I am looking for your feedback on what Horn speakers I should consider in the $15k-$40k price range. Please describe the rationale for your recommendations.
Some ideas about hybrids and other horn system, and coherence.
Almost every horn system have dynamics, and gives more "flesh and blood" than classical "box speakers". but... As said @mrdecibel, coherence is essential. To my opinion, THE point to accomplish when making a speaker. Coherent speaker are not so frequent , and coherent horn systems are...very rare :-D Even if i do not close my eyes, i want to forget how many speakers/horns are playing. I want to hear musicians between the speakers, not treble / medium / bass horn
With any hybrid horn speaker, there is ALWAYS a mismatch. Even with the best (even those i made years ago :-D ), even perfectly crossed and time aligned, the mismatch is in dynamics behavior, or "speed" feeling, or tone. One can be easily blown away by his first listening experience with this kind of horn system. To be still in love with it weeks, months, and years later is another story !
About La Scala and comparable speakers : Properly used they can be enjoyable...well, exhilarating speakers ! They are very compact for their efficiency too, and affordable. Many good reasons to by and keep them...But i am not found of the horn association : For me it is a bass horn with a medium horn. Who is supposed to reproduce the low mid ? male voices ? cello ? A 15" speaker cannot do that properly, moreover in a folded horn. An heavily truncated 500 Hz acoustical cutoff horn neither.
When testing a horn system, it is unnecessary to play "boom-boom-kss-kss" music (rock&roll, many jazz trio, and of course audiophile drum records) : this will be fun and probably good. Most of the problems will occur playing voices, or string quartet. Play them to point out mismatch between the horns, crossover issues, phase shift, blur in sound stage (when it is not image overlays :-D. )...
For all those reasons, when i do not listen a perfectly voiced full horn loaded system, i play a simple full range in open baffle. For coherence :-D
Seems many who have a horn bias have never heard a proper set. Since many of the things, they insist all horns do I never hear out of a proper setup full front loaded horn system. My horns systems disappear when on. Music sounds real whole complete and in realistic space not emanating from a source. I don't get overly large image size I'm not limited in any way on music type or SPL even very low SPL. I can and do fit large horns in small and average spaces and get great results seems I'm not alone in that lookup Japanese horn systems. I can do that with almost any type of loudspeaker. I just don't get why simple system set up and synergy eludes so many in this hobby. Still, no-one can like all things we like what we like and this is a hobby so have at it and enjoy it. But if you just are offended by the very idea of large loudspeakers you will most likely not enjoy a horn. If you enjoy massive SS amplification a horn might not be best. But if you're looking for near realistic sound something you can use all day without fatigue ability to sound great at high or low-levels propulsive force= the feeling of wanting to move your body, visual appeal [subjective I know] but I do get many + comments on my many horns people like to touch them take pics etc not so much with my Harbeths-then a horn may well be worth considering. I mentioned before best to learn as much as you can before going horn because if you do it right it might be the last loudspeaker pair you buy since another benefit of horns is the don't go obsolete quickly can be upgraded repaired in the field. And many hold their value or even increase in such. Good luck.
"Seems many who have a horn bias have never heard a proper set. Since
many of the things, they insist all horns do I never hear out of a
proper setup full front loaded horn system. My horns systems disappear
when on.
