I’ve most likely owned more Klipsch than anyone posting about it as well as much of what’s available I even have some of Paul's RCA test equipment and 1 of his RCA W bins from Klipsch museum many may not know but K horn was inspired and based on Olson's work for RCA. I stand by my entry-level horn comment many heritage owners run-heavy mods Klipsch is cheap and easily available it also floods the used market and Klipsch owners by far out num other type owned and are very vocal in forums due to this. The only Klipsch I could see owning is the fully horn-loaded theater systems many of those are better than audiophile offerings of great cost and it seems are no longer offered since Klipsch was purchased by Harman. But sadly with horns, the audiophile market isn’t offering many worthy of purchase unless you want a hybrid horn and honestly if I had to go that route I would buy a conventional dynamic. If one really wants great horns you have to know a good amount about it and be able to DIY to some degree since even if complete a great sounding full horn system will be in parts that owner must somewhat assemble. And as mentioned one should consider it as a system that includes amps crossovers room etc and all should be matched to each other.
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johnk, I respect your experience, but the way you state what you just said really makes it sound like it’s necessary to assemble rare parts and pieces from all over the place at considerable trouble and expense to have a good sounding horn system, and I have to disagree with that. If we all had the time, money and expertise to do that I’m sure that the results would be great, but the average audiophile like myself can get good results without going to the extreme. |
I appreciate everyone's feedback. It has truly been eye opening and interesting. I have studied each and every suggestion made. While I am no where near to making a decision, I am going to eliminate a few of the recommendations. I have eliminated Klipsch, JBL and any other full box horns. I know they are all great speakers with outstanding sound, however, they will not fit with the design of my new home. I also have a very strong feeling that I will be buying another Tube Amp. So besides, Avantgarde, Odeon, hORNS, Charney, PureaudioProject, please continue to let me know any other suggestions that I should consider, or influence my decision for a particular brand. |
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@willgolf, with regards to the design of your new home, will this music room be a " dedicated " listening room ? A few examples are : dedicated and upgraded electrical, greater wall reinforcement, room acoustic panels, etc. As in real estate : location, location, location. As in audio systems / music reproducing systems : the room, the room, the room. Horn systems have a benefit of creating less side wall reflections, but reflections, slap echoes, bass modes / resonances ( nodes and antinodes ) will all be present, if not dealt with. Obviously, once the speakers are in the room, and the system is set up, fine tuning the speakers location, to the room, and to your listening seats, will likely take some time. Expect some issues, and I am just trying to help, with such a big expenditure. I hope, for your benefit, you have considered this with your room " design ". Think about driving your car on nothing but cobblestone roads ? Just something to think about, if you haven't. Enjoy ! MrD. |
MrD --- i will have a totally separate theater room in my new home which will be acoustically perfect. Unfortunately, my two channel room is a combination great room and kitchen. That is my current set up and the music still sounds incredible. I understand it is not going to be acoustically perfect but I know when I am sitting 15 ft away from the speakers, I will totally enjoy the music. It is also why I have to have the speakers close to the rear wall. |
Balancing aesthetics with sound will always be in play. Room size, amplification and emotional appeal all contribute to the selection. Many knowledgeable people have weighed in on what's right for them, the ultimate determinant is what's right for you. Having recently become part of the JBL 4367 club, I can say that the 70's sound I have been looking for is now in place. I owned a pair of L166 Horizons for over 25 years and have spent the last 15 trying to improve upon them. Klipsch, Triangle, Sonus Faber and Harbeth have all been cycled through the process. The elimination of JBL due to the boxy look is shortsighted. I power mine with a Mac C2300 pre and MC275 power and could not be more pleased. Bob James at low volume is relaxed and precise with a dynamic range that brings the room to life. At volume, they present a percussive side that is akin to Dead & Co at the Hollywood Bowl in full swing. Literally brought tingles to my arms. No sub required, just a two way that is nothing short of amazing. |
Umm....The guy likes the sound of 70's speakers? Is that so hard to grasp? Thats what makes him happy....he doesnt care what makes you happy. Looking at your posts everything is about You You You and its your way or the highway. Well guess what?? JBL Monitors are the obvious choice to get the "70's" sound if thats what your after. These were the speakers used in almost every studio to create the albums from that time period...hence the term "Studio Monitors". So THIS is the sound as was intended at the time of the creation of the music. How do you get more truthful and accurate as that? I have the L166 and they were completely restored to Spec by MILLERSOUND who is famous for their restoration services for vintage speakers. I find them paired with other JBL monitors with better midrange to be a great combination (4312A, 4412 etc). L166 have great highs but definitely leave something to be desired in the mids....to my ears. Im sure the 15K JBL 4367 Horns are amazing. My buddy had them but then upgraded to the AG Duo Mezzo and the 4367 left the building. |
