their decision. Their products appear well made and within the audiophile context they are appropriately priced. I merely suggest that there are other effective ways to support your equipment. |
Bloating and slurring indeed! I have insisted that musicians I work with (who perform standing up) wear golf shoes (old school steel spiked ones) or step into clown shoes I've nailed to the floor…the golf shoes tear up the stage…and the clown shoes sound better. Lesson learned. |
07-13-15: Onhwy61
I don't read any "facts" in this thread. What we have instead is an extremely positive "review" of a product from someone with no Audiogon background followed by a very small number of people repeatedly chiming in with agreement. That's not facts, but simply 3 or 4 people voicing their opinions. Furthermore, when someone disagrees with this limited viewpoint they are met with condescension. I have not read any condescension in the dissenting opinions regarding rubber. As for "facts" in the realm of audio, they are few and far between strictly speaking. Much of it is driven by intuition and experience. Believe it or not, Starsound has commissioned an outside lab to do measurements of their technology. No rack company has done that to date. I am consistently surprised how testy people get about this subject (especially when it comes to Sistrum and Starsound). Like it or not but the hobby does evolve and move forward. Look at older magazine reviews of equipment and you see equipment plonked on chairs or the floor. Its akin to the world of cables. "Engineers" cried voodoo for years as they lacked the appropriate measurements tools. Nordost and Vertex have demonstrated changes in jitter performance with cabling using software. The same will most likely be demonstrated with "isolation" technologies, etc.... |
Wonder how the tone of a string instrument would be affected if a small section of sorbothane was placed on the soundboard and the strings were plucked? Tom |
That's very funny Tom. Well done.... |
I'm planning ordering more Rhythm Racks next week. The Rhythms I have under my speakers create the most amazing soundstage I've heard. Better than apprentice rack by a wide margin.
I know this because I listen to both racks under my speakers.
To those who comment without hearing stuff... with no experience, all that is left is unfounded opinions of little or no value. no need to comment.
If one is also adding negative judgments without hearing, it usually some empty soul crying out for attention. Perhaps getting a pet would help them feel better. |
07-13-15: Wolf_garcia
Bloating and slurring indeed! I have insisted that musicians I work with (who perform standing up) wear golf shoes (old school steel spiked ones) or step into clown shoes I've nailed to the floor…the golf shoes tear up the stage…and the clown shoes sound better. Lesson learned. Wolf, a lot of the pro audio crowd thinks audiophila is chalked full of witchcraft and garbage (and that is partially true). Conversely, many recording "engineers" possess equally magical thinking in that their cheapo wire and equipment is somehow impervious to the sonic limitations that many of us philes have experienced. I personally feel that if more recording engineers paid closer attention to some of these details we would have better recordings. As a side note, I had a Charlotte-based recording engineer (Rob Tavaglione) hear my Starsound listening room not too long ago. He was impressed and went on to review one of the smaller Starsound stands for his nearfield monitors. He actually did a comparison between his previous stands( Primacoustics Recoil Stabilizers) which are composed of urethane foam mounted on a steel plate.... |
Some General Rules: when to use squishies as opposed to points:
All audio equipment benefits from damping.
Squishies (ex.: Sorbathane) is useful when vibration is affecting the equipment via the shelf on which the equipment sits. It provides isolation.
Points, such as TipToes or Stillpoints, provide coupling to the shelf or platform on which the equipment sits, and are more useful when the vibration you are trying to control is airborne. Ideally they do not allow vibration to go the other way (they are mechanical diodes). So they are 'sinking' vibration away from the equipment.
So if you have a damping platform you would use a point system to couple your gear to the platform. But the platform might sit on a set of squishies if the shelf it sits on is uncertain.
If you have an equipment stand, generally you would use either points or a platform. Some stands (I use a Sound Anchors stand) have damping properties but you should beware- not all do. Most stereo cabinets (like those from Ikea) and curiously, the Stillpoints equipment stand, have resonant qualities and require decoupling- squishies.
A proper equipment stand with damping properties is usually hard-coupled to the floor using a point system. I use a set of Aurios Pro bearings as they relieve lateral vibrations as well as providing coupling. Prior to their installation I could hear footfalls in the loudspeaker- now they are absent.
These ideas are not new BTW!! My Scully LP mastering lathe was built in the late 1940s and employs a special table equipped with adjustable points for feet. On top of that is perched a damping platform that decouples from the table using a set of squishies. IOW audiophiles did not make this stuff up; its been in use by pro audio for decades longer. So its not bogus or imagination and there are actually rules for their use. If you follow them you will get better results. Wolf isn't nuts and neither are the people riding him. |
Agear, take a look at my post- especially the part about how our Scully lathe was built.
Engineers who poo-poo this stuff have to somehow work out how to get past that... |
The questions should be. How many mechanical improvements can be made to a 65 year old Scully lathe? Tom |
Agear,
What was the result of that comparison? |
Regarding the Pro Audio Crowd, I'm not sure they actually exist relative to opinions that matter about anything beyond food and drinking…I don't know many modern engineers who dismiss good cable and gear, or make aesthetic assumptions regarding things that happen where they are not (other people's things). I've had major dudes from both the recording industry and Audiophilia as neighbors, friends, fellow car, motorcycle, and watch fans, trophy wife collectors, and lawn mower borrowers…and the only opinion I really trust regarding tiny differences in sound, either mixing a live show or listening to playback on anything, are mine. I do enjoy the fact that my comment including clown shoes engendered further comment (!), and although I seem to not care about fancy gear racks (speaker stands are another matter), it's mostly because I don't. My rack has a drawer full of tubes and stuff on the bottom, and I think that's very important…I discovered entirely by accident that my specific speakers in my rig on a wood floor in my house sound much more coherant on vibrapods and butcher blocks that raise the tweeters to the proper height…who knew? |
Ideally they do not allow vibration to go the other way (they are mechanical diodes) Can Ralph, or other knowledgeable members, please educate me on this? Is it a scientific fact that points / cones really act as a mechanical diodes? I have heard this saying since the introduction of the Tiptoe, but have not aware of any prove. Thanks |
I own Apprentice racks and placed them under the tt, pre, both amps and the dac. Installed the Star Sound brass cones under the Maggie T4's. Well worth the investment. They ain't cheap but Robert''s advice was spot on. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the effect can be enhanced with some fine tuning on point of contact under your gear. One point located directly on or near the transformer mounting hardware is really effective. |