Music sounds real whole complete
and in realistic space not emanating from a source. I don't get overly
large image size I'm not limited in any way on music type or SPL even
very low SPL. I can and do fit large horns in small and average spaces
and get great results seems I'm not alone in that lookup Japanese horn
systems. I can do that with almost any type of loudspeaker. I just don't
get why simple system set up and synergy eludes so many in this hobby." You are 100% right. When people start chiming in with things like Fortes when the OP asked for all horn systems you have to wonder what people even think all horn systems are. Mine is a two way system that goes from 18khz to 27hz. The bass bin is a derivative of the MCM 1900 MWM modified to be deeper and taller and is 60" wide at the mouth and 60" deep and 106" of travel from the woofer cone to the mouth of the horn. The Klipsch 402 horn lens crosses over at 500hz and goes to 18khz. Center to center they are 17 feet and I sit back from them normally at 12 feet or so. By listening to what many have for room size this is not out of the norm. The DB meter tells me that my favorite level is generally around 80 so I don't have these things loud most of the time. But when I do it is chest thumping perfect fidelity that is possible only with a horn. These two ways just disappear and the sound quality will raise goose bumps on your arms at times and all you horn nay sayers just have no idea what you are missing. All these negative comments on horns just tell me there are a lot of people who simply have never heard a set but they can tell you all about what they can't or won't be able to do. Anyone near southern middle Tennessee is welcome to stop in and hear for yourself. PM me and we can go from there. Twist my arm real hard and i will stop my day to listen to music;)
I attended the 2019 Munich high end show. Horn speakers were everywhere! I think all major and many minor brands were present. I auditioned many of them, and enjoyed the Avantgarde speakers most of all - I ended up going to their booth several times. They had the Duo Mezzo and Uno Fino models on demo. I later found a dealer where I could audition more comprehensively, and ended up acquiring the Duo XD model.
OK correct me if I am wrong but going to the Avantgarde site I see this speaker has two woofers for the sub section but no horn for them. So if this is a cabinet sub and not a horn once again someone does not understand what was asked by the OP. Namely a pure horn set up. People it is plain and simple. Horn subs, true horn subs can't be small to produce the sound. A true full range horn system with good or better bass will not fit into these silly fru fru ultra modern cool looking designs. The very smallest commercially available worthwhile hi fidelity all horn full range speaker I know of is the Klipsch Jubilee. It is not however pretty like this Duo thing might be but it IS all horn.
As the OP, how I started on this adventure was because I heard the Avantgarde Uno Fino. I had never heard any horn type speaker before. That prompted my question and the wonderful learning experience from reading everyone's post. I am embarking on building a modern house. Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be totally happy.
There are two different kinds of 15" + horn hybrid speakers.
The first group - 15" drivers optimized to play from mid-bass to lower mid-range. For example older Altec 15" driver like: 803a/b, 515, 515B, 604 Hollywood/B/C/E. These drivers have great speed, tone and texture in a male vocals and cello range. But they don’t play a deep bass. They good for vocals, classical and jazz music.
The second group - more modern 15" drivers built for rock and roll and electrical bass. Like later Altec drivers: 416, 604K and most of JBL drivers used in speakers like: L300, 4430. These drivers play deep and powerful bass but flat in a male vocals and cello range.
For example, I heard JBL L200, L300 and 4430. The older model belongs more to the 1st goop, L300 and 4430 belong to the 2nd group.
Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So
if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end
of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be
totally happy.
@willgolf In that case you really owe it to yourself to check out the Classic Audio Loudspeakers. They tick all the boxes nicely!http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com
^^ Duke has always made excellent speakers- IMO/IME part of being excellent is being easy to drive! Amps just make less distortion when things are easy :)
As the OP, how I started on this adventure was because I heard the Avantgarde Uno Fino. I had never heard any horn type speaker before. That prompted my question and the wonderful learning experience from reading everyone’s post. I am embarking on building a modern house. Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be totally happy.
It’s difficult to assess what you’re really going for here. What’s the restricting factor considering your future speakers - aesthetics more than size per se, re: "fit(ting) our decor"? And what sonic qualities in particular from named Avantgarde speakers was it that you liked and made you want to investigate further?
Even horn hybrids can take up space, but not too few of them thrive on being placed rather close to the back wall, thereby taking up limited floor area and "stealing" less into the listening/living room. Certainly this would open up the possibility for a range of speakers size-wise, even including a few all-horn options like the Klipsch La Scala’s (Jubilee’s, perhaps, but a stretch), Volti Audio Vittora’s and Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, but for reasons not entirely clear you already ruled out Klipsch, so let’s forget about those options.