With all the blah blah blah presented by jsautter, in his 200 posts, he does not mention what speakers he owns. I am sure they are wonderful, but, probably a speaker not for everyone. Let’s have it, jsautter ? Let us know what your " benchmark " is, considering, a perfect speaker, does not exist, always having trade offs. |
My main speakers are Ascendo Model Ms. In other rooms I have older Kharmas (due to cheap price when purchased), Phase Techs in the garage and some modified Radio Shack 4 speakers with Lineum tweeters. In fact, the garage would be the ideal location for some horns. In a sense, as an enthusiast, you are only as advanced as the best system you have ever heard. I dont feel it necessary to preface every statement with an "in my opinion" as this is a given. I think that you all need to listen to what johnk says as he certainly to me seems to know the most about horns and speakers from a perspective similar to those that mentored me about this particular speaker design. My list of audio absolutes: 1) analog is better than digital 2) all things equal higher impedance speakers are better than lower impedance speaker and sealed speaker enclosures are better than ported or transmissions lines 3) all things equal first order crossovers are best 4) never mix dynamic low frequency drivers with horns or planar speakers I object to a number of riaa's assertions about JBL Monitors but I will address these at a later time. I will say that listening to recordings mixed on JBL speakers will still sound better through an accurate system that is neutral than through a system that is not. |
I have not heard the PureAudioProject speakers, but I like the looks and I like the concept. I like open baffle speakers, but, if deep bass is a must, I would caution that a relatively narrow open baffle speaker can be expected to roll off in bass response because of out of phase cancellation between the forward moving wave and the back wave. The open baffle woofer speakers that I've heard with somewhat deep bass (not really that deep), had pretty large baffles to reduce front and back interaction. Most recently, I heard a system with twin 18" fieldcoil woofers in a baffle that was about five feet wide. The Shearer systems that Johnk mentioned had baffles much wider than that. |
But sadly with horns, the audiophile market isn’t offering many worthy of purchase unless you want a hybrid horn and honestly if I had to go that route I would buy a conventional dynamicinteresting. What are the problems with Hybrid system like JBL 4429/4430/4367. what are the advantage a full ragne horn system? |
I’d be looking at vintage Altec over Klipsch. I’ve owned all of them and the best are the 500 cycle horn (511) systems like the Heathkit designed Legato and Altec Laguna or A-7 ( Magnificent) Maybe harder to source than Klipsch. Better yet, get the parts and build your own mock up to suit you and your room. Research the different LF systems. 2-15’s sealed, 1 15 in A-7 horn, Onken. Not as hard as you’d think. |
I listened to these yesterday at Listen UP Denver:https://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/en/products/duo-series/duo-xd.htmlThey list for $45k, they were offered to me by Scott Gennaw at $30k. They have been on the showroom floor for about year so I don't know if they are the very latest model. Impressive, but not for me. Tell Scott that Cliff sent you. |
I have just finished reviewing the new Klipsch La Scala AL5 at :https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/134937-klipsch-la-scala-al5/ for a British view of the speakers. |
(by @johnk ) The best horn systems are not the ones you find at audio dealers research horns consider a bit of DIY combinations of the best of vintage and modern are the best performing options. I find there’s merit to this statement. The industry of all this "hifi" is not our affair or business even; we’re the picky consumers (or ought to be), and the industry provides us with the products we deem worthwhile - an important, albeit banal distinction. Still there’s the sense the consumer is sometimes offended on the part of the industry when the latter is deselected by individuals (in favor of DIY offerings, wholly or partly, or specialty/boutique craftsmen) or critical assessment is otherwise placed as if the consumer has somehow gotten infested with the inertia of the hifi industry at large as the steady, and convenient provider. Perhaps modernity is part of this tendency in light of the thinking that holds what’s new is necessarily better, while at the same time being instrumental in keeping the wheels of said industry turning in ever-ongoing consumerism. Mixing old and new, making it a partial DIY-approach (furthering a lack of convenience), potentially very large speakers - all-horns at that as a minority principle, and at prices that may easily break the rule of "you get what you pay for" (or certainly prices that are far removed from the typical high-end realm) - all of which stirs the pot in ways I’m sure to make many an audiophile feel uncomfortable or strangely alienated, for a variety of reasons. Above quote I find expresses a freedom of approach that goes contrary to many a coagulated way in much of hifi; how do we attain some of the *best* sound out there going with horn speakers, size and most everything else be damned. I wouldn’t consider Klipsch unless entry-level. Avantgarde is also entry-level horn with crazy prices. Above quote I believe should be seen in the context of its addressor, not to make it all-relative, and the aspiration sought. Entry-level to one may be perfectly suitable for others, and yet isn’t it a provoking or intriguing thought that what we deem close to sonic excellence may dwarf next to offerings of another kind, not necessarily at elevated price levels yet at the expense, in a sense, of much bigger size. The Shearer horn designs are pretty much the best horns get but they are not small small horns are wrong horns. Would love to get my hands on a pair those Shearer’s in some iteration - we’ll see how that turns out in the future. You want a fully horn-loaded system any ported box is a compromise not really worth having if performance is the true goal. Incorporating all-horns in a domestic environment may be more about a change in mentality (and priority in regards to interior decoration) than whether it’s really sonically feasible. In that light certainly my recommendation would also be to strive for all-horns to really get to know what horns qua all-horns according to their true definition are capable of. That being said I find there are modern hybrid offerings that perform very well in distancing themselves from all-direct radiating solutions in terms of dynamics and yet being quite coherent (in some respects even more so), like JBL’s 4367 (I like them in particular) and 4429. The M2’s from JBL are fancied as well, and PBN Audio looks interesting. From what I’ve read Audiokineses speakers are also fine offerings. |
JBL Monitors are the obvious choice to get the "70's" sound if thats what your after. These were the speakers used in almost every studio to create the albums from that time period...hence the term "Studio Monitors". So THIS is the sound as was intended at the time of the creation of the music. How do you get more truthful and accurate as that?Sorry, this is nonsense. That was the sound that might have been possible in the recording studio at the time, but rest assured if they had better equipment like we have now, they would have used it. Having run a studio in the 1970s (and still run one now) I was only too well aware of how limited JBL monitors were at the time. So we did a lot of headphone listening to get around the limitation of the monitors, and often took the recordings to better systems to see what they actually sounded like. Its never been my experience that any of the LPs of that period sound better when played only on a particular speaker, especially one made in the 1970s. Most speakers of that era had significant breakups and aren't that nice to listen to at volume. The more **neutral** your speaker, the better those 70s LPs sound. I play lots of vinyl from the 1970s at audio shows and they sound great on horn speakers made in the 21st century, no worries. |
Wasnt implying speakers dont sound better today OR that they wouldn't have used it if available back then. For the past 30-40 years I do business with people like Bob Ezrin, Tom Werman, Phil Ramone, James William Guercio, George Marino, Jimmy Iovine....the list is endless. Also with The Record Plant on both coasts, Cherokee Studios, Crystal Sound and dozens of others. Like you stated...they used what was available. No argument there. Certainly not going to piss on all the work (using JBL's) these legendary Producers/Engineers created. |
Here's a pretty good thread on the 70's sound - https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/765626-what-makes-up-quot-70s-sound-quot.html Just the sheer amount of amazing music coming from that decade is what's incredible to me. I thought we would always have that creative surge.. |
@jsautter I heard your speakers several years ago at a show. Very nice. Incredible build quality, and the first horn loaded ribbon ( tweeter ) I have ever seen, or heard. I very much understand why you have them, but, still not my cup of tea, nor do I feel they were worth 40K. YMMV. As far as the large horns spoken about by johnk, ridiculous for the majority of living rooms most of us listen in. A quote from a recent Stereophile review on the Forte !!!s : " Horns have the rare ability to reproduce the note - perfect timing, rhythmic energy, and blood - pulsing impact of the real event ". " With their high sensitivity ratings and low power requirements, horns deliver music faster, with jumpin’ jiminy dynamics at practically every volume level ". Could not have said it better. What many " hybrid " horn systems lack, imo ( and this is a quality I appreciate from many years of listening to other types of speakers, such a Vandersteen, Thiel, Wilson and others ), is this thing called " coherence ". My Lascalas ( tweaked and modified ) do this with uncanny, breathtaking honesty. The bass horn, mid horn and treble horn all work together, unlike, say, a pair of Altec 19s, which are an excellent, competitive speaker with the Lascala ( I owned a few pair in my years ), but have a substantial disconnect between woofer, and the horn. My ears are very sensitive to this. Keep in mind, I would rather own a pair of 19s, over a pair of Vandersteen 3s, whatever series. I just like horns, and have, for over 50 years, and I thank PWK, and his early, and still, excellent designs, for this. Lastly, johnk states he can come up with a killer system for about 2K, being superior to other horn speakers at that price level. I admire and respect johnk, just from the readings here, but I would love to see the plans on this design. I also need to say this. I do not know what speakers willgolf will wind up with, but, based on his " regular " room he has in mind for this 2 channel rig, I doubt, based on years of experience, and listening, that his expensive system, will not be able to bring " me " any more listening enjoyment, than my current rig. I do wish him luck, and I am sure, he will be very happy, as at least, he will own horns. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Here is a recent review of the Forte III which details its shortcomings as well as its strengths. Not your usual "fluff" piece review like most of them.