What about Volti Audio’s horn hybrid Rival’s? In this size class (almost) there’s the PBN 2!5’s as well. Classic Audio Loudspeakers have been mentioned, and I can only imagine they sound wonderful, but will they fit the budget at no more than $40k (question aimed at @atmasphere )? They aren’t small either, but the beautiful cabinetry could make up for it and have them pass for furniture, which is so rarely seen with loudspeakers today (with wood that actually looks, feels and even smells like wood and isn’t lacquered to death, although this may be an undesirable physical trait in a more typical, modern home). Duke’s Audiokinesis speakers seem to fit both size and budget, and by all accounts sound very good. Or how about looking into some of Oswalds Mill Audio’s smaller models like the Mini’s and Monitor? They’re expensive, but sport beautiful, old school cabinet work, great pro drivers and supposedly excellent sound quality.
I understand the considerations in regards to interior decoration, but if you’re really into sound reproduction let your speakers be a main priority in the allotted space they’re given - with the adherence to form-follows-function as far as it goes, and not vice versa. As it often happens, to my eyes at least, the really interesting physical shape of speakers comes via an uninhibited accordance with their function as dictated by physics. Even a much smaller, typical slender square box speaker can be seen as an outright nuisance in a home setting because it’s just that: a tall, rectangular square box oftentimes finished in a rather sterile manner, and one that’s placed well into the room, at that.
Quite easy to understand. The OP has a modern aesthetic house - Voltis don't come near to fitting in with that decor. Same issue with Classic Audio, etc.
I think in his price range, looks count. I feel the exact same way.
Quite easy to understand. The OP has a modern aesthetic house - Voltis
don't come near to fitting in with that decor. Same issue with Classic
Audio, etc.
@keithr @blindjim
We're doing mid-century modern in our house and the Classic Audio Loudspeakers fit in quite nicely.
If i were doing a mid century modern, Volti, Audio Kinesis, Classic Audio would all fit, but I am not. Right now it is down to Avantgarde, hORNS Universum or Symphony and Pure Audio Project. Others could be added.
Curious, then why don’t speaker manufacturers do this? Wouldn’t they want their gear to sound the best possible?
@rockadanny
Honestly, I think they are pushing to go 4 ohms and lower to give the appearance of the speaker being easy to drive because generally speaking, as impedance goes down, sensitivity (as a measurement) goes up. The problem is sensitivity isn’t the same thing as efficiency, and with tube amps in particular efficiency is a much more usable specification/measurement! Beyond that, my opinion is they often haven’t made the connection between distortion on the spec sheet vs. what they hear. That increased distortion is audible as increased brightness and harshness.
John Atkinson’s eye-popping measurements of the Klipsch AK6 speakers in the September 2019 issue of Stereophile show that we have come a long ways, baby; but Klipsch has not.
I think you would be doing yourself a favor if you purchased a moderate size horn and accompanied it with a pair of the Wilson Beseech Torus infrasonic generators. They are breath taking, fast and very deep and extremely musical as well as accurate. To get a horn to go that low and be that fast is really difficult. In addition and it is no small mater with the Torus you will be happy using them with any main speaker you ever buy.
soundsrealaudio....will on Torus work? There has not been much news online since 2007 on this item. Are you a dealer? How much are they now including the amp?
+1 for Volti. I was pretty impressed with those when I heard them, and I really enjoyed talking with the designer and builder (Greg Roberts) at Lone Star Audio Fest. He managed to make those speakers sound very good in a small hotel room, and they are clearly meant to shine in a larger space. I would reach out to them and you'll likely get to speak with Greg directly. If you're into high efficiency horns in that price range, I think just hearing his input directly would be worth your time, even if you go a different way.
Wilson Benesch Torus retail for $12,900 with the amp/crossover. I am not a dealer the distributor is Aaudio Imports in Colorado. If that is too rich for you blood I would suggest a couple of small diameter subs, say 8" or 10" so they would be fast enough to keep pace with horns.