Due to the Forte III size, I chose to review them in my 15’x19’ living room. After more than a few hours of constant moving the Forte III’s found their sweet spot just 12” out from the rear wall and 7 feet apart. Every room and speaker is different so don’t be afraid to play around. The Forte III’s are all about the big sound, delicacy is not a part of their DNA. It’s about re-creating a big room and these speakers from Arkansas do it well. Blood, Sweat, & Tears “Spinning Wheel” powers its way with sharp percussion. The sheer size of these speakers helps keep congestion to a minimum, as the ending stays clean thru the mash up flutes and other instruments. In a bit of a surprise, the various trumpet solos are quite smooth, not overly intense including when combining the Forte III’s horns and the Peachtree nova150’s class D amplification. Throughout the album, Blood, Sweat, & Tears brass never falls into shrill territory. The best example is “Lucretia MacEvil”. The distinct vocal style of David Clayton Thomas is presented in full detail. |
Providing the big hall sound does mean a tradeoff. Pinpoint imaging is sacrificed along with the single position ultimate sweet spot. Instead, several listeners get to enjoy the concert sound. So don’t worry about moving about the room or tilting your head. It’s all about enjoying music with others. With the treble and midrange horns one would think that the accordion would be a no-go instrument. Listening to “Check It Out” by John Mellencamp dismisses that theory, as the hand organ places itself nicely within the large soundstage. The upper frequencies are sharp, but never irritating no matter which of the three amplification types powered the Forte III’s. Paired with Nelson Pass designed vintage 60wpc Adcom GFA 535ii, the Forte III’s ooze punch and dynamic power. The famous Maxell tape magazine ad comes to mind with guy in the chair and his hair bowing backwards from the speaker’s output. The best musical match of this pairing was surprisingly the various Indigo Girls ballads, especially “watershed”. Both vocals and instrumentation was stunning, with tonality, instrument separation, and vocal harmonies made for a lean-in experience. A few acoustic and small instrumental recordings did demonstrate the Forte III’s limitations. Sade’s vocals lack the warmth and come across with a bit of a honk, even with tube power. The delicate fingering of Sean Harkness acoustic guitar doesn’t have the inner detail of other speakers. The finite symphonic details of “Neptune” from Holst’s The Planets don’t match the Forte III’s wonderful recreation of the concert hall and the ability to hear quiet passages. It’s the consummation of everything, rather than the individual ingredients that make the Forte III’s so much damn fun. Final ThoughtsThe Klipsch Forte III’s are all about the big sound and enveloping the space and listener. If you’re into the absolute finite instrumental detail, the Forte III’s are not for you. The Klipsch experience is enveloping and reminds the listener of what live music is all about. The fact that very little power can make the Forte III’s fill even an immense space makes the speakers’ price tag far more reasonable. If you have a big room and a hankering for rock or larger ensembles, give the Forte III’s a ride, just bring along a BIC lighter to flick! |
Providing the big hall sound does mean a tradeoff. Pinpoint imaging is sacrificed along with the single position ultimate sweet spot.My system does not seem to have that tradeoff. I get pinpoint imaging along with a huge soundstage- the bigger the room, the better. I like to play King Crimson's Islands at shows- the string bass in the first track is very natural and the bass drum later in that same track is quite visceral. The shimmer of the cymbals in ELP's self titled first LP is wonderful- I have a Pink Island copy which is a bit smoother and more lively than the US vinyl. The guitar sound on Yes' The Yes Album (plum label UK Atlantic) is just like the amp is sitting right in front of you. Meanwhile EMI made some impressive classical recordings about the same time- one of them, The Wand of Youth I like to play as a demo of depth, detail and dynamic range (Wild Bears track). So when its a 70s recording, is that just rock or is classical included? Does it matter if its Kraut Rock, British or American? The fact of the matter is speakers have no taste of their own and a good speaker is equally good at rock or jazz as it is classical or folk. The idea that a speaker is especially suited for a certain period or genre of music seems to be one of the bigger myths that exists in audio. |
Mrdecibel1 I would be curious to get your opinion on the Rethm Saadhana (if you have heard them). They have powered bass built in (obviously not horn) but designed to avoid the disconnect and goes down to 18Hz. I find their sound wonderful (but obviously that is my opinion). Did you hear a disconnect? Obviously,, the Rethm would be pricier than your suggestion, but less 'work' as a plug and play so to say. Thanks dseltz |
Tannoy Horns should be on your list to audition if you can live with their vintage looks. I currently own Westminster SEs, and had RHRs before. Both excellent speakers. I had Avantgarde Duos approx 10yrs ago. Mids/highs were really good, I just didnt like the factory subwoofers too much. PBN M2!5 is an interesting speaker. I never heard them, but I have a lot of respect for PBN speakers, and have owned many pairs of their speakers in the past. I wouldnt rule out JBL speakers. People always talking crap about them have no idea what they can build. |
RIAA, this quote I repeated, by the reviewer, Ken, was made prior, to his review of the Fortes IIIs. He happens to like horns, and have reviewed many. Your reviewer did not mention listening to great Jazz players, such as by Thelonious Monk, Miles, Hancock, Brubeck, Oscar Peterson, etc. he was only interested in " cranking them, and although they do crank, that is just one benefit of a horn design. Besides, I can guarantee you, if I ( and some others ) went inside of the Forte IIIs ( by removing the drivers, rear passive, and input panel ), there would be many things that could be done to them, to make them better. I have done so with the original Fortes, the series 2s, the original Chorus and series 2, the 4 models of the Epic series that has been copied by many , and some others, that were built here in the Arkansas plant, and this, of course, includes the Heritage series ( the Klipsch marketing department included the Forte 2, and now the 3, as Heritage models ). Being the old timer Klipsch guy that I am, I need to point out, that the 5 original Heritage series models ( with 4 still in production ), were PWK designs. Roy Delgado was behind all of the other designs. My opinion ( and many others ), of course, is, the Khorn, the Lascala, and the Belle ( no longer in production, because the Lascala outsold it, as well as the Belle used a shorter mid horn ), are worlds apart, superior, to any of the other Klipsch models. I am not speaking of the short lived Palladium series, although, my feelings about my preferred 3 are the same. I know I am making this about Klipsch, but, willgolf will post when he comes closer to a decision. ***** @dseltz, years ago, I heard an earlier, lesser model from the company. However, the current Saadhana seems like a winner, and at a fair price. *****Lastly, I completely agree with Ralph. A speaker, should be able to play " any " kind of music, and " handle " any kind of music, at every desired volume level, from the delicacy of a single violin, or, cannon blasts from the Telarc 1812. And yes, Zep, Floyd, and others, such as mentioned by Ralph. Enough of me ! Enjoy ! MrD. |
As a true pure horn setup you would have to go along way to beat the Klipsch Jubilee with the monster 402 horn lens on top of it. Dynamic bass which only a true horn can give and not at all thirsty for wattage. Any genre of music sounds good with it and I believe they are under $10,000. Klipsch Cinema has some fabulous gear and it might not be as pretty as some would like but if sound is paramount it is the best I have heard. Had a set of three way MCM 1900's and while they might be made for a 600 seat theater played at lower volumes they are eminently suitable for home use. The dynamic presence and articulation is stunning and the sweet spot extremely wide. None of this don't move your head more than a foot or you lose it junk. Remember if you meant what you said about pure horns size is the only way to get that super crisp clean thumping bass. A direct radiator bass bin can't give you the "right there" thump a horn will. You want a kettle drum or Star Wars explosion to rattle your cage go with a horn. Go to the klipsch site and check out the bigger all horn Cinema systems. To make them really sing you will have to bi or tri amp and set them up with DSP to but when you do the Wison etal megabuck dudes you invite over will leave quite distraught. There is nothing to rival a pure horn Klipsch Cinema system. Don't believe me go hear one. Before you buy anything. |
Reading a lot here about Fortes and Chorus and other "Heritage" speakers. Now the Belle and La Scala and KHorn are all horn speakers. The rest of the Heritage line still has direct radiator woofers so they are not pure horn speakers. Those new Jubilees by the way are cheaper then KHorns and sound far better and the KHorns sound better than La Scalas so there is your audio food chain.OP asked about pure horn speakers. |
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook, I don't always agree with your opinions, but I think your review of the Forte III really hit the mark and accurately described their raison d'etre. When you consider what Klipsch delivers in total, they are really quite a good value. Thanks, John |
I found the review refreshing because over 95% of the reviews I read on equipment rarely ever cite music that I listen to. Its almost always Classical, Jazz, female vocals etc and that's not up my alley. This reviewers song selections I know quite well (other than SADE) so I can relate...finally. I just sold some Audio Note AN-E SPX Al-Nico's this week (too polite for Rock) so will probably go bottom fishing this week and pick up a pair of Forte III's to experiment with. At 1/10th the price of the Audio Notes Im not risking much. Don't have room for the larger Klipsch Horns. Will probably pair with my low wattage amps (Audio Note Jinro/Pass XA25/Valvet E2 SE/First Watt Sit-3 Mono's). |