"I understand the considerations in regards to interior decoration, but
if you’re really into sound reproduction let your speakers be a main
priority in the allotted space they’re given - with the adherence to
form-follows-function as far as it goes, and not vice versa. As it often
happens, to my eyes at least, the really interesting physical shape of
speakers comes via an uninhibited accordance with their function as
dictated by physics. Even a much smaller, typical slender square box
speaker can be seen as an outright nuisance in a home setting because
it’s just that: a tall, rectangular square box oftentimes finished in a
rather sterile manner, and one that’s placed well into the room, at
that." Precisely right and much of the speaker world, no let me restate this to 95% of the "high end" speaker world is form before function and then trying to make them to work well within the physical parameters of the pretty, avant-garde or techno-artisto box. OP wants pretty and decent sound which I can understand is the choice of most but when I close my eyes I want to pretend I am truly in one of the best seats in the live performance. I want spectacular sound and looks just don't matter.
Mahlman....trust me, I will not sacrifice sound for looks. How I got on this horn search to begin with was hearing the Avantgarde Uno Fino. That was the first horn I heard and in the same room I heard, Meridian, Eggleston, Vivid, Stenheim Alumine, Vandersteen. My wife and I both loved the sound of the Avantgarde better than any of the other speakers. I was shocked that my spouse would accept the look of the horn.
I am going to listen to the Avantgarde Duo in October. IMO they are overpriced but we will see. I still like the hORNS Universum and the Symphonies. I just had an opportunity to buy a used pair of Cessaro Liszt for an unbelievable price but at 980 pounds a piece, I just thought that would not work in my room.
The biggest question I have now as I am about to embark on building my new house is, should I add to in wall subwoofers. Even if I don't use them at least I have them ready. With Horns being so fast, I would need a very good subwoofer. My wife has laid the law down and said they have to be be in wall subs like I have in my current house.
Also, beauty is a matter of opinion. What might be a great looking speaker to me may be ugly to others. So, if I can find great sound and good looking speaker, then I am a happy camper.
"So, if I can find great sound and good looking speaker, then I am a happy camper. " Absolutely and if you can do this you can't ask for more. If you find something that meets these standards in your eyes that is what matters. In my search for my audio standards to be met I could not find what I wanted and ended up building what has turned out to be in most eyes a visual klunker no doubt, but the sound is amazing and it is produced by the laws of physics in which best functional form can't be evaded. Properly done pure horns systems are unbeatable by any direct radiator systems and they do this by correct audio producing shape which can be done no other way. Side benefit to horns is also super efficiency and you don't need lots of power to run things. It is a shame this forum does not allow for pictures. It was mentioned to me that a build thread would be interesting and there were not enough of them here but I can see why. Can't post build in progress pictures nor finished results nor can you post actual measured audio results for people to see so it ends up being talk and no evidence. Can't post REW or TrueRTA graphs showing the benefit of doing things certain ways nor can anyone share screen captures of active digital settings that would work with Xilicas to balance and time align systems.
The biggest question I have now as I am about to embark on building my new house is, should I add to in wall subwoofers. Even if I don’t use them at least I have them ready. With Horns being so fast, I would need a very good subwoofer. My wife has laid the law down and said they have to be be in wall subs like I have in my current house.
If what you’re about to embark on, at least as an outset, is a horn hybrid solution like the Avantgarde Uno Fino’s, then you’ve already "welcomed" the switch from horn mids/top to direct radiator in the band below in the main speaker, with all that entails sonically. To mitigate any discontinuity that would invariably exist in such a pairing within the mains - you and your wife’s appreciation of them notwithstanding - adding a pair of subs in a proper fashion could improve overall coherency; "proper" being high-passing the mains somewhere between 80-100Hz with a quality digital cross-over to the subs augmenting below, in which way you’d free the direct radiators of the Duo Fino’s from low frequency content - with significant gains to be had in the range above (to better meet with the horns here).
With an in-wall subs solution you’re facing some interesting options that should include horns variants or other hidden-driver approach, so that only the mouth area is visible. Now, even though what I’m about to quote and link to is only meant as an inspiration, I wouldn’t recommend your wife read and see the following.. ;) Taken from the opening post of a build thread over at Avsforum:
I figured I’d start a new thread instead of mooching off of the other threads with my questions... I have started my build for the two Gjallarhorns designed by Ricci - thanks for sharing the plans Josh! I’m building these for my 2700 cu ft living room that we use for watching movies, listening to music, entertaining, etc. Not really a "true" HT because it’s the main room of our house and there are several different openings to the room, two windows, sliding glass door, vaulted ceiling, fireplace. The goal is to have this room +10 on WAF by looking like a "normal room," but with ninja-stealth, bone crushing sound coming from the shadows.