I understand, and completely validate, how wonderful the Jubilee is. However, as I pointed out, they fall into a category of similarity to the monstrous horn speakers johnk was talking about. The projection, presentation, and pressurization ( the 3 Ps ) of these, would be too much in a typically sized room. My Lascalas, at their size and capability, can fill an auditorium. These large horns, such as the Jubillee, in a typical room, would make a piano sound larger than life, and I am not talking about dynamics here. As much as I love their sound, they would simply overwhelm the listening experience, for me, in my current room. I can easily pinpoint, currently, the musicians, on a stage, in a realistic, and proper perspective, from my listening chair. This is, of course, my opinion, given my listening for so many years. I have stated elsewhere, that imaging and sound staging, are not the top priority for me when listening to a sound system. But I do not want to listen to a 60 foot wide piano, as it is simply not realistic for me. If I had a movie theater as a listening room, that would be another matter. With all this being said, if anyone would like to give me a pair of Klipsch Jubilees, or sell me a pair very reasonably, I believe I can modify and tweak them, have fun with them, and make them work in my room, living with the musicians, as being giants, lol. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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they fall into a category of similarity to the monstrous horn speakers
johnk was talking about. The projection, presentation, and
pressurization ( the 3 Ps ) of these, would be too much in a typically
sized room.
" Well monstrous I guess is in the eye of the beholder and anyone can go to the Klipsch cinema site and get exact dimensions to plan by. There are more of these in houses than people might think because they do not overwhelm anything but rather bring stunning big stage realism to even moderate sized rooms. You control the volume and if you want it stupid loud you can go there. If you want striking fidelity at any level loud or quiet you can go there too only it adds presence smaller speakers and half horn and half direct radiating speakers only dream of. Before Paul Klipsch died these were being developed as the next stage after the KHorn. Subsequently they made it only to the Cinema line we Klipsch guys figure because they are twice the sound of KHorns and half the price. Pro speaker buyers are a lot more fussy about price combined with superior sound for that price. About that 60' piano. Sounds good but in reality if the recording has the piano centered in the room so will the Jubilees and crap recordings might give you a 60' sound stage good ones give you a regular piano with precision. OP before you let people fill you full of their opinions on why things like Jubilees WONT work go to the klipsch forum and find out why they will work from people who have done what you want to do. If you are really seeking sound and not status you simply can't ignore what horns bring to the table. Projection and presentation and pressurization making these unsuitable is nonsense. Talk to those who have done it and see what they have to say. You pass the idea up of a pure horn system you will regret doing so if you ever hear anything like those Jubilees. |
mahlman, I know you, from the " bay ", as I recognize those huge full range horn speakers in ur warehouse. Place them in a 15 by 20 room, a standard sized listening room for many, and yes, they would be overwhelming, both visually, and acoustically. Now, knowing who you are, I can understand your viewpoint. I still disagree, as I do feel the speakers, in relation to the room size, are quite critical, and my many years of professional system design and set up, tells me that. We are all entitled to our opinions, have different experiences, and ultimately, our goals in a system. If the room was large enough, and the listening seat were further from the horns than norm, I might see them working. Again, I am not stating they aren't amazing. I am simply saying, " I " would want a larger listening area, and a further distance between them and my listening seat. Your last paragraph makes it sound like I was trying to talk the OP out of purchasing horns, which I am not. Your aluminum tweeter housings ( as well as your wooden ones ) for the Klipsch Lascalas, are very interesting. I am wondering if Roy Delgado would feel the Jubilees would work in a 15 by 20 room. Sorry if I offended you. Enjoy ! MrD. |
If anyone is interested I have just finished reviewing the Klipsch La Scala AL5s (the new ones) at: https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/134937-klipsch-la-scala-al5/ A UK view. |
60 foot sound stage LOL sounds to me like someone has no experience with large horn systems. I sit in my office listening to a community leviathan system in nearfield low level rooms 14x17 it images wonderfully massively low in distortion interacts little with walls floor etc has a normal soundstage like a normal speaker would as do my Shearers my giant RCA front horns my electronluv horns my WE horns etc etc all just reproduce music in a natural real way. I just don’t get why state absolutes when you have never experienced what you say all big horns do? I can understand size issues but the rest is just uninformed bias. |
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook please report back after you get the Forte III's your listening impressions. I really intrigued by these it seems some of the reports are very good and others can't seem to get the setup to sound right. I used to own KG4's and Chorus I's back in the 80's and enjoyed them unfortunately never heard them with tubes as nobody I knew had tubes nor did any of the locals shops sell them. |
@georgesallit325 -- If anyone is interested I have just finished reviewing the Klipsch La Scala AL5s (the new ones) at: https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/134937-klipsch-la-scala-al5/ Well-written, and very positive review of the La Scala AL5's, George. Being a UK-based Wigwam scribe, have you by any chance listened to Simon Mears Audio Uccello's? |
"
Place them in a 15 by 20 room, a standard sized listening room for many,
and yes, they would be overwhelming, both visually, and acoustically.
Now, knowing who you are, I can understand your viewpoint.
" LOL yeah they are not real esthetic I have to admit. I find that I listen to music quite often at 70 to 80db though so it is not like I have them thumping a lot. Way to easy to harm your hearing. I went through a lot of speakers to get to this point though including many La Scalas. I have four sets in the shop right now in various stages of restoration so I am quit familiar with them. What started my love affair with bigger was a set of KP-450's which were a two way system with two 15" woofers and a fairly large horn with the 1132 driver on them. The sound was so compelling and so superior to La Scalas that I never looked back. People that have owned both the next generation which was the KPT-456, which sounded even better, and KHorns, which as you know is better than La Scalas, prefer the KPT-456's. Problem with older used gear is they are quit scarce and you can look today for these and find KHorns or La Scalas most every day. But not the KP or KPT's because once the movie theaters sell them off and they get into private hands they stay there and are not sold again except between friends from what I see. What I have really been seeking over the years was something that could play classical organ music like Toccata and Fugue in D Minor just like I was there in person. I wanted to hear and feel it just like real life. But then also play Cello or bagpipes or classical rock or blues just like I was there too. It is amazing how many low five string bass notes people have no idea even exist in music because their system cant play that low or big kick drums. And yes large horns deliver the crispest most precise tight bass out there along with punch you can feel and direct radiating speakers don't. Although I have to admit the KPT 456 came somewhat close but with muddier sound. I went to Metropolis Outfitters in Paducah KY once because Cory had the new La Scala III's and a Jubilee with the 402 horn on top in his sound rooms. The La Scalas looked really nice but paled into insignificance compared to the Jubilees. Now the La Scalas III's are as good a speaker as many will ever hear since they have gone to 1" sides and the resonance problem is gone. Problem is there is just so much more that can be had for the asking. I can tell you flat out though that big speakers do not overwhelm rooms and there are guys on the Klipsch forum with those fabulous MCM 1900 systems in their houses along with Jubilees. I have personally sold 10 sets of KP450's and KPT-456's to home owners and they are for 200 seat theaters and they love them. Kind of industrial looking for sure but the detail and superior listening experience at any volume just works in any room. If you are ever near southern middle Tennessee you are welcome to stop in and hear them just PM me. " A lot of love for Klipsch speakers on this thread. Hmmmm, I wonder why there are so many for sale on the US audio mart website? " Might be because there are 33,000+ forum members and who knows how many buyers of Klipsch so yes they do show up and don't last long unless grossly over priced. " 60 foot sound stage LOL sounds to me like someone has no experience with large horn systems. I sit in my office listening to a community leviathan system in nearfield low level rooms 14x17 it images wonderfully massively low in distortion interacts little with walls floor etc has a normal soundstage like a normal speaker would as do my Shearers my giant RCA front horns my electronluv horns my WE horns etc etc all just reproduce music in a natural real way. I just don’t get why state absolutes when you have never experienced what you say all big horns do? I can understand size issues but the rest is just uninformed bias. " 100% agree. Looked up that horn and it looks like they were thinking like Danley but years earlier. I would like to hear those some day. Near field indeed LOL! |
@georgesallit325...nice review, as you posted it earlier on this page. @johnk. We obviously listen differently, and want, and enjoy, different things. This was apparent when we had a debate between Lascalas and Altec 19s. I have owned a pair or two of 19s ( and modded many ), and I prefer the Lascala. I am " sensitive " to many hybrids ( a non bass horn ), as I hear the transition between the woofer section and the horn, and a lack of speed and finesse, with many of these bass sections, of some hybrids. I know you hear this, but maybe, you do not care about it. As far as large horn hybrids, or large full range horns ( the ones you speak about ), of which I have heard plenty, particularly many of the Klipsch KPT series, I prefer some distance, between them, and I. There is no discussion, or argument, here. This is what " I " prefer, and that is all. My perception of many of these units, when I am listening too close, is