I chose the G-horn because it’s output of sheer terror down to 15hz, which is as low as I care about, below 15hz doesn’t do anything for me. I like to turn it up to 11, and have a history of destroying my drivers because of my generosity toward the volume knob, but also because this living room is difficult to pressurize. These will be placed in the attic, behind the vaulted ceiling and firing through to the room from the front and rear left side corners. As soon as these are finished and tested, demo on the room begins for our remodel, subs get hoisted up to the attic for placement.
Today I had the opportunity to listen to JBL 4367's. They sounded good but not a game changer or one that I would put on my finalist list. I thought the bass was lacking and voice clarity not as good as Avantgarde. They were driven by a Class A Ayon Triton amp.
Hey , WillGolf If you could blind demo all horn speakers at the same time , without knowing which ones you were hearing and decided the Klipsch were the most satisfying , would you buy them and call it a day ?
Dromme....I wish it were that easy. The hardest part of my journey is hearing a speaker today that sounds good and then in three weeks you go listen to another speaker. It is hard to remember the differences in sound from the different speakers over time. In answer to your question, as I have said many times in this thread that looks are important. Whatever speakers I choose will not be in a dedicated listening room but will be a focal point in my great room. If all of my choices were in the same room and I was blindfolded and Klipsch sounded the best, I think my spouse would acquiesce to my desires but she would not be happy. So, yes I would buy them and save a ton of money. But a happy wife is a happy life....so I am told LOL.
That's a tough place to be in for audio quality and you have my sympathy. Hope you find something she likes and produces great audio too. I never told my wife this but this ordeal of building a new house and having to deal with the spouse during the process is why we will never have a new house. I get some say in what happens too or it does not happen.
Finding showrooms or willing owners to audition can be hard to do. Forums are a great place to find owners and I would rather go to someones house where they have dealt with setup and rooms and do not have magic salesman snake oil going on.
The Volti Vittoria looks nicely made and would be a fun speaker to work with. I would get two bass cabinets though. There remains a phase/time issue between the drivers. It seems only Avantgarde addresses this by staggering the drivers but the Trios make a staggering presentation that would own any room. If you've ever seen them in person they are big! It would take a really slick guy to get these by the wife. I showed a picture to my wife and her response pretty much killed any inclination I had toward trying a set.
I strive for top quality sound but I don't want my sitting room to look like an audio lab. It's not just the wife who cares but me, too. Everything has compromises somewhere.
dromme - hardly....at the budget I am talking about I sincerely doubt the sound quality or function as you say will be compromised. Have you compared Avantgarde versus Klipsch or JBL? Are you open minded to Odeon, hORNS, Avantgarde, Anima?
@willgolf - I was looking at hifishark.com and it showed a listing date of Aug. 31, 2019. Don’t know how accurate those dates are. (Do a search from the hifishark main page - and listing dates are shown on the right of results) Maybe worth sending an email - establish a dialogue - to check on validity of seller too.. Another thing besides any shipping concerns - are the powered subs fed by 220v vs 110v. Good luck and keep us posted.
I have a short list of horn speakers I am interested in. The only ones I have not seen mentioned in this thread are from Viking Acoustics. They are in the US. You may want to check them out.
I heard the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo horn loudspeakers at this years Axpona show. They sounded and looked spectacular to me. Up there with MBL for the best sound at the show. Claimed efficiency is 107 dB/W! No problem filling any room with dynamic sound using a modest amplifier.
The Cornwall (can be used in a CORNer or against a WALL) is essentially a big Heresy and a great sounding loudspeaker. I desperately wanted a pair when I was 17 but could only afford the Heresys. It has less of a phase problem than the K horn and I think images better. Today I would plug the port and use a subwoofer.
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