not a presentation that I feel is real, correct, or enjoyable. Again, this is me. You can rant all you want about me being wrong, as it does not matter to me. I do not need to explain how I developed my listening biases, nor defend them. I simply know what I like, and again, this is what matters. So, my take away from all of this, is that you, and Malhman, feel you both are correct, and that I am just plain wrong. So be it. 50 years in the high end audio industry, much time around live, un-amplified music, 50 years around, and a fan of, horn speakers, and, my ears have developed with a knowing of what I like. I also had, and still have, the ability for me, to help listeners create sound systems in their homes. And, guess what, johnnie boy. Not all of my customers, acquaintances, or friends, prefer horns. Although I do, I respect them all, and never judge them for what they prefer, and enjoy. Many people in this industry, seem to forget this very important point. We are all different. @willgolf. I know this is your thread. I do apologize for any thing I might have stated out of line, with you. My only advice for you. Try and listen to everything you can, before you buy, and, if possible, to listen in your new room. Yes, I am a Klipsch guy...Enjoy ! MrD. |
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I am wondering if Roy Delgado would feel the Jubilees would work in a 15 by 20 room. Sorry if I offended you. Enjoy ! MrD.
" No not offended at all I just think people get cheated out of some systems because they don't realize how they really function. Met Roy at the last Klipsch gathering and here is a bit of Klipsch history for you. A select group of speaker owners were invited to Klipsch to preview the Jubilee and none of them were, as far as I know, professional sound stage guys representing theaters or industry. Claude and Coytee on the Klipsch forum were two of them and still active there and they probably would fill you in on the details if you go there and ask. Suffice it to say Roy would approve of their use anywhere I believe. It was the last speaker he and Paul Klipsch worked on together so it has a place in his heart. Would he say so in public since Jubilees are far more sound than KHorns at half the price? We think this is why the Jubilees are kept industrial looking so as to not compete with the much more refined appearance of veneered boxes. Plus it is pretty hard to make the 402 horns on top of them pretty with zero WAF. My main goal in pushing these horns is based on the food chain many of us waste our time and money on. We keep spending a little more looking for that great audio and then go through way to many sets before we find what we were looking for. I had to waste a lot of time and money before I had ever heard my first real good 2" horn driven pro speaker and I just wish someone would have shown me those when I first became interested in Klipsch. By the way, if anyone reads up on those Super MWM's the 3D or 2D files are freely available to anyone who wants to build a set for personal use. This is not permission to start making these for profit. |
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My only advice for you. Try and listen to everything you can, before you buy, and, if possible, to listen in your new room
" The best possible advice you can get. You might not get them in your room but find someone who has what you are interested in and listen first and also find out how they feed them to get them to sound right if you like them.. |
Larger horn systems may be hard to blend into the decor of multi-use rooms and smaller rooms, but, they do not inherently sound out of place in small rooms. To me, they are so much better than most speaker types as low volume that their biggest strength is playback at low volume in small venues. Yes, they will do loud, but, they are even better at doing soft (they still sound alive). Whether this is in the nature of the horns themselves, or the low-powered amps that can be used with these high efficiency speakers (I am guessing both are factors), it remains the case that it is somewhat harder to find non-horn based systems that are so lively at low volume (old quad 57 electrostatics come to mind as contenders). |
Being a UK-based Wigwam scribe, have you by any chance listened to Simon Mears Audio Uccello's? Yes, they were at one of our annual enthusiasts' shows. I thought they were very good. Not as lively as the La Scalas and may be more suited to classical/jazz but still very much in the room. Mr D...whoops overdone the enthusiasm. But I did like the speakers a lot and as they are hand made in the US thought the UK's cross Atlantic cousins may be interested.Speakers not for the chin-stroking studiers but they do make you want to get up and dance. And in my case, not a pretty sight but I did not care. |